Rolling the Pacifier and Firstborn Syndrome

[HystericalParoxysm]

What the heck is rolling the pacifier? What causes all my sim kids to look the same? What is firstborn syndrome? Someone explain all this stuff!!!

Oh wait, we have!

Game Guide:Pregnancy (http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=Game_Help:Pregnancy)

Definitions, info, what to do, why to do it, and all the shiny details you could want!

Got more info on rolling the pacifier, or questions on it? Post them here! Just remember to check the guide to see that your tip/question isn't already covered.

[Moon Dragon]

If you hadn't mentioned concepts I'd never heard of I never would have read the pregnancy guide. I never knew about half the stuff written there. Thanks for pointing it out.

[.:MileyTiger:.]

Thanks, that really helps with the idendtical twins thingy :)
I never knew what 'Rolling The Pacifier' or 'Firstborn Sindrone' was :)

[TRIriana]

This was really helpful! I was getting annoyed when my newborns were looking very similar to siblings - now their features do reflect mixes of family members past, and not just one.

[chloechloe03]

wow, no wonder all my sims look the same and boring, im going to start 'rolling the pacifier' from now on, too bad my CAS takes FOREVER to load =[

[BlackVelvet]

Is it just me or does 'Rolling the Pacifier" sound vaguely obscene? It is just me isn't it? ;)

[markusrandall]

hahaha...it does

[fway]

Don't Forget that Sims Can Get Pregnant in the Sauna with Bon Voyage.

[oceanborn_SC]

I've heard that the firstborn syndrome thing was fixed after Seasons but I don't have seasons installed right now. I downloaded the lot debugger some weeks ago and I love how each child come out with different looks and personality. I started to realize something was wrong when the Schaffer family had 5 kids (2 boys and 3 girls) who looked exactly the same with different hair and eyecolours! I ended up keeping my favourite boy from the family and deleted the rest.

[slice_SC]

Wow, I had no idea about the First Born Syndrome thing.

[annachibi]

Oh man, all my sims' latter children have the same personality! No wonder! That was really beginning to bug me. :lol: Thanks for that, HP!! *big hugs*

[Lemon&Lime]

If you're playing the game and can't go into CAS - what is it that you do again to avoid the syndrome?

[L3w1s]

load another lot before loadign the lot that has the female you want to get pregnant. or load the lot, leave, then load again.

[HystericalParoxysm]

No, that won't do it, L3w1s.

http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=Game_Help:Pregnancy#Rolling_the_Pacifier_and_Firstborn_Syndrome

If, for some reason, you don't wanna go through CAS you'll need to use Pescado's lot debugger.

[Lemon&Lime]

I can't go back to cas after I have created the family though can I?

[Daisie]

Figgi, you don't need to go back to that particular family in CAS - just save their lot, exit to the neighborhood, enter CAS, and follow one of the procedures spelled out in the tutorial above (linked by HP), using random sims. ;)

[Lemon&Lime]

Oooo I understand it now.

Gosh, this makes me realise just how complicated the Sims2 really is. The amount of specialised knowledge you need! This makes Sims3 even more scary O.O

[HystericalParoxysm]

Well, the firstborn/rolling the pacifier thing is one of the hardest things to explain, but once you wrap your mind around exactly what's happening (the game starts each time with the same genetic seed number - generate new sims or get it to roll that number forward after the first kid, so your babies are born using a different genetic seed number and look different) it's not too bad. :)

[Lemon&Lime]

True, it does seem a lot more simpler now that I've got my head round it. (She says as she tries to de-code what HP said in the brackets).

[Boioi]

I'm still having a problem, all the babys still look the same. :(
One of my female Sims is pregnant, it's the second baby.
I left the lot, went to antoher and then returned, I used "Build a Sim" ingame and created some random Sims and I used the Lotdebugger (the one which looks like a blackbox with a Batman on it), but the newborn always looks like its brother. The Lotdebugger gives me a warning, that it will return to the neighbourhood, but it doesn't return. I'm only owning the base-game, none of the addons. Anyone here who can help me? It's really boring when the kids all look the same even if you tried everything to prevent it. :(


Edit: I tried it again (changed from Schönsichtingen (that's the German name of Pleasentview) to Merkwürdigenhausen (Strangetown), created a random family, changed to General Firtz' Lot and back to the nieghbourhood and lot with the pregnant sim) and its a look-a-like same gender child again. :(

[Zaggytiddies]

I'm still having a problem, all the babys still look the same. :(
One of my female Sims is pregnant, it's the second baby.
I left the lot, went to antoher and then returned, I used "Build a Sim" ingame and created some random Sims and I used the Lotdebugger (the one which looks like a blackbox with a Batman on it), but the newborn always looks like its brother. The Lotdebugger gives me a warning, that it will return to the neighbourhood, but it doesn't return. I'm only owning the base-game, none of the addons. Anyone here who can help me? It's really boring when the kids all look the same even if you tried everything to prevent it. :(


Edit: I tried it again (changed from Schönsichtingen (that's the German name of Pleasentview) to Merkwürdigenhausen (Strangetown), created a random family, changed to General Firtz' Lot and back to the nieghbourhood and lot with the pregnant sim) and its a look-a-like same gender child again. :(

I'm very sorry if you already realize this but all the babies do look the same. When you age them to toddlers they start to look like individuals.

[Boioi]

I'm very sorry if you already realize this but all the babies do look the same. When you age them to toddlers they start to look like individuals.

Yeah, I know that baby all the babys look the same, but up to now they where all male, had a brown skin (only one prant is brown) and yellow eye-brows. What about black eye-brows or another skintone? Isn't it possible?

[Simfox7]

What about black eye-brows or another skintone? Isn't it possible?

The children are limited to the various genetic combinations available from the parents. Sims created from CAS are able to pass on only traits that are exhibited. Second generation sims and beyond may be "carriers" for unexpressed traits (hair color, eye color, etc) that are not expressed. I don't believe that sims can spontaneously mutate and have traits that do not exist somewhere in the family tree.

[musiquefille_SC]

a more surefire way to tell if they are clones is to check their personality traits. if they match and they look the same, they are. otherwise, its just a chance that they happened to get the same major features such as skin/hair/eye colors.

[markusrandall]

Pescado's lot debugger works great for this. I just tried it out for the first time the other night and my Sim wound up having twins. They both have unique traits and features.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I don't believe you get dominant/recessive skintones, but if you're using most custom skins, they'll always be dominant over Maxis defaults - if one parent wears custom (*) skin and the other wears Maxis skin (or a default replacement) the babies will always get custom skin. Certain skins (like my own) are geneticized so that this doesn't happen - they blend genetically with Maxis skins. A side effect is that they may pop up even when neither parent has that skin (S1 and S4 Maxis may end up with an S2 baby with my skin!) so that's a little odd but I kinda like it.

Boioi - Gender is purely 50/50 random so don't worry about gender in your tests. As is said above, you should be looking at personality traits/star sign to be sure they're actually identical... and bear in mind that if you use the Maxis template faces (i.e. the first two, the only non-fugly ones) then all children are going to look the same because the parents have basically the same face.

[Boioi]

Thanks. I looked up their personality and interests and they are slightly different.:)

[dfs2600]

Does rolling the pacifier affect the birth of twins? So far I've had 4 births in my town and 3 of them have been twins (1 couple with 2 sets)! I did not know about rolling the pacifier for any of these pregnancies (and all four births happened during different play sessions), so I am wondering if that affected it. Or is this just random?

[HystericalParoxysm]

No, it doesn't, dfs2600. If you read on the game guide linked in the first post of this thread it explains what gets you twins.

[dfs2600]

I read the game guide, and that's what got me wondering because it says there is only a 5-10% chance of twins per pregnancy. So statistically speaking, it would seem rather amazing that I have 3 sets of twins out of 4 births, right? I was just wondering if anyone had had the same experience (with regard to not rolling the pacifier). But if it truly is chance, cheesecake, or cheats, I will defer to you and the guide. Twins are exhausting for me and my sim parents, so I was hoping I could do something to prevent them. Oh, well.

[HystericalParoxysm]

If one of the parents is a twin or may have randomly gotten the "twin gene" that could cause you to get more twins. Or it might just be randomly - statistical anomalies do occur. I've only had natural twins once, ever, in my game.

[dfs2600]

I'd go with "twin gene" (especially for the parents with two sets of twins in a row) because none of these parents have a twin (but out of the two sets of parents, all of them except one have a sibling from CAS--could that be considered a twin?). So, presumably when these twin children grow up, they are more likely to have twins? Ugh. Adoption is looking good (you can't get twins from adoption, can you?)

[HystericalParoxysm]

It can just come up randomly even if no twins are present in the family. There's a little invisible token sims can end up with that denote they are more likely to have twins. I'm not sure how to tell whether or not a certain sim has one - might be a way to look in SimPE though I've never checked for that. It is more likely that children who are twins will get the twin token - not 100% but more likely.

You could always impregnate your sims using the InSIMenator. If you don't specifically choose twins when using it, you don't get twins.

[strangerous]

Wow, that's some good information to know. Thanks for the heads up!

[melethana]

I have a family that I made in CAS with 2 teen girls that have exactly the same face, but I liked that, because in my mind they are fraternal twins (one blonde, one brunette)
In another family, 2 boys, born at different times, are clones of each otehr, even down to the shirt they were assigned when they grew to child. That bugged me, and was more than a bit creepy. Now I know to roll the pacifier to avoid the creepy cloning!

[Ghost sdoj]

There is a token in memory that you can see in SimPe called "Pregnancy modifier token". I've seen it in sims who weren't pregnant. (In one neighborhood Ricky Cormier had it, and he's a teen townie male.)

My sim who has one and is married to a guy who has one always has twins unless I use the Triplets and Quads hack and select "Single." So I'm guessing that this is the "twin token".

[daniball95]

i still don't get it i am kind of confused....

[Lemon&Lime]

Basically, unless you roll the pacifiyer then your Sims next child will look identical to their first child.

[1306]

I did roll the pacifier. But my babies keep getting the same eye color and skintone. I'm confused--am I supposed to roll the pacifier before I get my sims pregnant or before she gives birth?

Edit: One sim has custom eye colors and skintone. The other has default replacements and a Maxis skintone. Any explanations why?

[Lemon&Lime]

I did roll the pacifier. But my babies keep getting the same eye color and skintone. I'm confused--am I supposed to roll the pacifier before I get my simj pregnant or before she gives birth?

Rolling the pacfiyer means that your Sims children will not get the same features - i.e. same nose, same mouth, etc. It does not mean they will get different skintones and eye colour, as that is based on dominant/recessive genes that the parents have. For example, if the mother had pale skin and brown eyes, and the father had dark skin and blue eyes, its very likely that most of the children they have will have medium/dark skin and brown eyes, as those are dominant.

Edit; Custom eyecolours and skintones are much more dominant than the genetic skintones. So, in other words, if one Sim had custom eyes and skin that was not default, and the other Sim had the default Maxis skintones, the custom eyes and skin will always be dominant (this applys even when you have default replacements; the CC skin will still be dominant).

[SofieAmalieN]

Ok, here it goes. I didn't roll the pacifier and my kids are NOT looking a like. I have one couple with 4 kids.

The teen boy has his father's features and eye colour, but he has his dad's skin and hair colour.

The girl has her dad's mother's features, her father's eye colour, and her dad's skin and hair colour.

Twin baby no. 1 has his dad's mother's eye colour and his dad's skin and hair colour.
Twin baby no. 2 has his father's eye colour and his dad's skin and hair colour.

All the kids are played in different playing sessions. I think my sister might have been playing around in CAS, but not in the same playing session as my couple have had 2 births.

Am I lucky...?

[1306]

Edit; Custom eyecolours and skintones are much more dominant than the genetic skintones. So, in other words, if one Sim had custom eyes and skin that was not default, and the other Sim had the default Maxis skintones, the custom eyes and skin will always be dominant (this applys even when you have default replacements; the CC skin will still be dominant).

What about two sims who are all CC eyecolors and skintones? How does that work?

[SofieAmalieN]

What about two sims who are all CC eyecolors and skintones? How does that work?

I think there's a 50/50 chance of the baby getting any of the parents' genetics.

50/50 on eyes, skin, hair etc.

[happycowlover]

Sometimes Pescado's Debugger Mod doesn't work for me. Instead of giving my sims vastly different faces, they'll have different eye colors and skintone with very similar facial features with maybe a nose difference. I don't know why seeing as the parents usually have very unique faces, so their children should have different faces from each other.

[FlyingKiwi]

Ah fantastic, I haven't been on this site for a couple of months and I just got back into playing TS2 and remembered hearing about how to avoid the dreaded Firstborn Syndrome here somewhere - what luck to find a topic on the very first page. :)

[simsample]

Sometimes Pescado's Debugger Mod doesn't work for me. Instead of giving my sims vastly different faces, they'll have different eye colors and skintone with very similar facial features with maybe a nose difference. I don't know why seeing as the parents usually have very unique faces, so their children should have different faces from each other.

You're missing the point of the FFS Debugger. What it actually does is to randomize the sim generator- it doesn't mean that your siblings will not look very similar. The way the game works is that each 'value' (cheek shape, eye shape, nose shape etc.,) has different probabilities of being inherited, depending upon the parent. For example, Parent A may have dominant nose, eye shape and chin, whereas parent B may only have dominant mouth. Therefore, there is a greater chance that each sibling will have the nose, eye shape and chin from Parent A and the mouth from parent B, than there is that they will have parent B's nose, eyes and chin. As the game works by giving the sim either the nose from parent A or the nose from Parent B, and not a combination of the two, then you will often have two siblings with 'the same' nose. To see which traits are dominant you need to boot the game in debug mode and use the SimDNA (simname) cheat. If you don't roll the pacifier or use the debugger then you can guarantee that the sim randomizer will be at the same condition in successive game sessions.

[kustirider2]

I dont understand the FFS Debugger, i have it in game but i dont fully understand the randomise sim genetics button and if it just exits the lot or the whole game?

[simsample]

Yes, that is by design. In order to randomize the sim generator the game must exit to neighbourhood view (without saving). You must then re-enter the lot you were playing.

[lolwtf_SC]

Why is this feature in the sims?

And is it true that it is fixed with the seasons EP?

[HystericalParoxysm]

lolwtf - It's just a quirk, not really a feature exactly - nor is it exactly a bug... They could have easily randomized the genetics a little bit somehow. It's just an oversight. It's never been fixed - it's present in all EPs.

[Kaelem Gaen]

I don't think I've ran into that yet, or if I have I didn't even notice. However, I make lots of different families, and most times now when I'm making kids for a couple, I use the pacifier. I also have The Sims 2 Store Edition now, should get the sims based on my brother and my sister-in-law pregnant again, see if the kid turns out like their teen daughter.

[pinklime07]

Very interesting ... I didn't know any of that. Should be helpful!

[melethana]

I have a lesbian couple who have had 3 daughters using the Tombstone of Life & Death's "simulate genetic merger with" option. Their first 2 daughters have a family resemblance, but are certainly not clones. Baby number 3 was born last night and is still an infant. I never rolled the pacifier in CAS for any of these children, but I did use the patient method of choosing the baby’s gender. Baby boy born, exit to neighborhood without saving, re-enter the house. Since there have been at least 3 baby boys born for each girl, would that have had the same effect as rolling the pacifier? Otherwise, I’m not sure why the first 2 girls, which were not born during the same play session are not clones.

[AdmiralAeris]

I have a lesbian couple who have had 3 daughters using the Tombstone of Life & Death's "simulate genetic merger with" option. Their first 2 daughters have a family resemblance, but are certainly not clones. Baby number 3 was born last night and is still an infant. I never rolled the pacifier in CAS for any of these children, but I did use the patient method of choosing the baby’s gender. Baby boy born, exit to neighborhood without saving, re-enter the house. Since there have been at least 3 baby boys born for each girl, would that have had the same effect as rolling the pacifier? Otherwise, I’m not sure why the first 2 girls, which were not born during the same play session are not clones.

Yes, it would. Any method of reseeding the RNG works.

[littbrat5]

When you roll the pacifier, play a lot, and then exit that same lot to play another, will the game keep the same pacifier effect or will I have to roll it again?

[Katya Stevens]

When you roll the pacifier, play a lot, and then exit that same lot to play another, will the game keep the same pacifier effect or will I have to roll it again?

So long as you don't quit the game between loading lots, you're fine.

[melethana]

AdmiralAeris - Thanks! I was very worried that baby number 3 was going to be a clone. No worries now!

[Tom Duhamel]

Just did a full test and well, here is the result.

Test performed with Free Time (latest update installed).

Had a female adult have 3 pregnancies in a row, using InTeen to make her pregnant from the the paperboy (he happened to be the first NPC around) and forced an immediate delivery. Named them Baby A, Baby B and Baby C. Since the last pregnancy happened to result into a set, the fourth baby was named, surprisingly, Baby D. I saved and exited from the game completely in between each pregnancy, even though they all occurred within one sim hour.

Result proves what was already known, that is, nothing was ever fixed. Baby A, B and C all had the exact same personality. Baby D had a completely different personality, since the genetic RNG was already rolled for Baby C at the time. Visually they all looked the same, even D. Even hair cuts were the same.

[simsample]

Yes, that is what I've found (despite there being contrary information from several game coders). The discussion starts on this page:
http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=27556&page=155&pp=25

[Tom Duhamel]

Yes, that is what I've found (despite there being contrary information from several game coders). The discussion starts on this page:
http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=27556&page=155&pp=25

Oh I didn't know of a recent test! Well because of those contradictory information I wanted to perform my own test and sort it out for good. Now it's a done thing :)

[simsample]

I always assumed the firstborn effect didn't affect the faces as I'd read on so many forums that it affected only personality. However it seems that all of these forums were possibly getting the information from the same, incorrect source! :lol:

[AdmiralAeris]

I always assumed the firstborn effect didn't affect the faces as I'd read on so many forums that it affected only personality. However it seems that all of these forums were possibly getting the information from the same, incorrect source! :lol:

Not only that, it even jumps neighborhoods with respect to pre-mades! (I once intended to exploit both of these facts in a contest entry once, using a sim born to the same two parents in another neighborhood to represent my entry sim as a child.)

[Ghost sdoj]

Before I knew about it, I had one family with 4 boys and one girl. Two of the boys even consistently grew up into the same outfits! It is impossible to tell them apart.

(And don't mess with those kids: They are hyper-active, outgoing neat freaks with a sociopathic bent. Six cow mascots and a couple of townies have found out about the secret society's cowplant by getting one of them angry.)

[simsample]

Not only that, it even jumps neighborhoods with respect to pre-mades!
Yes, it is the game 'randomizer' that is affected and that is common to all hoods. It seems that the game uses the same randomizer for all aspects of the game, and that this randomizer is not truly random. Hence the repetition of personality and appearance.

[M.M.A.A.]

*No necromancy meant*

According to the wiki about the the first born syndrome, rolling the pacifier will only need to be done once during a playing session and all babies born (even those in the same household that are born after each other) will not look the same, what about the sim randomizer from the batbox?

[Peni Griffin]

The sim randomizer on the batbox is the same thing as rolling the pacifier.

[Mootilda]

If you always roll the pacifier the same number of times, then you will still have the first-born syndrome. The idea is to roll it a random number of times at the beginning of a game session.

EA doesn't believe in random numbers, because they make testing more difficult.

[wendy_brune]

...I wonder with the new combined packs its fixed? Or maybe I just forgot that I did something? I got all my Sims 2 games after Sims 3 came out, so I got the Double Deluxe version, as well as the Uni, OFB, and Pets packs that were combined with stuff packs. I now have all expansions and stuff packs excepted for the Glamour one and Holiday Stuff.

I played two of my Sims (who were CAS created), and they had twins. Quite a few quit and plays later, the same couple had a boy - I can't really speak to whether his face was similar, since I haven't taken the time to compare, but I do know his personality WAS different. (He was much meaner than his siblings.) I wonder if this means it has been fixed, or maybe I just did something different and have forgotten.

[Mootilda]

Just did a full test and well, here is the result.

Result proves what was already known, that is, nothing was ever fixed. Baby A, B and C all had the exact same personality. Baby D had a completely different personality, since the genetic RNG was already rolled for Baby C at the time. Visually they all looked the same, even D. Even hair cuts were the same.Note that 4 sims is not a significant sample. Especially given that D had the same appearance as the other three, which implies that the couple tend to produce identical looking children, regardless of randomization.

I cannot consider this a "full" test. Just one sample point.

Create several hundred children without the randomizer and several hundred more with the randomizer. At that point, we might be able to say something about whether appearance is affected by the randomizer. If every single child produced without the randomizer has an identical appearance, and some number of children produced with the randomizer have different appearances, then you've actually shown something interesting.

Of course, the minute that you have a non-randomized sim with a different appearance you can stop, since you've proven that appearance is not affected by the randomizer.

It might be useful for this experiment to install all dominant or all recessive genes, to increase the likelihood of alternative genetics:
http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=434085

At the very least, the parents should both have dominant genes, or both have recessive genes, to decrease the dominant / recessive effect.

It probably also makes sense to have the two parents have very different personalities.

[julmoo]

The sim randomizer on the batbox is the same thing as rolling the pacifier.

I am only slowly getting into the batbox and the other handy things that I downloaded with the insimenator (or was it MATY's hacks? No idea). How exactly do I use the sim randomizer?

[Darby]

I find it best to use it when I'm through with one lot and about to go to another, because using this feature of the batbox puts you at the neighborhood view, which is where you're about to go anyway.

So, go through whatever lot-leaving routine you have, SAVE, then click the Re-randomize the Sim Generator button on the batbox. The lot will freeze momentarily, then boot you to the neighborhood screen.

[julmoo]

Cool, I didn't know that.

Thank you Darby, you're a great tutor! :D

[Darby]

Thank you, and you're welcome.

[joandsarah77]

When I started my legacy I had no idea of the first born effect and saved and exited the game before each of the three births. I had a girl, a boy and another boy to that family all with first born effect. I didn't realize it until the youngest was a child though, but all three have the same face, same personality points, same star sign and even the same hobby. Two of them even ended up with the same LTW. :rolleyes:

[simsample]

Create several hundred children without the randomizer and several hundred more with the randomizer. At that point, we might be able to say something about whether appearance is affected by the randomizer.
My daughter and I managed to do around 70 unrandomized when we were testing this several years ago, and all appeared identical.

We used two computers with the same gameversion, and spent a whole day reloading the game over and over! :lol: I still have the images somewhere- we took pictures of each of the offspring's faces, so that we could compare them.

So that's why I concluded that the sim appearance is governed by the randomizer (although Pes maintains that this is just because there are so few permutations for the offspring of any two sims, so it's likely you'll think there is a 'firstborn' effect).

@julmoo- the batbox sim randomizer rolls the pacifier a random number of times, so that you will have a true random starting point.

[Mootilda]

I tend to believe Pescado because he usually gets his ideas by examining the source code. That's usually better than any number of tests, although it won't necessary tell you whether a bug is causing the randomization to fail.

simsample, it seems like you've done half of the necessary tests. The question is: how different are the sims' appearances when the randomizer is used?

Did you age the children up so that you could compare their adult appearances? Also, did you check their genetics in SimPE? It seems that starting with parents with 4 different dominant genes is the best way to run the test. If you do that for skin color, hair color, eye color, etc., then your tests would be more likely to produce variations.

That's good to know about the batbox randomizer. It's obviously a better choice than rolling the pacifier.

[vertigoinyellow]

I've never had this problem. My sim siblings always look different and often have different zodiac signs. I have this result whether I randomize or not.

[simsample]

I tend to believe Pescado because he usually gets his ideas by examining the source code.
I know- I would tend to believe him too (but don't tell him I said that!). But the thing is, every test I was doing was saying the opposite. HystericalParoxysm did her own tests too because she wrote the wiki article on this; the reason I did these tests in the first place was because I sided with Pescado and disbelieved HP's observations.


simsample, it seems like you've done half of the necessary tests. The question is: how different are the sims' appearances when the randomizer is used?
Sufficiently different so that you could tell there was a difference; in just the same way as you'd see it when rolling the pacifier in CAS.

Did you age the children up so that you could compare their adult appearances? Also, did you check their genetics in SimPE?
Yes, this was comparing the sims aged up to adult each time. We used the Simdna cheat to give us the genetics of the sim to compare. I've attached two examples, I'm not sure I have the images of all of the tests we did any more, but they were all the same without exception for the unrandomized sims (barring gender).


It seems that starting with parents with 4 different dominant genes is the best way to run the test. If you do that for skin color, hair color, eye color, etc., then your tests would be more likely to produce variations.
As you can see, we did it slightly differently- the father had S4 skin, blonde/blonde hair and green eyes, the mother had S1 skin, red/red hair and light blue eyes. So all recessives there. Should give the same result though, I think. Oh, and we gave them very different appearances- so the father had huge ears, the mother small; the father a long pointy nose, the mother a stubby nose and so on. The idea behind this was that any differences would be more apparent.

Edited to add: Thinking about it, I think we used sims with all dominant genes on my daughter's machine- I can't find her pictures though, I'll have to ask her if she remembers. I'm sure we used different sims on her tests to rule out any idiosyncracies.

[Mootilda]

Great. That's a much better test than just checking 3 non-randomized and 1 randomized sim.

I'm guessing that the source code shows the genetics being randomized, but a bug is causing the game to avoid the randomization logic. That would explain both Pes's insistence and the test results.

So, if there's a bug, I wonder whether there's some way to fix the bug? Or perhaps some way to get the batbox randomization to occur automatically when you start the game?

[Darby]

I've never had this problem. My sim siblings always look different and often have different zodiac signs. I have this result whether I randomize or not.

Play style is a factor in whether or not you ever see this glitch.

From the Wiki:
Firstborn syndrome may not be noticeable in your game if you tend to have more than one child per load of the game, if you often make new sims in Create a Sim first (thereby randomizing genetics when you hit "random sim"), if you use very basic facial sculpts for your sims (as most people do!) or if the parents of your sims are very similar in appearance. However, it is occurring, and if you want to have unique children, you should Roll the Pacifier!
http://www.modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=Game_Help:Pregnancy#Rolling_the_Pacifier_and_Firstborn_Syndrome

[Mootilda]

I tend to backup before babies, so I'm a prime victim.

[Darby]

My funniest and most annoying experience with it was in twins. A couple had boy/girl twins, then a second set of boy/girl twins with the same personalities (as the older two - not each other), except that the younger boy's personality was the same as the older girl's, and the younger girl's the same as the older boy's.

I think there was a similar mirroring of hair color, if I recall, as in the older boy/younger girl being blond and the older girl/younger boy being redheaded. They all reminded me of the four corners of a square, somehow, with a big X in the middle, connecting to each other in multiple same/opposite ways of gender, personality, and hair color.

At the time, I'd never heard of Firstborn Syndrome, so I was a bit baffled. :lol:

[Peni Griffin]

I hope you named them Nan, Bert, Freddy, and Flossie!

[Selly_2009]

I'm usually very good about hitting the randomizer these days, but even I get caught out every now and then... I forgot to roll when one parent got pregnant (again!), and her son fell victim to Firstborn Syndrome. However, there was a slight twist; it wasn't the FIRST-born he mirrored, but the second in the family!

I'm fully aware that oldest child Daisy and her younger sister Dawn are nothing alike (I rolled before Dawn and her twin Declan were born), yet little Drew mirrors Dawn, not Daisy. By contrast, baby sister Dakota (who was born within the same game load as Drew) looks like Daisy colouring-wise - I've not checked her personality yet!

[Darby]

I'm sad to say I had to look that up, Peni. The phrase "Bobbsey Twins" is one I was well aware of growing up, but I never read the books. If I had, and I'd known that second set of twins was forthcoming, I may very well have used those names! :D

[Amalia81]

I'm usually very good about hitting the randomizer these days, but even I get caught out every now and then... I forgot to roll when one parent got pregnant (again!), and her son fell victim to Firstborn Syndrome.

Same - in five years of playing, I think I've gotten my first instance of the Firstborn Effect. The couple I'm playing just had a son who has the exact same eye color, hair color, and personality points as his college-age sister. *rolls the batbox*

[julmoo]

Once I forgot to roll the pacifier and a family was about to have their second child. I didn't save throughout the game either so the firstborn effect kicked in.

Well, they had a party with barbecue later that day <.<

[Mootilda]

After some research, I'm convinced that there is a randomization bug which causes the first-born effect for appearance, and that the bug is inside of the EXE, which means that it cannot be modded directly.

I still think that it might be possible to create a mod which just runs the batbox randomization routine when the game is started.

[Darby]

So are there then two sims randomizers possibly getting stuck - one for personality and one for appearance? That would seem to explain the confusion over whether or not appearance is part of the syndrome. As in, the personality randomizer always gets stuck, but the appearance randomizer only sometimes?

[Mootilda]

The game has a number of different randomizers for different things, including personality, genetics, sex, etc. There's an bug in the personality randomizer, which Pes documented. After doing some research, I'm convinced that there is also a bug in the genetics randomizer. However, the sex randomizer seems to work correctly.

The problem is that computers are not very good at being random. Instead, they are really great at doing exactly the same thing every time.

Randomizers work as follows: You provide an initial "seed" value. After that, each call to the randomizer runs an algorithm (mathematical formula) on the existing value to produce a new value. If the seed value is the same each time you run the program, then the set of "random" numbers generated will be the same, every single time.

Because of this, you want to use a random number as the seed. But remember, computers are really bad at being random, so where do you get this "random" seed? Often programmers will seed the randomizer with the time, which is likely to be random.

(Note that the time is not always a reasonable "random" seed. For example, I've heard of problems because a gambling program was started automatically at the exact same time every day. Instead of random numbers, the exact same numbers were being generated every time. Someone noticed the pattern and used that bug to win a lot of money.)

Unfortunately, it looks like the genetics seed is always the same value, which means that the "random" numbers will not be random at all. Since we don't have access to the seed, which is inside the EXE, the only other option for getting a random number is to run the randomizer a random number of times. That's why you roll the pacifier a random number of times when you start the game; you are basically running each of the randomizers when you roll the pacifier.

The Batbox does basically the same thing, because it runs the Make New Character primitive, which in turn runs each of the randomizers.

So are there then two sims randomizers possibly getting stuck - one for personality and one for appearance? That would seem to explain the confusion over whether or not appearance is part of the syndrome. As in, the personality randomizer always gets stuck, but the appearance randomizer only sometimes?The genetics randomization bug always occurs, just as the personality randomization bug always occurs. The fact that personality and genetics use different randomizers is basically irrelevant. In both cases, the randomizers are always starting with the same value (seed) when the game starts, which means that the results are predictable.

Hope that wasn't too techie. However, you can now quote me as having done the research necessary to prove that a sim's appearance is also prone to the "first-born syndrome". The solution is the same: use the pacifier or the batbox to randomize the randomizer.

[Darby]

Nope, not too techie, but I do have a question. If the genetics randomization bug always occurs, just as the personality randomization bug always occurs, why is it that not all instances of the glitch include identical appearance as well as identical personality?

I thought the long-standing confusion over the whether or not appearance is an aspect of the glitch was due to some players seeing identical sims, and others not. Perhaps the apparently non-identical ones are always boy/girl, and thus harder to spot as being "identical"?

[Mootilda]

As simsample learned through extensive testing, all children born to the same parents will be identical, as long as you restart the game before each birth and don't do anything to randomize. That convinced me to do more research to see whether I could understand the reason why this was happening.

Lots of people go into CAS and create families, or have multiple births per play session, or roll the pacifier, or randomize using the batbox. All of these things will make the genetics more random. Some number of people, like me, just don't happen to notice that all of the children born to one set of parents basically look the same. Other people tend to mix their couples up more, which produces different genetics. And, as you say, sex can mask identical genetics because those genetics are expressed differently for men and women.

Its also possible that creating a new townie will run the randomizer. If a new townie or twelve are created between starting the game and giving birth, then it's possible that you'll get different genetics. Note that I can't confirm this without more research. There may be other things which run the randomizer as well.

One more thing; I only looked at one EXE. While it's hard to believe that EA actually fixed and then re-broke the randomizer seed, I suppose that it's possible. We've seen them "lose" fixes before.

[Darby]

Okay, that all makes sense. Thanks.

We've seen them "lose" fixes before.
That we have. :rolleyes:

[simsample]

Its also possible that creating a new townie will run the randomizer.
I can confirm this from my observations- when I first began the tests I started with the two parent sims moved into a lot but forgot that the paper-boy was due. If I spawned the child after the paper-boy arrived then I got a different looking sim, so I had to save the game after the paper delivery and start again.

Great research and information, Mootilda- thank you!

[Mootilda]

I still think that it might be possible to create a mod which just runs the batbox randomization routine when the game is started.I did a bit of research into this issue and it appears that there is no way to make a global mod which will roll the pacifier a random number of times when the game is started. That's because the Make New Character primitive actually creates new sims. The only way to avoid filling up your neighborhood is to enter a lot, make a number of new sims, and then exit the lot without saving. This basically means that it can't be a global mod.

[MuletotheFoxxes]

I think that there is a bug in the twin generator or what ever it's called. I got around 20 sets of twins in a row until I thought to start using the bat box's randomizer before getting my sims pregnant. Then it settled down to a much more reasonable rate of twins. Even so, if I forget to roll it per-pregnancy, then I will get twins again, every single time. Highly annoying seeing as how I only occasionally like twins.

I also have a problem with my multi-pt pack always giving me the same pt parent. Bat-box can't fix that though, I have to just force someone alien pregnant through the simblender a few times terminating the pregnancy each time before letting them at the telescope or the dance sphere.

[Mootilda]

Sounds like you may have CC which is causing you problems. Does this happen if you remove all of your CC?

[MuletotheFoxxes]

It was happening before I got CC. I think the only reason Dina didn't have twins is because I got her pregnant right after Nina.

Although, getting the no a+ cheer mod did get rid of it for a while. That was the only piece of CC I got before I got any expansions, and once I got expansions, the twin glitch came back.

[Mootilda]

More bad news. Yes, the batbox creates a "random" number of sims, which it then discards. Unfortunately, it looks like the batbox is using a broken random number generator, so the "random" number of sims is exactly the same every time. The number is only random if the random number generator has been called multiple times since the game was started.

[Darby]

Yikes! Does Pescado know this?

The number is only random if the random number generator has been called multiple times since the game was started.
If the random number generator is "called"? What does that mean, exactly.

[Peni Griffin]

So when the batbox says it's "fixed and removed X number of items," it's not referring to the number of discarded CAS sims? Because those numbers are always different. I can't remember particular instances, but I know sometimes it's a three-digit number, sometimes two, sometimes only one. I think it's even been a four-digit number, but don't quote me.

To what, then, does this message refer?

In any case, I haven't had first born syndrome but the once, before I knew about rolling the pacifier, and it's not often I get two births in one play session. And the batbox has been my go-to preventative.

[Mootilda]

Yes, that message refers to the number of sims created and discarded. BHAVs have access to only one Random Number generator, and it looks like that generator is not properly seeded. However, that particular random number generator is used by all BHAVs which require a random number, so the likelihood may be that it will be called a random number of times before the batbox is used.

I saved my game immediately before a birth, then ran some tests on that birth. Every single time, the batbox created 13 sims. Further investigation indicates that very few of EA's random number generators are properly seeded. Rolling the pacifier a random number of times resolved my testing issue.

I'm glad if most people aren't experiencing this. Again, I'm probably particularly susceptible to this bug because of the way that I play. I won't report this to Pescado until I've done further testing. My tests were for my new Modified Eye Color Genetics mod, but I should really test with no other mods before reporting it. I may try to find a better solution before reporting it, too.

[Peni Griffin]

Ah, so presumably something about the way I play has tended to trigger generation of random numbers for other uses (all those community lots I tend to visit, maybe?) before the births happen, so by the time I get to the batbox I really do get a random number. If I understand this correctly, that probably means I don't need the batbox as much as many people do, but it makes a good insurance policy.

[Mootilda]

That's almost correct. The Random Number BHAV primitive is definitely returning the exact same number every time, when it is the first thing that occurs on starting the game. If you aren't experiencing that, then the likelihood is that the Random Number primitive is being called multiple times during your normal gameplay.

However, the fact that the Random Number primitive is being called a random number of times doesn't remove the need for the batbox. That's because the random number generators used to create babies are separate from the Random Number primitive available to us in BHAVs, and those random number generators are only used to create new characters. At the very least, we need to randomize the personality random number generator and the genetics random number generator. Unfortunately, we have no access to those random number generators except through the Make New Character BHAV primitive. So, unless your game is spawning random townies, you still need the batbox to spawn and safely remove a random number of townies.

The good thing is that the Random Number primitive used by the batbox will function (somewhat) correctly if it has already been called a random number of times.

Basically, (as far as I can tell) almost all of the random number generators in the game are broken. The programmers at EA don't seem to understand how to properly set the seed for the random number generators. Unfortunately, the seeding is done inside of the EXE, so there's no easy way for us to fix the problem, although it might be possible to patch the EXE, as Dizzy did for his Thumbnail Hack.

Fixing the seed is the correct solution, and will produce the best results. The next best alternative is to run the random number generator a random number of times. This won't give us the best results, but will still be better than the alternative.

Unfortunately, Pes used the (broken) random number generator to decide how many times to Make New Character. The solution is to skip the (broken) Random Number primitive and find a truly random number. There are a number of possible options, but BHAVs don't have access to many of those options. Perhaps the best one would be to use LUA, which should have access to a (hopefully unbroken) random number generator of its own.

My delay in reporting this to Pescado is not because I am unsure of my results, but because Pes asks us to report problems in a specific way. As a courtesy, I intend to do the additional research before reporting the bug.

[Sunbee]

I get truly random, or a fairly good imitation of random, from the batbox--the last two were five and twenty. Is there something I could help with testing, Mootilda? I keep an empty Anygame for testing stuff (since I don't program/create, I figure it's what I can offer from time to time).

[Mootilda]

Thanks for the offer, but it's probably easier to do all of the work myself, so that the results will be guaranteed to be consistent.

[gulhare]

I use batbox randomizer first thing any time I play. Enter a household, cancel action for a sim and hit the box.
I think I get a bit too many 23 or 25. As I thought "..items removed" was individual features (ah ha stupid) I didnt bother too much about it, now I guess this means I have to do something about it.
So, to run the randomiser once more directly after the first will get me a true random then?

[Mootilda]

There's no way to get a true random number from the EA source code, because the random number generators are not seeded correctly. With a true random seed, the numbers that you get out of the random number generator are much more random, although they still follow a strict algorithm. For all intents and purposes, though, a random seed gives the best result and appears most random.

However, without a random seed, there is a specific list of numbers and you just get to choose which of those numbers to start with. After that, the "random number generator" will just give you the list in sequence. One could determine that list by running the random number generator over and over again and then writing down the results. Most of the random number generators that EA uses are not properly seeded. This is why you must call the randomizer a random number of times to get the best results that are currently possible. This gets you somewhere into the sequence of numbers.

I have learned that I must have other MATY hacks installed to see the random number bug. I suspect that the random number generator is being used when those hacks are not in place. There appears to be no other requirement to see the bug. I have not yet narrowed down which hacks are actually calling the random number generator; I'm not sure that it's worth my time to investigate further. Instead, I have been looking into whether there is any way to get the batbox a random number from available (BHAV) data.

Again, the best solution for this problem is to patch the EXE so that each of the random number generators are seeded correctly, especially because I just don't seem to be able to get into the habit of rolling the pacifier multiple times before a birth. Quatchi and I have been discussing this issue and we may try to create a patch which is compatible with Dizzy's thumbnail hack for M&G. However, neither of us is inclined to consider creating patches for every EP and SP.

[M.M.A.A.]

After missing out on a lot and reading what I missed out, I have been wondering now becasue I'm a bit confused: should we use the sim randomizer from the batbox several times?

Here is what i did, before a birth, I would use the batbox once, then I would go to CAS to do the rolling of the pacifier (a random number of times, I really don't keep track of how many times I do it), that way I hope I guarantee that randomization has actually occurred, and its once per play session. Is this enough? Because I can see some differentiation...

[Mootilda]

The Batbox asks for a number from a non-seeded random number generator, then creates that many new sims, then exits the lot without saving so that you don't end up with a ton of unwanted sims.

Because the Batbox is using a non-seeded random number generator, the "random" number that it gets isn't very random. You can increase the randomness of the process by using the Batbox sim randomizer a random number of times.

However, that particular random number generator is used by other processes during game startup, depending upon the hacks that you have installed (and probably depending upon the EPs that you have installed). So, you may be getting a somewhat random number without using the Batbox sim randomizer multiple times.

How can you tell? The Batbox will print out the number of sims created (although the error message isn't obvious). If you consistently see the exact same number displayed, then you should run the sim randomizer a random number of times, or roll the pacifier a random number of times. However, if the Batbox is displaying different numbers, then I wouldn't worry about it.

In my case, the Batbox always generates exactly 13 sims, so it isn't helping me at all.

[fruitsymphony]

Recently I examined my population in SimPE and I noticed that 6 sims are named Caryl. So, if there are ~100 non-playable sims of which ~50 are female then more than 10% of the females are named Caryl!
(This is not a problem, I just noticed it.)

[Mootilda]

I suspect that there are also problems with the randomness of the name selection for generated townies. Yet another thing to research.

[M.M.A.A.]

OMG! It seems that anything to do with randomness in the game is broken!

[Mootilda]

As far as I can tell, the EA programmers consistently made the exact same mistake with each random number generator that they used. There are very very few that are actually correctly seeded.

The amazing thing is that they never thought that this was worth fixing. 10 EPs (including M&G and SE) and 8 SPs, numerous patches for each EP, and they just never thought that it was worth the few minutes to properly seed the random number generators.

Please, EA! Give me the source code and I'll fix that for you! ;)

[M.M.A.A.]

Please, EA! Give me the source code and I'll fix that for you! ;)

Why not send them an email with all of the explanation?

Tell them that this is what happens and blah blah and this is how it can be fixed blah blah...

:P

[Mootilda]

EA is no longer doing development on Sims 2, so they would ignore me.

Besides, it might not be wise to admit how much I understand about their coding. I'm a baaaad girl. ;)

Seriously, we've known about the firstborn syndrome for a long time and Pescado reported the problem with the random number generators back near the beginning of the series. Any reasonable programmer could find and fix the problem in a day or less. EA does not consider this to be a problem which is worth fixing.

[Darby]

I suspect that there are also problems with the randomness of the name selection for generated townies.

Oh, I'm sure there is. I know of a player who had a string of Allyn's, which is a name I've seen a number of times myself among newly-generated townies. Another time, I had three newly-generated strays in a row named Alabama.

Not statistical proof, I know, but enough to strongly suspect. Especially in light of known issues of (non)randomness in other areas.

I can't tell you how many times I've railed that EA should listen to the modders of the community!!! *sigh*

ETA: There are threads at MATY where a Maxoid asks for feedback on new EPs to get an idea what needs patching, which is really cool. But I guess one or two Maxoids gathering info didn't have the power to make sure certain things actually got fixed. SO close, yet so far.

[Mootilda]

Well, if Quatchi and I ever get around to trying to create a patch, we'll look into the names too. Once we have the call to get the system time, we might be able to seed all of the global random number generators at the same time.

Mine are Abhijeets. I get so many Abhijeets that it makes my head spin. I seem to be particularly vulnerable to all of the random number generator failures. For one thing, I allow very few townies to generate. For another, I frequently quit and restart my game, which resets all of the random number generators.

Do you have a link to that thread? Any that have been posted to this year? I'd be happy to add a few thoughts.

[Darby]

Oh, the threads involving Maxoids (really, just MaxoidTom, with references to MaxoidSam that don't appear have anything to do with troubleshooting) are ancient and inactive.

But if you're interested in seeing what took place, a perusal of MaxoidTom's posts is a good way to see the various threads he was involved in.
http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=854;sa=showPosts

ETA: Interesting that a lot of the names people see too often start with "A".

[Mootilda]

Thanks, Darby. I will look those over.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that EA is doing any more development on Sims 2, not even a final patch to fix some of the worst bugs. If we want this fixed, we're probably going to have to do it ourselves. My life has been pretty hectic lately, but I'm very interested in getting a fix because I'm so prone to the problem. I also seem to have a really hard time remembering to roll the pacifier because I'm always eager to see the baby. ;)

Highly motivated; very little time... guess we'll just have to see which one wins out. At least Quatchi and I have been discussing how to fix the problem (in theory), so it's on both of our minds.

[gulhare]

Aha! Thats why I get all these Alon chaps running around!

(Until I simblend them that is. Very odd name....)

And update on my batbox randomiser. Last four days gave me 14, 19, 17 and 18. My box seems to work :D

Mootilda
Highly motivated sounds better than no time. The product of highly motivated sound even better. Oh how I wish I could send over some time!

[Mootilda]

"Seems to" is the operative phrase. I'm glad that so few people see the problem with the random number primitive that the batbox uses. Makes sense, though. If most people saw the problem with the random number primitive, then Pescado would never have used it.

[Darby]

Yet another "A" name. Hm.

You're welcome, Mootilda. Should be some interesting reading there.

I can't imagine anyone at EA is doing anything Sims 2 related, nor has done for probably years. It's definitely up to modders like you who're still active and interested to make any wanted changes.

I'm pretty used to living with the game's shortcomings, at this point, but I'm glad you and Quatchi are willing to look into ways to make it better, even at this late date. Anything y'all come up with will be an unexpected and much appreciated bonus! :lovestruc

[lauratje86]

I'm pretty used to living with the game's shortcomings, at this point, but I'm glad you and Quatchi are willing to look into ways to make it better, even at this late date. Anything y'all come up with will be an unexpected and much appreciated bonus!

Agreed! :-) All of the modders and creators here provide valuable additions to my, and other people's, games. I honestly don't know how I'd play without mods nowadays. Especially some of the fixes from MATY and other sites....

[Orilon]

Since EA isn't even fixing long known problems with Sims 3, I very much doubt that they would take a look at Sims 2. If a modder can fix it, he/she is the most likely person to fix it.

I refuse to play without mods, it is too frustrating, and in some cases, too many bugs to play with out them.

[Mootilda]

So Quatchi and I decided to set aside today to try to look into this issue. I just want to set expectations. This would probably be a fairly easy fix if we had the source code. It may be impossible without the source code. Even if we manage to get something working, it will only be for one patch level of one EP. Neither of us is considering anything else.

Wish us luck!

[gulhare]

Good Luck Quatchi
Good Luck Mootilda

[M.M.A.A.]

...it will only be for one patch level of one EP.

As in like AL or Uni or what? Shouldn't you consider M&G? Because, as mentioned before, its "the only SP that acts like an EP"(?).

And BTW, good luck!

[Mootilda]

M&G. I've been avoiding the Store Edition.

Quatchi said something that I thought was really funny: "EA won't fix the bug because they think that you caused the bug by modding the game to avoid generating tons of random townies." I had never really considered the idea that EA doesn't believe that the bug exists. But, if their testers work without mods (expected), then they would probably never see this bug. Pescado caused it when he wrote notownieregen! ;)

[Update:]

Things went fairly well yesterday. We verified that a 1-byte change to the active data will resolve the problems with both genetics and personality (haven't looked into names yet). Then we were stymied for the evening, but I had one of those middle-of-the-night inspirations so I think that we're back on track. We just need to find some more time to get together and work on this again. I am still hopeful that we'll be able to get something with proper randomization.