Mod The Sims - Judges playing favoritism in contests

Cinamun

24th Oct 2007, 04:12 PM

I've judged contests and no matter who you net-like more, you have to show an UNBIASED opinion, give constructive criticism and quality feedback. You are given strict judging criteria and you look at each entry INDIVIDUALLY and judge per the criteria given.

It's also in the rules of the contest area that these are the means in which judges are supposed to judge.

I think in essence, everyone has their favorites, but there is no place for that in judging. I like the artistic quality involved in some of the entries i've seen over the months, but that doesn't mean that I net-like that member more than another. In contests, you can really learn and take notes from other contenders and thats what makes you a favorite: By learning, watching and practicing.

I think we ought to give contest hosts more credit for the judges they chose to give honest, unbiased, real uncut results.

I've had my share of pretty harsh critiques from judges, critiques that hurt my overall score. But I respect that although the judge (per private conversation) thought I was the shiznit and loved my work, he/she had a job to do.

So, maybe the glasses are rose-colored over here, but I don't see favortism. I've seen some of the BEST contestants get some scores that even I thought were too low, but the judges had a job to do. We may not always like our scores or feel we did better than the girl/guy who scored higher than us, but I cant see how favortism could be involved.

I say if you see it, feel it or think it, report it.

(this is the longest post i've typed since
the great paysite debate threads :blink:)

Dreea

24th Oct 2007, 04:14 PM

Cin, thanks for sharing your opinion. :)

HystericalParoxysm

24th Oct 2007, 05:07 PM

In any system where you have human beings responsible, some bias will play into it. That's simply the way life works. Corruption can occur in any system in which individuals have some measure of power or control over others. The best you can do is hope that the individuals involved are trying to be unbiased and give their honest opinions without playing favourites.

If this is truly meant as a debate thread (and you did mention other instances of favouritism in contests - not just Sims 2 so that's okay), it should be in the Debate Room, not Sims 2 Discussion, so I'm moving it there.

Cinamun

24th Oct 2007, 05:32 PM

No problem Dreea.

I always think the Miss Universe pageant is fixed because the girl I choose never wins :blink:

Oh, and we all know the United States presidential election system (technically a contest) is corrupt..

(pretend I didn't type that).

And urban legend has it, some contests here and elsewhere have been fixed.
I just hope that when I enter these things, i'm judged on my entry, not any pseudo-internet popularity that I don't have LOL only small furry forest creatures like me anyway. So if there shall ever be a contest with small furry forest creatures as judges, and I enter, there WILL be bias you guys... there will be bias.

Frenchie

24th Oct 2007, 05:32 PM

I don't judge a contest if (obvious example) Lolli's joined it, because I simply don't want my relationships to interfere with my judging task, or the opposite. Avoiding to accept to be a judge if good friends or lovers of yours have joined it is a good way to get less biased... except if someone very popular enters.

Stormy_SC

24th Oct 2007, 06:04 PM

As some of you may tell, I judge a lot of these contests and to be honest with you, it's an extremely hard job! You want to be honest with the person, but yet at the same time you don't want to hurt their feelings too. I've never played favoritism because I'm too honest to. When I judge, I look for exactly what the host wants me to look for. I look for how the model is posing or is the picture quality good or was it creative enough? Etc, etc. Favoritism has probably been played here and it's not right. So if a person thinks a judge has been playing favorites, then they need to take that up with that person through a PM. Like someone mentioned earlier, every judge is looking for something different. We're all not looking for the same thing.

Lollipop_Girl

24th Oct 2007, 06:12 PM

I joined Frenchie's Champion of Evil and came in 2nd. I know I got that far by myself because Frenchie wasn't a judge. I think the contests I have entered have mostly been fair except one had me a bit suspicious...I won't name which and it was last year anyway.

romyhorse

24th Oct 2007, 06:17 PM

I think most of the contests here are pretty fair, but there was one contests I was in that the scoring was totally crazy and biased. Only one of the judges gave fair scores, the other judges were totally biased towards their favourites that the discrepancies in the scores were totally ridiculous, and the comments the judges were giving were just hero worshipping their favourites. I was so disgusted I almost dropped out, I only stayed because I hate to drop out of contests.

plumbob_SC

24th Oct 2007, 06:39 PM

I'm still relatively new here and I've noticed some shady scorings already. Like what romyhorse said, some judges are fair and some are, well, ridiculous. And yes, I know that everyone is probably looking for something else, but whoa, how different can you say. most of the contests have the same criterior: Beauty (if its is a beauty contest), Creativity, Follow directions, Photoshop ability and whatever else. Most of those are subjective, however follow direction should be dead on.

Dreea

24th Oct 2007, 07:57 PM

Cinamun

24th Oct 2007, 08:55 PM

Yep, I know people shouldn't join a contest (as a contestant or as a judge) if a friend or lover or family is willing to join. But what about very popular people on the forum, who won A LOT of contests and only their name is enough for them to win ? What about them? What should be done about that? I hate it when I spend hours on my entries and I'm really happy with it and I see I'm somewhere in the middle, like not the best but not the worst and I'm on the last place when the scores are announced? I dropped out one contest because it was very frustrating seing a poorly entry that looked distorted and more than ugly with the same number of points...

Stormy, I know you are fair and very organised. That's why you are my favorite host! :)

Let me respond, as someone who has won like 3 beauty contests... Screw it, i'm going to name drop, sorry if I offend. I started contests months ago and I SUCKED and you know what? Even when I spent hours on my pictures and I looked at the finished product in photoshop and thought to myself "Holy BATMANS BOXERS Cinamun!! Thats freakin awesome!!" I turned the entry in only to get one of the lowest scores and harsh critiques from judges. BUT YOU LEARN and you PRACTICE and USE what is suggested.

I see people like Joanne, Freelancer, Essa, Zora, Chantelle, Footballer17, I could name a LOT... these are the ladies (and Gent) I used to lurk and watch and take notes on their lighting, pose, prop placement, attention to detail and overall beauty, used what I learned and started winning my own damn contests...

Now i've dropped some names, but its NOT the name that wins, its the EXECUTION OF THE TASKS that gets the high points. Now remember, YOU may think you spent hours and your photos are damn good (and i've seen your work and you ARE good) but maybe the judges were looking for more. You cannot please them all.

Freelancer (for example) doesn't win because of her name, she wins because she's damn good, she has follow-through, she's creative, she's a freakin genius in my opinion. Throughout my contest career i've wanted my entries to be along the lines of hers, Essa's, Joannes and the others i've mentioned. I ALMOST CRIED REAL TEAR DUCT FORMED TEARS when I won AUM 10 because I spent forever on those pics and forever learning techniques and it finally paid off. And I competed against Free AND Joanne.

I look up to the high scorers, not because of the name. Here I was a virtual NOBODY, both Free and Joanne were in AUM during previous cycles, they had the experience and the knowledge, and ME?? CINAMUN?? A FREAKIN NEWB?? ... I.. won? *faints*

*wakes back up*

Seriously, its not the name. Its the talent. And having said that, when I enter a contest with Free, Essa or any of the others i've mentioned I know I need to be ON TOP OF MY GAME, try things out of the norm, get UBER creative because they are gonna come with the big guns and if I wanna place I gotta come with it.

Joannne has even judged me before in contests (mind you, I look up to her) and I didn't think "oh my God, I beat her before, will she hold a grudge and give me low scores?" NO!! She judged me because she knew my potential and pointed out flaws that I didnt even see... she knows good stuff which makes her a good judge. She didn't look at my entry and say "ooooohhhh its Cinamun yeah 100 points baby!!" She used a keen eye and judged my photos independent of who posted them (me).

Also, its kinda rude to say someone elses photo was "ugly" or badly "photoshopped" What if someone said that about yours? Keep that to yourself. Maybe the judges felt otherwise?

And to give you the benefit of the doubt Dreea, I have seen some entries
that leave me like this --> :blink:
and see their scores and i'm left like this --> :blink: :blink:

But the bottom line is... you're not judging it, you're competing in it. Each judge is different and don't ever be afraid to ask your host and judges about the scores you received compared to others. I've won contests but sometimes I look at my entry and i'm disgusted, the judges might be disgusted, but I tried. And if another entry scores better than me, badly photoshopped or ugly or whatever, so be it.

All I can tell you is keep working at it. I happen to enjoy your contest entries because your models are very exotic and beautiful.

*Disclaimer:
I use caps for emphasis, I promise i'm not yelling.
If any judges show favortism towards me, please stop and send me cookies instead.

Stormy_SC

24th Oct 2007, 09:02 PM

Cinamun

24th Oct 2007, 10:04 PM

I've lost or placed like 87th in wayyyyyyy more contests than i've won,
trust me. :rofl:

Stormy_SC

24th Oct 2007, 10:12 PM

I've never even been past the 2nd round myself! :giggler:

Catwalk_SC

24th Oct 2007, 10:15 PM

Since I run Project Supermodel and have been a judge for AUMs in the past, I figured I'd comment. :lol:

When you run a contest, you hope for the most that there is no favoritism. When I do Project Supermodel, the second all of the entries are in, before the rest of the judges vote, I put in my score. That way, there's no way I'll be even a little persuaded to vote as they do. That said, when I'm judging for anything, I judge as though I'm really giving these sim models a contract. To me it doesn't matter who did the photos, it matters on how the photos and the model look, since that's the whole point of a beauty contest.

I think people think there's lots of favoritism because some people are just really, really good. :lol:

Essa

24th Oct 2007, 11:10 PM

Seriously, its not the name. Its the talent.Amen.

Dreea , keep in mind that sometimes, even the greatest (I won't give names and I don't consider myself as great) don't win that much, except Free and Aleesha. :lol:

I don't think it's about winning or favoritism, contests should be a way to have fun, learn from the other contestants and improve oneself.
I do think that most of them are fairly judged. I hope so.

I maybe won less than ten contests included AUM7, was often placed 2nd or 3rd in beauty contests and, never made it to the final round in ANTM. :lol: Sometimes, judges decided I did well and sometimes I'm not "awesome" but it's part of the game.

As a judge, I use the host criterias. I don't judge after names, never did and never will.

shniveshnive

25th Oct 2007, 12:51 AM

Wow , everyone made some great points! I dont think its really happend to me because im a noob and i know it and im growing.

I dont really think theres necessarily "Favoritism" in some contests although a judge may be inlove with a model or whatever and say that and gives them good marks. They dont necessarily give them good marks , i think its cause of the talent .. etc

I swear ive seen a model who TONS of people like adored and she got out because the photoshopping wasnt bad but wasnt amazing and there were better ones! ;)

I also agree with catwalks technique. I used it too!
Judging first as if you were giving the models money or something to win and dont even like change it once its finish then add scores etc! :)

beeps

25th Oct 2007, 01:16 AM

As HP stated so eloquently in her post above, as long as there are humans involved bias will always play into anything. Expanding a bit...

1. Judges cannot be moderated 100% - What I mean is that on this site, we allow any member of the site to be a judge at least once or many, many times if they are prove themselves to be honest/a good judge. We could appoint a panel of pre-approved judges to judge each and every contest, but members wouldnt like that, and honestly neither would I. It would be so boring! It makes a contest fun and different to see new judges each time you enter a contest.

2. Favoritism is impossible to stop - Everyone who visits this site often enough makes friends, whether their relationship is defined simply as internet-friends or real life-friends. I have many friends on this site, and I have participated in those friends' contests before. From all the time Ive been active and/or a Mod on S2C, Ive entered somewhere between 20-30 contests and won first place in one. Nuff said.

3. REPORT REPORT REPORT!!! I cant stress this enough. If you think something "shady" is going on with judging or if you know your judges are voting for one particular person based on favoritism/friendship/etc, there is nothing stopping you from PMing me and explaining your concern. Every forum on this site encourages members to PM the moderator of that forum if a member has a funny feeling about something. Im not privy to all the judging/scores/etc in every contest, so I cannot moderate problems within those areas unless my attention is directed towards it - which is your responsibilty as a contest participant or general on-looker.

joanne_SC

25th Oct 2007, 01:38 AM

Awww thankies Cin!

An opinion is always going to be different. You may think your entries were the best, and your sim is the prettiest ... But it's other people's perception that counts!

I too have the people i look up to in contests, such as some of the oldies like pussycat, essa, charmaine, rainncandy, urbanique, and aleesha etc. These were the people i learnt from when i first started contests. But now i think i could learn something new from the new contestants around such as cin, footballer etc. After all i have judged them and competed against them and had my butt handed to me! But i don't think there was any favortism for them to win. Personally i don't think i'm that great anyway, though my contest history may prove otherwise.

I don't care much about winning anymore, of course it's nice to hear that your efforts are appreciated when you do get the win, but now i don't think it's really important. Though in the past i have been very disappointed with my scores only because i have literally spent hours on my work to get the worst score. I used to think it was a personal attack on me because there was often no comments to back up why i did so badly. Til i discovered a contest i had done recently that i just KNEW was fixed. I even had a small hint from the host because she was best buddies with the first and second place winner. I won't mention the host name, but live and learn ... i won't join one of their contests again.

I have been a judge on more than 20 occassions and i am not biased at at all about what i see. I do give my share of bad marks, but that is only based on my opinion of the over all photo. I've seen some really well done pictures and some pictures that are just 'the best the contestant can do' ... and i think this is why people think they are picked on and not liked because they dont recieve high scores like ones with the right editting programs and experience. Personally i judge on effort and attention to detail. I like to see something that is different and unique. And user names do not phase me at all ... they will still get judged based on how well they do. And i have no problems giving even an experienced contestant any critics.

As far as hosting ... i have hosted a lot of contests too! While i am fair I have noticed a pattern in some of the judges scores. I've had previous judges that i think have been judging on popularity and username. Especially when it sticks out like a sore thumb! So much that i can tell because they have given particular contestants perfect 10's as opposed to everyone elses low scores that were under 5. I noticed a pattern between round 1 and 2 ... and chose not to address this judge because i didn't want to accuse them, so instead i chose not to use their scores and called in an emergency judge. So being a host aswell ... i know there is favortism out there.

Personally i know people have left s2c because of unfairness towards contests. Some people choose not to enter them anymore because of the same thing. Some people are also overly cometative and are often the ones that are truly hurt by a bad comment or score.

I think everyone thinks they do well in contests until they are told otherwise. I think it's okay to take it as a personal attack on their work because they did spend the effort making it. But like it has been quote already many times on the thread, it's about talent ... and how good you can make your pictures look. To see a ingame picture to a beautifully photoshopped picture ... isn't it obvious to what judges will think is better? :D

I too think i have marked my longest post too! :blink:

Cinamun

25th Oct 2007, 01:59 AM

I don't care much about winning anymore, of course it's nice to hear that your efforts are appreciated when you do get the win, but now i don't think it's really important.

Well put to you and boolPropped.

You get a rush when you win, and quite honestly, when I first started joining contests that was my only goal, to at least make top three, but that took a LONG time LOL. But for me, its just FUN! I like playing around in different photo editing programs and I like playing around in bodyshop sculpting faces and such. I like to see the creativity in others. So in these days when I enter a contest it's moreso for fun, don't care about winning. The tasks are so creative sometimes that i'm challenging myself to test my creativity. I may not win it, but I definitely had fun with it. I learn new stuff everytime I enter a contest now. I'm still learning.

And you also made a good reference to all the hosts out there who may be reading this: If you see a scoring pattern and you feel something fishy, call in an EJ and use your best judgement.

Dreea

25th Oct 2007, 01:20 PM

Everyone made a good point. Thank you for responding so well at this thread. I'm waiting for more opinions. :)

Nouk_SC

25th Oct 2007, 04:33 PM

I suck at deadlines, therefore I hardly ever enter a contest. I have not seen favouritism, simply because I don't know all the people too well, or who's hanging with who. I don't even expect it. That's naive :) But I don't enter contests anymore so what's it matter :)

FurryPanda

26th Oct 2007, 12:58 AM

I judge alot, and hehe, I always leave comments, perfectly honest ones.... Wow, do people not like that!! I don't play favorites, heck there are only two people I rember from contest to contest, and one or two freinds regularly in them. And I oftimes judge those people a nip harder because I've seen them do utterly styling things. Oh, and if taking off overall points because something not specifically adressed is bad (like writing *shudder*) is favoritism, then I should never be allowed to judge. Ever.

But really its all about whatever entry they produce for the round in question. If someone has a really bad first round and they improve spectacularly, then I'll score to reflect that, even though I won't think about the first round's entry. Or vice versa.

Freelancer_SC

31st Oct 2007, 09:44 AM

Awww Cin, you bring tears to my eyes... I could never hope to be half the creative genius you are!

Back to the point of this discussion... I would tend to agree with the general vibe that even though we do our best to prevent favoritism and don't play favorites ourselves, we've all seen it happen. One incident standing out in my mind took place almost 2 years ago. I was in a contest where 3 of us went into the final round; one of the others (Apacherose) and I later went on to become really good friends and remain so to this day. Apache placed third and I placed second, and some time after the contest ended we were discussing it and she said she thought I had it in the bag (and I thought Apache was a sure shot for the win). I was even contacted by the host (not a friend at the time) after the final rankings were posted, and she said that since the scores were "so close" between the winner and me, she was going to offer me a "consolation prize" under the table. (Interestingly, it turns out that the person who DID win that particular contest, with an entry generally considered - even by a mod we later discussed it with - inferior to Apache's and mine was good friends with the host!)

That being said, I will also agree with Joanne's comment on inconsistent scoring. As someone who has been hosting and competing for quite a while, I've noticed there usually isn't a huge difference in between someone's scores - for example, if Contestant 1 receives a score of 6.5/10 from Judge A and a 7/10 from Judge B, it's going to look kind of fishy if Judge C gives them a 10/10. (I've been in that position too - was in a contest a while back where I consistently received very high marks from 2 judges and very low from the third) Part of that, I think, may come from people being too liberal with handing out high scores. I never give a perfect score unless an entry truly takes my breath away, and it's extremely frustrating to try and come up with meaningful ranking when the scores you receive for every single contestant are 9/10, 10/10, 10/10, 10/10, 10/10, 9/10, 10/10, etc. (Had that happen too! Dropped that judge like a hot potato.)

Another thing that really grinds my gears - and where I think favoritism may come in to play - is when an entry that was clearly done in about 5 minutes with the use of posing hacks is ranked higher than one that had a lot of effort put in to it. (Don't abuse hacks; they have feelings, too.) If I'm judging, and the majority of a contestant's entry utilizes hacks, I'll rank them very low. All these hacks and photoshopping and you kids and your technology makes me nostalgic for the days when all the poses were obtained by interaction, this (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/130/female0016vp4.jpg) Peggy hair was the most beautiful thing ever created for sims, and merely adding borders to pictures was considered "too much photoshopping." It's nice to win, but more satisfying is knowing that hard work is recognized. (I've been in contests where I've had to work my butt off for second or third place, and others where I've won by taking a nap.) Along with overuse of posing hacks, another pet peeve is when scores don't reflect things like whether or not someone followed the rules! As far as I'm concerned, if the rules call for a head-to-toe shot in front of a fireplace, you darn well better turn in a picture that has a head-to-toe shot in front of a fireplace if you expect to continue in the contest. Following rules isn't difficult, and it's unfair to the other contestants when someone is more or less "rewarded" for receiving a higher score when they can't take ten seconds to know what their objective is.

I think the best way to avoid favoritism is to be proactive as a host. For example, if you have X judges, chances are pretty good that if one of them is consistently going to give their favorite unfairly high scores, the other X-1 judges won't. Judges themselves also need to be aware of what they're really judging on and make an effort to establish credibility. I really like the rule on this site that states anyone who hosts a contest must have been a judge or participant in another contest. The best way to understand how things work is to go out and actually do it! :beer:

MissTech

31st Oct 2007, 11:06 AM

I've been a member here for quite a while now, and pretty much all I do is stick to the contest forums. As someone who runs, judges and occasionally enters contests, I certainly have my opinions on the topic, but can only speak for those which I have been personally involved. Though some may have 'friends' in the community, on this site, I cannot say that I do.

First let me say, if you have never run a contest, it is NOT as easy or fun as you may think. It is sometimes very difficult to get people to judge for you in the first place. Then there are times someone offers to judge and disappears on you... leaving you really in a lurch. Since I am not really friends with anyone on here, that has nothing to do with whom I pick to judge my contests. However, if someone has judged for me previously and was good at it, I will definitely pick them again if they offer. I also tend to choose people who have competed in my contests before as judges for subsequent cycles, because they are familiar with the contest, having participated themselves.

I have also judged several times for other contests... not because I was friends with the host, but for other reasons. I will most certainly judge for someone running a contest that has judged for me. It's called 'returning the favor'. I have also judged contests in which I have participated, because I am familiar with the contest and what is expected from the entries.

And though I will agree that when you see certain members names in the contest lists, the instinct is to turn tail and run.... not because these members are favored to win contests but because they are freaking good! And to say that they win because of friendships and favoritism (though I am sure it does happen), is a disservice to all those winners who worked hard and earned their wins.

Finally, let's cut a break to the people who do judge these contests... After all they are taking time out of their lives to help the host and the contestants have a good contest. Most get nothing for their efforts, not even a 'thank you', and most (I believe) have nothing vested in the contest so there is nothing in it for them for 'fixing' a winner. Perhaps those of you who've never done judging, but have complaints about it, should step up and give it a try... put yourselves out there for a change.

PS. I agree with Free about hosts being proactive with their contests if they see or suspect something is going on. I personally think if you have one judge lowballing contestants, the best way to tackle that is either replace the judge (if you can), use an EJ's scores in place, or the way I handle scoring.... by averaging the scores...

Dreea

31st Oct 2007, 11:08 AM

Freelancer, you are so right. I hate it, too when I work on photos and see other contestants who only pasted the sim on a background with higher scores...

Cinamun

4th Nov 2007, 02:54 PM

I hosted one of the largest contests on InSimenator, the Miss InSimenator.net pageant, there were like a gazzillion entries and the winner was featured on the site's banner. It was my first time ever hosting a contest, I think there were like 65+ entries.

IT WAS THEE HARDEST THING EVER!!!!! LOL I literally sat down with pen, paper, calculator and adjusted my glasses when those scores came in. Luckily I had very fair judges with significant judging history that helped me out. I think the hard work it took to host that contest turned me away from hosting :rofl: not permanently though.

So I definitely understand what the hosts are saying about the hard work involved. And Free I DEFINITELY understand what you mean about the pose hacks. And MissTech I definitely agree about seeing some names and turning and running.
I actually LEARNED from a gal on InSim named Buffy who I used to turn and run from... (I started out in contests on InSim) and she always left me speechless, I entered contests with her (only to get my butt handed to me) but the techniques i learned along the way are priceless to someone who really wanted to be as good as her.

As hosts we just have to watch scoring patterns and question whatever may look "iffy" to ya.

Psy10

4th Nov 2007, 06:49 PM

Cinamun that reminds me of Sims 2 Community High School cycle 1. There were over 70 entries. Judging and compiling the scores took 2 days. There were actually people who were impatient about it! :lol: They really had no idea the amount of time it took. I love hosting contests, especially when I know that the contestants are having fun.

ETA:

Most get nothing for their efforts, not even a 'thank you'...

This I don't understand. I always thank my judges for a job well done. They're doing me a service. Most of the judges I've used throughout my contests are fair, reliable, and have past experience. I don't think I've ever had a bad judge.

zizismommy_SC

4th Nov 2007, 07:12 PM

Another thing that really grinds my gears - and where I think favoritism may come in to play - is when an entry that was clearly done in about 5 minutes with the use of posing hacks is ranked higher than one that had a lot of effort put in to it. (Don't abuse hacks; they have feelings, too.) If I'm judging, and the majority of a contestant's entry utilizes hacks, I'll rank them very low.
Along with overuse of posing hacks...

I co sign that 100%!!

And a general statement, while I do think there's been favoritism here in the past, not so much recently, i've seen worse on other forums. I even followed a contest where a person won without even FINISHING their final entry. :confused: :hmm: And I KNOW I wasn't the only one who thought that was shady. But oh well. *goes back to lurk mode*

Psy10

4th Nov 2007, 07:16 PM

sakrayami

4th Nov 2007, 07:31 PM

I doubt all the judges are not biased. I have been a judge in some contests lately, and i am not even looking at the profile when i give scores. I have the impression people are satisfied, so i can't complain. I think the contestants deserve scores and feedback for hard work. I have scratched my head more than once cause of some judges scoring on some populars on here. So if i think there are favorims/friendship, yes i do. Specially in the bigger contests. At least, that is the impression i have.
On the other hand, i trust many judges too, but not everyone.

I am as a judge allergic to very blurry pics, in ordinary photocontests that
would never be tolerated, if using the blurring-tool, one have to make it
an effect who fits the task and pics, that is not always easy.

FurryPanda

4th Nov 2007, 07:50 PM

o.O. I feel very ignorant now. I can't tell the difference between photoshopped and manipulated or whatever it is. At least on an intellectual level. If something is not aesthetically pleasing I'll mark off for it, but I'm sure that some artificial poses look nice and that some natural ones look awful. And I'll only comment on that, not the method. Oh but I do notice blurry lines and contortionistic stuff. I assume thats photoshop. But yeah...

sakrayami

5th Nov 2007, 07:44 PM

I think people think there's lots of favoritism because some people are just really, really good. :lol:

I don't want to stay on top with this debate. But believe me, i have seen
some pics with some few populars/friends or whatever, beeing scored very high, and their pics were not good at all. There are so many populars here, so i do not want to mention any name, time or place or if i ever participated in that contest. If i see that again, i will as boolprooped said: report it.
I was eliminated from joannes contest, cycle 4. I didn't pass the aps. And i know why. Course i did the work in one hour or so, i turned in crap. Hopefully, those who know me, know i can do better, so i understand why i couldn't go further. At least, i like to believe that was the reason. Another thing, i totally agree with HP and BP, i would
say the same if i was that good in english :)

honeynutcows_SC

5th Nov 2007, 07:48 PM

i do think judges play favouritism in applications if there are app elliminations i do think some jusges think oh soandso always does great in contests and while they havnt got the best application ill score them high because i know what they can do which i thinks wrong i think it should be judged on the pictures not the name, saying that most judges are fair and unbiased and only around one in a hundred are unfair

Cinamun

5th Nov 2007, 08:27 PM

First, what exactly is a "popular"? :blink:

i do think judges play favouritism in applications if there are app elliminations i do think some judges think oh soandso always does great in contests and while they havnt got the best application ill score them high because i know what they can do which i thinks wrong i think it should be judged on the pictures not the name, saying that most judges are fair and unbiased and only around one in a hundred are unfair

Secondly, I believe in application phases, which mostly include a headshot and a bodyshot, the judges are mostly going off of the beauty of the sim. And let's face it, although we may think we have created the most beautiful sim, the judges may not think so. How can one application be "better" than the other if they are ALL headshots and bodyshots on plain backgrounds? That's why I say the overall beauty of the sim is most likely what the judges are scoring in the application phase of a contest.

I had a beautiful sim that I created once, she was drop dead gorgeous to me, but she was eliminated during the application phase... :( So trust me, there wasn't any "wow it's Cinamun!!" during that contest LOL

Psy10

5th Nov 2007, 09:21 PM

I don't believe in app. eliminations. I want to give everyone a chance to show me what they can do. Anyone can take a head shot and a body shot. It's not that complicated.

When I'm asked to judge applications, I just go by the Sim's beauty. :meh:

Oh and another thing I hate about app. eliminations is someone getting through to round one who drops out or never shows up again. Grr... :eviltongu That spot could have went to someone who actually cared.

Cher

5th Nov 2007, 09:23 PM

I agree with most of you and some I don't! I have been here for almost three years and I have never seen the favouritism as bad as I have for the past year. I don't thinl all the contests are run on favouritism, or else I wouldn't join. I DO believe many are winning because of their popularity and because they have won a few contests! The contests are getting very fierce out here, like I have never seen before! Sometimes I feel totally intimidated and VERY insecure! I only started feeling this way in the past year! It's supposed to be fun! But I have to admit, it's not so much fun anymore. But I join to relax and I never enter a contest with thoughts of winning! I have won my share and I was happy with that! But if I don't win, I won't have a break down lol I know who's who out here, and I know what I see. What really bothers me is. I always check who the judges are before I enter, sometimes I'm wrong in my judgement because the person is new and I don't know them. But did you ever see some of their work? I'm not being rude or cruel and I'm not one of the best out here! However, if they can't make a great picture for themselves, then what gives them the right to judge? I'm being totally honest wit you! It kind of makes me sad about all this and I'm glad theres a post on it! Maybe the contest forum should be split into two. One for amateurs and one for the pros lol! I think people who have never won or never hosted a contest or never even entered one, shouldn't be a judge. But this is just my silly opinion! It doesn't mean because they didn't win any contests means their not good. I have seen many of the populars win and have seen someone who has never won a contest do better then that person! Go figure! Look the contests are supposed to be fun and it's only a game! But I do agree with the favouritism 100%. And there is nothing anyone can to. So we need to deal with it. Just check out your host and judges before you enter. I hope you don't think this post is rude! I'm really not a rude person, well only when I have to be hehehe! :anime: I can always pick the winners out in almost every contest! I know whats up out here. But I'm getting too old to let this bother me. I just want to have fun :)

romyhorse

5th Nov 2007, 09:30 PM

^I think I know the contest you're talking about. :lol:

As for posing hacks and people who simmerize. I score lower on it if it's done for the sack of doing it. I find unnatural sim poses ugly and often times unflattering. Another judging peeve of mine is people who over sharpen their pics! Once is enough people!

Yes! I hate it when they have their heads on backwards :lol: or have double-jointed arms and legs, or one body part is totally out of proportion :lol: It's not pretty, people!

If I was judging I would mark down for that, but I've seen people get really high marks and I'm like "woah!". I think everyone looks for something different when judging and if someone judges differently from how you would you might think they are biased, but actually they just have different views to you.

Psy10

5th Nov 2007, 09:32 PM

Cinamun

5th Nov 2007, 09:34 PM

I just want to have fun :)

*ding ding ding*

Me too!

Cher

5th Nov 2007, 09:51 PM

I don't think you're being rude, Michele_D but I do disagree with you. That argument is a fallacy. It's like saying if you've never made a movie or written a book, how can you critic one? I've entered a few contests and I honestly think I suck but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to judge or host one.

I think you just might have taken my comments a bit wrong. And you DO NOT SUCK! I often wonder why you and a bunch of others that do some great work never win! Please don't take my comments wrong :) I have my opinion and everyone else has theirs. I better get out of here before I get myself into trouble again :smash:

kinneer_SC

5th Nov 2007, 10:07 PM

I have not followed the whole thread but I have to wonder when does personal preference stops and favoritisms starts. We all have our likes and dislikes.

Dreea

5th Nov 2007, 10:33 PM

kineer, I think judges are not supposed to have preferences. They have to judge a photo by it's quality and overall look, not by their preferences. My creativity and my ideas are mine and I see ,,beauty`` with other eyes than the judges...they have to judge my idea and the overall look. Their preferences should be in their entries, not in mine. I hate it when a judge says something like I would've liked to see a shadow...it's just an example...I wanted the entry to represent my creativity and what I think about the theme given and I want that to be judged. I don`t think I should add something. It's my opinion, judge that, judge my idea and the overall look and nothing else.

Cinamun

5th Nov 2007, 10:45 PM

I must say, you make a darn good point Dreea and I would tend to agree with you. However, if it weren't for some judges telling me to try something or add something, I probably wouldnt have won anything.

Seriously, The very first contest I entered was a story-telling contest about following a sim through their life-stages. Well I liked putting lots of windows in my houses at the time (still do) and one judge told me "Cin, pay attention to the details, why aren't there any trees outside of the windows? makes it look so plain...and you should get rid of those gridlines.."
So I took that and ran with it and now whenever I take pictures of a sim inside of a home maybe in front of a window, I add a shrub or lamp post or something. I think that suggestion really paid off for me because it taught me to add more detail.

In the end it *is* our creativity that matters but sometimes those extra suggestions often help.

honeynutcows_SC

5th Nov 2007, 10:53 PM

Cinamun

5th Nov 2007, 11:02 PM

cin with yours and psys earlier post thats why i think favouritism is in apps because noone can show creativity, so sometimes they think well we know they will be creative in other rounds. I still stick to some people go on names and think well this isnt their best but they are soandso so they have to stay in. I also think favourites get the bad side as well. as some people think well in other contests shes done a lot better than in this one. which i think is wrong i think it should be on that picture and that picture alone, and can also be on there earlier entrys for that contest and that contest only. not what people have done in the past.
p.s off topic but cinnamon i love your yearbook link ive fell for it twice lol

I totally agree with you on some points. But I really believe its the sims beauty that gets judged in those applications. But imagine if there were no application cuts... and 67 people actually made it to Round one of MOTY Cycle 4 :blink: poor judges... LOL

I really want my entries to be judged independant of anything i've won or entered in before. And I know certain judges who will do that and no matter how good your pic is, they will still examine it and find something that could have worked "better" no matter who the person is that that made the photo... maybe there should just be more judges like that. Or maybe we could all make a vow to judge at least one contest! LOL

I'm so glad you love my yearbook photo, its so embarrassing! :p :rofl:

joanne_SC

5th Nov 2007, 11:08 PM

I run one of the most popular contests on s2c that reaches 60 or more applicants every cycle, and i have had my share of shady judges in the first couple. My current contest has 32 current contestants and it had 67. The next cut will be massive and i completely agree with what freelancer is saying about being unique. Generally i dont appreciate an ordinary photo anymore. Sometimes even the in game maxis poses bug me. I must manipulate everything in some way for me to even like my own stuff. So naturally when i judge i look for something different and a person who has a good eye for attention to detail. Believe it or not i rarely give perfect scores because i can always find something i can pick on (i think alot of people know me for nit picking as a judge)

Even after a massive application cut in MOTY recently there were no complaints, just a teeny bit of disappointment (which is quite normal) ... so i dont think anyone thought they were unfairly judged :D

As far as being in contests, ive sure had my share of let downs and i dont think popularity has anything to do with it. I've been beaten by people who have never won a contest before so i think usernames dont matter.

ALSO ...

I dont know whether this is going to sound biased or not, but im completely generalising (it doesnt mean all). Ive been in contests that have been runned by the younger members on the community and they don't seem to be handled well. The judging can be erratic and inconsistent. Plus very poorly organised. Also younger judges (not all) generally give good marks for everything even if its bad. I dont think they have had enough contest expeirence to handle the job.

Stormy_SC

5th Nov 2007, 11:13 PM

cin with yours and psys earlier post thats why i think favouritism is in apps because noone can show creativity, so sometimes they think well we know they will be creative in other rounds. I still stick to some people go on names and think well this isnt their best but they are soandso so they have to stay in. I also think favourites get the bad side as well. as some people think well in other contests shes done a lot better than in this one. which i think is wrong i think it should be on that picture and that picture alone, and can also be on there earlier entrys for that contest and that contest only. not what people have done in the past.
p.s off topic but cinnamon i love your yearbook link ive fell for it twice lol

You've made an excellent point. :blink: When I did my first beauty contest, I had a total of 27 applicants and was only looking for 24 so 3 were eliminated. When I PM'd the judges, I asked them to judge them on beauty and creativity. I think next time, I'll either have no eliminations or just have my judges score them on an overall basis, such as of a score from 1 to 10 or something.

The only thing with not having eliminations in your application round is that you may have too many applicants.

Dreea

5th Nov 2007, 11:14 PM

Michele, I agree with you about making contests for amatours and pros. Where can this be proposed?

Cinamun

5th Nov 2007, 11:17 PM

honeynutcows_SC

5th Nov 2007, 11:17 PM

,I'll either have no eliminations or just have my judges score them on an overall basis, such as of a score from 1 to 10 or something.

The only thing with not having eliminations in your application round is that you may have too many applicants.
what i think in applications is to always have a freeshot a freeshot can show creativity and isnt just looking pretty its having substance
and with the younger hosts comments i half agree i think any age there are people who dont realise what a contest entails and then wish they could just close it so they dont try i am only 14 but although i had some judging problems i think i had things in good timing but i also think that was to do with my personality not my age

EDIT: I also totally disagree with the amatuers thing i think people should be able to enter what they want i would be considered an amatuer but i love entering big contests evn though ill be first to be elliminated i love the imagination for rounds and organiseation which is what draws the pros in

Stormy_SC

5th Nov 2007, 11:22 PM

what i think in applications is to always have a freeshot a freeshot can show creativity and isnt just looking pretty its having substance
and with the younger hosts comments i half agree i think any age there are people who dont realise what a contest entails and then wish they could just close it so they dont try i am only 14 but although i had some judging problems i think i had things in good timing but i also think that was to do with my personality not my age

That's what I did.

Yeah I don't think age has anything to do with it. I've seen some pretty hosts and judges who were honeynut's age and did an awesome job and then there were people who were my age (22) or older who did poorly. :shrug: I just think it has to do with their patience and common sense. As long as you're fair to everyone, have the time for it, and submit the rounds and/or scores on time, it's really not that hard. For me at least.

Cher

5th Nov 2007, 11:43 PM

Michele, I agree with you about making contests for amatours and pros. Where can this be proposed?

Dreea, I was basically joking about that one! I LOVE a challenge (what can I say, I'm a Leo :|) and I would enter the pro's contest before I entered the amatours. I learn from the people that do well and ask alot of questions. And yes, there is a contest for people without stars. I started the first one last yeat and someone else picked it up and I was happy they did! I had to ask the mods for permission to do that. It was something different.

FurryPanda, I maybe wrong, but weren't you the judge that had cruel comments when judging? If it wasn't you, I'm sorry. But I think it was Stormy's contest if I'm not mistaken..............

FurryPanda

6th Nov 2007, 03:12 AM

Yeah Michele. But in my own defense, I didn't think anything I had said was off the line, but then again I had just gotten back from I.T.S and was still in that mindset. Hindsight... Anyhow, I did make as public an apology for that as I thought was prudent and I consider it to be in the past. Personal apologies to you if you didn't receive it. And again, no offense intended.

Anyway, back on topic. What people are saying about younger judges scoring over generously, i mean I think that its worse not too. From a statistical standpoint as long as their over scoring is consistent it won't affect standings, and for someone to get a rock bottom score (less than 10-20%) its a rather large slap in the face. When I judge I try never ever to score anyone in say, less than the thirtieth percentile, because almost no one IS less than that. I think once in six contests I had to score someone overall less than that mark. And probably thrice in individual categories. I figure that whatever pattern you use as long as your consistent, at the very least in that contest, then its alright because the weight is the same. If that made any sense.

Scout

6th Nov 2007, 04:18 AM

Why not instead of eliminating applicants that you just only accept the first x number of applicants?

What people are saying about younger judges scoring over generously, i mean I think that its worse not too. From a statistical standpoint as long as their over scoring is consistent it won't affect standings,

It really depends on how the scores are treated. One judge with a large variation in score can over ride multiple judges who only give high scores.

I think that by using more than 3 judges and mathematically balancing the scores you can at least overcome some prejudice, on the rare, rare, rare occasion there is any.

beeps

6th Nov 2007, 04:32 AM

Well I have a question for everyone who has complained in this thread about unfair judges: Why oh why havent these instances been brought to my attention?

As stated many times, there is no way I can be privy to private judging's goings-on. Judging is secretive and is usually transmitted via PM or email between hosts and judges, hence the reason I cannot actively moderate every instance of judging period (plus there arent enough hours in a day).

Im certainly not trying to be rude but point blank... If you didnt or wont bring favoritism-smelling-judging to my attention, you have no right to complain here or anywhere else on the site. Period.

zizismommy_SC

6th Nov 2007, 04:40 AM

I think the purpose of the debate room is for people to be able to speak their minds on whatever the topic is. So they do have a right to complain. :)

sakrayami

6th Nov 2007, 04:40 AM

MicheleD, i have never won a contest, but i started to advance, lol. I was
placed 3rd in Miss Curves. Can't complain on that. Back to judging, i was
freaking scared to be a judge for the first time. But after some experience,
i feel confident enough to judge fair. I do not create sims 2 stuff official,
reason: i am too busy. Maybe creating would increase chances to win?
I simply do not know. I have photobackground and artschools, so i am
pretty sure i know what i am doing when i judge a contest. I am also checking judges before i enter a contest, i am very suspicious. And i wonder
if that person is mature for such tasks. But i think they are doing fine, one never actually know what they are looking for, we are all so different.

Well, i do not have a need for showing off creations or making a yearbook,
i am just here to have some fun, that's all. :heyhey:

Mumo_SC

6th Nov 2007, 04:48 AM

Miss Starless Beauty is always a success and its an incredible idea, I think there's been what, 2 cycles? it always draws a crowd and gives so-called amateurs a chance to win their first star and receive positive feedback along the way.

Thankyou for the compliment.

That is one reason why I decided to make a "Starless" contest, for the simple fact that it does give those who are new to contests, or those who have entered quite a few without success of winning a star, be able to have that chance without feeling the threatened *so to speak* of a multi-star winning contestant taking out 1st again. And I absolutely love knowing at the end of the contest, the winner who has taken the star is a happy as a pig in poo.

On a personal opinion with contests....I have had some rude comments, and what not, and instead of getting upset, I just refuse to enter a contest if a particular member/s or judge/s is in it. Nor do I enter a contest with a unfair host now. Once bitten twice shy. But when the host does not inform judges of changes to the rules and then points are deducted because of that, and then your eliminated because the judges think that you didn't follow the rules, even though the host said it was ok to do something a certain way, that is one of my pet peeves.

But all in all, I enjoy contests, and if I see someone entering a contest who I know is really good I will enter the contest just for the competition, to see if I can excel better than previous ones. RomyHorse to me is just the bomb when it comes to decorating contests and one day hopefully I will beat him. But until then, I just learn by my mistakes, take notes, and look at others work for inspiration.

Thats my little ditty.

migamoo_SC

6th Nov 2007, 04:50 AM

I think the purpose of the debate room is for people to be able to speak their minds on whatever the topic is. So they do have a right to complain. :)
I don't think that's what she meant. I think she's just saying that if you just complain, but not actually do anything- bring it to the attention of someone who can, what's the point in complaining in the first place?

Cinamun

6th Nov 2007, 04:59 AM

You're more than welcome Mumo, I wish Miss Starless was around when I was starting out here LOL Great idea.

Why not instead of eliminating applicants that you just only accept the first x number of applicants?

Some contests on InSim do that. The only problem that some have run into with this idea is that some people may really want to enter, but cannot get to a PC/laptop in time to get an entry in. So giving a few days for apps helps them out, gives them time. Some contests may be so popular that apps reach 25 in one day, so although the idea is a good one, it may not work for all if the contest is as popular as some i've seen.

Zaggytiddies

6th Nov 2007, 05:01 AM

I really think that as long as you think about your entry and really make it your own... it doesn't matter what the judges say... cause everyone viewing the thread knows you rock! :) I have had judges not get my ... hmmm humor shall we say? I'd get consistent scores from other judges but I just couldn't please that one... :coughdiscountsuperherocough: ... lol I don't think that this was intentional/personal though... I really just think they hated my stuff... :lol: I think it's also about knowing what certain contests are looking for. You can get away with certain things in a 'funny' contest that would just look silly in a 'beauty' contest.

on the other hand

I have hosted contests where i've gotten scores back and gone... 'Whoa!!! Why did you give that person such a low score!?' and PMed the judge about it and they said they totally stuck by their score and explained why it was what it was... I had to respect that... it is, after all, their opinion. So... I'm not saying it doesn't happen.. I'm just saying I've never really experienced it personally. I have also had a contest with no eliminations until the last round... that worked out well for me cause people took themselves out and anyone who was really interested in continuing could. I don't think that would work if you had 60 + apps though :)

Also... about the stars
Sooooooooooo many people drop out of contests (or maybe just my contests... j/k) so sometimes some silly beginner gets a star just cause they stuck it out. (like me :))

Freelancer_SC

6th Nov 2007, 05:18 AM

I don't think it has as much to do with the age of the host as the maturity, if that makes any sense. One of the best hosts this community has ever seen was 16-17 when she was running contests where 40 contestants was a low turnout and 60 was about average. :)

As far as why this is coming up now... honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if people were afraid to come forward until Dreea brought it up. That's certainly why I kept quiet about my issue for almost two years. I'm reminded of something they tell us in physics: if you don't understand something, ask a question, because odds are other people are wondering the same thing. However, it's so easy to feel like an idiot when it looks like everyone else understands, and even more so when you do muster up the courage to ask "How do we go about normalizing that thing?" and your professor says, "Same as anything else - psi star psi." (That totally happened to me in quantum today.) If the results of a contest come in and everyone is like "woohoo go winner!" but you have a feeling that something is amiss, it's scary to speak up because you'll feel like everyone will just think you're a sore loser. There have been many times I've been able to tell who the winner of a contest will be right after the application round, and that just ain't right.

I've had to instruct my judges in the past to not give high scores. When every contestant gets a 9/10 or 10/10 on their pictures, you can't go anywhere... usually I do a ranking system in my contests to get around that, but because of the nature of a set of contests I'm running on another forum, can't do it that way. Remember, judges - it's okay to give low scores! Just be consistent, know your criteria, and be able to back up your choices.

honeynutcows_SC

6th Nov 2007, 05:26 AM

I've had to instruct my judges in the past to not give high scores. When every contestant gets a 9/10 or 10/10 on their pictures, you can't go anywhere...
i dont get this can someone explain to be whats the diffrence if someone gives a 7 to the lowest and a 10 to the highest to a person who gives a 4 to the lowest and an 8 to the highest i think as long as scores are consistent it dosnt matter after all the scores will all just be a bit higher i mean i can understand when scores are odd eg everyone gets a 6 and one person gets a a 10 but if everyone gets a 9 (as long as everyones as good as eachother) whats the big deal

Cher

6th Nov 2007, 10:16 AM

I agree with many of you on this. I don't think the age of a judge plays a big part in it. I have had judges 13 years old that were great! AND never won a contest and I always wondered why! I also want to bring this out and it just might get me in some trouble, but hey it's a debate thread and no names, however I know who they are..... We keep talking about the judges, but I have seen plenty of Hosts that have their favorites too! I believe we all have our favorites when running a contest! Thats why I never ever judged my own contests! I also always put a note up in all my contests saying- if you have a favorite sim and think she's wonderful, please PM that person and tell them. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that makes some peiople feel like, why go on? This can't be helped, I know that! I get the compliment on some of my sims and I always say, thank you and I also say, I think all the sims out here are wonderful! But thats just me. Because I know how it can hurt to spend hours on a sim and get no feedback but someone else does.

boolPropped, I do agree with you! But I'm just not that way. And I truly thought maybe someone else might bring it to a mods attention. However, I think we all should keep this in mind for the future! I don't know what could be done and I don't like to squeal and or kiss and tell! Thats why I like the idea of this thread. Now you know whats going on :)

sakrayami, I have a terrible habit of "sometimes" checking out someone's work from other contests if I don't know them :devil2: I like your pics alot!

I think all this started when they started giving out the stars. I think it was a wonderful idea. But some take it too serious! I had to wait almost a year before I won my first contest! But I kept trying and got alittle better aand watched and tried to learn (I'm still learning and don't know alot about PS) So what I'm trying to say is that I see people only out here a day- week-month getting mad they did not win. Be patient I say, your day will come! There are some waiting longer!

Dreea

6th Nov 2007, 10:34 AM

boolPropped, a few months ago, I pm`ed you with a problem I had in a contest. I had the same score with a very ugly entry. Not trying to be rude, but the entry was so distorted and not well erased and such...and I've worked my butt to make mine look at least clean and nice. And you told me there is no difference between my entry and that entry. I wasn't thinking at favoritism back then, because maybe I didn't know. But...I no longer have the guts to report. (It's not an acusation, it's just a fact that happened to me and made me feel like sh*t)

Vaalyah

6th Nov 2007, 10:38 AM

boolPropped, of course noone can show you proof of a biased judge, but I can confirm you that there are times when I ask myself "How can this one has won???" and I am not speaking about contests I've entered. I found fun reading what a contest "produces" so I follow even contests where I am not in... and I can assure you that one xxx judges a contest where yyy is entering, the result is somehow obvious.
IE: it has happened to me in more than a contests where I was judging. I usually am quite "rude" with my comments (ok, I am fair with comments and not a hypocrite!, but of course, since English is not my mother language, I know few words to express my point without sounding rude, that is the reason I always apologize before starting comments :D ), because I take seriously the thing "Be sincere, so they can improve", but my scores are usually the higher. More than once has happened that people, reading my comments, started screaming with anger, and why? Because other judges simply said: "Oh, good work, I like what you have done!". The facts were that my scores where highest, but of course, people couldn't know that!

zizismommy_SC

6th Nov 2007, 10:59 AM

I don't think that's what she meant. I think she's just saying that if you just complain, but not actually do anything- bring it to the attention of someone who can, what's the point in complaining in the first place?

Like I said the point here is to "debate" the issue at hand. If having this debate brings the issue out into the open then maybe it WILL encourage people to report this kind of behavior. But telling people not to complain doesn't help in the matter.

Scout

6th Nov 2007, 04:37 PM

i dont get this can someone explain to be whats the diffrence if someone gives a 7 to the lowest and a 10 to the highest to a person who gives a 4 to the lowest and an 8 to the highest i think as long as scores are consistent it dosnt matter after all the scores will all just be a bit higher i mean i can understand when scores are odd eg everyone gets a 6 and one person gets a a 10 but if everyone gets a 9 (as long as everyones as good as eachother) whats the big deal

If you have 3 judges and 2 of them score them high and in the same order if the third judge scores them with a wider range in the exact opposite order they will override the other 2 judges.

J1 + J2 + J3 = Total -> Rank
50 + 49 + 30 = 129 -> 5
49 + 48 + 35 = 132 -> 4
48 + 46 + 40 = 134 -> 3
47 + 45 + 45 = 137 -> 2
46 + 42 + 50 = 138 -> 1

Looking at the scores you can see that the range doesn't need to be that large to make such a thing happen. This isn't because someone is trying to manipulate scores, it happens just because of natural differences in judging/scoring.

honeynutcows_SC

6th Nov 2007, 06:04 PM

agh i get it now thankyou for clearing that up

romyhorse

6th Nov 2007, 07:36 PM

If you have 3 judges and 2 of them score them high and in the same order if the third judge scores them with a wider range in the exact opposite order they will override the other 2 judges.

J1 + J2 + J3 = Total -> Rank
50 + 49 + 30 = 129 -> 5
49 + 48 + 35 = 132 -> 4
48 + 46 + 40 = 134 -> 3
47 + 45 + 45 = 137 -> 2
46 + 42 + 50 = 138 -> 1

Looking at the scores you can see that the range doesn't need to be that large to make such a thing happen. This isn't because someone is trying to manipulate scores, it happens just because of natural differences in judging/scoring.

I am using a ranking system to score my contest to avoid just that, I think it evens out the differences between the judges.

But all in all, I enjoy contests, and if I see someone entering a contest who I know is really good I will enter the contest just for the competition, to see if I can excel better than previous ones. RomyHorse to me is just the bomb when it comes to decorating contests and one day hopefully I will beat him.

:blush: Actually I do the same thing with eedgan and coldfloral :D (and I'm a she by the way, just too lazy to change my profile ;)).

Scout

6th Nov 2007, 07:40 PM

I am using a ranking system to score my contest to avoid just that, I think it evens out the differences between the judges.

It really helps to use a ranking system. I did on my contest as well.

Aries66

6th Nov 2007, 10:16 PM

FurryPanda

7th Nov 2007, 01:01 AM

Actually what about reverse favoritism? When a judge specifically dislikes someone and scores them lower? Anyone seen anything like that here, out of curiosity?

Safyre420

7th Nov 2007, 03:35 AM

Favoritism is bad in contests and it bugs me a lot when I'm a contestant, also doesn't help that I can be rather paranoid about such things. But if I'm judging a contest, I tend to critique those whose works and talents I've seen and those that I'm friends with the same, though sometimes my friends get the harsher judging.

avexkoo

7th Nov 2007, 10:55 AM

This is an interesting topic, I just entered my first beauty contest and got eliminated on the application round, I was really shocked, because only 3 got eliminated and I didn't expect mine to be on the bottom three because I was very confident about my model's looks even though my pics were not technically superior or creative (didn't use photoshop) since it was an application round, I figured looks would count the most. I simply was not familiar with how the judges base their scoring on and got blindsided. I wasn't around this forum long enough to know anything about favoritism, but my first impression from a beauty contest tells me that judging is very subjective, and leans toward technical and graphics aspects. The judges seemed to be impressed by the close-up detailed shots more so than how the models look like, which is a valid criteria but not a fair one because not everyone has a top of the line graphics card, and not many people have the expertise in photoshop to compensate for the lack of graphics card advantage, fast eliminating most of the hopefuls. I think having a great graphics card shouldn't equate to having talent, it's just a tool, but I guess the better graphics do impress the judges without a doubt. So I can conclude that my entry got eliminated on the basis of not having good graphics and lacking in technique, but what about the LOOKS? It was suppose to be a BEAUTY contest, hello? Yeah, they use the word "unique" and "original" all over the contest thread, but when I see some of the models that moved onto next round, all I see is "ugly", and "butch". I don't think the judges were looking for beauty based in real-life at all, but more towards the fictional, creative beauty you don't see in real-lilfe because I would be scared to meet the so-called "unique" looking models if they were real. As for the topic of favoritism, I'm sure it goes on, it happens in reall life, so why would this forum be any different? But I'm not going to accuse the judges who eliminated my first ever contest entry on favoritism, I just think judging criteria is too subjective and graphics oriented that many novice contestants might get an impression that veterans get special treatment but when you look at the contestants who are actually good, they have these things in common: great graphics, technique, creativity, THEN beauty, in order of priority. So basically the beauty element in a beauty contest matters the least, it was never about being subjective on beauty at all. I entered a BEAUTY contest instead of other types of contests because I KNEW I can't be the best in graphics performance and technique, but in a beauty contest, looks should matter the most, but apparently that's not the case, a beauty contest is still a SKILL & GRAPHICS-based contest in which you will excel with a great graphics card and some technique in photoshop, the clincher would be the creative aspect, and that's where the decisive element lies, creativity, but without the tools of a great graphics card and photoshopping, you don't stand a chance in these contests even with the best creativity. I have entered my next beauty contest, Model of the Year, cycle 4, which was a lot tougher contest than I had ever imagined, with more than 60 entries, and more than half being eliminated in application round. With what I've learned in the previous contest, I entered 2 models (which I didn't do the last time when I could've.) to obviously enhance my chances, and managed to pass the application round with very little tools I had at disposal. But I know that my days are limited in round 1, the competition is very fierce and several contestants in it are truly talented, and I simply don't have the best graphics and technique to keep up with them. All I can do is be creative and hope that the judges recognize the beauty of my compositions, and don't rely heavily on graphics and technique because it's supposed to be a BEAUTY contest.

On another note, someone in the previous post brought up about qualifications of being a judge in a contest, and said if they are not as good as contestants, they shouldn't be a judge. I agree to a certain degree on the sentiment, because even the beauty contest is SKILL & GRAPHICS-based unfortunately, and to be a judge in that mold, you have to recognize the technique and quality of graphics. But really, anybody can be a judge, it's not hard to recognize good graphics, what's not good about it is that too many get impressed by it when it has nothing to do with talent, and while the technique used in these contests are high level, it's not something that can decide the contest by its own merit, you still have to be creative to win it. Judging creativity really is subjective and purely on taste, so who's to say soandso is not qualified to judge?

When I'm eliminated from the MOTY cycle 4 contest (which should be pretty soon), I want to start my own beauty contest where BEAUTY does matter the most as it should be. I'm not saying MOTY is a bad contest, it's very popular and there is a reason for it, I just want a different take on a beauty contest where stellar graphics and technique are not a requirement so that more contestants get a chance to do well if they have a good eye on beauty. You might say beauty is subjective also, and I agree, but there still is universal beauty and a set standard that are widely accepted, and there's a very little chance of a "unique" model winning because judging will be based on a majority rule. And at least my contest will prioritize beauty element the most, not the other stuff.

Cher

7th Nov 2007, 11:44 AM

avexkoo, I think you did a great job! I love your graveyard pic most! I'd love to know how some get that mist effect! I don't think the judges should comment on anyone's pictures when the contest is in progress. That puts a red flag up for me when I see that! Or when hosts etc. use words like-your pictures are awesome-amazing-gorgeous-fabulous. That also puts a BIG red flag up for me! When a few are singled out of the contests. I never did that in my contests, I always said they were all doing a great job!I also don't go into a contest and single out my favorites. I mean I have friends out here that do amazing work and I never go into their contest and tell them, I usually PM them :D But thats just the way I am and this can't be helped! I think you said this was your first contest. Be patient, some are waiting years! It's supposed to be all about FUN, but I can see that changing after reading some of our comments in here, it makes me very unhappy! It's not all about winning, it's about fun and showing off your beautiful sim-being creative-poses-backgrounds etc. Well I'm done in here and said what I had to say! It was great to vent my frustrations I have holding in for almost a year! And not just PMing friends about this! I'm glad it's out in the open :D I wish you all the best of luck and happy simming! :)

avexkoo

7th Nov 2007, 12:22 PM

Thanks Michele D, and I ddin't do anything for the mist effect, it just came with the photo, I don't have the skill to do such things in photoshop, so I just try to select the background photo that has everything I need, finding the right photo took me the most amount of time, because I like to have the model interact with it, not just standing in the middle.

Yeah, it should be for fun, I didn't expect to win my first ever contest, but being eliminated in your first ever contest in application round does kind of traumatize you haha. But I'm doing better in MOTY cycle 4 (so far anyway), and it's a lot tougher competition than the first one so I think I'm improving, but I know I have a long way to go before I win one. I think judging contests is a thankless job, so I probably never want to be a judge, but maybe I like to try it just once to see what it's like, since I plan to host a contest.

MissTech

7th Nov 2007, 12:53 PM

I don't think the judges should comment on anyone's pictures when the contest is in progress. That puts a red flag up for me when I see that!

I agree with you 1000% there. Which is the reason why I ask anyone who judges for my contests to please refrain from making comments in thread about specific entries. I ask them if they really feel the need to comment in thread, to please make the comments very general and towards all the contestants. I think its very discouraging to everyone in a contest if the judges keep coming in thread and posting glowing comments towards specific entries/people.

honeynutcows_SC

7th Nov 2007, 01:10 PM

i disgree with the no comments thing i think people like to see comments well i do anyway sometimes i score really badly and i want to know why as i love my entry or sometimes i just want pointers to help me with my next photos comments in contests are the things that have helped me improve without those i think i would still be using the in game camera and using plain backgrounds well maybe not but i definatly wouldnt put as much effort as i do now

Vaalyah

7th Nov 2007, 01:37 PM

I agree with Honeynutcows here. At least I would like to know WHY my score is so bad and why others ones are so good! It's easier giving a bad score to someone. It is less easy to give a reason for that score! Comments are, in my opinion, a sort of "control" for judges. They cannot give a 10 to a friend and a 3 to a no-friend, since everyone would read the reasons for a certain score

Cher

7th Nov 2007, 02:04 PM

Again people misunderstanding what I said or meant!!! I mean when the contest is in PROGRESS! Before judging.... However, while your on the subject, I'm also against judges comments coming from some people that have NO idea what their talking about. And I know who they are. Most of the judges are good and fair, I mean only a few that don't know. Miss Tech knew what I meant, I see.....

EDIT: I had to fix something before I get misunderstood again lol :D

appelsapgodin

7th Nov 2007, 02:24 PM

Well, I honestly don't know anyone here on the forum as a friend or something. There are people I like, but that's about the end of it.

In the last half year I participated in 5 contests on this forum, I had to drop out from 2 of those because of personal real life things going on. (at that moment my scores were among the highest in the respective rounds.)

The 3 I did finish, I won.

Since I don't know anyone here (as said before) I doubt I won because of favorism.

I judged a few contests too.. in those the people I thought that had a chance to win, seeing their work from the first rounds up, did win.

Maybe I am not around long enough in the contest forums to know about favorism, maybe I do not know who is friends with who. But I can't say that I think any of the contests I had something to do with here gave me the idea of being fixed.

Honestly I must say, I'm not doing any contests atm. It's because I am busy with real life stuff. But also because I don't find them really challenging anymore. I beat Freelancer in my first contest, what more can I reach in my life.

Personally I think there are a few folks around here who are just really good when it comes to graphic design and photoshopping and have an eye for making good pictures in general. (Yes, Freelancer, Cinnamun, Stylequeen.. and prob'ly a lot of others I am forgetting right now.)

For me it is not much fun to win a contest against a 14 year old who only has Paint on a crappy videocard computer to work with. I have a machine made for making films, with the total Adobe family on it. If I want I can after-effect my pictures. I spend the last 10 years studying fashion and art at university level. It seems slightly unfair to me to enter any contest.

Okay.. this might be going nowhere, but I guess what I really want to know is if there are people who agree with me and think it is time for a more challenging contest?

Annelae

7th Nov 2007, 02:32 PM

Some people are really consistent in their work but that can be perceived as favouritism, so it depends how you're looking at it.

avexkoo

7th Nov 2007, 02:39 PM

You bring a good point appelsagpgodin, contests that allow the use of photoshop and favor contestants that have better hardware really isn't a fair contest because some people just don't have access to them even if they have the talent. If I had known any better I wouldn't enter contests that prefer those things because I just have no chance to do well. When I host my first contest, I will try to structure it so that such technical advantage do not factor into scoring at all. I'm sure it will be very challenging then to anyone.

Vaalyah

7th Nov 2007, 02:49 PM

Well, I quite agree with the idea you cannot judge based on photoshop or hardware, but the truth is that if I look at a pic which is blurred, I cannot see good details of the model and in this sense, the model actually seems uglier!
Moreover, of course if you look at a good pic, is obvious that you are favorable impressed by it! So it is not so easy to split what is a good model and what is a good pic

Pors

7th Nov 2007, 03:22 PM

This has been an interesting thread to check on every few days. I've been in contests both as a participant and a judge. Hopefully as a participant I've improved along the way. Sometimes I've seen entries passed through that made me wonder who they knew or were friends with but for the most part, those passed deserved it. I'll join just about any contest I have time for because I feel that is the only way my skills are going to improve. I don't have the best computer or graphics card and am not particularly skilled in photoshopping but I always try to do my best.

I think being a judge is much harder than preparing an entry and submitting it. I've been judged harshly in the past (and I'm talking about non-constructive criticism like "your picture made my eyes hurt") and I don't think there's a place for that. And I've found that sometimes people don't really want to hear constructive criticism. They just want to complain that they didn't get through to the next round.

When I judge I do my best to judge independently of the "name" associated with the entry. However, let's face it, some of the "names" produce consistent, quality entries and they shouldn't be penalized for that anymore than a newcomer should be penalized for being a newcomer.

I think my biggest issue while judging is when the directions are not read and followed. To me a "headshot" should not include anything from the shoulders down. I'm amazed at the number of entries I've judged where I can barely see their face in a headshot because of the amount of body they've included. I don't care how beautiful their sim is, they will lose points in a scenario like that.

There are some hosts and judges I steer away from because of my perception of how they ran the contest or judged the contest. That is how I deal with the favoritism issue. And, thankfully, there aren't too many of those. I love doing these contests, they are a great stress reliever for my stress-filled life. If the day ever comes where I'm not having fun participating or judging, then I just simply won't do them anymore.

This is off the topic, but has anyone heard from Jaela lately? She's been MIA for awhile (missed an entry in a contest we were in and couldn't be contacted to provide judging in another, which is not like her).

Annelae

7th Nov 2007, 03:26 PM

Jaela had a toothache and also her computer wasn't working; or something like that. Anyway, I agree that most if not all contests should be run on pure talent and originality, and the most photoshopping one can do is a border or text.

I'm a judge in the current cycle in 'World Model Search' and the way I judge them is based on the round's performance because I don't really care if you were good last week, but you're bad this week and vice versa.

Cinamun

7th Nov 2007, 04:01 PM

Essa

7th Nov 2007, 04:15 PM

Actually what about reverse favoritism? When a judge specifically dislikes someone and scores them lower? Anyone seen anything like that here, out of curiosity?

A few months ago I was in a contest and after the round 2 results the host pmed me and asked me if I've had a quarrel with that particular judge because that judge gave me low score in rounds 1 and 2.

I was really surprised and was hurt by knowing I was unfairly judged. I didn't drop out, wanted to though, but that judge was replaced till the end of the contest. I didn't win but I've had fun. :D

This is an interesting topic, I just entered my first beauty contest and got eliminated on the application round, I was really shocked, because only 3 got eliminated and I didn't expect mine to be on the bottom three because I was very confident about my model's looks even though my pics were not technically superior or creative (didn't use photoshop) since it was an application round, I figured looks would count the most.

When I first entered my first beauty contest I didn't make it to round 1. I was disappointed and decide to try harder for the next one (Lady Limelight I)
Everyone did it to the next round but I've had the hardest time of my life since I knew very little about photo edition. I was using Photofiltre and has to switch to Paint Shop Pro to use layers. I didn't make it to the end but I learnt a lot in this contest. Then I started to enter contest in which photo editing was allowed.
I win some and lose some but I think that I've had fun in most of them and I've always learnt a lesson from each of them.

I can't use Photoshop for my life. I maybe too used to my old Paint Shop Pro. :lol:
You may try the Gimp if you don't have it. People who use that program tell that it's great and it's equal to Photoshop.

I think my biggest issue while judging is when the directions are not read and followed. To me a "headshot" should not include anything from the shoulders down. I'm amazed at the number of entries I've judged where I can barely see their face in a headshot because of the amount of body they've included. I don't care how beautiful their sim is, they will lose points in a scenario like that.

Same for me here and bodyshot should be a full bodyshot but I've seen round pictures (including one of mine) being featured when they didn't follow the rules. I'm careful about this as a contestant and as a judge too.

HystericalParoxysm

7th Nov 2007, 04:49 PM

Cinamun - That's only partially true, honestly. Yes, a better graphics card will produce clearer, crisper, nicer pics, but I got by for the first couple years playing TS2 with an integrated Intel chip and constantly had people going, "omg I wish I had your card!" - a lot of it is lighting, composition, colour choices, and, well, especially if you don't have a nice card you'd be -amazed- what you can do with filtering and adjustments to get your pics to look wonderful. Someone who can't turn up the basic settings is, well, going to have pics that look like mud no matter what they do, but a card good enough to at least run the game decently well, combined with an artistic eye and a little bit of filtering will do -wonders-.

I don't consider light filtering Photoshopping, by the way - it's merely adjusting the pics to look their best... And certainly isn't anything like the... slice and dice and chop jobs that I see in a lot of contests. As a judge in previous contests I've always gone on general creativity of the entries, how well they've stuck to what was required for the rounds, and originality. I find highly Photoshopped pics really disconcerting personally - oversharpening and oversaturating seem to be common, but there's a lot of... chopping out of backgrounds, weird Photoshopped poses, crazy windblown hair and all manner of stuff that people do a lot... and that very very few do well. While I appreciate the effort, it just seems to be more in the spirit of things to do as much as possible in-game... and if you can immediately tell how and where it was 'shopped... it's not a good result and I would tend to score that entry lower if I were judging.

Cinamun

7th Nov 2007, 05:02 PM

Cinamun - That's only partially true, honestly. Yes, a better graphics card will produce clearer, crisper, nicer pics, but I got by for the first couple years playing TS2 with an integrated Intel chip and constantly had people going, "omg I wish I had your card!" - a lot of it is lighting, composition, colour choices, and, well, especially if you don't have a nice card you'd be -amazed- what you can do with filtering and adjustments to get your pics to look wonderful. Someone who can't turn up the basic settings is, well, going to have pics that look like mud no matter what they do, but a card good enough to at least run the game decently well, combined with an artistic eye and a little bit of filtering will do -wonders-.

I probably had the same integrated Intel chip you did LOL (Dell PC?) But I didn't have anyone saying they wanted my card (probably because I was ignorant to different techniques to making good with what you have). That was also before I learned that using the in-game camera is a no-no (lol). I tend to agree that a great deal of picture-taking for contest purposes or otherwise is the artistic eye and the things you mentioned such as lighting, angles, colors, etc. Having said that, I noticed I did not have to do as much adjusting once I got that new G-card. I guess it's doing most of the work for me and I just have to go into my photo-editor to make it all sparkly n stuff.

I agree with your stance on over-photoshopping. I only recently learned how to manipulate poses and add hair...and I don't even really know all the different photoshopping techniques and pretty bells and whistles it has to offer. I use more lighting and saturation adjustments than anything now as I used to abuse the gaussian blur feature... And I never want any pose I create in photoshop to turn out looking like it was photoshopped, which is incredibly hard to do and takes hours to make it just right.

Kakashi_Hatake_SC

7th Nov 2007, 05:30 PM

I've been in a few contests where favoritism is DEFINANTLY evident, one in particular is alot worse than the others. I think the main problem is that the judges are handpicked by the host and most of the people that join are friends with the host and all the judges, they sort of have a little "Click" together if you know what I mean. And if you're not in that "Click" then you do horrible. I've been in this contest for a few cycles and always it's the same thing, it's extremely biased and pretty much if your sim doesn't look like a hot J-Rocker you don't win or do well. But I join anyway because it's fun. I just think the judges should be more randomly picked than hand picked. I think a few might know what contest I'm speaking of, although there hasn't been one in awhile.

Dreea

7th Nov 2007, 10:42 PM

Kakashi_Hatake, I'm so curious about the name of the contest but we are not supposed to give names. :) Anyway, I dye to know what contest are you talking about

FurryPanda

8th Nov 2007, 12:57 AM

I just think the judges should be more randomly picked than hand picked. I think a few might know what contest I'm speaking of, although there hasn't been one in awhile.
I do not think that random judges would be a good idea. Even slightly randomized would be terrible, IMO. more on that soon. And the hosts don't hadnpick the judges, ina lmost all of them its first come first serve via PM, unless that host has a bone to pick with the judge. (such as them having been a douche in previous rounds, or being widely known as unreliable) So its more like the judges handpicking the contest. Just wnatd to defend all of the lovely hosts out there.

As to why random is so bad? How do you select your population? How do you assure you don't get a judge who only knows beauty judging a house contest? How do you assure that you don't get judges who hate certain hosts and vice versa? Random would be a disaster. No offense.

Safyre420

8th Nov 2007, 04:50 AM

That was also before I learned that using the in-game camera is a no-no (lol).

Why is that a no-no? O_o I've always used the in-game camera lol

About picking judges, I personally would rather handpick my own judges from people I know and trust because I'll be able to tell if they'll be picking a winner from the start.

As for photoshopping....why why why oh dear god why is photoshopping even allowed at all, I've only seen like 5 people do really good photoshpping, the rest is utter crap XD I haven't and won't photoshop anything because I completely blow and photoshopping anything, I can crop, negative image and do minor filtering lol

avexkoo

8th Nov 2007, 05:39 AM

Well, the in-game camera only can take pic size up to 600x450, and depending on the type of graphics card you have, it might come out not so clear. It's better to use a screen-capture program like Fraps which can take a pic the size of your entire screen, or use the Print Screen key on your keyboard and paste it onto the photo-editting program, which would give you pic that is the size of the in-game resolution you are using, such as 1024x768.

Hmm I better add something that is relevant to the thread topic, lol, well, how you choose judges for a contest should matter to the host to me because judges can really influence how successful a contest is run, and if I were to host, I would want judges that are reliable and fair, not shady and biased. If that is perceived as the host having too much control, there should be a definitive upside to using random judges, but I don't think it's a better method either, so I guess it depends on the host's preference, and how much they want to be a part of the contest they are hosting, but honestly I don't have a problem with a host being a judge at all, just hosting and not being a judge to me seems a bit pointless? I mean, is there a perk for being a host and not judge also? Some hosts say that they want to be objective to their own contest by not being a judge, but you are still letting others judge in YOUR contest, wouldn't it be better if the host would participate as a judge and add their own flavor to the contest so the contestants would know what to expect from different hosts instead of getting the usual rotation of volunteer judges?

avexkoo

8th Nov 2007, 06:28 AM

I want to speak on the hardware issue. I think that may be a gray area. Obviously a high-end graphics card and loads of RAM will produce brighter, crisper, smoother pictures (in some cases). The people that have these high-end cards or what have you are going to submit some pretty wicked entries due to the clarity of the photo.

That *may* give that person an edge in a contest but what can we really do about that?
Or what suggestions do you have for balancing that with someone who may not have good hardware? For me? Before I bought a new G-card, whenever I turned "neighborhood view" on (came with nightlife) all my sims clothes would be blurred out. My old card just couldn't handle it. My new card is decent but I wish I had bPs card or Linuslover's card... have you seen their pics? :blink:

I would love to have a GeForce 8800 but dammit I can't afford one!! :rofl:

You are absolutely right, there's not much a host can do, except maybe be more selective in picking judges that have a track-record of scoring according to the specified criteria, and has less tendencies in blindly giving high marks to any pic that has nice graphics. But yeah, threre's no denying that better graphics does enhance the visuals and not many can separate the two without a trained eye.

Urbanique

8th Nov 2007, 06:34 AM

I know I'm kinda late joining in here, but I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

I remember when I first took interest in S2C contests back in January. I was a a TS1 fan that finally decided to get TS2. I was just barely getting used to the game when I entered my first contest - Project Supermodel. I didn't make it past the application round. Although I was disappointed, I didn't waste time examining results and jumped into another contest. I knew I was a newbie and had no clue as to what I was doing lol.

I'm not going to say the name of the contest out of respect for the host who has been participating in this thread. But basically, this was the first time I witnessed some seriously weird judging. I worked really hard throughout the whole contest just like the other contestants. Based on the scores and comments the host gave me, I was doing quite well and had been on top for the first 3 rounds.

I really felt like I had been doing consistently great UNTIL the last couple of rounds. I'll admit that I did slack off a little and didn't put as much time into my entries, but sometimes real life is more important, right? Well, anyway when it got to the final round, the host called in an emergency judge. This is when the scandal broke (lol)! I had received horribly low scores from this EJ. Talk about 10-9-9.5-6. Wtf?

I was baffled. What really pissed me off is that the judge apologized and said there wasn't anything she could do. That's just how the scores are.

I was disappointed because I had done so well and had been pretty consistent.

It's weird how I ended up at the bottom of the final four. A contestant that had been in danger of being eliminated in 2 rounds was 2nd. AND the friend of the EJ placed first. Funny how I still think about it lol.

But basically, I don't think we can eliminate favoritism and biased judging. Actually, it would be impossible. I think the best thing a host can do is ask that judges supply comments. That way they can at least provide some sort of an explanation supporting their scores.

I also wanted to say that I honestly think reputation wins contests around here. People that are amazingly creative and skilled seem to have the upper hand when it comes to judging. You might so "no! They're skill is what gets them victories!" But I honestly think that after the same people keep winning contests, they develop this "winner reputation." And don't you dare give one of these "winners" a low score or critical comment. Don't you know who they are? It's _______ FFS!! </sarcasm>

That is all.

Dreea

8th Nov 2007, 07:13 AM

Urbanique, I so agree with you.

~Jessica~_SC

8th Nov 2007, 07:54 AM

im not really into the contests scene so i cant really say much about favoritism being evident.
I've only been in two contests (I think I placed second both times, i dont remember) but I've also hosted two.

As a host, I pick people i know and trust and that have time on their hands, and if I cant find enough friends available, I just put that im looking for judges and people volunteer. I set up a scoring system so that each contestant gets a certain number of points for each thing for their entry (creativity, following directions, style, etc) and then I add up all the points from all the judges and that is the contestant's round score. They stay (or go) based on their current round score only, not how well they've done previously. At the end of the contest, I tally up all the round scores for each contestant and the winner is the one with the highest total score.

I dont like photoshopped pics and I dont allow much photoshopping other than the basics (lightening, borders, etc). I agree with HP. The best pictures ever taken were done in-game. I dont care how many fancy programs you have and how long you've been playing around with photoshop, the best ones are in-game ones. But that is just my opinion lol

I have had friends join in my two contests, most have dropped out due to time constraints, but I had one friend in my last contest get second place. I didnt show any of them favoritism. I try to judge all entries evenly--i dont look at anyones profiles, I dont pay attention to whos name is attached to the entry, I just look at the pics.

I think its better scoring for individual parts of the entry than just giving the entire entry a 1-10 score, especially if you're a judge. I look at my list of things im supposed to be judging on (I wrote the damn thing but forget it half the time lol) and then i go systematically through the entry scoring for each thing, without adding to see how high the total is, without reading the other judges scores/comments.

I am not surprised that there may be favoritism, but if you sign up for cycle 10 of a contest and its the same judges and same host as like all the previous rounds, what do you expect? They've all been around long enough to have made friends or picked favorites or whatever.
Give the new unknown hosts' contests a chance :p

/end ramble

HystericalParoxysm

8th Nov 2007, 10:11 AM

Guys? The "please PM me to tell me which contest" stuff ends now please. The idea of this thread is NOT to create more drama.

romyhorse

8th Nov 2007, 10:12 AM

It's weird how I ended up at the bottom of the final four. A contestant that had been in danger of being eliminated in 2 rounds was 2nd. AND the friend of the EJ placed first. Funny how I still think about it lol.

That sounds familiar :lol:, was I in that contest?

I don't think you can randomise judges because not everyone has the time or inclination to judge. You just have to hope you get fair judges and if you think they are being biased maybe a PM would help sort things out (they might just be looking at different things when judging).

Cinamun

8th Nov 2007, 01:43 PM

But I honestly think that after the same people keep winning contests, they develop this "winner reputation." And don't you dare give one of these "winners" a low score or critical comment. Don't you know who they are?

So wait... as long as i've won a couple contests, I can turn in crap from now on and still win?? I don't have to work hours on entries anymore because I won something? YIPPEE!!!! :D

:blink:

I can't say in my experience thats all the way true.... I've won things and gotten low scores before (the last cycle of MOTY) and you know what? Thats because, to me, I didn't have the creative skill in my entries as the ones who placed before me. If people went into contests with the mindset of "So and so is gonna win anyway, why try" the contest section wouldn't be as popular as it seems to be on this site. And when I judge, it based on the entry, not whatever "reputation" the person who made the entry supposedly has. But thats just how I judge.

About the in-game camera...
I've found with printscreen and gadwin's I have much more control over my pictures with size and clarity and I can capture more of what I want in the game. The in-game camera reduces quality (to a certain degree) and limits sizing abilities.

And i'm taking the contests i've won out of my sig right now, I'm proud of my work, but I dont want no stinking "winner's reputation", I want the reputation of the weird simmer in the corner that plays with imaginary goats. :p

Cher

8th Nov 2007, 04:36 PM

Cinamun

8th Nov 2007, 04:44 PM

Cinamun, why are you getting so defensive? There were no names mentioned! I believe this thread is towards some hosts and opinions about some judging! I also think Urbanique brings some very good and true points here! It's not the contestants fault, not at all! The people that win many contests, I have the alot of respect for, when I think they deserved it in my opinion! So put your winnings back in your sig and be proud. I have seen your work also and I like it!

Also, I totally agree with HystericalParoxysm, about slice and dice and chop jobs that are done etc! AND I have no idea what photoshopping a sim is all about! I never did that and don't know what that means.

I wouldn't call that defenisve, I would call that sarcasm! Or just me being a goofball, I mean, look what I changed my sig to anyway. I'm "special" LOL
She doesn't have to mention any names, in fact, no one does. I also believe that Urbanique brings some very good and true points, but that last one I find somewhat unbelievable according to my own personal contest experiences on this site. But there lies the problem, I haven't experienced anything personally that would raise an eyebrow, and as I can see, a LOT of people have. So I guess i'm in the minority.

Trust me, I don't have any reason to be defensive here, but i'd like to think that a person's skill and creativity beats out any false sense of reputation people think they have.

Cher

8th Nov 2007, 04:56 PM

I wouldn't call that defenisve, I would call that sarcasm!

Well I would call it both, but I was trying not to use the sarcasm word. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion. Everyone in here bring some good points and some bad, including me! I'm not always right, I can admit that! But on this topic, I feel better being able to vent my opinions. :tophat:

Cinamun

8th Nov 2007, 04:59 PM

Well I would call it both, but I was trying not to use the sarcasm word. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion. Everyone in here bring some good points and some bad, including me! I'm not always right, I can admit that! But on this topic, I feel better being able to vent my opinions. :tophat:

I feel better being able to vent my opinion on this topic also, which is all I was doing in response to Urbanique. The notion boggles me, but doesnt get my panties in a bunch to where I feel the need to defend myself.

PennyTheCorgi

8th Nov 2007, 05:24 PM

As unfortunate as it is, I use to see a big problem with favoritism in contest. I would see alot of people that would get to ignore rules others had to follow, get to reserve spaces, and get to enter the same sim or sometimes the same pictures in multiple contests. I found this to be a severe disadvantage to some of the other contestants that worked so hard on their entries and got an unrealistically low score. Most of the people that I had a problem with aren't here anymore so I think the favoritism in judging is better, but still an occational problem. The reason I don't enter so many contests now isn't so much because of favoritism, but because alot of contests seem to be based more on how well you can photoshop, and not how creative your ingame pics are. it also makes some of the beaty contests alot more difficult because photoshop can make any sim look amazing. It just seems kind of unfair to me the alot of contests focus more on photoshopping skill then on the creativity of the person and the natural, unedited beauty of the actual sim. I understand using printscreen and resizing your pics with a program, but extensive photoshop just seems like an unfair advantage sometimes. :shrug:

Cinamun

8th Nov 2007, 05:33 PM

Good point Penny and I agree, I'd like to see more beauty contests with rules like "no photoshopping poses or backgrounds" etc. I spend more time in bodyshop than I do in photoshop because I like to actually create the doll than manipulate the doll. The point you made about creativity is also one of the reasons I joined JocusDorkus' photography contest. Now THAT was an awesome contest and an amazing challenge to come up with actual *art* as opposed to manipulation. I'd love to see more contests based solely on the uniqueness of the sim and in-game set ups. I've even seen people ask during application phases "Will photoshopping be allowed? Or is this going to be solely based on sim beauty" which is a legit question that makes sense in beauty contests.

Freelancer_SC

8th Nov 2007, 06:33 PM

Good point Penny and I agree, I'd like to see more beauty contests with rules like "no photoshopping poses or backgrounds" etc. I spend more time in bodyshop than I do in photoshop because I like to actually create the doll than manipulate the doll. EXACTLY. That's one of the reasons why I miss Miss Sim Earth so much and why I'm running my similar "tribute series" on InSim. In that one, even simple borders was "too much photoshopping." :devil2: I'd love to see something like that happen again over here (or anywhere; it seems like there are no photoshop-free beauty contests anymore).

MissTech

8th Nov 2007, 06:51 PM

I'd love to see something like that happen again over here (or anywhere; it seems like there are no photoshop-free beauty contests anymore).

Not for nothing not that I am some great contest host, I've had my snags, but EVERY contest I run/have run, be it in Beauty (though havent done one in a while), Other (SOL), or Houses (Architect) photoshopping is not allowed. I think it takes away from seeing what people can do with their sims (as in creativity/staging) in the game itself...

For example, anyone can cut and paste a picture of a sim in a bikini on a beach, but to create a beach setting that is realistic in game is much more impressive, at least to me. I also veer away from contests (will not enter or offer to judge) that are heavy into the photoshopping. I see photoshopping / photoshoppers as posers... cant make it look good or real in game, so cut out a sim and paste it onto a photo as a backdrop. (A photo, which by the way, is someone else's work.)

Zaggytiddies

8th Nov 2007, 07:06 PM

When I enter a contest I try be as creative as possible... that's why it's fun! (i've hosted contests where being as creative as possible is the point 'the sky is the limit'... stuff like that) For me the fun of the contests is getting that great idea and trying to make it happen in my entry. The fun comes from learning new things about photoshop. I love photoshop and have pretty much taught myself... because I think it's fun. Seriously, had I known how much I like it I would have gone into Graphic design instead of wasting lots of money and my college experience on a BA in Acting :shudder: but that's another matter... :blink: bitter? lol

Anyway.... I think that people who participate in more contests just get better at it because they've had practice.

Example... ha ha

First contest I entered
Chopped together with horrible lighting (I went a little overboard and definitely didn't make it to the first round)

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e176/ooxlilyxoo/liaden.jpg

but then I figured I couldn't do that sort of thing and made this for the second contest I was in. We had to show what our job was... or what we wanted to be... or something. So Ainsley was a whale trainer. This is actually 5 different pictures (that belong to other people) put together.

1. Sim
2. Water
3. Whale
4. Audience
5. Railing thingy

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e176/ooxlilyxoo/careerday.jpg

So what I'm saying is, I'm playing to my strengths (with my little Dell PC and don't even know what kind of graphics card I have) and that's why it's fun. I enjoy seeing every one's very different ideas playing out. :)

FurryPanda

8th Nov 2007, 09:11 PM

Actually what I think would be good is if judges had to say how they judged things. Like if theres a beauty score, say what the judge feels is beautiful, within the constraitns of sims and the rules, and what they feel is not. Or something. In every not-sim contest or competition or anythign i've been involved in that's required actually.

And as to favoritism, I jsut want to say that I don't even know whos doing what half of the time. I just follow the hyperlinks if the host is nice enough to provide them, or go trawling through the thread for pictures. But I don't notice names, mainly because they're usually not part of the hyperlink. The only people whose name I can associate with contest entries are because theyre so pisspoor. I havent the faintest idea who anyone in a contest I'm judging is, except the host. maybe thats jsut me, but I think thats the best way to avoid favoritism: dont say who's doing what! (damn I love those hyperlinks) Then its jsut the entry or someoen trawling through the thread. Sorry if that made no sense.

J. M. Pescado

9th Nov 2007, 11:53 AM

Favoritism is all over the place: in school, in real life contests and competions, at work, etc and even in Sims2 contests. Judges score the entries by friendships and/or popularity. I won't give examples, :einstein no one should give, because this is not a thread for argue, it's just a debate thread. I want to know your opinion. What do you think of favoritism in contests?
They are the primary element of the contest. The actual merit of the creation in question has little to do with the contest itself, as practically 99% of all contests can't even be bothered to PRETEND to post an objective criteria for judging.

It happened to you? (Do not give people names/nicknames, just examples of the situation)
No. I know better than to waste my time participating in an obviously rigged contest. When they can't even be bothered to post an objective criteria of what is supposed to be in a winning entry, I can't be bothered to waste my time on what is an obvious popularity contest.

What should be done for this to stop?
Stop it? I blatantly spork this tradition while posting an objective scoring rubric for my own contests. The contest specifically includes "bribery" as part of the score! If it were STOPPED, I'd actually have to make an effort to participate. :P

sakrayami

9th Nov 2007, 10:40 PM

So wait... as long as i've won a couple contests, I can turn in crap from now on and still win?? I don't have to work hours on entries anymore because I won something? YIPPEE!!!! :D
[/center]

You are partly right, cause i have seen it in a contest out here. The contestant didn't win but was scored very high all the time. I won't say
that happens a lot. But it can happen, it depends which contest, host
or judges.

MissTech

10th Nov 2007, 10:42 AM

They are the primary element of the contest. The actual merit of the creation in question has little to do with the contest itself, as practically 99% of all contests can't even be bothered to PRETEND to post an objective criteria for judging.

Actually, I do post general judging criteria in my contests. And I dont pretend to do it, I really do. Even include a hyperlink in the main post so that the judges and contestants can easily find it. So I guess I am in the 1%. (Posting judging criteria is something I learned from being in the beauty pageant world. If you're not upfront with those people as to what is expected, they complain worse than the people in this thread.)

hathompson

10th Nov 2007, 10:46 AM

i think in australian idol they do!

FurryPanda

10th Nov 2007, 06:04 PM

Actually one fo the things that annoys me is the alck of specificity in the jduging criteria. What I'm judging on is not really told, youg et a set of scores that you need to give (creativity out of X, followed directions out of Y, etc.). And those things aren't universla and theyre not described as to what the host wants so for all the contestant knows, judge 1 looks for technicolor entries and judge 2 looks for photoshopping, as far as creativity goes. That annoys me somewhat, but then again the extreme altertnative is much worse... Ever been judging a contest where the scores are out of 10 and the criteria is fourteen pages long? *shudder* But the center of that road is rather nice, even if it is more work for the host, becuase it smooths out differences between the judge's opinion of what "creativity" is.

jaela_SC

11th Nov 2007, 05:54 AM

Wow, gone for a few weeks and so much to read and think over in this thread :). Everyone has had some excellent views and thoughts about judging and hosting contests, I think this is great to have a place to put it out in the open, so much is said in pm's and not expressed openly.

I agree that there is much room for improvement in hosting and judging contests. Until we talk like this openingly about what we feel is good and bad: things will not change. Here is where may be some difference can happen, hopefully hosts and judges will read these posts and learn from them.

I like some of the others, always look at who the host is and the judges...I have been burned too many times with having a judge where I couldn't do anything right no matter what I tried and have gotten those dreaded comments of my work being useless and if I am a couch-potato in photoshopping then I should not try to compete with the professional athletics.

We all put our heart and soul into every photo that we do and the goal is to hear that we did well, that is just human natural...we want our efforts to be appreciated. I am sorry to say that is not always the case...I do feel that those without the name recognition do get pushed to the background some of the times. But, I will say not always or only by the host or judges....I have seen where other contestants have made comments over and over again about this or that's person's entry...to the point of it being sickening. I was in a contest where this one contestant made long posts about another contestant's entry...about how they could not make a bad picture and they had the contest in the bag. I think that commenting on photos is great, we all want to hear how, well we are doing but, I also, think that it does cloud the judges preception. If people are ranting and raving about a person's entry, how can it not make the judges stop and go and look at the picture and maybe taint their view? So, if there is favorism or scores based on a person reputation, then sometimes we as contestants have ourselves to blame on that too, not just the host and judges. We the contestants are the ones with our over-complementing posts that bring attention to those who we then complain got scores because of their reputation...hell, we are the ones that gave them that rep...because the ones I know do not blow their own horn or tell us how great they are...they are mostly very humble about their work and in most cases deserve the scores given them.

I agree that the contests are spending more time on photoshopping abilities then creativity within sims. So, while I was lying in a hospital bed, I was thinking about my next contest and decided it is time to go back to basics and have it more about the sims and the creativity of using the game then about photoshopping. I will also, take what is being discussed in this forum to heart when planning and finding judges....I think I have been blessed with wonderful judges in the past and pray that continues.

Well, this is more then I have ever written in SC2 and probably will not be the last, I do have a big mouth when I feel something passionately.

Cher

11th Nov 2007, 06:30 AM

I said something about this a few posts back, but you put it better, as usual :)

jaela
contestant made long posts about another contestant's entry...about how they could not make a bad picture and they had the contest in the bag. I think that commenting on photos is great, we all want to hear how, well we are doing but, I also, think that it does cloud the judges preception. If people are ranting and raving about a person's entry, how can it not make the judges stop and go and look at the picture and maybe taint their view?

I'm also starting to see alot of contestants that are friends with the hosts & judges, something I never noticed much before! I personally make it a point not to enter a contest if it's my friend. I'm not saying it's wrong to enter a contest of one of your friends, but it just puts a red flag up for me, again. I'm going to be even more careful what contest I join. I feel so sad that I have come to this!

EDIT: Off topic, but it's about the contests. It bothers me when a person wins a contest and comes back for a second win! They already won it and I think someone else should be able to take a shot at it. But thats just my own opinion.................

plumbob_SC

11th Nov 2007, 07:40 AM

If people are ranting and raving about a person's entry, how can it not make the judges stop and go and look at the picture and maybe taint their view?[/b]

I totally agree with that, its hard to completele block out others perception of a pic so when plp keep praising and going on and on about someones work, the judges tend to also be swayed in that direction. Where the wind blows the leaves follow.

FurryPanda

11th Nov 2007, 04:52 PM

I totally agree with that, its hard to completele block out others perception of a pic so when plp keep praising and going on and on about someones work, the judges tend to also be swayed in that direction. Where the wind blows the leaves follow.

Hence why hyperlinks are so awesome, because if a judge decides to only look at the final entry that the host hyperlinks to, they can stay out of the thread and be completely unaware of other's opinions.

*Faye*

12th Nov 2007, 05:25 AM

I see photoshopping / photoshoppers as posers... cant make it look good or real in game, so cut out a sim and paste it onto a photo as a backdrop. (A photo, which by the way, is someone else's work.)

I think this is a tad bit harsh. Although in game pictures are more impressive, sometimes it's just not practical. I for one have a so-so graphics card and almost no disk space left of my computer to download the large amount of CC it would take to create a beautiful in-game pic.

I agree that just cutting and pasting can produce cheap images, but are you forgetting that great photoshopping takes creativity? Photoshop is an extremely complicated program and takes time to learn and master. It takes somebody with talent in order to compose a beautiful photo, photoshopped or not. A lot of us photoshoppers don't just paste our sim on a background and call it a day; we spend a good amount of time with placement, lighting, effects and colors.

A great in-game picture is impressive. But I don't really think it's fair to call photoshoppers posers. We also work very hard on our images, and it's up to the contest host to decide what is allowed as far the amount of photoshopping goes. It they say that it's ok, then it's ok for us to use the program in order to extend what we could do just in-game.

nerina

12th Nov 2007, 09:12 AM

Maybe I'm just lucky, or naive, but I've never experienced any favouritism in contests. When I won my first one I had only done three before, didn't have much experience and was competing with at least two people who were rather famous around the contest area.
So no, the name doesn't make the judge think: 'Oh, it's XYZ, let's give them a perfect score'. It doesn't work like that for me, at least. I'm not the kind of judge who watch every entry as they're posted and rarely post in the in contest thread, if I do it's only to say I've sent my score to the judges. I only follow the hyperlinks the host gives and don't even look at the names. Actually, if you asked me which sim is who's in the contest I'm judging now, I could barely answer because we're down to the final five. I only judge on the entry based on the judging criteria the host has given me. And in case they don't, I have my own method, I never judge randomly. If somebody does, or let themselves be influenced by big names, well, they're either bad judges or inexperienced ones.

Of course, it happened to me also as a contestant to find myself with the lowest score and seeing entries I thought were very inferior to mine. I had also asked for explanation, since there weren't any judges comments. Some of the judges contacted me via PM and explained why they gave me that score and that helped me understand: I didn't necessarly agree with them, but their position was honest and well thought. Right now I'm a bit ashamed of my behaviour, too drama queen-ish even if for only one post, and also ashamed of having felt superior to the others: that it's wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not going to let this happen again.

Talking about photoshopping, I think it depends on how it's done. If it's only cutting a sim out of a pic an slapping it on a real life background, well that's the kind of thing that receive the lowest score from me. It looks so bad, so innatural. It IS possibile to play with the background to make it all sim-like, it just requires work and patience. However, I do appreciate well constructed in-game backgrounds more, it shows hard work. Now, about photoshopping poses, I see nothing wrong with it. I myself do it very often, it's a creative way to escape the limits of the game, and it requires lots of work and experience to be done the right way, as to say, in a way that doesn't show it is a photoshopped pose. Examples of poses photoshopped by me:
http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/stefania_nerina/?action=view&current=lavinia9.jpg
http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/stefania_nerina/?action=view&current=lavinia20.jpg
http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/stefania_nerina/?action=view&current=lavinia17.jpg
Now, I'm not posting these to receive compliments or anything, but just to show that it is possible to photoshop poses in a somewhat 'natural' way. But it takes time to be good at it.
Well, to conclude my uber-long post, we all like our entries, most of the times, but we don't have an objective perception of it: it's our, we've done it, it kept us up all night so that the following da at school or work we're like zombies. But an honest judge's point of view is more objective, especially combined with the one of several other judges.

romyhorse

12th Nov 2007, 09:49 AM

Hence why hyperlinks are so awesome, because if a judge decides to only look at the final entry that the host hyperlinks to, they can stay out of the thread and be completely unaware of other's opinions.

That's what I do when I judge, I try to stay away from the thread and don't even read the round requirements until it's judging time so I don't have any preconceived impressions before judging. I've had occasions though when the host deletes the round requirements when they close the round and I don't know what I'm supposed to be judging :lol: and I've had to get them to PM me.

jhd1189

12th Nov 2007, 04:32 PM

Guys, please try to stay on topic. This thread has turned into a debate over the merits of photoshopping pictures of Sims for beauty contests, which was not the original intent of this discussion. Also, discussing strictly S2C related contests is technically against the Don't Debate S2C rule, so try to keep your arguments more general. You can cite contests here as examples, but they shouldn't be the only thing discussed.

zizismommy_SC

12th Nov 2007, 04:33 PM

Nerina your photoshopped poses look great though. But there are some that are done and look sooo unnatural. Same thing with the photoshopping of hair, it can go too far. So I don't think the issue is photoshopping, it's OVER photoshopping that's the issue. IMO :lol:

As far as judging, then I too try to not comment in the contest thread. If I do it's a general comment directed at everyone. Then when It comes down to judging if the host has linked the entries on the first page, i'll open each one, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and start from there. I don't even look at the names until I absolutely have to.

sakrayami

13th Nov 2007, 06:06 PM

Jaela, I am glad to see you are back! I read your post, and i really appreciate that you are so outspoken, and you inspired me the way you think and reason. (reasoning?).
It's not always easy to type english here, when i never speak english, but i agree
a lot with what you had to say! :)

Kakashi_Hatake_SC

13th Nov 2007, 06:32 PM

And the hosts don't hadnpick the judges, ina lmost all.

Well there is one contest that has admitted to handpicking them and the judges and hosts are all friends, plus have the same opinions. The host has even admitted to doing this right in the contest.

avexkoo

13th Nov 2007, 07:15 PM

Well I wouldn't enter a contest like that Kakashi Hitake, they probably just want to feel superior about themselves anyway.

Cinamun

13th Nov 2007, 09:01 PM

Well there is one contest that has admitted to handpicking them and the judges and hosts are all friends, plus have the same opinions. The host has even admitted to doing this right in the contest.

Well thats disturbing and goes right back to what bP said on the first page of this debate: We have to report that sort of behavior. Would the Miss Universe crown not be stripped away from it's winner had an investigation found it to have been won by secret undercover collaboration between host and judges?

Speaking of which....

I remember the homecoming queen in my old high school lost her crown after it was brought to the student council's attention that the votes were rigged due to her past sexual relationship with the president of the homecoming committee was brought to light and certain votes couldn't be accounted for. That scandal sure was fun to watch :p LOL

Scout

13th Nov 2007, 10:49 PM

That the host and judges are friends does not mean they are conspiring to fix the contest for a specific entrant.

I'm just going to take BP's advice and report suspicious activities. I've only ever reported one contest (for someone entering their own contest) but in hindsight I should have reported another. I think it is very rare that a contest is actually fixed but rather that people have such different tastes.

Props to those who run contests and who judge. It's hard work accompanied by lots of complaints and not nearly enough chocolate.

MissTech

14th Nov 2007, 12:42 PM

Hence why hyperlinks are so awesome, because if a judge decides to only look at the final entry that the host hyperlinks to, they can stay out of the thread and be completely unaware of other's opinions.

I agree completely, and as a matter of fact, I am on dial-up and it takes forever for a thread full of pictures to load for me. I love when the host does hyperlinks, because it allows me (when I judge) to just go to the entries directly and not have to wait 10 minutes a piece for the pages to load. When I judge, I rarely go look through the thread itself. My time is limited and when I judge, I am there to look at the entries, and not what other people have to say about them.

Pors

14th Nov 2007, 04:14 PM

I think I must be one of the rare ones here. Other than a few names I've seen in contests or judgings on an ongoing basis, I don't really know anyone on this site. I've had some pm's back and forth but that's about it. I've only been in a couple of contests (both hosted by the same person) where it was so obvious they were best friends with some contestants and the second time I dropped out. I think they were very young and probably didn't even realize how bad it looked.

So if you ever see me in a contest or judging one just remember I don't have any "connections"! LOL

Freelancer_SC

14th Nov 2007, 07:42 PM

It's also hard not to wonder if favoritism is in play when some people don't even post pictures in their entries and yet advance... :disagree: :screwy:

honeynutcows_SC

14th Nov 2007, 08:03 PM

with people saying hosts that are friends with judges are always a bad thing i think are wrong yes when judges have freinds because they have the same opinions or so they can fix things ARE VERY wrong but sometimes i think it can be a good thing because they picked there freind because they know they are reliable truthful and fair so they wont have any shock surprises with there choice of judges
also what free said ive seen this in two contests one where the selected person was amazing but shouldnt have won and one where they didnt deserve to win and didnt submit 2 photos but still won (not on this phorum)

Psy10

14th Nov 2007, 11:30 PM

It's also hard not to wonder if favoritism is in play when some people don't even post pictures in their entries and yet advance... :disagree: :screwy:
I don't get this. How is that possible? What did the judges score then? :confused:

beeps

14th Nov 2007, 11:40 PM

It's also hard not to wonder if favoritism is in play when some people don't even post pictures in their entries and yet advance...
Yes, Id like to know how this is possible as well. Unless the pictures just werent showing up for you (Ive had this problem before). There is obviously something wrong with how the entry was judged, and contestants/judges/on-lookers should really PM me if something as strange as that happens. If you dont bring it to my attention so that I can deal with it, its not the judge/host's fault that they got away with it...

Just a note to everyone who may be too shy/hesitant (or something) to PM me about fishy contest situations: I like being informed about something strange going on in contests, and I dont even mind looking into such situations even if they turn out to be not an issue. The contests forum is my favorite forum to moderate, and I take everything anyone brings to my attention seriously and sincerely. So the next time you think "Oh I dont want to PM boolPropped with my problem, its probably no big deal," think again and just PM me anyways. Im a nice person and dont bite... to hard ;)

Cher

15th Nov 2007, 12:41 AM

I know one of the contests Free is talking about. I was lurking! :D The contestant that won is one of the favorites/populars out here and I have to say, she does great work! I didn't say anything about it because I wasn't in that contest! I thought for sure someone would have told a mod. But what can the mod have done? The contest was over! To tell you the truth. I'm getting SO tired about whats going on out here with the contests (some of them)! I just want a normal contest that doesn't call for sim-posing etcccccccc!!!!!!!! I'm getting very frustrated, the favoritism in contests just keep going on and on! And to be honest, I see no end to it! That would be impossible! It's going on in every contest I'm in hehehe! :blink: We just have to learn to use our better judgement when choosing a contest! Look at your judges, look at their work, look at your host. What more can we do! This is what I usually do. But I have been slacking and not looking!

About friends picking friends to judge. I pick my own judges! Only because I know their fair! Now most of you know Jaela, your going to say because we're friends she won't give good scores and be fair? I don't think so. Essa etc. was also one of my judges, you can't get any more fair then those two!

boolPropped, you sure you don't bite :D I have PMed you for problems. But nothing like whats going on in this thread. :anime:

Stormy_SC

15th Nov 2007, 04:32 PM

I'm fair too!! :D

Cher

15th Nov 2007, 05:05 PM

I'm fair too!! :D

I don't know you very well. But I think your fair and I went into one of your contests and it was great!

I don't have many friends out here believe it or not. Most have moved on to another place and don't come here much/anymore :( I miss them! Only a handful. So I guess I'm alot like pors " I don't have any "connections" out here. I'm an old lady lol and old enough to be most of you out here- mom's! :D

Pors

15th Nov 2007, 05:14 PM

Glad to see there's another "mature" person around here Michele. :howdy:

MissTech

15th Nov 2007, 07:02 PM

So I guess I'm alot like pors " I don't have any "connections" out here. I'm an old lady lol and old enough to be most of you out here- mom's! :D

Me too... On both accounts. :)

feefee234234

15th Nov 2007, 08:12 PM

I haven't done any of the contests for the sims so I don't know first hand on who is doing what but I think people naturally judge with some sort of preconception about people. If they look friendly,how they talk or walk,its all based on how we grew up. I don't think its right. We had a radio contest here and it sounded as if the host wanted the army guy to win from the start and he won sometimes it does make you wonder. But people have opinions of things and sometimes that does factor in and I think there is a lot of that . If I was having a contest giving away 10,000 dollars and the contestants were paris hilton, your grandma, and the president ..the judge of the contest is you doesn't matter what you are judging, you probably already have a slight opinion on who you think needs the money

sakrayami

16th Nov 2007, 02:21 AM

Welcome in the club MicheleD, Pors and Misstech! ;) I am also mature, not old, but
older than most people here i think :) I know about some other ladies around here too, who are not among the youngest, and i think that's fine!

Over to topic: On a big phorum like this, it's only natural that people find each other and make friends. If i were going to held a contest, i would definately choose people i knew something about to be my judges, and it wouldn't be anything wrong if one of them were a friend of mine. When people make friends, one can't expect them to avoid contests held by their friends. The problem occures when judges obviously play favoritism. I am not even sure if this is a big problem or not, but as BP says, one have to report it when it happens. If a socalled friend of mine did appear as a contestant in a contest i should judge, i would have been more outspoken to him or her, and wouldn't score them higher course of friendship so they should get that star. Same focus on enemies! lol, not that i think i have any enemies here, but i wouldn't judge a person i disliked lower, if that person actually made awsome pics! That's not professional, that's just stupid. Well, just some few thoughts from me. But Seriously, i have also noticed that some are out for power, and i dislike that VERY much. The only people who can be scary here are the mods, not that BP look so dangerous, but they sure can kick some butts :) And i wouldn't start fighting with Delpy :D So mods, i hope i can PM you if i notice any backstabbing against judges in contest, unfortunately i know what i am talking about. Hopefully we are not ranked after
popularity?

Annelae

16th Nov 2007, 02:34 AM

Frankly, if I was a favorite and I entered knowing that I'd win, I would consistently post crappy pictures with no effort- which takes out the fun of being in a contest! I post crappy pictures - but at least I'm in it for fun!

But I haven't encountered any problems like favoritism before in a contest I was in. :D

nixie_SC

16th Nov 2007, 04:26 AM

I just need everyone's input on this (http://www.guildwars.com/events/contests/halloween2007/default.php) , do you think its a fair result?

Annelae

16th Nov 2007, 05:32 AM

The grand prize winner's entry was so cute but kind of inferior. I liked some of the Honorable Mention and Winner entries but the Grand Prize left me blinking like this > :blink:

Scout

16th Nov 2007, 05:49 AM

I just need everyone's input on this (http://www.guildwars.com/events/contests/halloween2007/default.php) , do you think its a fair result?

Yes.

Opinions vary from person to person. That you have a different opinion than the judges does not mean they aren't being fair. Nor does it mean you aren't being fair with your choice. Post which you think should have won and others will disagree with you as well. That is how opinions work.

nixie_SC

16th Nov 2007, 05:55 AM

Thank you both for answering,

was having some debate with other people over those entries and am beginning to think my judgemnet was flawed, just needed a confirmation.

PennyTheCorgi

17th Nov 2007, 11:28 PM

I just need everyone's input on this (http://www.guildwars.com/events/contests/halloween2007/default.php) , do you think its a fair result?

It's hard to say. Each person is going to have their opinion and i can respect that, but I did think that some of the honorable mentions were better then some of the winners and deserved more credit. Some of the halloween drawings in honorable metions looked like they took alot more time and effort then some of the costumes that won. :shrug:

Jordan09

18th Nov 2007, 01:53 AM

Whenever I judge I admit I see a name of a certain member with a good past record of good enteries and expect to see good work from them and expect to give them high scores, but thats as far as it goes. I can only judge someone on the work Im judging and if they do a cr*p peice unlike there usually great work I still have to give them points for their cr*p present work and not their previous things. I also in some contests I have judged have given great scores to someone in one round but later in that contest been completely let down and given them lower scores. So no Im not bias as to the person or the persons previous work that I am judging on.

feistyredhead

22nd Nov 2007, 04:01 AM

The very first house building contest I entered in shortly after I joined, I won and placed 1st in each round and NO ONE knew me at all. While I do see it in ALOT of beauty contests, Its not as prevalent in housing contests which is why I limit myself to those types where following directions and personal creativity is more apparent & appreciated.

applesoveroranges

22nd Nov 2007, 07:21 AM

It may just be favoritism, or it may not be, it's the way people interperet it.

I have create a contest that has gone through 4 cycles. 2 of which i hosted, and 2 which I stood by. For the first three cycles, I remember recieving persistant complaints about favoritism from the same people. I wondered, if they think so, why did they not report it and continue participating?
And from my point of view, I thought some were just sore losers(I would put it nicer if i could). They were new, and I keep repeating, 'If this is one of your first contests, please read the judges' critique's carefully for future reference. Contests for new users may be hard at first, but it's a learning experience.'(summed up)
The only chance I will commit favoritism(without intention, of course), is if you've given me a VERY bad impression without reason.
I think, If i were to ask any user as to whom should win, the answer should be obvious.

I have been a host AND a contestant, from my experience, sometimes it's just not fair to the hosts and judges being accused of commiting favoritism.

(fiestyredhead- btw, i LOVE your avatar LMAO XD)