Transsexuality and Transgenderism

[lockshockbarrel]

Is "transgenderism" even a word? (Heh, maybe that should be the debate) Sorry if it bugs anyone. (Well, not really, but...)

Ok, here's the real debate. (Uh, for anyone who is unsure, a transsexual is someone who has or wants to have surgery to become the opposite sex. A transgendered person is anyone whose mental gender disagrees with their biological sex)

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

I think that transgender-ity is an unchangable part of who a person is, so... technically it's a choice like homosexuality is a choice because they don't have to express their gender, but if they don't, they'll be unhappy, so they should definitely have the right to do whatever surgeries or use whatever facilities they want to in order to feel like they belong in their body.

I also think it would be pretty neat if we didn't rely on male and female so much, own up to the fact that some people just don't fit in either one. Special bathrooms and driver's licences would probably make it a lot easier for some people.... However, since the odds of transgenderism are only like 1 in 1000, bathrooms might not be that neccessary, but driver's licences definitely.

[thothep]

Well, I've been seeing unisex bathrooms popping up in more and more places...

I think we do need to change our societal view on gender, because there are possibilities other than male and female. And there are/have been societies that recognized further options (at least one Native American society recognized a man-souled woman, or something like that), but I can't recall any that were completely open on gender roles. I do think the year of counselling before a sex change operation is a good thing, because it is a permanent change.

I feel that if someone truly feels the need to change their physical gender to match their psychological gender they should have the right to choose so. But I also feel that if we could break down some of the gender walls fewer would really feel the need. Though there would still be people who felt the need to change, there will always be people who just don't feel like they can fit in somewhere as they are.

I also found a documentary on gender-queer people I saw recently absolutely fascinating, and, quite frankly, I could identify a lot with some of the people profiled. Gender-queer, rejecting being identified to a gender. If not for the fact my family mostly can't be bothered with gender norms I might well have been struggling like them.



Hmm, maybe I'll dig up studies for support later, but I'm tired now. I did do some research on this a few years ago... (psychology student strikes again)

[Fayreview]

Yes, i do believe they exist and the from what I can tell the people who go through are sure of what they want.

To anyone who doubts I'd recommend "TransAmerica" With felicity Huffman and Kevin Zegers (may be off on the spelling there)

[Calalily]

I do think that it exists, and is a real condition. Some transgendered people, when their chromosomes have been studied, rather than have "XX" (girl) or "XY" (boy), they have "XXY" or "XXYX".

I think that they should have the right to have surgery - for goodness sake we let breast and penis augmentation exist without batting an eyelid. As far as changing gender ideas - there shouldn't be a "third" group - that would hold too much stigma for those identifying with that group. But with medical certification from treating doctors, transgendered people should be able to pick their gender - not just be stuck with the one given at birth.

Transgendered people here in South Australia can do that, last time I heard. To spend $20,000+ on an operation, and living like a woman (in order to qualify for the operation here, one has to live and work as a woman for 2 years, and all the counselling) to go through the hardship - they should be able to change their birth certificate.

[stylequeen_SC]

I think it is a good idea for the patient to have a year of therapy before having the life changing surgery. The surgery is irreversible (is that a word?) and they have to be sure they're making the right choice. As calalily said, we let breast augmentation exist, but you can always have another surgery to counter-act or balance out the first surgery. Gender alteration surgery you cannot change: once you've had it done there's no quick fix and no changes to be made, you have effectively ruined your life if you make the wrong decision. If we let it happen so easily then could you imagine if someone woke up with the wrong genitals because they'd had the operation while under the influence of alcohol. The surgery is something to be taken very seriously so yes, I think therapy is a good idea

[Fayreview]

Calalily - Sorry to point this out, but just so we don't get confused some people actually are genetically "XXY" these people are male, but infertile. But men none the less.

[Doc Doofus]

There are some XY women as well. I saw a thing on TV about a woman who had lived all her life as a woman. She was born with female genitalia, was attracted to men, grew up and married, and lived her whole life secure in the knowledge she was a woman... until a blood test determined that she had XY chromosomes. She thought it was funny; it didn't bother her to discover that, nor did it seem to bother her husband.

Y chromosomes are just a mammal thing. Other types of animals don't have Y chromosomes that determine sex. The sex of most non-mammal animals is determined by environmental things like incubation temperature or water pH. That's one of the reasons that global warming could be catastrophic to the environment.

I used to breed killifish as a hobby. Some killifish and cichlids are difficult to breed because you will get batches of all males or all females out of a set of hundreds of eggs. That's a very frustrating experience. I used to go to club meetings and listen to biologists argue about whether there were any ways to work around the problem.

[A sudden dramatic thought occurs to me! Maybe the rise of mammals has something to do with the Y chromosome. If the extinctions at the end of the Permian, Jurassic and Cretaceous ages caused environmental problems that messed up the sex ratios of non-mammals, perhaps that was one reason mammals better survived the extinction events. Whoa...]

[crocobaura]

I don't think transexuals trully change their sex, mainly because it cannot be done. Sure, they can have plastic surgeries and hormonal treatment that can make them look and sound like the opposite sex, but these changes are only surface changes. The DNA and chromozome pattern remain the same and they are not able to have children other than as defined by their respective DNA. Moreover, their southern bits usually stay the same because transplants don't work in the area and there's lots of sensory loss in the region.

[stylequeen_SC]

You can have lifechanging surgery to change the 'southern bits' crocobaura.

[crocobaura]

Well, you can, males at least. They can have reconstruction surgeries and their skin reshaped into a vagina, but in the process much of the regions sensitivity is lost, and well, not everyone wants that. What's the use in having the surgery if you can't enjoy sex afterwards? And for females, lets just say that before everything they will need to find a suitable donor, and then transplants require them to take a lot of drugs to turn off their immune system so that their body will not reject the donated organs, which will actually make them easy targets for lots of diseases. And even if by some miracle they do find a suitable donor, no doctor will gurantee that the transplant will last. And it will never work like the real thing and they can actually say goodbye to having pleasure form sex.

[Calalily]

I don't think transexuals trully change their sex, mainly because it cannot be done.

There are many transgendered people who have "the full op" - for girls who want to be boys, and boys who want to be girls. It just costs a lot - and often it takes long years to save up for it.

And plenty enjoy sex - I have had pre-op and post-op transgendered friends - and while the surgery is painful - it works well. They're now doing it in Thailand it works so well, and rather than go through the counselling, some people opt for a holiday in Thailand to have it done (cheaper).

As for fertility and having children - they're not going to have children, and we don't usually categorise infertile people as "genderless" - or the opposite gender - so transgendered people shouldn't have to do that either. :)

[stylequeen_SC]

Yes. I read that sex can still be pleasurable after the surgery

[crocobaura]

There are many transgendered people who have "the full op" - for girls who want to be boys, and boys who want to be girls. It just costs a lot - and often it takes long years to save up for it.

And plenty enjoy sex - I have had pre-op and post-op transgendered friends - and while the surgery is painful - it works well. They're now doing it in Thailand it works so well, and rather than go through the counselling, some people opt for a holiday in Thailand to have it done (cheaper).

As for fertility and having children - they're not going to have children, and we don't usually categorise infertile people as "genderless" - or the opposite gender - so transgendered people shouldn't have to do that either. :)


Well, an infertile male is still a male and an infertile female is still a female. However and infertile male trangenderd into a female is still a male biologically. Their DNA did not change and should they be involved in some illegal matters where DNA would be given as evidence then regardless of whatever look they have, they will still be assigned to their biological gender rather to the aquired gender and will be convicted based on that rather than on what their ID might indicate as being their gender.
Also, you say that plenty of them enjoy sex. Let's jsut say that plenty is not all. I saw a documentary once about male transexuals, most of them were unwilling to have that specific surgery, simply because it highly diminished their chances of having an orgasm afterwards. As for women who get male bits surgically is physically impossible because they will not have any feeling from the new organ. Yes,it might look nice to have the full options but they will be completely useless other than for aesthethic purposes.

[Calalily]

Depends how old your documentary is :) The surgery has come ahead in leaps and bounds.

In general, the follow-up studies they reviewed found that sexual satisfaction improved significantly after SRS (sexual reassignment surgery), and that most MFs experienced orgasms, some regularly. Even among FMs, sexual satisfaction after treatment was significantly higher than before treatment, despite the lack of a really satisfactory surgical procedure for FM genital reconstruction.

Found here (http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/transsexual_surgery_its_pros_and_cons.htm)

Their DNA did not change and should they be involved in some illegal matters where DNA would be given as evidence then regardless of whatever look they have, they will still be assigned to their biological gender rather to the aquired gender and will be convicted based on that rather than on what their ID might indicate as being their gender.

We don't stop people from having face lifts because they might have committed crimes, so we shouldn't stop gender surgery. Not to mention that there was one serial killer (maybe Andrei Chikatilo - but this is from memory) who had a different blood type in his blood to his semen. DNA is also not used as often as it seems in criminal cases - compared to CSI and stuff you see on television.

There are already plenty of transgendered people in jail - and they were caught for their crimes - so I don't think it's a problem Transgendered People in the Criminal Justice System (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/hbigda/2001/26_whittle.htm)

[crocobaura]

Depends how old your documentary is The surgery has come ahead in leaps and bounds.



Quote:
In general, the follow-up studies they reviewed found that sexual satisfaction improved significantly after SRS (sexual reassignment surgery), and that most MFs experienced orgasms, some regularly. Even among FMs, sexual satisfaction after treatment was significantly higher than before treatment, despite the lack of a really satisfactory surgical procedure for FM genital reconstruction.


Well, lets just say that I see such estimations as most and some appropriate in relation to already damaged body parts, but to take a healthy and well functioning body part and mutilate it into something that works sometimes and not for everyone just doesn't count as a success in my book.





We don't stop people from having face lifts because they might have committed crimes, so we shouldn't stop gender surgery. Not to mention that there was one serial killer (maybe Andrei Chikatilo - but this is from memory) who had a different blood type in his blood to his semen. DNA is also not used as often as it seems in criminal cases - compared to CSI and stuff you see on television.

There are already plenty of transgendered people in jail - and they were caught for their crimes - so I don't think it's a problem Transgendered People in the Criminal Justice System


My comment about DNA was meant to support my view that a true sex change is not possible. You are what you are born, and if someone gets involved in a crime that requires DNA testing they cannot say that the samples collected do not belong to them because they are different gender from the samples taken. Genetically they are the same, and should they be cloned, the clone will look just like them before the surgery.

[thothep]

Well, lets just say that I see such estimations as most and some appropriate in relation to already damaged body parts, but to take a healthy and well functioning body part and mutilate it into something that works sometimes and not for everyone just doesn't count as a success in my book.


Problem there, is that the mind is a very powerful thing, and your thoughts and feelings really do influence the rest of your body. In the mind of a pre-op transsexual the parts they want to change are not functioning well, because they should not be there. Every time it functions as it should for the original gender of their body it is painful to them inside because it is a clear mark of something that will always feel wrong. even a partially functional construct will feel better than a fully funtional curse of nature. And it has been proven that attempts to change a person's psychological gender do not work, in fact, such attempts have found results such as suicide.

And as far as the DNA test thing goes... what a laugh. Did you know there are women who do not test as the parent of the children they gave birth to? I even saw where one set of tests said it was more likely the woman's brother was the second parent of her child rather than her. This second set of DNA was only evident in her ovaries and one other organ, if I recall correctly, and in those places her standard DNA was missing. There are too many question marks around DNA testing for me to find that as a reason to say a person has not transitioned genders anything more than laughable. And a clone wouldn't necessarily look exactly like someone, health, diet, activity and even the state of the womb we developed in have their effects on our development. In fact, the womb can be a drastic influence. Both male and female genitalia start out exactly the same (can't remember when differentiation occurs), and non-standard conditions during development can actually cause even a basic, two chromosomed (I think there's at least nine variations documented), individual to develop the wrong way. Where's your DNA standing then?

Sure, we have a ways to go with the surgery yet, but, as with any medical procedure, developments are being made and it is being improved. If something as relatively simple as the surgery can heal a fractured identity I don't think we have the right to deny them the opportunity.

[TingTong]

Isn't it harder to change from female to male then the other way around? Anyways...the chromosomes are always the same no matter how much surgery and hormones they take!

[crocobaura]

Problem there, is that the mind is a very powerful thing, and your thoughts and feelings really do influence the rest of your body. In the mind of a pre-op transsexual the parts they want to change are not functioning well, because they should not be there. Every time it functions as it should for the original gender of their body it is painful to them inside because it is a clear mark of something that will always feel wrong. even a partially functional construct will feel better than a fully funtional curse of nature. And it has been proven that attempts to change a person's psychological gender do not work, in fact, such attempts have found results such as suicide.

And as far as the DNA test thing goes... what a laugh. Did you know there are women who do not test as the parent of the children they gave birth to? I even saw where one set of tests said it was more likely the woman's brother was the second parent of her child rather than her. This second set of DNA was only evident in her ovaries and one other organ, if I recall correctly, and in those places her standard DNA was missing. There are too many question marks around DNA testing for me to find that as a reason to say a person has not transitioned genders anything more than laughable. And a clone wouldn't necessarily look exactly like someone, health, diet, activity and even the state of the womb we developed in have their effects on our development. In fact, the womb can be a drastic influence. Both male and female genitalia start out exactly the same (can't remember when differentiation occurs), and non-standard conditions during development can actually cause even a basic, two chromosomed (I think there's at least nine variations documented), individual to develop the wrong way. Where's your DNA standing then?

Sure, we have a ways to go with the surgery yet, but, as with any medical procedure, developments are being made and it is being improved. If something as relatively simple as the surgery can heal a fractured identity I don't think we have the right to deny them the opportunity.


Actually, I'm not denying anyone anything. They are free to do unto their bodies as they like, it's their body, not mine. When I said that transexuals themselves find the procedure unsatisfactory, I did nothing more than cite the view of some people who actually did it and thought it was not the same. Their opinions were so strong that they have determined other transexual friends of theirs not to undergo the said procedure. If you as a heterosexual without gender identity issues and without having undergone the porcedure think that the said procedure is an effective one, then who am I to say the contrary when I have nothing to support my views than some opinions I've heard on TV?

Regarding the DNA issues, exceptions from the rule do not invalidate the rule. Recessive genes do become active once in a while, like blue eyed white skin blond haired childeren born to black eyed, dark skin, dark hair parents, but that does not make the child less theirs. And if you're telling me that a person becomes the opposite gender just because of some plastic surgery, then why is it that we do not expect transexuals to have children after the surgery? After all they've changed their sex, right?

[thothep]

First off, don't call me heterosexual. I am a lesbian bordering on gender-queer. I have been through counseling for depression related to my identity. And I am a much stronger person now than before. Frankly, I would far rather be neuter than female, but I won't go under the knife unless pain is interfering with my day to day existence.

Secondly, nothing I said there has anything to do with recessive genes. I was speaking of people who actually have two sets of DNA, entirely separate sets. And most of what I was talking about was aimed at pointing out that our understanding of DNA is still quite murky. I also spoke of how our development can be influenced by factors outside of DNA, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia and androgen insensitivity syndrome. And then there's the 5-Alpha Reductase Syndrome, which has, so far, only been documented in three-gender cultures (Imperato-McGinley et al., 1974; Gilbert Herdt, 1990).

Third, yes, there are people who have not had satisfaction achieved from the surgery. But as I said, the procedures are developing and improving every day. What one person experienced a year, or even a month ago is not what another will experience next month or a year from now. I do feel the long counselling process set up to gain approval for the procedure is a necessary step.

Sex is physical, gender is mental. My opinion is that two-gender cultures' gender/sex standards are overly restrictive and need revision. If someone's gender identity is strongly enough in opposition to how their body happened to be formed that they go through the painful and, yes, potentially unsatisfactory, process of reconstructing that body, the least we can do is acknowledge that their identity is that gender.

[triplea_SC]

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Yes

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

Why not?

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

This is the only problem I hate with transgenderism. The Unisex bathroom. To me, whatever sex you feel your are is completely irrelevent when it comes to things like bathrooms. What matters is what part you have down below and which bathroom suits it better. As for stuff like ID cards, I don't really care.

[bambibaby]

You people are idiots. God created man and woman, defined by genitals. There is the occasional hermaphrodite, but it is not a new gender, or undefined. It is simply both. You can't be not a male and not a female because there is nothing else.

[BusterBrown]

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Yea, I think it exists.

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

Absolutely. It's their body, life, and money, and I think that as long as they are making an educated and mature decision, they can do whatever makes them happy.

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

On the bathroom thing, I agree with triplea. It depends on what works better. As for IDs and whatnot, I don't think it really matters. What is important on IDs is the right name, address, numbers, etc, not gender. And as for the year of therapy, I definitely don't think that should be done away with. A gender change is absolutely life changing. And it's permanent, so I think the year of therapy is good, because it forces the person to really consider if they want to go through all the trouble.

(Just the opinion of a straight girl who's never had to go through anything like this...)

[Night Revenant]

You people are idiots. God created man and woman, defined by genitals. There is the occasional hermaphrodite, but it is not a new gender, or undefined. It is simply both. You can't be not a male and not a female because there is nothing else.
And people who use God in their arguments fail.

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Yes, it exists. My partner is a transgendered male, meaning that he has the mentality of a woman and one day (like after I have children) he wants to have a sex change. I know this is who he is, and isn't a "phase" or "choice" after all the bullcrap he has had to put up with from people, and guess what? Male or female, he's still the same person.

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

I may be a bit biased, but yes, yes I do. People really don't understand how it is to be one gender mentally and one gender physically, it really does have an impact on the psychological aspect. The way it was described to me was they don't feel complete, something is missing and it really does cause annoyance and frustation.

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

I'm all for the year of therapy before someone is approved for a sex change. Why, you ask? Oh, come on. There's enough people who say that they are bisexual or gay to "be trendy", can you imagine the drunken bets? "I dare you to become a woman!" That and there's a lot of changes in lifestyle to be considered, if they have a partner...ah, yeah, I would like some dual counseling with me and my partner before he has his operations. This is just me though.

[thothep]

Night Revenant, you have just gained a heck of a lot of respect from me. Just had to say that.

[Modestgurl88]

You people are idiots. God created man and woman, defined by genitals. There is the occasional hermaphrodite, but it is not a new gender, or undefined. It is simply both. You can't be not a male and not a female because there is nothing else.
I wouldn't say that.We have no proof there is a god so using that in your argument isn't a good choice.Also which people are you calling idiots? People who feel they are born into the wrong body...people who aren't offended by that...people who have open minds...? I say we should have an open mind about this.There are real cases of where people have felt they were born in the wrong body since childhood.

[Doc Doofus]

There seems to be some ignorance here about what is involved in female to male transsexual surgery. There are no "donor" organs involved. Sheesh.

Here's the deal. The female clitoris and the male penis originally begin, in babies, as the same organ. It's under the influence of testosterone and other hormones that the male babies, in the womb, have their clitoris transformed into a penis.

As adults, the same process can occur. It's called "virilization." When some women are exposed to large amounts of testosterone and/or other male hormone analogues, the female clitoris enlarges and extends itself. So that is what SRS doctors do -- they prescribe large amounts of testosterone for their female-to-male patients for a few years before surgery. It does not generally turn the clitoris into a big pornstar 10-incher, but it does enlarge it enough to give the plastic surgeons something to work with later. The result is a small but sexually sensitive penis, although not cosmetically perfect.

That doesn't sound appetizing to you? If that's what they want, let them have it. What right do any of us have to pass judgment on what other people do with their own bodies? MYOB.

[Chelleypie]

You people are idiots. God created man and woman, defined by genitals. There is the occasional hermaphrodite, but it is not a new gender, or undefined. It is simply both. You can't be not a male and not a female because there is nothing else.

Thank you for making all Christians and other believers in God look like slime. Thanks so much. So Christian of you to call people idiots.

And thanks, Doc, for informing us all about how these surgeries are done! It's easier to form opinions when I have most of the facts! :) Not sarcasam, unlike the above.

My best friend Elvis has two older brothers. The oldest brother, Lyn, is in the process of becoming female. The middle brother, Aaron, is as man as you can get. I believe Lyn was diagnosed as having the extra X chromosome, but I cannot be sure, as I've only ever spoken to Lyn once on the phone well over a year ago. He answered the phone as Becky Love. But I believe Lyn is a person who was born into the wrong body. It happens, and sometimes you have to get drastic to fix it.

[Calalily]

I'm all for the year of therapy before someone is approved for a sex change. Why, you ask? Oh, come on. There's enough people who say that they are bisexual or gay to "be trendy", can you imagine the drunken bets? "I dare you to become a woman!"

I think the therapy is good - it also helps a lot of people transition. Men often don't realise some of the finer problems that come with being a woman.

But as for drunken bets - a sex change is kinda different. It doesn't have the glamour attached to it - merely because once it's done it's irreversible. I also think that most people would never consider how it is to feel that you don't "fit your skin" - often getting it mixed up with sexual orientation, when it is far more self centred (meaning centred around the image of the self, rather than the sexual proclivities) than just what one wants to do in bed, and how they wish to do it.

So Christian of you to call people idiots.

No worse than calling them baby murderers :wtf: . The Catholic Church actually accepts transgendered people due to the chromosomal differences, and acknowledges that in Vatican documents. I found out when I tried to look for an opposing view on transgendered people, and assumed the Church would be the place. That assignment stalled really fast lol.

They do however make the stipulation that while they acknowledge this condition, it is unacceptable to be in what would be considered a gay relationship based on the at birth sexuality. This isn't my personal view - just telling you the full stance that they have taken.

[Night Revenant]

calalily: By drunken bets, I meant more impulsive decisions (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Samantha) made without considering the effects it will have on yourself and those around you. I call them drunken bets because, well, most drunken bets fit that description like a glove. Apologies, I should've clarified what I meant in my first post.

The link contains a story about a man who decided to get a sex change operation and after 4 years of living as a woman, she decided to change back into a man. I think that if this person was forced to undergo therapy before the sex change, they would've not gone through with it.

Night Revenant, you have just gained a heck of a lot of respect from me. Just had to say that. Thank you.

[Sakura90]

IMO, I don't think a man can become a woman. He can have the surgeries and take hormones, but he can never truely become a woman. Instead of saying that he "became a woman" I would say that he is "living as a woman". Same thing with females. I have nothing against transsexuals, at all! :)

[boombands]

You people are idiots. God created man and woman, defined by genitals. There is the occasional hermaphrodite, but it is not a new gender, or undefined. It is simply both. You can't be not a male and not a female because there is nothing else.

In my experience you people are idiots is usually the beginning to a really weak argument. This case is no exception. I could attempt to argue this but I think that any argument of mine would go over your head.


Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)
Yes. This isn't debatable really.

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?
Of course. I don't see any reason to not let them. If it makes them happier and more comfortable why not? It doesn't hurt anyone else.

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)
I agree with the therapy. I think you should have to talk to someone a few times before you even get married. People jump into things too quickly. I think bathrooms are fine and as for drivers licenses, that's a tough one because that's all for the legal system.

[drawk]

Well considering that I'm Transgender (ftm) and 9 months on testosterone, I'd have to say yes, it does exist and no, it's not a choice.

"transplants require them to take a lot of drugs to turn off their immune system so that their body will not reject the donated organs,"

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard and it is entirely not true. There are no donors, it's an extension of the clitoris and skin graft from the arm.

My life has been hell for the past 21 some years because of this and it's not fun. I'd hate to witness first hand that people think of me as disgusting and whatnot, especially from this forum.

[Mumo_SC]

In all honesty....I believe that it isn't a choice, with what I have read and seen over the years, it is something that an individual needs to do to feel right within themselves. Being Christian I certainly wouldn't put someone down for needing and wanting to change there sexuality. It certainly isn't their fault, and I believe that they have every right to do what the need to do in order to be happy with themselves, an if that means getting a penis instead of a twat, more power too them. Some people really need to sit back think, if it was one of your family members that had this situation, would you condemn or slander them because they need to do what is right for them and that makes them happy? I certainly wouldn't, I would support their decision, even if I didn't understand it personally, but it wouldn't change the way I feel about them....They would/will get enough crap from people outside the home, and who can they turn too if their families are doing the same thing? Pretty much no-one. JMO.

[Nikisha]

Of course Transgenderism exists. And it's absolutely necessary that people who are transexual have the choice to have surgery. I'm all for the year of psychological counselling since this is an irreversible procedure.

I've met two transgenders, one waiting for surgery, one who already had it. And I can tell you, it's not fun what they had to go through all their lives. Not only did people make fun of them. The worst thing is that they have to deal with their own inner unhappiness. It must be horrible if you just don't feel right in your body. And I think everything should be done to give these people the chance to finally be happy.

It's kind of odd how so many people have plastic surgery, bigger boobs, liposuction etc. and everyone seems to accept it "because it helps the people to feel better". But when it comes to transgenders, people who are truly unhappy, people are intolerant.

[Rabid]

I think that, if you don't feel comfortable in your own skin and want to change genders in order to alleviate this, you shouldn't have to be stuck with what you are. Telling someone they can't have sex change surgery is like telling an obese person who is insecure and wants to get thin that they shouldn't lose weight. I'm perfectly happy with being a woman and wouldn't want to be a man for the world, but if others want to change gender, then it's fine with me. They shouldn't have to suffer in a body they don't want because the world doesn't see surgery fit. We obviously don't have a choice as to neither our gender nor our personality, and if the contrast between the two is too extreme, then by all means have the surgery (providing that it's what you want). I see transsexuality just as I do homosexuality- it's not a choice. You don't wake up in the morning and say, "I think I'm going to be gay today," and that makes it so. It's your body and it's your right to do what you will with it.

[kinneer_SC]

I would be interested to know what are the reasons for these people who wishes to change their genders. It is psychological, eg a person believes he is female and feels incomplete as one unless he has the correct gender. Or is it a more social influences, he believes he is female and society defines females in a certain way and so he wants to be seen in that certain way. Not sure if I explained that very well.

Society, or at least western societies are more liberals and same sex relationship are now gradually more acceptable. If this was furthered developed such that homosexual relationships are as common and acceptable as heterosexual relationships, would the desire to have the correct body type still be there?

Developing further, what if gender no longer applies to many of today`s barriers. Such as male and female may freely dress by their own desire rather than be restricted by their gender. Male can wear skirts, make ups etc and is seen as normal, or acceptable as woman wearing trousers or male clothing today. If society becomes more unisex in many areas, would the people who seek trans gender operation still want them?

[inhalingrainbow]

I'm the vice president of the GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) at my college. This also includes transgender individuals. I had an interesting conversation with one of our transgender members around halloween of last year. She was dressed as a woman, though she would be considered a man by most. It was her first time going out dressed as a woman. She said to me, "They told me to dress up for the carnival, but I decided not to. I dress up every other day of my life." I almost started crying. It upsets me to see these poor people trapped in bodies that they didn't choose for themselves and don't want. God wants people to be happy. If that means surgery, then good for them.

[longears15]

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Yes. I don't think it's a choice anymore than being gay/lesbian is a choice.

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

I don't think you can generalise on a point like this. This is something that would really have to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

Never having known anyone who is transsexual or transgender, and how they view themselves, I'm not sure how to answer this, but I think I'd be leaning towards yes. My understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you'd, say, be considering a person who is genetically male, but who identifies as female and may/may not have undergone hormone therapy and surgery.

I think that there would be a lot of people out there who would feel uncomfortable going into a female or male toilet and finding someone of the opposite physical gender in there. Drivers licences, I don't think it matters in the slightest. I've just pulled mine out to double check- here in Australia, we don't have gender on our licence anyway- just a photograph, name, address and DOB.

Anyone considering sex-change surgery, or even just starting on hormonal therapy, NEEDS to undergo extensive counselling in my opinion. It's a huge undertaking, physically, psychologically, etc. I'd imagine that many of these individuals would need an enormous amount of support right the way through the treatment process.


I think that in many cases, genetic-type abnormalities: pseudohermaphroditism, hermaphroditism, Turner's syndrome, Kleinfelter's syndrome, chimaeras, mosaics, etc., just to name a few, are a whole different ball game, mainly because they are recognised genetic abnormalities. I'm more familiar with those that crop up in animals, but my understanding with such conditions in humans is that the problems arise more because of the child's gender being ambiguous at birth. Take for example a male pseudohermaphrodite. These kids are genetic and gonadal males. They have testes, but due to incomplete masculinisation may have external genitalia more closely resembling a female baby and have been raised as girls as a result. I think this is probably less of an issue these days thanks to the availability of karyotyping, but obviously this would cause issues for them later in life. I think however as I said, that it is a different issue to that posed in the initial post.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I haven't deleted the responses to bambibaby as it would remove a lot of other opinions related to this thread, but please stay on the original topic from now on and do not respond to that one, please - that post was flaming and should be ignored as the rude, ignorant post that it was.

[Lola_SC]

It seems the people who do it, may have problems with their life. They may be unhappy, ungreatful, and feel like they don't belong. Just because they feel that way, I don't nessecarely think they should change theire gender. They should be happy with who they are, not what they could be.

[spiderviveka_SC]

Do you think that transsexuality and transgenderism exists? (Like, is it a choice or a part of you you can't change)

Of course it exists. Its a natural occurrence. I think it is just naturally hardwired into some people, and some people end up being transsexuals due to their environment. That really becomes a question of nature or nurture. I believe it can be either or both.

Do you think that people have the right to change their sex or genderbend, or do you think perhaps they shouldn't for whatever reason?

I see nothing wrong with it. For one, I don't what people do, as long as they are not hurting any unwilling person.

Secondly, I spent a few years of my life being what could be described as a "gender bender". I was younger, and it was easier for me to appear male than female. The resons behind this change is complicated, but I eventually relented and went back to presenting myself as a female, because it is "easier" this way, people are more accepting and friendly when you at least look "normal" (whatever the hell that is). I still feel more comfortable when I appear male. (though I never want to actually be male, because i despise that they primarily are responsible for how this world is so screwed up, and for my personal psychological problems)

But in my ideal existence, there would be no gender. No hate crimes, no sexual violence, no sexism, none of it. Unfortunately, that will never happen.

Do you think that there should be any changes to our societal and legal position on gender? (ie. making a third gender for driver's licences and public restrooms, or not having to go through a year of therapy before having a sex change operation)

I think that therapy before any optional surgery (i.e. breast implants, tummy tucks, etc.) should be mandatory, not just sex change operations.

As for the drivers license, I think its a terrific for a gender neutral option. Because even genetically, gender isn't so simple. There are more hermaphrodites than one would like to think. There are also cases of XY females, XX males, and XXY males. And thats just the physical aspect, psychology is infinitely more complex.

[spiderviveka_SC]

It seems the people who do it, may have problems with their life. They may be unhappy, ungreatful, and feel like they don't belong. Just because they feel that way, I don't nessecarely think they should change theire gender. They should be happy with who they are, not what they could be.



Then you obviously just don't understand.

This whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality is just asinine.


I'm ungrateful because I don't want to be female? Being female has caused me endless torment.

Years of sexual abuse. Discrimination and harassment at school and jobs. Do you have any idea what its like to be pregnant at age 12 as the result of a rape, only to be beaten a few months later and miscarry because a group of punks decided you were a "dike"?

Do you, like myself, and so many females I know, get cat called and leered at by strangers? Ever had some creep try to pull you in his car because you wouldn't prostitute yourself to him?

Well I have! And i live in a "first world country"!

And worst of all, don't you realize, that no matter how many strides we make in womens rights, no matter what we do, in our lifetime, we will still be the most prone members of society to violent crimes, we will still be paid less than men for equal work, and we will still be treated as second class citizens.

No, there is nothing here to be grateful for. Everything has made me and so many others like me stronger people. But I certainly am not grateful for having to live in fear, or any of the rest of this. If I had to chose, I would definitely not be female.

I can relate to people feeling like they are possessing an alien body. Who feel like they should be something else but are helpless to do anything about it.

You, my friend, are making lots of sweeping generalizations about things with which you have no experience. So until you do, don't tell people to be grateful, its just insulting.


P.S. sorry for double posting.

[millahnna]

As adults, the same process can occur. It's called "virilization." When some women are exposed to large amounts of testosterone and/or other male hormone analogues, the female clitoris enlarges and extends itself.

To add to this, it is not uncommon for many ftm trans/intersexed folks to start out with a statistically larger clitoris. No official studies have been done, but the byproduct of other studies related to sexual identity and sexual orientation issues is that many born girls who are boys in the brain may have higher level of testosterone than their average female counterparts of a more conventional nature from the get go. Obviously not going to be universally true in any sense, but a potentially statistically significant phenomena, regardless.

[crocobaura]

Then you obviously just don't understand.

This whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality is just asinine.


I'm ungrateful because I don't want to be female? Being female has caused me endless torment.

Years of sexual abuse. Discrimination and harassment at school and jobs. Do you have any idea what its like to be pregnant at age 12 as the result of a rape, only to be beaten a few months later and miscarry because a group of punks decided you were a "dike"?

Do you, like myself, and so many females I know, get cat called and leered at by strangers? Ever had some creep try to pull you in his car because you wouldn't prostitute yourself to him?

Well I have! And i live in a "first world country"!

And worst of all, don't you realize, that no matter how many strides we make in womens rights, no matter what we do, in our lifetime, we will still be the most prone members of society to violent crimes, we will still be paid less than men for equal work, and we will still be treated as second class citizens.

No, there is nothing here to be grateful for. Everything has made me and so many others like me stronger people. But I certainly am not grateful for having to live in fear, or any of the rest of this. If I had to chose, I would definitely not be female.

I can relate to people feeling like they are possessing an alien body. Who feel like they should be something else but are helpless to do anything about it.

You, my friend, are making lots of sweeping generalizations about things with which you have no experience. So until you do, don't tell people to be grateful, its just insulting.


P.S. sorry for double posting.


You seem to want to be a man for all the wrong reasons. Maybe you should just move to a better neighbourhood, hang out with different type of people.

[frankie]

Crocobaura, now I am not making assumptions or accusations here but it sure seems like you... deep down inside... don't agree with this or don't like it at all. If this is true, why not just admit it. Again, ONLY if it is true, so I am not saying it is. What you just last said right above me is proof that you do not understand a bit. Not even I as a gay man (and effeminate at times, too) fully understand. I have had many dreams and reveries about becoming a woman but the difference is that I only ever wanted to be born as one, not become one after being a man. I think it's because I fear that I would not look as good because I am that insecure and most importantly, no one will ever accept me at all. I don't think my family will ever talk to me again. To be alone and rejected (then again I have suffered rejection during K-12) but still. It's hard and when you don't go through what these people go through... it is just impossible to even make a comment that will make all the sense in the world. I have dressed up as a female plenty of times and have enjoyed it. But I don't think I would be ready for a sex change because there is still that part of me that enjoys having a penis. So I just would not be a good candidate to do this. I only recommend this to someone who is not only so sure, but who cannot stand and refuse to live with what they have as their bodies. I am not like that. I'm in between. My thing is, I don't act like a woman. I'm just an effeminate man which is a huge difference. Do you get what I am saying? I hope so because you really shouldn't be telling someone that they are doing this for any wrong reason. It may be wrong to you but not to them. :(

[BeechWell2]

I'd have to agree with Crocobaura, though. I can understand that people want to change their gender because their "natural" gender seems wrong to themselves. But not that they want to do so because their gender is discriminated against.
Well, no; I can sort of understand it, after what spiderviveka posted. But I cannot agree with it. Because that would make it reasonable for any female living under these conditions to want to become a man. Can this be good? For themselves? Can it change the dysfunct society around them? Rather do something against this kind of society or at least try to get out of it, than change your gender because you feel you are disadvantaged because of it.

[crocobaura]

Crocobaura, now I am not making assumptions or accusations here but it sure seems like you... deep down inside... don't agree with this or don't like it at all. If this is true, why not just admit it. Again, ONLY if it is true, so I am not saying it is. What you just last said right above me is proof that you do not understand a bit. Not even I as a gay man (and effeminate at times, too) fully understand. I have had many dreams and reveries about becoming a woman but the difference is that I only ever wanted to be born as one, not become one after being a man. I think it's because I fear that I would not look as good because I am that insecure and most importantly, no one will ever accept me at all. I don't think my family will ever talk to me again. To be alone and rejected (then again I have suffered rejection during K-12) but still. It's hard and when you don't go through what these people go through... it is just impossible to even make a comment that will make all the sense in the world. I have dressed up as a female plenty of times and have enjoyed it. But I don't think I would be ready for a sex change because there is still that part of me that enjoys having a penis. So I just would not be a good candidate to do this. I only recommend this to someone who is not only so sure, but who cannot stand and refuse to live with what they have as their bodies. I am not like that. I'm in between. My thing is, I don't act like a woman. I'm just an effeminate man which is a huge difference. Do you get what I am saying? I hope so because you really shouldn't be telling someone that they are doing this for any wrong reason. It may be wrong to you but not to them. :(

I haven't met a gay person, nor a transexual yet, so I cannot tell you how I would react to finding out this about someone I know, but even so, I believe that what people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their own business as long as it is consesual. I am not gay, and I doubt I'd ever date a transexual man simply because I like manly men, not effeminate types. Also, I've never been attracted by sexually ambiguous types either. However, what I told Spiderviveka, is simply an outsiders observation of her reasons. She has been abused by men repeatedly, and what does she want to do? Become a man. That is more like a cry for help than a reson for a sex change process. She wants to become the abuser, to escape her role as a victim. And that, requires qualified counsel for abused women, not a sex change operation.

[millahnna]

You'd be surprised at just how manly some FTM transsexuals can be though. In general I'd say the change isn't as pronounced in women as in men (ie gender born with, assume switching to opposite); most of the FTMs I've met end up looking a bit androgynous. But one friend I have totally caught me off guard when he told me he was born a she. He says that as a girl, people always teased him for being so manly anyway so the hormones and surgery were very successful for him. He's gorgeous and is getting male modeling contracts for small time catalogs now.

Of course it's not uncommon for folks to realize their sexual orientation isn't what they thought it was before they changed, as well so the dating thing gets even more complicated. And different people go through with different aspects of the procedure; many FTMs opt to keep their breasts for health reasons, for example.

Coco, in theory I agree with the ideas you are talking about. I wouldn't want someone to go through such a dramatic change just to protect themselves from sexism. But I offer up the idea that perhaps some who are born women take all of that misogyny more personally because they feel they ARE trapped in the wrong body. An analogy of a more conventional nature; many anti-gay people say that the high depression rates amongst homosexuals is a sign that being gay is a "wrong choice." Meanwhile, many of us pro-gay rights folks suggest that perhaps the depression is connected to the high disapproval they must endure from people who believe the first statement.

Put another way, I wonder if for some, there isn't a bit of a catch 22 going on there. Did my modeling friend decide to become a man because he was horrible with boys when he was a she? Or was he so horrible with boys because he hadn't yet figured out who he was? It should be noted that after completing his procedures, he ultimately realized he was a gay man.

And spider, I hope you find whatever path is the best for you. This bi-woman has been just as frustrated by the many things you detailed in your post. I am definitely a chick though so the route you suggest was not right for me. If it is right for you, then best wishes on your journey.

[frankie]

I guess I can see what you mean. But at the same time, it does come down to choice. If a person wants to change sex for whatever reason it may be, who are we to stop them from doing so? Besides, it takes about two years of counseling and they make you live life as your desired gender before the initial operation. So it is not like you just go and get it done like buying a product in a store.