Self Harm

[Phoeberg]

Okay, I had a quite a heated argument with a friend today about self-harm, especially self harm and drinking and smoking, and I just wondered what everyone here thought about it. Basically she argued that for her someone drinking or smoking, even in moderation, is self harm. Obviously when it comes down to it, it does harm your body, but she places it on the same level as self inflicted cuts, burns etc.


She also argued that no one would truly want to hurt themselves unless it was for attention. I found these remarks quite offensive and upsetting because at my high school self harm was a big problem, even if the faculty preferred to deny it. I would say that at least 1/3 of the girls in my homeroom self harmed at some point, possibly even 1/2 of them and as it was an all girls school that's half the class. One girl even slit her wrists in English and then left the room crying and the teacher did nothing. Yes, some of them were very obvious about what they were doing, for instance cutting their upper arm and rolling their shirts/jumpers up for us all to see (in fact this is how I know so many were doing it), but I also knew several girls who were intensely private and ashamed of what they were doing, and I think it was extrememly ignorant of my friend to say that these girls were attention seeking considering that the US has the 3rd highest number of deaths from self-harm in the world (Russia is 1st, Japan 2nd). That's pretty high price to pay just for some attention.


We also argued over the right of a self-harmer to be treated for self inflicted wounds. Should someone have the right to take up hopsital time for something they caused themselves when the time and skill of doctors could be used to treat "genuinely" (I am in no way saying that people with mental health issues are not ill, hence the quotation marks) sick people? Does this make self harmers selfish because in a way they have a choice?

[longears15]

Although smoking and drinking is harmful to one's self, unless it is turning into a self-destructive behaviour - for example, chronic alcoholism, I don't think it can be classified as 'self harm'. Drinking and smoking in moderation definitely doesn't rate alongside self-inflicted injuries in my opinion.

Arguing that self-harm is purely for attention - I too find those remarks deeply, deeply offensive. I've no doubt that there are many, mainly girls, who do do it for this reason; I remember a number at high school who were much as you describe - wearing tops to display cuts and scars, making reference to their harming, etc.

But I'll also take a deep breath and speak as someone who has self-harmed in the past. I used to cut myself - mainly on my upper arms where nobody would ever see. I was very depressed, and in severe pain from my then-undiagnosed CRPS (a neuropathic pain disorder) that had developed following a knee operation when I was 14. At 16, I had my surgeon telling me the pain was in my head, no real support from family or friends and although it probably makes no sense to anyone else, cutting helped both to release some of the tension and distract me from the pain in my leg. With no access to outside help, it was the only way I could deal with things. I think there are two people who know me in real life, who know that I used to harm myself - I don't see how that can be described as attention seeking.

You mentioned choice - for some people, I'm not sure that there is a choice as such. I think it's more of a compulsion, something they are driven to do, rather than something that they have clear and conscious control over. And yes, I do believe that they have the right to medical treatment. If they're causing serious damage to themselves then I think that there has to be underlying mental illness of some kind, and they need all the help they can get.

[xoxSugah]

Let her think what she wants. Life will teach her differently. If she wants to believe that smoking and drinking (in moderation) is self-harm and people who cut are just doing it for attention without even looking at the individual...let her.

I don't believe there's any group of people you generalize like that and be 100% right. Like Laura said, there are people who do it for attention, but there are SO many we never know about.

And, about the alcohol, there are a lot of benefits (http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html) to drinking in moderation. Some were known even in biblical times. Sure, alcohol can hurt you, but if you don't drink a whole big bunch and make a pig out of yourself with it it's good for you.

[slipknot93]

some people hide the scars. no one even knows. you can't say that's for attention.

[danirawr_SC]

I really hate when people say it's only for attention. That's absolute bull. They should feel glad they've never had to experience it, and therefore cannot understand.

I used to cut, and I hated anyone to see or know about it. It's not about attention at all, most of the time. And even in some cases when it is for attention, maybe the self-harmer believes that's the best way to let people know what's happening to them?

One of my friends was recently diagnosed with clinical depression and she's been cutting again, and she's ashamed to wear short sleeves. Would your friend say she does it for attention?

I'll never understand shallow, judgemental people. How they can live with themselves...
*breathes*

Rant over.

[Xunixeon]

I don't drink to self-harm myself unless I do it as the way to commit suicide with also taking my pills. For me, I drink moderately and think if you don't drink while depressed and don't drink too much in excess (like alcoholism and drug addiction), then it's alright. But cutting yourself is the major risk factor for suicide and must be treated because there are a lot of people that are committing suicide these days because of unresolved problems with their lives and mental disorder. I can tell you for the fact since I'm Bi/Polar and/or Schizoaffective with Asperger's that I have a lot of trouble dealing with not committing suicide or cutting myself. I used to be hospitalized for several times and I'm still worried about going to the hospital based on mom's whim.

Like if I have mom removed from me, I'll be okay. But if someone has their mom removed from them, they're be worse off than Jon and Kate's family (which I heard has a lot of problems lately). But still having a mental health problems doesn't mean you can't have kids or that you can't have a job or be independent. It means you just need help with some things like meds and other stuff.

But I don't think self-harm is the way to get attention. It is the way to escape problems like running away because you don't have the resources to cope with the problem. Even if you talk about self-harm, more likely than not you are able to self-harm or even kill yourself. When I was in county jail, the cops said that I'm just asking for pity when I'm trying to kill myself. I was tramatized because of the suicidal mood that I was in. I wasn't asking for pity but I was trying to run away from my problems.

[jillbean]

Sorry but your friend sounds like she totally lacks the ability to empathise.

In relation to if someone drinking or smoking, even in moderation, is self harm. It depends on what you count as self harm. Technically it is as it harms yourself. Although if your using it as a comparasent to cutting etc they are not the same although they do sometimes go hand in hand. For example a person who smokes or drinks does not do so with the intention of geting lung cancer or liver disease. Where as self harm is deliberate damage to your body, for what ever reason.

As for the attention part. Of course some people do it for the attention. They want their lives to be more intresting, people to pay attention to them, but i would not class these as real self harmers. Although you have to ask if someone is willing to do that just to get attention is there not some bigger problem at hand.
There are also the people who will only make it ovbious in the presence of friends or family on an occasion as they do not know how to reach out and ask for help.
Or there are the people who do not want anyone to know, friends or family. Who are ashamed of what they have done, And who think up of stories before hand to explain any cuts just incase it is noticed infornt of someone. I would say the majority or self harmers fall into this catogory.

Self harm is caused by depresion, mental heath problems etc. And is used for a coping mechanisum. Would you refuse (and im using you in the loose term this is not aimed at you) medical care to someone who had drank to much due to depresion, no you wouldnt. Self harm is still taboo. This is due to to lack of understanding. You cant see the damage so clearly of acholisam sp? Once you see self harm, its very in your face. Its hard to understand how someone can feel so depresed as to hurt themselfs like that. Also because the majority of people hide it, most people dont know they are coming into contact with people who self harm, and that they are surrounded by people suffering.

In regards to dening medical care in the america there is actually a bill of rights for people who self harm.

1.The right to caring, humane medical treatment


2.The right to participate fully in decisions about emergency psychiatric treatment, so long as no one’s life is in immediate danger

3.The right to body privacy


4.The right to have the feelings behind the SI validated


5.The right to disclose to whom they choose only what they choose


6.The right to choose what coping mechanisms they will use


7.The right to have care providers who are not afraid of SI


8.The right to have the role SI has played as a coping mechanism validated


9.The right not to be automatically considered a dangerous person simply because of self-inflicted injury

10.The right to have self-injury regarded as an attempt to communicate, not manipulate

You would not deny medical care to acholics, drug addics etc.

As everyone is being honsest in this thread so will i. I have suffered with self harm since i was 13 (im now 22) although over the past few years i have stoped for months, at ages 14-16 i was regularly cutting 4/5 times a week sometimes everyday. And to be honest the thought of taking away the little support that is out there is scary. When i was 15 i had a failed suicide attempt (thank god) whilst at the hospital i was told that i was a silly little girl and that it was a stupid thing to do. After i was forced to go to one 1 hour sesion with a psychologist in which i didnt speak one word, And that was it, no follow on, nothing. At school once one of my teachers noticed blood on my shirt from a cut and told my head of year (another teacher) who then procided to try to talk to me about it in the school libary where there was a whole class of people i knew. After that everyone knew about it. And i was teased and bullied for it. I dont think there is enough help out there. And the people who deal day to day with vunerable people/ children such as teachers dont have the correct or any training on how to deal with these situations. It is because of close minded people, that people hide this problem away and dont get the help they need for it.

[Xunixeon]

Nice to know another recovering cutter there. There is very few awareness about self-harm and suicide due to the taboo about it. The word, "taboo" comes from the word being both "Menstruation" and the "Curse". Even in the bible, it talks about ways of self harm that we don't even think about like Tattoos since your body is not supposed to be the temple to the devil in ancient Judaic times due to the pagans putting tattoos on their bodies or even Alcohol. If you talk to the bible theologian they will say that drugs are technically self harm to the temple and that if you're cremated, God is not going to accept you into Heaven. Of course, any theologian is not as suitably suited to the work of saving people from the ravages of the mental crisis like the doctor world unless they work with one or are one.

So technically self harm is as varied as even hitting yourself with the book if you do that to kill yourself or hurt yourself.

[jillbean]

I agree with you about how varied it can be although i dissagree about trying to kill yourself being classed as self harm

Favazza (1998) states, quite definitively, that
. . . self-mutilation is distinct from suicide. Major reviews have upheld this distinction. . . A basic understanding is that a person who truly attempts suicide seeks to end all feelings whereas a person who self-mutilates seeks to feel better.

Favazza also catogrised self harm into pathological (cutting, burning etc) and cultural (tattoos and body modification)

On the whole i think it depends what sort of self harm you are talking about - self harm led to from depresion - the topic of this thread

Or the more general sense of the term self harm which would include anything you do on purpose which ultimatly leads to damage of your body. Be it the afore mentioned definition of self harm, or smoking, tattoos etc.

[supersimoholic]

I had plenty of friends who self-harmed, and i mean one of them WAS just doing it for attention (she'd cut all her arms up then come in the next day and show EVERYONE!!! even people she didn't know that well...) and another girl just did it to fit in (she'd have like, cat scratches on her arm and ACT like she was really depressed :/)

but alot of people i know had real reasons, like one of my friends - her step dad was always calling her fat, ugly, worthless & stupid, and if she spoke back he'd hit her, and he mum never did anything about it.
and myself, my mum was on drugs and i live with my nan who had a really short temper, and i'd started to develop one too, and it didn't hepl that my sister had developed a habbit of swearing at me for no reason, so i'd snap, go crazy, then cry a ton. the only way to calm down was to self harm, or if i'd do it befor the snap, then i'd be fine. and it wasn't like, everyday, casue if i got stressed, just looking at the cut would calm me down, and the bigger/redder/deeper it was, the more it would work (sounds abit weird i know)

but because the girl who was showing her's off to every tom, dick and harry was a friend of mine and my sister saw her doind it, and i was always waring wristbands, she got mum to make me pull it up, i'd just done a fresh one so it looked realy bad and everone got really upset and they just kept checking my arm every few days :/

Becasue i had no relese (i don't smoke and i never drink) i got really depressed and was upset alot, but then again, i guess it was the bes thing for me cause it forced me to stop, and i've only done it afew times since then, and the last time i think was about 2 years ago.

and as for smoking and drinking i think it should all be banned. the world would be a better place without any of it.

[jillbean]

Im sorry about that, but im glad your geting better.

Abit off topic from the original post but still holds some relevence.

and as for smoking and drinking i think it should all be banned. the world would be a better place without any of it.

Have you heard of prohibition. It was an amazing failure. It banned alcohol in America. Many gangs poped up making transporting and selling bootleg drink. The cost of policeing it was to much and so many states just turned a blind eye. It also resulted in a loss of taxes for the goverment (from the sale of alcohol) and many buisnesses such as breweries went out of buisness.

The answer is not always to just force people to stop things.

[Phoeberg]

I'm glad so many of you seem to agree with me that my friend was completely out of order, although I have a feeling we're not friends anymore since we renewed the argument the next day and it ended quite badly.

Jillbean, it was interesting to hear about the bill of rights with regards to self harm. I know several people who have faced very hostile treatment when seeking medical attention for self injuries, including doctors actually refusing to give them pain killers when giving them stitches because they obviously like pain. I was pretty sickened when I heard that.

And I completely agree with you about it still being a taboo. I actually started self harming at 13 too (naturally my friend didn't know this when we had the argument), and my year head also found out. She pulled me out of French class and took my to the principal, refusing to tell me why we were going. She left me sitting outside the principal's office for almost an hour, and I was crying hysterically but the one teacher who stopped to ask if I was okay was told to leave me alone by her. She also called my parents and all hell broke loose their. Fortunately the principal was far more understanding but the year head had already done her damage by the time I saw the principal. I was utterly horrified at having anyone know, and I convinced my parents that I'd only done it as a dare because they were furious. Even now, 6 and a half years later, I will do anything to hide the scars on my arm from everyone, even though on the whole I don't cut anymore. I have three friends who know, and I only told them because I was certain they wouldn't judge me for it either because they had cut themselves or had said something to convince me they would not judge me for it. Plus I never really see 2 of them because of where we live so I know I don't have to face them and have them know.

I can't believe I just said on the internet that I used to cut considering the entire world can see this, but I don't even tell my friends or boyfriends in real life, but seeing as everyone else has had the courage to admit it and I actually started this debate, I will say it.

[jillbean]

I felt the same way, as this is not a forum just for this kind of thing. But i thought nobody actually knows me, so lets be honest. That thing about the doctor is terrible. It seams like the people who need the training the most dont actually have it. How can we expect people like your friend to be open minded and compasionate when doctors, nurses an teachers arnt.

I dont think these people think about how much harm they are actually doing. Because of many situations involving doctors and nurses such as i mentioned before (it was a nurse who told me that by the way) i now have a fear of doctors and even if somthing is really wrong i wont go to one. Because i dont trust them.

My parents know (because of my school), most of my friends,and everyone i went to school with knows (because of my school) my boyfriend knows. Hes very understanding. But i told a preivous boyfriend (only because i have very visible scars which im unable to hide in the summer) and he just started laughing at me. Goes with out saying that didnt last long. There are very few people that i have actually decided to tell (stupid school)

[WayBack]

Sure, there are those who do it just to get attention, but these are not real self-harmers. The real ones usually do everything in their power to hide it. Well, at least I made sure nobody would see it. I never did anything that would cause a permanent damage, I had to be creative...

For me it was a way to avoid committing a suicide, a true life-saver. What many people don't understand is that physical pain can be a great way to numb the pain you feel inside. Physical pain is easy, uncomplicated, it clears your mind and gives you a moment of inner peace. It allows you to take a deep breath and just ... exist, like an animal, not a tortured human soul, at least for a few seconds.

I don't do it anymore but I feel no regret for my past.

[lilmissmanderson]

wow, your friend sounds a little uneducated to be making statements like that!

I dont think alcohol and smokin can be classed as self harm (unless, as longears said, it progresses into a serious addiction), hedonistic yes, but self harm, nope.

In the case of actual bodily harm, I think every case need to be treated individually.

When I was in High school, there was a phase of people scratching their selves until a really ugly, massive (oh, i'm cringing), pussy, weepy scabby thing came up. It was called chicken burns and was ''cool'' (and no, i so didnt!) And after the awarness campaign on self harmin happened here, there was alot a phase of the ''cool'' kids doing this, proudly displaying their scratches, so I agree, there are some idiots who think it's a great way to get attention.

BUT, when I was at uni, i was out wi a lass I adored and she went missing for ages when we were out one day. I finally tracked her down to the tiolets where i found she'd smashed a glass and cut her arm so deep i though i was goni have to drag her to hospital. She was mortified that i had ''caught'' her (i had to keek over the cubical to make sure she really was ok) and begged me not to tell anyone and promised to get help, etc. She (finally) got councilling and antidepressents and she's doing great now but when we had a really long chat about it, she pretty much said what Oprah said.

I think these ''cool'' kids have made it appear to the general public that it is just a phase and not a big problem, when it is serious and needs to be treated as such.

[soylentfiend]

I was a 2 year SI, I only stopped after my 3d time in the Psych ward and Septic Shock, which I nearly died because of a severely infected cutting wound. My mother believes like your friend, it's only for attention, I beg to differ. The only reason why I don't wear long sleeves all the time because I've lost my shame, and I'm not going to let my past ruin my happiness, feeling guilt for my SI or stop enjoying the things that I couldn't do in long-sleeves. SI and depression are real issues, your heart can be ill, why not your brain?

[SirVictory]

Your friend is right- people take up smoking to look cool, which is a way to get attention, and drinking makes you sociable, which translates into more attention.

Wrist-cutting is for lusers, but all they want is attention and maybe get onto an episod of Dr.Phil.

[Xunixeon]

Your friend is right- people take up smoking to look cool, which is a way to get attention, and drinking makes you sociable, which translates into more attention.

Wrist-cutting is for lusers, but all they want is attention and maybe get onto an episod of Dr.Phil.

How do you like it if you cut your wrist and you're suicidal and all I do is call you a idiot for it?

Wrist cutting is different than attention getting. I'll make sure you get banned if you don't shape up.

[longears15]

Wrist-cutting is for lusers, but all they want is attention and maybe get onto an episod of Dr.Phil. Do you have any idea how offensive your comment is? You've obviously never suffered from depression or known anyone who has, or never in a million years would you make such such a statement.

[Splurgy]

Your friend is right- people take up smoking to look cool, which is a way to get attention, and drinking makes you sociable, which translates into more attention.

Wrist-cutting is for lusers, but all they want is attention and maybe get onto an episod of Dr.Phil.
While attention seeking behaviour can lead to wrist cutting, it's not really the same idea as self harm. Wrist cutting for attention is just that - for attention. We're discussing people who self harm for other reasons, such as people who are insecure and dislike themselves, or those who suffer from depression and are seeking for an outlet of negative emotion.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

We also argued over the right of a self-harmer to be treated for self inflicted wounds. Should someone have the right to take up hopsital time for something they caused themselves when the time and skill of doctors could be used to treat "genuinely" (I am in no way saying that people with mental health issues are not ill, hence the quotation marks) sick people? Does this make self harmers selfish because in a way they have a choice?

i agree that not everyone who has harmed themselves [ be it smoking, drinking, or cutting ] has done so for attention.granted there ARE some who do it for attention, but there are others still who do not.
during a 2 year depression, i was one of those people. i would cut, burn, and overdose on pills. but it was NOT to get attention... in fact, i was so obsessed with keeping it secret that nobody found out until i recovered myself. but the reason i even did those things were out of self loathing... basically, beating myself up. *scratches head*
however, some people do not have the intent of beating themselves to death. sometimes, they cut a little too deep or pass out a little too long. should they be denied assistance when they ask for it?
my answer is no. no, those people should not be denied help if they seek it.
even those people who seek attention by it shouldnt be denied if theyre ready to harm themselves to the extent it would take to require a hospital visit.
i wouldnt say that people who mutilate themselves are selfish. theyre just, not comfortable inside their own skin. they dont like themselves; does that mean they have to run around pretending to be OK like everyone else?
my answer would be no, yet again.
and even people like me, who have made a full recovery, without pills or hospitals or anything, will still feel at odds with themselves deep down, mostly because there are things that we cannot change, regardless of money, status, or physical/mental abilities.

ive noticed that a lot of that purely judgmental talk comes from inexperience. and im not saying that theyre STUPID or MEAN or anything, just...ignorant. innocent, in a way. theyve never felt it or done it themselves, so they wouldnt know the reasons behind doing it.

ah and on a more practical note, my father took up smoking because he liked how it made him feel more relaxed. and later on he couldnt quit.
it had nothing at all to do with looking cool or feeling cool, or getting attention. in fact im sure he wouldve never taken it up if he'd known how much his family wouldve disdained him for it in his future.

one of the ways you can tell an attention seeker from a truly intent self mutilator is by the direction of the cut, if they choose the wrist. most self mutilators are very well informed and know exactly what theyre doing when they injure themselves. an attention seeker may just slit their wrists from one end to the other. a self mutilator, or someone intent on destroying themselves, would know to cut along the vein, vertically.

ah and also another interesting tidbit is that ive heard that some self mutilators cut themselves as a stress relief. something about watching blood is soothing, to them...so it can be easy to imagine why that might get out of hand and they might accidentally bleed to death or something.

[ i forgot the piece on drinking. xD OH YES THERES MORE.
so for drinking, my father did that too. but he said it was because it relieved his pain... im talking about arthritis. and it didnt make him more sociable, when he drank, it just made him really sleepy.
you see, alcohol effects people differently. there are angry alcoholics, there are sleepy alcoholics, happy alcoholics, lusty alcoholics... so trying to say that they all want to achieve ONE result, is foolish.
alcohol is said to amplify what you feel most strongly, or what you attempt to repress. therefore if you feel like shit when you drink, youre not going to turn into Mr Happy Fun Times. or at least, thats what ive heard...im not a drinker, myself.
ive also heard that some people drink to escape reality. likewise with doing drugs. ]

[jillbean]

one of the ways you can tell an attention seeker from a truly intent self mutilator is by the direction of the cut, if they choose the wrist. most self mutilators are very well informed and know exactly what theyre doing when they injure themselves. an attention seeker may just slit their wrists from one end to the other. a self mutilator, or someone intent on destroying themselves, would know to cut along the vein, vertically.

Although i agree with you on your other points i have to dissagree with you on that one. To classify some one just because of the direction of the cut could be harmful to a true self harmer.

I will use myself as an example. When i first started self harming there was not nearly as much awarness as there is now. Also there were very few places online or otherwise to talk to people who also self harmed. And if there were i was far to young to even think of going out and looking for them. As a result i was not "well informed" and cut sideways not vertically. This did not make me an attention seeker. It was just how a felt more comftable doing it.

Although there are attention seekers out there i dont think we should close anyone out just because of what we suspect. Would you rather have wasted some time helping someone who really didnt need it or cut someone off from help.

[Raindrops757]

I completely disagree with anyone who thinks that self-harming is only for attention. People who self-harm might not neccessarily have mental health problems but they do it for a reason. Even if someone only does it once or shows their wounds to others, it should be taken very seriously. My older brother used to self-harm as a teenager and it was only found out after a long time. Up until a few months ago, he carried on self-harming and although he didn't show his scars to anyone, he didn't cover them up either. I don't believe that elements such as the direction in which you cut yourself and whether or not you hide your scars mark the difference between true self-harming and attention-seeking. In my eyes anyone who self-harms is not doing it for attention.

[longears15]

one of the ways you can tell an attention seeker from a truly intent self mutilator is by the direction of the cut, if they choose the wrist. most self mutilators are very well informed and know exactly what theyre doing when they injure themselves. an attention seeker may just slit their wrists from one end to the other. a self mutilator, or someone intent on destroying themselves, would know to cut along the vein, vertically. I too would strongly disagree with this. Paradoxically, one of the reasons I used to cut was as a form of very temporary pain relief. As I said in my other post, I have very severe chronic pain and I used to use cutting as a means of distraction from that, not as a suicide attempt. My scars run in all different directions, but they certainly weren't attention seeking in any way, shape or form.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

*shrug* our experiences differ. i respect that.

[kustirider2]

Wrist-cutting is for lusers, but all they want is attention and maybe get onto an episod of Dr.Phil.

I cannot believe you just said this. I went through a terrible bout of self-harm, which I am still not recovered from, I still sometimes feel like I want to cut myself again. I have suffered from Depression for well over a year.
Anyone who self-harmed is NOT a loser, You cannot label people for this! You basically have no control and when you are so upset you just grab the thing closest to you and do it.

[KyoichiYotobari]

I think a lot of people think of self harming (especially wrist cutting) as some kind of trend, because in the last 5 or so years it has become kind of like a trademark for emo music and lifestyle, right? And it's "fashionable" to be depressed, and therefore you have to cut yourself.
I mean come on, they even sell necklaces and stuff with bejeweled razorblades.

I'm not saying everyone cut themselves to be "in" or whatever, but I do think it has become somewhat trendy, which is sad, for the ones who really needs the help doesn't get enough attention.
I also can't help but feeling kind of annoyed about all this talk about cutting, it IS a problem of course, but if you go to a psychologist (sorry if that's the wrong word, heh) and tell him you have problems, but that you DON'T cut yourself - you automatically get put down on the list and you're not in need of acute help.
I've had some pretty serious problems with depressions, anxiety/panic attacks and psychoses but I've never cut myself and apparently they don't think I need much help.

[jillbean]

I think its just theres a chance you will seriously hurt yourself or acidently kill yourself. Just as if you were suicidal then you would be thurther up their list. But then again there still isnt enough out there to help anyone wether they self harm or not. And i think its the people that need the help the most that find it hardest to ask for it.

Also yeh it is becoming fashionable. Which is sick really. But i still think those people who do it for attention or "fashion" still have a problem. There has to be somthing wrong, even if your not doing it because of depresion.

kustirider2 - Just ignore him, hes only said it to come in here and stir it up.

[Elvie]

I've come through some serous problems I've still not recovered compltely from, but sth. has always stopped me from self-harming. The worst selfharm I ever did was scratching my face and hands, when I was angry with myself for crying on public (I act strong and tough even if I feel ruined inside, Internet being the only place where I actually discuss my problems and feelings, because no-one sees me or knows me here). Once I even took a knife to cut myself, but then I thought - what would it change? It would only add to the pain and distruction I already feel, and make me ugly (and I'm always aware of my looks, no matter what happens).

However, I never judge those who do harm themselves, be it alcohol, drugs, cutting or other severe methods of harming. Even if these people are just plain attention seekers, would they attract attention to themselves in such a way, if they had no serious problems? No, they would probably do sth else to be noticed, than beating, scratching or cutting themselves and showing their scars. They might be in a serious trouble, even if they don't seem to be, at first sight. Probably, doing such things brings them sorta relief, but, in case some of you do it, just don't let it develop into a habit. Anyone can do it when in severe distress, but we all are able to put ourselves together after a moment of weakness (though sometimes it's hard, I know from my own experience).

You know, when I was down depresed, I decided to make a new rule for myself to live by, no matter if the others like it or not: "Love yourself and do best for yourself, and the world will fall in love with you too; if there are sb. who hate you, be sure they do it because of envy". This works much better than harming yourself physically or emotionally.

[SnowWhiteCharming]

I do. I judge people who do self-harm. I'm sick of all the whine ass little bitches. When you have to deal with a pathetic parent as I have your whole life you're understand why I'm sick of all the bullshit. For god's sake, my life is truly unbearable at times. And what pisses me off so badly is that the reason my life is in such a pathetic disarray is because of my mother and all her self pitying. My mother graduated college with as BA in sociology and english...she had all the honors and ribbons and everything. Top of her class. But do you think she used that to her advantage? Sure, she can study a book and pass a test, but she can't even clean her own house. 8 months after she graduated college she STILL had no job, and yuet she had 4 children at home to take care of--we didn't live with our father. So my older sister (by two years) got a babysitting job. She gave all her money to my mom. My sister was 12 years old and supporting the family but here was my mother, college education, full grown woman...and not doing a damn thing. She even wrote into our school "dear teacher, I cannot supply my children with the necessary items you've requested because I've been graduated for 8 months and still don't have a job and have been living off of my 12 year old daughter's baby sitting money." That's just SICK. She played on it, even! As if she were proud! "here, let me tell the whole world about how I'm not even human!" We had to stand in line at the food pantry and get bagged rice and beans in a coffee can. We had to pick through the garbage in public places to get cans and bottles for my mother to return so we could have bread. I got called a garbage picker until I graduated from high school. Kids on the bus would tell me I smelled bad, because they saw me picking through the trash to get bottles, and they sprayed me with some cheap perfume and stick gum in my hair. And then when my mother finally did get a job, she ended up getting canned because she's entirely incompetent and then decided that her children, even after putting them through all this hell to support her ass, weren't good enough and reason enough to keep on going. So she tried to kill herself. She was in the hospital 70 miles away from home and we, my and my younger sister, had to stay with my father and grandmother, while my older sister had to stay home, work, and pay my mother's bills. My grandmother was nuts and was always looking for a way to bring me down. One time I wanted to go with my dad to the store and my grandmother told I couldn't and that if I walked out the door then I was a worthless tramp and not welcomed there anymore. In the meantime, my brother is highly messed up and was 120 miles away from home in a children's home because of crazy outbursts and chasing people with knives and whatnot. And my dad ended up getting custody of my brother and my mom freaked out about it, even though she didn't care before she tried to kill herself. I was wish my dad when we went to the hospital with the papers for my mother to sign. I saw a paperclip on the floor and lined cuts on her wrists. When my dad showed her the papers she screamed and locked herself in the bathroom and refused to see us. We drove an hour and a half to see her and we hadn't seen her in a while and she wouldn't see us.

I don't feel bad for people who victimize themselves, I'm disgusted by them. My mother has had every opportunity in the world to better herself and she's refused because she's addicted to misery and loves people babying her. When I was graduating from college she convinced me to go to the ceremony, because I didn't really want to myself. And the night she was supposed to come to see me graduate she ended up in the hospital again, for attemptive suicide. And lucky me...I met someone that night that knew my mother and asked me where she was. Obviously I couldn't tell the woman, but I shamefully said she couldn't make it. My mother was in and out of the hospital since then, which was May of '07, until she was recently released for the last time (to date anyway) at middle of this year. She's being pathetic again so I'm guessing she's about due to go back in. I'm sick of all her bullshit and complaining. She doesn't realize that people have it a lot worse off than she does...people such as her own children. That's why I don't give a shit about pathetic people complaining about their "pathetic" lives and actually daring to think they have it sooo bad that they NEED to have a release. I mean, come on. Get over yourself. I don't care HOW bad you've got it...there is ALWAYS someone out there who's had it a lot worse off than you have. And that should be reason enough to quit your whine baby crying, suck it up, and preserver. LIFE is a gift. You should cherish it. You can always make your life better and you can always make it worse. be grateful of the things you've got and for god's sake be grateful for things you HAVEN'T got as well.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

I do. I judge people who do self-harm. I'm sick of all the whine ass little bitches.

I don't feel bad for people who victimize themselves, I'm disgusted by them.

obviously, although you are very jaded, and yes your story is a sad one, you have not stared death in the face. you have not faced your own mortality or thought about the consequences of cutting too deep.

it takes guts to hurt yourself knowing it might be the last time.
for many people, it is, and people like you who believe its just for attention, or because someone has a minor case of the poor me's, are only baring their ignorance for the world to see.

but id like to see how well you enjoy being told that your life was easy street, compared to someone elses. its not a fucking contest as to who has it worse. you dont win a prize because your family was messed up, girlie, PLENTY of others have been down that road themselves. just because they choose not to parade it around at the slightest indignation doesnt mean it didnt happen. doesnt mean it doesnt still happen.

im kind of sick of people acting like MY WOES ARE WORSE SO YOURS ARE NOTHING. why? because of COURSE your woes are worse--YOURE the one experiencing them! taking a turn in someone elses shoes is just too much fucking trouble so of course YOU win the miss misery pageant.

[SnowWhiteCharming]

My whole point was that someone always has it worse...I wasn't claiming my life was the worse ever. So I don't know where you got that from. I KNOW people who've had it worse. And the reason I can be so sure that the people who feel the need to destroy their lives, as well as the ones around them, are immature and extremely selfish is because I've been there, myself. Okay, so I understand the DESIRE to just "end it all," but what I can't and won't accept is that act of doing so. There are so many people who get hurt in the process of hurting yourself it's just too much to bring down with you.

I'm not having a competition, god damn. I'm saying that other people have it worse than I do. Yes, my life wasn't roses...but there are PLENTY of people who've had it worse. The ones who were raped or repeated beaten as children or never lived under a warm roof. w/e else. Maybe explaining my story wasn't the right way to go about it, but I was actually trying to do the opposite of how you interpreted it. I agree with you...people have it worse than me, and worse than them and so on and so forth. I know everyone takes their problems differently and being that they're THEIR problems, of course it's going to be difficult for them to burden. I'm just saying...don't hurt yourself because you hurt. It doesn't make sense.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

My whole point was that someone always has it worse...I wasn't claiming my life was the worse ever. So I don't know where you got that from.

here, then, i'll help you to see where i got it from.

For god's sake, my life is truly unbearable at times. And what pisses me off so badly is that the reason my life is in such a pathetic disarray is because of my mother and all her self pitying.

you couldve left it there, but decided to include your lifes story, which i'll admit, was tl;dr. if youre going to bitch about "whiny ass" self pitiers, i advise you NOT to do the same as them...which would be, yes, you guessed it: letting go of waaaaaaay too much information in an effort to get others to understand EXACTLY how bad they have it, just to prove that yes, your life is indeed suckier than what you hear other people complaining about.
we get it.



And the reason I can be so sure that the people who feel the need to destroy their lives, as well as the ones around them, are immature and extremely selfish is because I've been there, myself. Okay, so I understand the DESIRE to just "end it all," but what I can't and won't accept is that act of doing so. There are so many people who get hurt in the process of hurting yourself it's just too much to bring down with you.

okay, so youve been there, and apparently your mother has too.
are you and your mother carbon copies of everyone else in the world? am i missing something here? must everyone think and act as you do?

and how is it NOT selfish to declare that people who wish to end their own misery aught to think of others first? because those people will be forever scarred because one person chose to off themselves? get real. theyll learn to cope without them or theyll join them. maybe they should take a page from your Get Tough Or Die book.

and as far as immaturity goes? puhlease.
children who are hurt want others to know. ADULTS are the only people youll see wandering around yelling SHUT UP AND GET OVER IT at others their age about their woes. who is truly immature, in that situation? the one who cant bear to get down and try to understand others, or the one who goes about expressing their pain?

I'm not having a competition, god damn.

couldve fooled me.


I'm saying that other people have it worse than I do. Yes, my life wasn't roses..

yes, i see that.

....but there are PLENTY of people who've had it worse. The ones who were raped or repeated beaten as children or never lived under a warm roof. w/e else. Maybe explaining my story wasn't the right way to go about it, but I was actually trying to do the opposite of how you interpreted it.

well, pretend that you arent you for a second and read what you read as if you were someone else. you may realize that perhaps a re-wording is in order.


I agree with you...people have it worse than me, and worse than them and so on and so forth. I know everyone takes their problems differently and being that they're THEIR problems, of course it's going to be difficult for them to burden. I'm just saying...don't hurt yourself because you hurt. It doesn't make sense.

i think it makes perfect sense.
if youre hurt on the outside theres no question as to whether youre hurt on the inside. its those people who bottle it up and dont say a word, then end up hanging themselves in their bedroom without warning [ because others told them that they could not express their woes, cough hint cough ] that really concern me.

[SnowWhiteCharming]

A re-wording probably IS in order, but it's too late for that now. Okay, I'm immature, I'll accept that. After all, it was my immaturity that pushed me to make that "rant" post in the first place. I got mad and lashed out. True, I shouldn't have worded it the way I did. Yes, I could have done without going in depth. But going in depth is what everyone in here is doing...they're all talking about their personal experiences with self-harm...and that's not something most people talk about in general. So saying anything on the matter is automatically more detail than the norm.

if youre hurt on the outside theres no question as to whether youre hurt on the inside. its those people who bottle it up and dont say a word, then end up hanging themselves in their bedroom without warning [ because others told them that they could not express their woes, cough hint cough ] that really concern me.


Okay, firstly - You can't claim it is ever someone else's fault for someone committing suicide. Ultimately it was up to that individual, no matter what someone else told them. So saying someone could make someone else kill themselves is just plain mean and invalid. I know I didn't make my boyfriend kill himself, though he said he would if I broke up with him. And even though I refused to meet my friend's friend when he said I was his "last hope," that doesn't make me his murderer. Okay, people should be more sensitive...in certain situations. With the case with my mother she's been babied way too much and so people really shouldn't cater to her. But in the case of someone who is going through some serious stuff and just needs someone to listen; completely understandable. So yes, it is a by basis order of which to proceed. I should not have generalized. As I said before, I was immaturely lashing out. Either way, though, it's not the responsibility of another person to stop you* from killing yourself.*

Second - This quote sounds like you support people discussing their lives with others and expressing their "woes," but a minute ago you said I divulged too much information and no one needs to hear it. So I'm just conflicted on what your opinion truly is on the matter.

*used as a general term describing oneself

[SuicidiaParasidia]

A re-wording probably IS in order, but it's too late for that now. Okay, I'm immature, I'll accept that. After all, it was my immaturity that pushed me to make that "rant" post in the first place. I got mad and lashed out. True, I shouldn't have worded it the way I did. Yes, I could have done without going in depth. But going in depth is what everyone in here is doing...they're all talking about their personal experiences with self-harm...and that's not something most people talk about in general. So saying anything on the matter is automatically more detail than the norm.

thats not what im getting at, and i think you know it.
from where im standing, theres a BIG difference between your "depth" and everyone elses "depth", so correct me if im wrong when i say...that was probably too deep for comfort.
and i know you get it so i wont repeat myself.


Okay, firstly - You can't claim it is ever someone else's fault for someone committing suicide.

where did i?
it isnt anyones fault. HOWEVER, i will not turn a blind eye to FACTORS that CONTRIBUTE to suicide. people dont usually just up and decide to kill themselves for fun, yknow? they usually have a helping hand, if not a literal one, then a more subliminal one.


Ultimately it was up to that individual, no matter what someone else told them.

yes.

So saying someone could make someone else kill themselves is just plain mean and invalid.

again, where did i say that?

I know I didn't make my boyfriend kill himself, though he said he would if I broke up with him. And even though I refused to meet my friend's friend when he said I was his "last hope," that doesn't make me his murderer.

didnt say it did. never would. but i WOULD say that it sure as fuck influenced his actions a tiny bit, because he chose to determine his actions upon yours. that still doesnt make you responsible and im not here to say you are, but like i said--contributing factors will not go unacknowledged.

Okay, people should be more sensitive...in certain situations. With the case with my mother she's been babied way too much and so people really shouldn't cater to her. But in the case of someone who is going through some serious stuff and just needs someone to listen; completely understandable.

depends on what you deem "serious stuff" then, wouldnt it?


So yes, it is a by basis order of which to proceed. I should not have generalized. As I said before, I was immaturely lashing out. Either way, though, it's not the responsibility of another person to stop you* from killing yourself.*

*used as a general term describing oneself

i agree with this also...but it couldnt hurt to have a helping hand, yeah?


Second - This quote sounds like you support people discussing their lives with others and expressing their "woes," but a minute ago you said I divulged too much information and no one needs to hear it. So I'm just conflicted on what your opinion truly is on the matter.

hmmmm no, theres a difference between supporting the discussions of succinct life scenarios [ which i feel was the general extent of everyones share time thus far ] and pouring ones life story into the post. if that were the name of the game my post would probably take up two pages. xD or maybe im just a drama queen.

my opinion truly is that people who self harm should be left alone, or given attention, based on what their needs require. there can be no mass judgments. its like health, really; everybodys body is different, but in key ways is the same. there are certain things we can all agree on, but others that are too convoluted to specifically categorize.
like, to me, that would be what makes one persons woes more valid than someone elses. and no thats not just naming you--ive seen plenty of people do it. in fact its one of my biggest pet peeves where i might deliberately say something vague about a crappy day i had, then 10 people [ or whoever im talking to at the moment ] decides that its an invitation to play Who's Least Valid To Whine. i dont think it works like that.
since we're all different people, we're going to be effected by different things.
dont get me wrong, i totally admire your strength of will to remain undefeated by strife. thats something i encourage in others. but part of life is accepting that not everyone is wired that way, or will come to realize and accept that they have that sort of power in their lives.

irritating as hell, too, i know. but to them, being powerless is a reality. its not a question.
i guess thats why i get annoyed when i hear people ranting so heavily about people who cant just suck it up and forage on like they can.

[clockworkapple]

Alright. I've tried cutting, but decided to use other means of self harm. Currently I'm not doing anything, though. I have mental disorders, an ED, have been physically/verbally/sexually abused, parents that abuse substances, and more shit but I feel like I already have tried to make my shit a sob-story... I don't think my life is bad, actually.

I completely disagree with the whole "LYKE SUICIDE IS BAD U GUYZZZ" side of the topic, as controversial as it seems. Nobody chooses to be born, to be alive. To try force and someone to stay with that... it seems extremely oppressive. Some people genuinely do not like living. If anything, I think the selfishness comes from the other people in that situation. Forcing someone to continue something they abhor for their own happiness? WTF....

[Vanito]

There seem to be two kinds of cutters:

- truly messed up people
- fashionable attention whores

Both kinds need help. Type one has to cut for another reason than attention, because they do not ask for attention with it. They all describe it kills emotional pain, proably in a comparable way it does to annorexics bullimics. I know an ex-annorecix girl, was not an attention whore at all, it took long to find out she was annorexic at all, she didn't tell till she had therapy and was on her way to a cure.

Category two should be sent to Dr Phil. That will cure their attention need for a while.

[negneg189]

I've tried cutting once or twice, but it wasn't because I had a reason. I'd heard about people doing it and wanted to see what it was like. I've never been depressed or suicidal... don't even have any big issues in my life. So everything I've ever known about cutting I get from those around me.

My two best friends cut. One tried it to be 'badass', as she put it. She is bipolar, and started screwing up her life because she wanted the older kids in her support group to think she was 'as cool as them'. She's... interesting. Luckily, she realized that screwing up her life more wasn't helping anything, and is now recovering.

I also just found out that my other best friend cuts. Not very often, and not very deep. But I'm still worried about her. She told me she rarely does it, and that she would fix it because she didn't realize how much it affected me because of my other friend.

Should I trust her?
All those who have self harmed/do self harm... what should I do?

[WayBack]

I also just found out that my other best friend cuts. Not very often, and not very deep. But I'm still worried about her. She told me she rarely does it, and that she would fix it because she didn't realize how much it affected me because of my other friend.

Should I trust her?
All those who have self harmed/do self harm... what should I do?

What she told you, "I rarely do it and I will fix it", sounds like a typical answer I would give to anyone who would discover my secret. It's a form of defense, a way to make the problem look unimportant, you just shrug it off like "sheesh, I don't really know why I do it, I guess I was just stupid, I never meant it seriously, I'll stop it, righ now, really..." That's not any real promise, it's just an excuse, a way to quickly stop discussing the unpleasant matter.

What should you do? Each person is individual, what works for one is useless for another. A psychologist may help but only if the client is willing to cooperate. Here I am talking from my own experience. I was sent to a psychologist (for different reason than depression) and we had a nice chat. As a result, he told me that I was a pleasant young lady and he even complimented my level of maturity and my sense of humor...while inside, I suffered from depression, nightmares and had suicidal tendencies. He didn't discover anything of that because I played my part perfectly, so the only real result of the meeting was that I was really proud of myself because I had managed to "look normal".

Honestly, it's nice that you want to help her but it's her battle to win. Be supportive and be a good friend, if she wants to talk about it, then listen, but don't push her into something or she might close her heart. I can't give you any universal answer, it doesn't exist, but I can tell you what worked for me - a distraction.

Many reasons for depression are based on those moments when you spend too much time thinking about yourself, your life, your past and your future. What works the best in that case is to distract yourself with some kind of hobby that occupies your mind and doesn't let any place left for dangerous thoughts. If she has any hobby, be it any kind of sport, playing games, gardening or collecting books, support her, join "her club" if you want or try to help her find something she might enjoy, it will help your friendship as a bonus. Good luck!

[jooxis]

I cannot believe you just said this. I went through a terrible bout of self-harm, which I am still not recovered from, I still sometimes feel like I want to cut myself again. I have suffered from Depression for well over a year.
Anyone who self-harmed is NOT a loser, You cannot label people for this! You basically have no control and when you are so upset you just grab the thing closest to you and do it.

Or not. How come I don't know anyone in my entire country that ever self harms - nor has anyone here that I talked to ever even heard of this "phenomenom"? And yet, you could say I know a lot of seriously depressed and screwed up people since I live in a country torn by wars where people eat garbage and can't afford a normal lifestyle.
When I go to the USA or the UK however, I see dozens of these self-harmed teens. And they're usually spoiled teenage brats. And I can only imagine their problems- their parents don't understand them and they've been dumped, etc... boo-hoo. In parts of the world where people deal with REAL problems like severe poverty and starvation you won't see this behavior.
What I said is probably offensive but I'm not trying to attack anyone personally, this is just how I see this whole thing.

[kustirider2]

Or not. How come I don't know anyone in my entire country that ever self harms - nor has anyone here that I talked to ever even heard of this "phenomenom"? And yet, you could say I know a lot of seriously depressed and screwed up people since I live in a country torn by wars where people eat garbage and can't afford a normal lifestyle.
When I go to the USA or the UK however, I see dozens of these self-harmed teens. And they're usually spoiled teenage brats. And I can only imagine their problems- their parents don't understand them and they've been dumped, etc... boo-hoo. In parts of the world where people deal with REAL problems like severe poverty and starvation you won't see this behavior.
What I said is probably offensive but I'm not trying to attack anyone personally, this is just how I see this whole thing.

I completely understand you. I know a hell of a lot of people have it worse than me but I coudn't cope anymore. I got so angry and fustrated that I did it without even realising until it was too late. I was diagnosed with a couple mental health ilnesses which apparently contributed towards it. I'm also not one of those people who self harmed due to relationship issues or parent issues, I had a lot of problems in life, Which I (am) slowly recoving from

[Phoeberg]

Or not. How come I don't know anyone in my entire country that ever self harms - nor has anyone here that I talked to ever even heard of this "phenomenom"? And yet, you could say I know a lot of seriously depressed and screwed up people since I live in a country torn by wars where people eat garbage and can't afford a normal lifestyle.

Well clearly you've heard of it to have such a strong opinion on it. And you do realize that there are people living in poverty in America and the UK, don't you? There are families who can't afford to buy their children beds and more than one meal a day. They wouldn't even be able to afford to house their children if it weren't for the government providing housing for them in some situations.


When I go to the USA or the UK however, I see dozens of these self-harmed teens. And they're usually spoiled teenage brats. And I can only imagine their problems- their parents don't understand them and they've been dumped, etc... boo-hoo. In parts of the world where people deal with REAL problems like severe poverty and starvation you won't see this behavior.

While I couldn't find statistics for your country, it might interest you to know that most of the surrounding countries (such as Bulgaria and Romania) actually have higher suicide rates than the UK. And how do you know self-harm is not an issue in countries suffering from poverty and starvation? They don't gather statistics in those countries, and they don't focus on mental health because they have larger health issues to worry about. And in regards to self-harmers being spoilt...everyone I have known who has genuinely self-harmed has not done so because of their parents or relationship problems, nor have they been spoilt.

I'm not trying to be offensive either, I'm just offering some counter arguments to you.

[jooxis]

I completely understand you. I know a hell of a lot of people have it worse than me but I coudn't cope anymore. I got so angry and fustrated that I did it without even realising until it was too late. I was diagnosed with a couple mental health ilnesses which apparently contributed towards it. I'm also not one of those people who self harmed due to relationship issues or parent issues, I had a lot of problems in life, Which I (am) slowly recoving from

I can definitely relate to the relationship issues and life usually does suck so it's good to learn to think positive and make the best out of the crappy situations life throws you into. I hope you fully recover and can lead a happy life as soon as possible.


Well clearly you've heard of it to have such a strong opinion on it.

Yes, although I've lived abroad in the US for many years.

And you do realize that there are people living in poverty in America and the UK, don't you? There are families who can't afford to buy their children beds and more than one meal a day. They wouldn't even be able to afford to house their children if it weren't for the government providing housing for them in some situations.

Yes, I'm aware of this but I don't see how it contradicts anything I've said. Besides, you can't deny that America is not generally considered an impoverished nation and that an average American lives better than an average Somali or Aghanistani. But anyway, I was referring to those Western suburban/urban teens who feel miserable but don't have, according to me, justified reasons for it. Of course I'm not talking about everyone in the Western hemisphere.


While I couldn't find statistics for your country, it might interest you to know that most of the surrounding countries (such as Bulgaria and Romania) actually have higher suicide rates than the UK.

This is true. There is suicide everywhere in the world - I don't however consider suicide similar to self-harm. People who commit suicide clearly want to end their life and it's a state of mind that most people on Earth can get into. People who inflict self-harm do not want to end their life but have different ideas in mind when doing this. If they did want to end their lives, they would cut themselves in a way that achieves this (which isn't difficult). In other words, they are not killing themselves - they are doing something else, whether it's craving attention or a temporary release of mental pain/frustration, etc...

And how do you know self-harm is not an issue in countries suffering from poverty and starvation? They don't gather statistics in those countries, and they don't focus on mental health because they have larger health issues to worry about.

I don't, I was actually basing my opinion on my own observations and experiences - if someone can prove me completely wrong, that's fine. And from these experiences I have noticed that people who have it REALLY bad, don't try and harm themselves but rather focus on trying to maintain a semi-decent lifestyle albeit under great depression.
And people who have harmed themselves were young people going through changes in their lives, who feel lost and have exagerrated their problems in their minds. And I can accept that not all people who inflict self harm are "spoiled" - it's not always the case but there seems to be a pattern that supports a connection between these two concepts.

And what I say makes sense to me. Why would someone who is desperately struggling to survive and feed his family try and physically hurt himself even more? It seems bizarre and I haven't heard of such cases.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

Why would someone who is desperately struggling to survive and feed his family try and physically hurt himself even more? It seems bizarre and I haven't heard of such cases.

well, theres a number of reasons they may do so.

maybe because they can pretend, that way, that theyre shedding their issues with the release of death....without the actual release of death.

maybe because its too much to live with, but not enough to cause them to die.

maybe because thats how they assure themselves that they are indeed still alive, and not in hell or something.

it could be because they WANT to die, they WANT to make that final cut/burn/whatever, but the thought of abandoning who they love in life causes them to fall short and hold off on the final stroke. they want to be rid of their misery but not cause more.

i assure you, for a questing mind, there are plenty of answers to discover.

[pizza]

Admittedly, I cut but afterwards I feel deeply ashamed. Considering I am in a relationship with a guy who is lovely, I wouldn't want to worry him by showing him several of my cuts, some of my scars, whatever.

For me, it's like a vicious circle. My mother and father do not understand so I wouldn't ever try to explain, but I get angry when I'm critisized, when they have a go at me etcetc. Makes me feel terrible and I just feel like smashing somebodies head into a wall when they really get going. I've no choice but to take it out on myself, instead of the furniture, which would cost a lot if smashed/thrown around. It's just better for everybody's benefit rather than taking ahold of my mother's hair and smashing her face into the wall.

End of half rant.

[Deeney]

I really hate when people say it's only for attention. That's absolute bull. They should feel glad they've never had to experience it, and therefore cannot understand.

I used to cut, and I hated anyone to see or know about it. It's not about attention at all, most of the time. And even in some cases when it is for attention, maybe the self-harmer believes that's the best way to let people know what's happening to them?

One of my friends was recently diagnosed with clinical depression and she's been cutting again, and she's ashamed to wear short sleeves. Would your friend say she does it for attention?

I'll never understand shallow, judgemental people. How they can live with themselves...
*breathes*

Rant over.

So true. I self harmed (using a razor to slice my arm) because when I felt really depressed (and its not the "Im depressed cause they dont have my colour" type) the pain is extreme. It hurts sooo bad that you try to gain some sense of control by creating a different type of pain that can be more easily controled (eg stopping it). For anyone who hasn't felt it, try to remember the worst you have ever felt when your chest literally hurts and you put your fist in your mouth to stop screaming out.
:cry:

[jhd1189]

Just a quick reminder to everybody: please don't let this thread get too personal. It's fine to share your own experiences and insights when they're relevant to the debate topic, but please try to avoid turning this into a story-sharing thread. Topics that personal aren't allowed anywhere else on the forums, so that rule has to apply in the debate room as well.

Thank you. :)

[missroxor]

I think that cutting is a coping mechanism in the same way that alcohol, drugs or even comfort eating among other things is. They’re all self harm though some are more extreme than others but they all provide a release and/or distraction from something that we find unbearable to even think about.

Jooxis, I can really see your point on this but I think to an extent most people probably self harm at some point in their life as a coping mechanism when things get really bad but a) depending on various factors like where you’re from, how you’re brought up, what you’re used to and your personality ones threshold for coping can vary massively from person to person and b) we each find our own ways of coping.

I grew up in a poverty ridden, dangerous and violent estate. I knew many who were a lot worse off than me who had that to deal with that as well as abusive (in various forms) parents/relatives among other things. To my knowledge none of them cut themselves but most self harmed. Usually drugs and/or alcohol abuse to escape their reality.

Ref the original post, from the way you tell it, it definitely sounds to me like one or two might have been genuine cases and the rest were doing it because they thought it was fashionable/made them more interesting/would get them extra attention. If the girl who cut herself in class was actually in danger then the teacher should have done something however, if the faculty had reason to believe that this was an attention thing then she may have been told to ignore such instances. I’m sure any mother would tell you that one of the best ways to cure a child of tantrums is to not react at all because then you are only giving them what they want – attention for bad behaviour.

[palabravampiress]

This is an interesting debate. A lot of ground has been covered. I don't think I could respond to or even absorb everything in one sitting, so please forgive me if I neglect to mention a relevant point.

I think it is both difficult and important to recognize that mental health issues are complex and relatively poorly understood. Only recently have we begun to develop methods of examining the underlying structural and chemical makeup of the brain. Only recently have we begun to develop medications that can adjust an individual's biochemistry so as to improve his or her overall function. For much of human history, all that we could do was observe individual behavior and rely upon self-reported accounts of symptoms. People fear what they do not understand and, as a result, subjects relating to mental illness became taboo. Those observed or reported to be mentally ill were feared, ostracized, institutionalized, and even sometimes abused or killed. Today, a social stima still clings to the idea of mental illness, sometimes even amongst doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and others in the medical field. The truth is that, while we know a great deal more about mental illness than we ever knew before, the diagnosis and treatment of such illnesses is still a highly subjective business that still relies heavily on self-reported analysis of symptoms and trial-and-error drug protocols. None of us can speak from a true position of authority on this issue; too many variables yet remain to discover, let alone explore in full.

That being the case, I think it is important to refrain from judging those who self harm or from deeming some forms as valid and others as invalid. There is simply no way for most of us to know the true mental state or intentions of someone who cuts himself or herself. Anyone who exhibits this behavior is acting in a way that is well outside social norms as well as basic self-preservation principles. Until that person is evaluated by a qualified medical professional, any theories pertaining to causation are mere conjecture. Whether certain cases or circumstances qualify as valid or invalid in your view should have no bearing on whether or not an individual should be afforded evaluation and appropriate treatment. Only highly trained medical personnel are qualified to make such determinations.

At the very least, patients presenting with deep or infected lacerations -- whatever their causes -- should never be barred from adequate medical treatment, including pain relief. Left untreated, those who cut or otherwise injure themselves are vulnerable to infections and other complications up to and including death. To deprive individuals of necessary medical assistance is unethical. To support that step based on your own ignorant assumptions of the cause(s) of the individual's malady is, well, cruel. In this day and age, when so many mental illnesses and their symptoms can be effectively treated or at lease assuaged, confirmed or suspected cases of mental illness or injuries derived from mental illness should never be ignored simply to gratify or justify the social stigma that still persists.

In my view, then, it is difficult to answer the OP's question of whether deliberate forms of self harm (for example, cutting) are in any way similar to other forms of self harm, like imbibing alcohol. Those external behaviors are the products of poorly understood internal processes. Until we know more about the causes of such behaviors (in individuals as well as in societies as a whole), it is nearly impossible to compare or contrast them in any meaningful way aside from stating obvious facts (like one causes immediate lacerations to the skin and the other causes organ and system failure over time).

The question of whether or not those who self harm are deserving of evaluation and treatment, though, is easier to answer. Since the cause of a malady, even a cut, can only be reliably determined by a trained professional, it would seem that the proper course of treatment (including doing nothing) cannot be determined without a proper evaluation. After all, how can we even be certain that wounds are self-inflicted unless a proper evaluation is performed? To deny treatment based on supposed cause seems rather like putting the cart before the horse.

[KeiraLou]

I don't agree with what your friend said at all. Self harm is not an attention thing, not a majority of the time anyway. Yes, there will be some people out there who do it as a possible cry for help so in that case it may be classed as an attention thing.

This a subject close to my heart as since I was about 13 years old I have had trouble with my emotions, hormones and chemical imbalancements.

When I was 18 years old I took two overdoses, cut my wrists and pulled a chunk of my hair out all at seperate times. I went off the rails after my first boyfriend dumped me without a reason, only a text message to say he couldn't do it anymore. Over the next few months I was drinking heavily, and always saw him as we shared the same friends. I would see him with other girls dangling off his neck while we were in the pub, and he refused to speak to me until he was drunk and would then drag me back to his house using me for sex. He played with my emotions to the max, knowing he had me around his little finger.

I then didn't see him as much and began going out with other friends and I am ashamed to admit I slept with his best friend and a few other people over the space of 3 months. One night my head just flipped out as I took a look at my life and the person I had become, and I came home from clubbing and took an overdose. I spent the night in the hospital having blood taken and having to drink that disgusting liquid to netrulize the effects of the pain killers. I was a complete mess, and the overdose was not an attention thing, I just honestly thought at the time I could no longer handle life and the name I had gotten for myself. I was the same on and off for the next few months, until finally getting better when I lost all contact with my ex and our old group of freinds. I made new friends, one being my current best friend, who practically saved me from myself.

But after having my daughter a year ago, I got very, very bad post natal depression which lead to me being put on anti-depressants. I began drinking heavily about 3 times a week, trying to make myself not feel these emotions as the depression was reminding me of how I had felt 4 years ago and I never wanted to feel like that again.

Now I have cut the drinking right back, drinking only a glass or two of wine on a saturday night. This has helped me almost 100%, I am still on anti-depressants as I don't feel ready to come off them for good just yet, I've tried and without them I have no motivation and get upset quite easily.

Telling you my expierence with self harm in short sums up to this;

It is not always an attention thing, people who think it is ok to put people down who get these feelings should button it because they quite clearly know nothing about it. There is nothing worse when you have depression then hearing people telling you to "Get over it" or "stop being an attention seeker" because think about, do you really think we enjoy feeling this way? I would give nothing more then to feel normal and happy 24/7 after going through all this in my life...but most of the time for myself and others like me, there is nothing we can do about it through no fault of our own!

[Amtram]

Don't deceive yourself into thinking this is a behavior limited to whiny self-indulgent Americans. We don't hear about people in poverty-stricken or war-torn countries because a.) they don't go to therapists to talk about their problems, and b.) they don't get onto the internet to talk about their problems. If anyone were concerned enough about discovering rates of depression and/or self-destructive behaviors among these people enough to do studies and surveys, you'll find them. Maybe they can't afford alcohol - but they'll indulge in some possibly more dangerous substance that's locally available. Maybe they don't have fashionable razor blades - but they'll tear at nails, pick at scabs, pull out hair, eyebrows, eyelashes. Neglecting your house and kids won't be as obvious a symptom of depression when you live in a dirt floor shack with no plumbing, and all the kids in the neighborhood run around dirty and naked. So don't think it's just an attention-getting ploy. How it's done and how much it shows depends on the culture. It's always there, just in a different form.

[Slayer645]

Okay, I had a quite a heated argument with a friend today about self-harm, especially self harm and drinking and smoking, and I just wondered what everyone here thought about it. Basically she argued that for her someone drinking or smoking, even in moderation, is self harm. Obviously when it comes down to it, it does harm your body, but she places it on the same level as self inflicted cuts, burns etc.


and what about earrings, piercings, and for that matter Cosmetic Surgery? that's self mulaltion.

or eating at Burger king? Obesity is self destructive... isn't it?

Hell caffiene is a mind altering drug right?

if your friend had her way we'd all be locked up and unable to Do ANYTHING because it might cause us some form of Harm...

I say lets take a moment and be thankful that your friend does not in fact Rule the World, but then I remember hat there are lobbiests out there already going towards this goal.

[simbalena]

if your friend had her way we'd all be locked up and unable to Do ANYTHING because it might cause us some form of Harm...

I say lets take a moment and be thankful that your friend does not in fact Rule the World, but then I remember hat there are lobbiests out there already going towards this goal.

I read that as her friend saying that self harm is acceptabe because everyone does it to some degree, not that no one should do anything that harms them in any way!

[himawara106]

I self harmed myself in that time where my father had strokes. He suffers now from severe dementia and there is no hope for him (he is in this state since 8 years). I didn't accept this for a long time, neither did my mum. I had to take care of her and was the one that had to tell her, that her husband can't help her anymore and that she has to have the strenght to accept that. In that time I suffered on depressions and self harmed myself by scratching my arms.
I can't say if I did this for attention. I can't say why I was so weak to do this - now the scratches are visible at my arms and I had problems to wear short T-shirts. But now I accept, that I was (and somehow are, because caring for a person with dementia isn't easy) in a very vicious situation. Everyone who want to judge me, for what I have done to myself, should be first in such a situation. I am grown up with this (this sounds sad, I know) and what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, but the scratches will always remind me of it and that's very sad.

[WayBack]

...the scratches will always remind me of it and that's very sad.

Think of it this way - it's not a reminder of bad times, it's a lesson for the rest of your life. Anytime you're feeling down, tired, stressed out, anytime you get into troubles, looking at those scars should remind you that you've been through worse things and you survived. Exactly as you wrote, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

the scratches will always remind me of it and that's very sad.


hopefully theyll also serve to remind you just why you dont want to repeat your past mistakes.
at least, thats the case with me. whenever im feeling particularly bummed, it serves as a reminder of what happened last time, and what i want to avoid.

[himawara106]

@Oprah and SuicidiaParasidia
That's a very good point. Thank you both.

[mornindew]

I used to self cut. But that was a long time ago. I had a lot of stuff happen to me as a child and I would have flash backs. Cutting my self at the time help me get through it. I know that it sounds stupid by I have seen and talked to someone and told me for what I had been through is it commen. But I never once showed anyone what I did. Now That it has been a very long time since I did it I look back and wish I would have talked to someone sooner. But my scars remind me of the worst part of my life and that if I could get through that then I can get through anything. Of course people still stare at it and some people ask me about it and well that is something I have to live with. But I know who I am and that is all that matters to me.

[fluttereyes]

Well this is a subject that affects my life but not in the way the OP says. I think at her school it was deemed to be cool in some way to be doing this, and I do think a lot of it was attention seeking and trying to fit in with the corwd. People who self harm due to mental illness, don't usually advertise it and normally do it in private.

I have an autistic son of almost 21, he self harms all the time. He is at present in a medical assessment centre for special neeeds people and is being assessed to see if there's anything we can do to reduce this. he hits his head off walls, to the point of actually putting his head through them. So I'm an expert plasterer now. I've seen him with blood running down his face and hands torn by punching light sockets. Now that's self harm, not just giving yourself a little cut on your arm for attention.

He did it as a baby in his cot, banging his head against the rails. So after 21 years of dealing with this I know the difference. There are times that I know my son is doing something just to get me to give in to him and give him what he wants, I never have but being Autistic he doesn't understand that and hopes that he will win the battle of wits, he won't. There are other times though when my heart bleeds for him when he loses control and can't stop himself. His fingers are disfigured with biting them too.

So basically sum up without going into my sons problems even more, I'd say that a high percentage of self abuse is attention seeking, there is another percentage that do it as a reaction to their own low opinion or hatred of themselves, like people with body dismorphication (spelled wrong).

Smoking, yes, I'm usually a 20 a day smoker and yesterday I realsised I had gone through 40 in one day. That is self harm, smoking IS self harm and as someone who has been smoking for 34 years now I know it. I know the damage it's doing to me, I know the harm it does, so yes, it is self harm.

Alcohol, well the majority of people drink in moderation. I drink about 3 to 4 drinks maximum in a month, I have drank more regular in the past. That IS NOT self harm. But someone who downs a bottle or two of vodka or something every day, YES that IS self harm. My mother was an alcoholic when I was younger and I can assure you she would agree with me on that, while she drank she was on a total self destruct path. Luckily she stopped 26 years ago or thereabouts, but she still would say it was self harm, and I think she did it for attention too as she stopped so easily, but who knows.

Sadly we all know people in our lives who abuse themselves in one way or another, be it with drugs, self inflicted wounds, alcohol, or the roulette wheel of having too many partners. Who can truly say they never harmed themselves in their life though? I do it, I've done worse as a teenager and young adult, I did drugs. There were easons for it that I didn't see at the time but I do now. No I didn't do anything excessive like Heroin, more prescription stuff and things I won't go into. The majority of people who I know in my life now, would never suspect for one minute I had ever done anything like that, though I still have some of the same friends I had when I was 18 and they know most of it. Was it all for attention? Well i think there's a differnece between attention and a cry for help. I do believe a lot of people are crying out for someone to see how hurt they are inside and I DO think that was the case with me, I probably wanted someone to notice the anguish I was going through in my life.

Really, is your friend as pure as the driven snow? Or does she just judge other people so that she doesn't have to face her own issues? Humans are reckless by nature, trust me, there will be some area in her life where she damages herself. Does she drive? You could always say she's self harming by sitting in a car with all those carbon monoxide fumes from the exhaust, or the pollution she's putting into the air we all breathe.

Tell her that she is not the authority on all things and to come down off her high horse. Could it be perhaps that she judges other people in an attempt to bury her own insecurities?

Nobody can even hazard a guess at what is going through someone's mind when they are self harning and although I've given opinions here, they would vary from case to case. It can't really be generalised, so your friend is wrong in trying to generalise it like that.

[nylyak76]

there should be something with the subject of self harm in sims 2

[fragglerocks]

there should be something with the subject of self harm in sims 2

Now why would we want our Sims autonomously killing themselves? That would take the fun out of removing the ladder.

[TRIriana]

there should be something with the subject of self harm in sims 2

No, there shouldn't.


Edited to add: Threadromany! Seriously, reviving a thread that's 6 months old to post that?

[lovetadraw]

I started cutting, I have scars all over my left arm. I've tried to stop but I've gotten to the point where one way or another, I
feel like I'm gonna die if i don't lose some blood. Not to mention that when I get angry, all I do is start biting my hands,
arms, etc. I heard that what the best thin to do is to tell someone you really love, get there reaction, and get them to help
you through. Didn't go so well. Only made it worse. Even though I promised to stop. I couldn't keep it. Couldn't keep it. I think that's what some people don't understand, sometimes you can't stop.


I'm the first to admit I'm a total nutcase. But if you have a friend who does things to themselves, don't freak out. don't go
grabing there arm and making a spectacle of them. If you really love that person, you'll understand how they feel inside.
that there is nowhere to turn, so they turn to - drugs, alcohol, cutting, even excessive dieting, to deal - (in my case) not
to solve them, but deal with problems. Because we feel like if we tell someone, they might reject me. Or my parents would
just get stricter, and more intrusive (which in my case was the truth).


I know that for me, I just wish someone would show me that they have a open heart and that no matter, they'll always love
me. A lot of people say it, but do they mean it? I think in a lot of cases no. because they think you're a freak.
I know with me the hardest thing was accepting that I needed someone else. Then I made the horrid mistake of getting my
hopes up. And well, if I hadn't been a moron and gotten my hopes up, I would have felt less pain.

And one last thing, never talk to the distressed person like you're perfect. Admit when you have issues you need to solve in your life. Or habits that may not be so great. Especially when they've called you out on yours before.

[fakepeeps7]

Now why would we want our Sims autonomously killing themselves? That would take the fun out of removing the ladder.

Or letting them run with scissors (I really need to download that item again...)!

[Vanito]

Theres some very interesting reseach about pollution, chemicals from plastics, etc relation to an increase of mental ilnesses. Its in a book, havent looked up the original sources yet, but it do would explain the increased amount of people who are fucked up some way or another. Most illnesses have always been around in some way, but they do seem to have become more frequent.

[fakepeeps7]

Theres some very interesting reseach about pollution, chemicals from plastics, etc relation to an increase of mental ilnesses. Its in a book, havent looked up the original sources yet, but it do would explain the increased amount of people who are fucked up some way or another. Most illnesses have always been around in some way, but they do seem to have become more frequent.

Don't refer to people with mental illnesses as "fucked up". It's rude and ignorant.

[Vanito]

Don't refer to people with mental illnesses as "fucked up". It's rude and ignorant.
That was not the intention, excuse to those who feel offended.

I have a mental/physical illness myself, no harm meant.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

If you really love that person, you'll understand how they feel inside.

love and understanding are completely different concepts, you realize this?

my mother loves me dearly. but does she understand me? not a whit.
see where im going with this? expecting understanding is like expecting help when youre down; hardly guaranteed.

or like saying, " if you really love me, youll have sex with me ".

no singular act or want can accurately attest someones measure of affection for you or anybody else.

[el_flel]

I think if you love someone you're more likely to be understanding, but you can only fully understand if you've been there.

[lovetadraw]

I kinda meant more that they'll understand you. Like, knows you. that's what I meant. Hope that clarifies a bit.

[asai]

It is all liberal nonsense, everyone has the right to play Russian Roulette with as many rounds in the chamber as they choose taking as many pulls as they want, go nuts seriously. It only becomes an issue when your conduct puts another person in harms way, for example drinking and driving. IMHO i would not have a problem with drunk driving provided of course there was a way to protect the sober, non texting, cell pnone off users from the other irresponsible element. Possibly a special set of lanes for those folks where a bulldozer comes by every hour pushing the flaming wrecks off to the side of the road, oh and no EMS service for wrecks in that lane. If you get caught out of those lanes driving drunk the officer just pulls out thier gun and shoots you on the spot leaving your body to rot or be collected by family.

It does not work that way though usually it is the responsible individual driving home from where ever who gets killed by the drunk, in a sense the drunk aka russian roulette player has put the gun to the side of someone elses head, not informed them of the game and pulled the trigger. What someone does in the privacy of thier home is thier bussiness, if that is cutting, drinking, drugs what ever i just consider that natural selection in action. In a perfect world those people are naturally selected from the gene pool before they can reproduce thier stupidity back in, but this is not a perfect world. So tell your friend to STFU and mind her own bussiness unless someone makes it her bussiness by involving her she has no say, Liberal pansy.

Asai

[Roseblossom90]

Self cutting has been a problem with me since I was in middle school. I was always pressured to be the 'good girl' and the 'teachers pet'. Pretty much I was expected to do everything for everybody that needed something done. And now, five or six years later, I still feel the need to self cut.

My boyfriend doesn't understand that it is an actuall 'need' for me and not just a 'want', that it is a stress reliever for me the same way cigarrettes or alchohol is for him. But for the longest time it was the only thing that kept me from going completely insane, not only from school, but family problems, the effects of my mother's untimely death, and feelings of complete worthlessness. It seemed like before I would cut myself my world was crashing down around me, but after I felt the blade (or whatever I could find availiable at the moment) go through my skin and see the blood, the whole world and the problems that came with it seemed to disappear.

In an earlier post by lovetadraw (sorry, I do not know how to do the quote thing here) it was said to tell a loved one of the problem. I found that it actually can help and make a person feel more understood. In my case, I told my father and found out that he also was a cutter. I guess it just kinda runs in my family along with depression. The only thing that worries me about that is that my future children will be cutters and have to live with the scars and shadows of their manner of 'stress relief' the same as I do.

[fthomas]

My opinions on self harm are mixed. Whilst I understand that some people have serious problems and depression, some people just do it for attention.

Its normally easy to tell whether its for attention though.

[lovetadraw]

Yeah, once started hard to stop.

Telling a loved one? Only makes them think you're insane.

[paksetti]

Difficult issues like self harm are just that- difficult.
If you are deliberately harming yourself in any way you need to tell someone about it. There's a chance they'll think you're "crazy" but it needs to be done. Of course, saying you'll do it is a lot easier than actually doing it.
I've had to ask for help from my parents for much more than I care to get into, and I'll admit that my mom is not quite a genius, to put it lightly. She did treat me like I was insane for a while- but she did it because she cared and was worried about me, as much as I hated it. The important thing was that I swallowed my pride and got the help I needed

[Vanito]

Yeah, once started hard to stop.

Telling a loved one? Only makes them think you're insane.
Some people understand, some don't.

[mkwfreak]

Take it from me and my 18-year old sister, self-harm SUCKS. When i was 8, she spent a week in the kookoo house, and 5 years later, i spent 5 days there. killing yourself is not worth it.

[smorbie1]

IMO it's the hardest thing in the world to ask for help, because in those minutes or hours before you try to kill yourself, you don't WANT help. You want the pain to go away, and ending your life is the only answer you can think of. I have a number of mood disorders and I've struggled with this impulse for years. It's only recently that I've begun recognizing the signs that I really need to reach out. I still have a hard time doing it, but I've learned to fear the impulse rather than race toward it. It's not the answer I thought it was.

[Amtram]

A lot of times, it's just not something you can will yourself out of doing. I've never cut, but I've got scars from decades of other self-injury. . .couldn't leave anything alone. Got put on a new antidepressant, and without even giving it any thought, suddenly realized that I had no wounds, and I had to cut my nails because they had grown out. Just like that. Clearly, it's not a failure of will here, but something inherent in the brain.