Sex Changes

[HarlequinnRomance]

What is your view on them?

I have a friend, a "guy" who,in his mind,believes he's a woman. He's in the military so not like he can roam around in womens clothing,but when he's on leave he wears some from time to time. And I don't mean dresses.Just a skirt over pants every now and then. But this is my opinion on it. He can calls himself a thousand different girl names and dress however way he wants,he'll still be a guy in my eyes unless he legally changes his name or gets the surgery. I know the surgery is really expensive,so really if he wants to physically be a woman,then I'll start calling him by his girl name.

Do you guys agree with this?See something different?

[simbalena]

He can calls himself a thousand different girl names and dress however way he wants,he'll still be a guy in my eyes unless he legally changes his name or gets the surgery. I know the surgery is really expensive,so really if he wants to physically be a woman,then I'll start calling him by his girl name.

Do you guys agree with this?See something different?

I think it's extremely cruel to say that you will only call him what he wants to be called if he has drastic surgery. People shouldn't be forced to make those types of decisions just to gain acceptance.

You can still believe to yourself that he is male but show him the respect of accepting him for who he is now and call him whatever he wants to be called. It's not all about you. In fact none of it is really about you except that you are trying to force him to live by some fictional standard that you have determined is acceptable.

Doesn't it seem more logical for you to change your way of thinking instead of forcing him to change his gender? What's going to be the most helpful in the long run?

[HarlequinnRomance]

I think it's extremely cruel to say that you will only call him what he wants to be called if he has drastic surgery. People shouldn't be forced to make those types of decisions just to gain acceptance.
I do accept him.I know how he is and I'm not gonna change that or even try. But in my mind you are the gender you were born with unless you have the surgery or plan on getting it. It's not like I don't talk to him at all.

[HystericalParoxysm]

The surgery is a reaction to how she already feels she is - it's making the outside look like the inside (please excuse the horrible pun). It doesn't harm you or inconvenience you in any way to call someone by a different name or different gender pronoun - regardless of your beliefs. I believe you play the cards you're dealt, and can't imagine changing genders and going through the horrible pain, sexual trauma, and huge expense of surgery even if I did feel I was the wrong gender. I try to be open-minded but I just don't get gender dysphoria at all.

But for that, my beliefs are irrelevant - it's not about me, it's about them. If someone says "I'm a woman even though I was born a man - can you call me Jane please?" then, sure, she's Jane. It is no skin off my ass to change "he" to "she" and to call them by a different name. Hell, I don't go by my birth name - people who hold out and refuse to call me by my new name just seem to want to do it to impose their will on me - it's asshat behavior.

But to someone who is in that position - not just of wanting to use a different name but truly feeling inside like they were born wrong and they're trying desperately to correct it... to have you say, "No, you have to go get surgery first" is incredibly insensitive and selfish. How exactly do a scalpel and stitches and inverted penis-to-vagina change your view of her that radically? It's not like you're going to -see- her brand new vagina... is it?

[HarlequinnRomance]

I call him...that's gonna take some getting used to....by his girl name now.I think if you seriously think you're a woman on the inside,dress in it and act like one,then you should get the surgery if possible. I wasn't denying....her..anything. It was me wanting to see how badly...she..(This is gonna take awhile) really did want it. Not "I think I like guys and want to put on dresses every now and then". I wanted to know that she actually wanted to get the surgery and really did want to physically be a woman.

[HystericalParoxysm]

What it means to be a woman is going to vary from person to person - there are women who don't dress very feminine, but they're still women. There are men who dress feminine, but they're still men. It's a sliding scale and it's up to an individual to decide what they want. Gender goes a lot deeper than clothes and names - or genitals. I don't understand it really myself, but I'm comfortable with the gender I was born with. So I don't have to understand it - just shrug and let people be what they want to be.

Regarding the surgery... that is something -very- personal and not to be taken lightly. Even hormone treatments are a HUGE step and change not only your body but your emotions too. I can't imagine having someone completely work over and cut up my genitals - can you? Just the hormones I experienced with pregnancy and breastfeeding made me -crazy-. Hell, PMSing makes most women crazy - now imagine trying to change your body's hormones entirely. Being on hormones for a certain period of time is usually a requirement for most doctors to do the surgery.

Right now, I'd imagine your friend can still enjoy sexual pleasure and have orgasms and whatnot - may not be with the parts she wishes she had, but there are many transsexuals (both male and female - mostly the FTM though) who elect -not- to have the surgery simply because it can cause such massive nerve damage as to render them incapable of reaching orgasm or really enjoying sex ever again. Whether or not an individual undergoes surgery really should be fully up to them - having pressure from a friend to have it so you can be accepted for who you are is really unreasonable.

And that's not even considering the -massive- expense of having surgery - which is not covered by pretty much any health insurance. Thousands and thousands of dollars - just to do the genital surgery, not counting additional things like breast implants, facial feminization, etc. - do you have $20,000 to give your friend to do this?

Even if it -is- just "I think I like guys and like to wear dresses - and would prefer to be called 'she' and by a girl's name," what does it matter? Even if she decides that's not right for her later and wants to be a man again, it's a minor adjustment for you and a -huge- adjustment for her. If this person truly is your friend, support her in what she's doing, even if you don't agree with it or understand it. You don't have to be a cheerleader for transsexuality - just try to be understanding and make the small accomodations she's asking for.

[jooxis]

I would call them by whatever name/gender they preferred, although they will always technically be the gender they were born. Just like Michael Jackson wasn't caucasian. Not that that matters anyway, but for now, surgery can't change your DNA.

[HarlequinnRomance]

Well I mostly said all that because I wanted to make sure (I still wanna call him he because that's what he is on the outside) she really did want it. I know it's huge for her and what not,but if you say you really feel like a girl on the inside,you should dress and act like it if possible. No picking and choosing when you wanna be one gender or the other. I think that when he finally gets outta the army,which is in about a month, she'll go around wearing girl clothes and growing out her hair and actually doing what she feels like on the inside which is fine.It's showing that she really wants it.And she doesn't have to have the surgery for me to call her a girl's name (it'd probably be easier to call him a girl and use she and what not though) but I did wanna know how serious she was about all of it.

Actually earlier I was jokingly telling her no gay gestures or whatever to the asians here (because I have a thing for them XD) and she had to correct me,saying she was a lesbian. I still really haven't called her by the name she wants,because to me he's been a guy in the military named Gordon I've known since...7th grade.It'll take getting used to. And she's probably not gonna have surgery any time soon,it's a lot,but she does want it.

[el_flel]

A lot of transgender people don't have full gender reassignment surgery; it doesn't mean they are any less sure, just that it's a huge, huge thing to go through and not all people are prepared to do it. The surgery changes physical appearance but it doesn't change how that person feels inside so for some people it's not necessary. I'm glad you're now referring to her as female, I'm sure it means a lot to her, and if she decides at a later point not to have the full surgery then there won't be any conflict or anything between the two of you.

[lovetadraw]

I feel for your friend, and you should be supportive. Address her in her mind, not her body. And I feel like you do about surgery, but like HP said, it's very expensive. And like Ef fled said, it's kind of a big jump. But I will say, you're a good person to be so accepting. No one I know would be accepting like that. We need more people like you.

[Nekowolf]

Maybe partly because I live out in the northern rural, I don't know anyone transgender. And while I support their rights to do what the want and such, it's just something I will never understand.

I mean, you can "feel" like you're something else, but y'know, you're not. Not meant to sound condescending. Maybe it's because, I don't go on how someone "feels." You say he's a guy, so I will call him a he; because otherwise, it just bugs me calling a male a she, because it's wrong by definition; they are a biological male. Sort of like calling someone by the wrong name. I wouldn't mean it as an offense, just that I tend to be like that. If I knew someone like that, it would definitely take me some time get into the habit.

I dunno, it's just something that completely confounds me.

Oh, and a little off-topic as well, but I was rather irritated by that whole "first man to give birth!" thing from a while ago. The person had a sex change and kept all her female organs; that is far from being a man! Make a story of it when the first BIOLOGICAL male gives birth, now THAT would be a shocker!

[jooxis]

Maybe partly because I live out in the northern rural, I don't know anyone transgender. And while I support their rights to do what the want and such, it's just something I will never understand.


I try to imagine it as if I myself were in a man's body... it would feel like something is wrong, like it is not me.
However, I'm not sure whether that's because I may be very used to the idea of being female. I have a hard time determining how you can really feel and know your "real" gender - but obviously some people do (hence there being transgendered people).

[HarlequinnRomance]

Well I live in the rural south,the bible belt of Texas. So there's even less people like her than anywhere else it seems. And I'm only 18 (not saying that's an excuse really) but I don't know how to handle every situation yet. And I am a girl,so it doesn't seem like a big deal. I sometimes wanna just tell her "You'll be a real girl when you have periods where you wanna cut out your ovaries or you have the fear that you might be pregnant." But I know it's not fair,and I kinda wish she could have those fears and pain like a lot of other girls,since he wants to be a girl<_<I kinda have the same opinion as Nekowolf,and I'm not gonna change my opinion on something just because I now know somebody whose going through it.Even before he decided he wanted to be a she,it's always been my thought.

And it will take awhile.I've already told her she can borrow or take one of my bras,but the only silly rule I have is that he doesn't have a bigger chest than I do XD It's little and probably selfish,but she's really slender so bigger than a C would look ridiculous. I also told her we're gonna get her a wig and try to make her look as much a girl as possible. I still inwardly partly think she's still a guy...because we I put the bra on her and stuff it and what not,I'll know it's fake and see her flat chest. Dunno,it'll take time :\

[blackivy]

I kinda wish she could have those fears and pain like a lot of other girls,since he wants to be a girl<_<I

If she really feels like, and wants to be a girl I think she would rather experience fears and pain of a woman than continue being a man...

[simbalena]

I wanted to know that she actually wanted to get the surgery and really did want to physically be a woman.

Being unwilling to have drastic (potentially life threatening) surgery does not mean someone doesn't truly want to be a different gender.

Unnecessary surgery should be discouraged because you could die or get mutilated from complications, so if there is anyway that you can live happily without surgery it should be encouraged.

Wanting to be a woman is completely different from wanting to have surgery to be more like a woman. Just like there are millions of people who want a nose job or breast enlargement but wouldn't actually go through with surgery.

It almost seems like you want your friend to suffer more like some form of punishment for not wanting to act like a man.

[HarlequinnRomance]

It almost seems like you want your friend to suffer more like some form of punishment for not wanting to act like a man.
Wow,you feel very strongly on this apparently.And I'm not gonna say your opinion is wrong,it's just so much from the truth that I'm not even gonna bother with it.

[Vanito]

I guess when you know a few transsexuals, see what they have to go through, know how much they hate their body, know that as 5 year olds some already asked if they could grow up to be the other gender - it makes the person a lot more understandable, human, and a lot less freaky. The unknown is the ununderstood and as usually that is the case here.

Its lame that people worry more how THEY themself have to react to the transsex person instead of thinking about what he or she may go through. Beeing a transsexual sound like horror, and I feel sorry for the transsex girl she wasnt born a girl right away.

The transsexual I knew best was male biologically the whole period I knew her, though she looked a lot like a female already. (enough to fool passer by guys which was amusing) When I found out she was transsex, I simply asked her what she'd like to be called and she prefered to be called "she". So from then she was "she". I figured it would save a lot of fuss for after the operation to already call her 'she' and it made her some less frustrated about herself, since neither me, my family or friends they did not mind treating her as a 'she'. I do not see the issue here, neither did my friends. (including straight males - yes thats possible)

Typically transsexuals here have to go though living one or two years as the opposite gender, then get hormones, before they get operated to prevent people who change their mind from beeing operated. So chances are your friend will have a male body at least for a while.

[HarlequinnRomance]

Well I could be wrong,because once again,I never even knew somebody close to like this.It'd seem like to me that transsexual people would be happy about going through the procedures or anything that's needed.I mean,it is getting them closer to what they want,isn't it?I've always been comfortable in my body and never had any sort of feeling that I should be a guy.But it just sorta makes sense to me that the people going through the hormones and procedures and anything to do with it would be happy to be doing it. Ya it'd have it's ups and down like any kinda surgery (and I'm not saying this surgery is nothing,like getting inplants or anything),but ultimately they're gonna be what they've always thought they were in their head,right?

[ivan17]

Just, how much crazy you must be to do such thing...

[Linen]

Transgendered persons aren't all the same, much like we aren't all the same.
Among other things - as much as someone in question may be in the wrong body and have the wrong 'ingredients', they may want to still be able to have a biological child. I'm not sure what kinds of effects that hormone treatments would have on the reproductive organs, but to undergo gender reassignment would require taking out those areas which would leave you barren.

I can't really imagine on the spectrum of transgendered people, how they would feel, but I do know someone online who's intersexed. He (his parents had raised him as male) naturally speaks in a higher-pitched voice than I, has a rather small stature for being eighteen, and in some of his pictures, he's virtually feminine-looking (I'd like to also note that he is not a darker-styled person, where a lot of looks are androgynous). However, he had sent the group online a transcript of a chat with someone else in regards to himself - his lower body was female, according to that chat.
Let's just say that things clicked in my head when that was shown.

I'm not quite sure about how people deal with/treat him in real life, but I doubt that it's easy. An 'out' transgendered person would have problems too; in some fields of work, discrimination is apparent for such a person (which is considered 'gender identity' discrimination, I'm fairly sure).

And how crazy must one be to do such a thing? I'd think that would not be very crazy for the person in question. People might not understand your actions or wishes and they may think you're 'crazy' but you know yourself best. Acting on such wishes may not be so advisable ("I want to wear a suit of dumbbells and swim in the ocean!"), but something such as sex change may be desirable for the transgendered person sick of the more obvious ridicule that they deal with daily because they are transgendered.

It's worth noting to keep in mind that transgendered people were born so, but may not show it outwardly/overtly until later on due to parental influences or other factors in their life.

[TRIriana]

Just, how much crazy you must be to do such thing...

I don't get frustrated on the Internet very frequently, but saying that:

If you can't say anything useful, and only show revulsion and post derogatory comments, get out of this debate. That's incredibly insulting, troll.


Because of the psychological requirements for getting surgery etc, it's very unlikely your friend will be getting surgery anytime soon, as Vanito said. The recovery period is also very extensive, and takes a long time. It's traumatic surgery, so it's not a surprise when some decide not to have the surgery. It occupies a good few months of your life. It doesn't mean, if someone decides not to have the surgery, that their heart isn't in it.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Um, yeah. I gotta say, I agree with TRIriana. It's really insulting to call transsexual people crazy. I'm sure they get enough crap about it as it is. It's hard for someone who feels comfortable in their body to even begin to understand what they're going through. I sure as heck don't get it myself - I'm happy being naturally female. And I can't fathom putting your body through hormone therapy and surgery - but I can imagine, in a small way, how desperately one must want to look on the outside the way they feel on the inside. That's not crazy - that's sad and unfortunate that they have to go through that just to have what comes naturally to most of us. I don't get it, really - I don't think anyone who is not a transsexual can really understand what it's like. But that's what empathy is for - trying to understand someone else's feelings, even though you don't have them yourself. Practice empathy - it makes one considerably less of a douchecanoe if you can try to put yourself in someone else's shoes, even if you can't fully understand their position.

But just sticking your head into a debate to be insulting is not cool.

[HarlequinnRomance]

This has nothing to do with my friend and their problem,but related to the subject,I assume. Do you guys think gender,in your head of course,is learned or are you born with it?For instance like my friend...I'm not sure to what extent she felt this way,but I do know she wanted to be a girl for only 2 years now and most likely learned that she didn't like being a guy.When I first met her of course I don't think she had any idea and what not. But do some people just come outta the womb knowing that the gender they were biologically born with just doesn't seem right?

[HystericalParoxysm]

I dunno, I think it is something you probably tend to have naturally. I've always loved being a girl. Ever since I can remember, all the frilly dresses and crap have really appealed to me. On the other hand, my son (who is 1 1/2 now) is very boyish, and always has been - he likes playing with blocks and cars, and has very little interest in doll-like things... and is obsessed with grabbing his junk, and peeing on things.

I think it's also natural to experiment with gender somewhat - I went through a very androgynous phase in my early teens - cut my hair short, wore boyish clothes, even had little children ask me if I was a boy or a girl. But I always knew that I was a girl, and wasn't supposed to be a boy - just liked the experimentation, same way I liked having purple hair and wearing black lipstick at various points in my youth, too.

[jooxis]

I guess if there are any transgendered members they would be able to answer that question more accurately. We can only speculate about how they feel (they may not all feel the same way) and how they became aware that something is wrong with the gender they were born with.

[HarlequinnRomance]

I don't think I was nearly as experimental as you are HP~Since...maybe 6th grade to junior year (and I just graduated from highschool so I remember this very well XD) I wore sweatshirts. I wore jackets,mostly anything over my shirt that had sleeves.Most of it was black and bands,so for what seemed like forever I wore a lot of black.I was even asked several times freshmen or sophmore year if I was a guy....I wore such a huge jacket for awhile it might've been hard to tell,but I was fairly..."gifted" in my chest so I think most people honestly thought I was a boyish lesbian...But I knew I was a girl and flaunted it and flirted with the guys a LOT,showing off my lady lumps when I felt like teasing them. I never ever had any thought of maybe I might be a guy.

Like probably a lot of girls,I wondered what I'd look like as a guy of course.Put my hair up into a baseball cap every few years,but never dreamed about it or felt wrong in my body. I felt awkward when I was growing into a women's body of course,but not that it felt wrong...

[Vanito]

Theres a youtube video of a VERY young girl (guy) who insists shes a girl. Shes 8 or something. her parents tried to make her a boy for quite a while but of no avail, the kid went depressed. On the other hand, some people discover they are transsexual on a late age. In men the testosterone naturally declines by age, while in women it raises with age - which may explain the people who have always feltsome what arkward, but only later in life are sure. The young ones seems rather clear cut cases.

[HarlequinnRomance]

Theres a youtube video of a VERY young girl (guy) who insists shes a girl. Shes 8 or something. her parents tried to make her a boy for quite a while but of no avail, the kid went depressed. On the other hand, some people discover they are transsexual on a late age. In men the testosterone naturally declines by age, while in women it raises with age - which may explain the people who have always feltsome what arkward, but only later in life are sure. The young ones seems rather clear cut cases.
I think I've seen that before but it's been awhile so I'll watch it again.My friend is....Goodness...21-24.Hard to keep track when they're in the army and not there for the birthdays. And there's plenty of guys I've seen that were (for lack of a better term) hit by puberty like a mac truck.I don't think I've seen any girls.And with my friend,I always thought "Ok,he's a bit feminine" which turned to "Ok,so he's gay." and which now is "He wants to be a she..."

[simbalena]

I wore such a huge jacket for awhile it might've been hard to tell,but I was fairly..."gifted" in my chest so I think most people honestly thought I was a boyish lesbian...But I knew I was a girl and flaunted it and flirted with the guys a LOT,showing off my lady lumps when I felt like teasing them. I never ever had any thought of maybe I might be a guy.


Yeah so you can't relate to what your friend is going through, but they know themselves more than you know them.

Psychological studies have proven that people think they know more about others than they really do. Individuals needs to learn to accept everyone else for who they are, because they know themselves more than anyone else does.

[Vanito]

I think I've seen that before but it's been awhile so I'll watch it again.My friend is....Goodness...21-24.Hard to keep track when they're in the army and not there for the birthdays. And there's plenty of guys I've seen that were (for lack of a better term) hit by puberty like a mac truck.I don't think I've seen any girls.And with my friend,I always thought "Ok,he's a bit feminine" which turned to "Ok,so he's gay." and which now is "He wants to be a she..."
Have you asked her at what age she realized she was a female in her head?

[HarlequinnRomance]

Have you asked her at what age she realized she was a female in her head?
I don't believe so....I know I've asked her why she wanted to become a woman,but it's been quite awhile since I've asked..And I'd ask now but she's asleep. And at first,I didn't really believe her. I didn't understand it,still don't and had no idea why she'd wanna change her gender.

[Vanito]

I don't believe so....I know I've asked her why she wanted to become a woman,but it's been quite awhile since I've asked..And I'd ask now but she's asleep. And at first,I didn't really believe her. I didn't understand it,still don't and had no idea why she'd wanna change her gender.

There is some biological research, and there are sites with info. Its probably also usefull to simply talk with your friend. She can give you a far better idea on what she experiences than any book ever can.

[Nekowolf]

Just ignore ivan. It'll be better for your health.

[lovetadraw]

Transgendered persons aren't all the same, much like we aren't all the same.
Among other things - as much as someone in question may be in the wrong body and have the wrong 'ingredients', they may want to still be able to have a biological child. I'm not sure what kinds of effects that hormone treatments would have on the reproductive organs, but to undergo gender reassignment would require taking out those areas which would leave you barren.

I can't really imagine on the spectrum of transgendered people, how they would feel, but I do know someone online who's intersexed. He (his parents had raised him as male) naturally speaks in a higher-pitched voice than I, has a rather small stature for being eighteen, and in some of his pictures, he's virtually feminine-looking (I'd like to also note that he is not a darker-styled person, where a lot of looks are androgynous). However, he had sent the group online a transcript of a chat with someone else in regards to himself - his lower body was female, according to that chat.

Just remember, Trans-sexuality isn't the same as Inter-sexuality.

[coffeebreak]

It's a logic problem and trans idiots are quite bad at logic. Consider. Do you need to call yourself a monkey in order to wear a monkey suit or eat a banana? Yes or no, pick one. Now explain your answer.

[coffeebreak]

We also have to remember that there is a huge amount of pressure on people, especially children, to conform. A boy is not allowed to perform activities or express the emotional patterns traditionally associated with females. If he does, he's ridiculed and harrassed. A boy learns very quickly that he's NOT ALLOWED to perform femininity while presenting as male. So if he has a strong desire to express qualities traditonally associated with females, then he magically convinces himself that he's a girl.

[Nekowolf]

Triple-posting aside...

Okay. So. You don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, while at the same time as calling them idiots. Choose one, hm? Secondly, you say it's a problem of logic, then your own logic should stand on its own as well. Barely does it do that; it stands on shaky ground.

First of all, your first post establishes a black-and-white fallacy. It's assuming A or B. Issues like this are usually psychologically complicated. Putting on a costume for the sake of it hardly compares to the attempt to embrace another, eh, for the sake of argument, let's say subculture. Makes it easier to understand. If I dress as a monkey for Halloween, I know I'm not one. I know it is simply dressing up out of the tradition of the holiday. Transgenderism is different; if you want to be, say, a goth, you would dress goth. If you want to be a biker, you would dress like a biker. Transgenderism is similar to embracing a subculture, and oftentimes, those subcultures have trends within them that you would also embrace. If you wanted to embrace your opposite gender, such as male to female, you would embrace the trends that you see within female culture, e.g. drag.

Furthermore, conformity is rather subjective. It changes on various variables, such as region, family, society, etc. While there is indeed pressure, it varies greatly, so if you want to use it as part of your argument, you'll need to do a lot better, such as providing further evidence. Because as long as there are people who are transgender yet are deviants from your argument, then you argument will face criticism on that point, in that while it could be true in a number of cases, does not apply to all cases, and therefore must be other reasons for their feelings. In which cases, only further destabilizes your argument.

Lastly, the same could be said of those people. However, and perhaps I just missed it, I did NOT see anything that said "they believe they are animals." I only took a quick look at the text. If this the case, you are then assuming they think they are animal. And if that is the case, well, I don't think I have to point out the irrelevancy. Nor do I see how reputation has anything to do with this aside from there are those who accept the deviants, and those who reject them. But that's a different argument. But even if that was the case, you seem to disregard any psychological causes into what I perceive as the idea that they chose to have these feelings, which is comparable to homosexuals choosing to be homosexual.

Furthermore, I really don't see how this is "like the religious zealots." It's like the comment in the Homosexuality topic about how being anti-gay is slavery. It makes no sense. These people are not forcing their values or morals on others. They are not saying "You cannot have sex!" You cannot do this or that or be punished. You must believe in our God. True, they may ask people to accommodate them, that much is accurate. But accommodation in that you treat them like the sex they want to be, which is fairly reasonable. It's not like it is a great cost to you. However, you can also reject them for it; though I would personally label you as a huge dick for it.

So to summarize, I think you are full of it. Your arguments are poorly made and constructed more on personal bias, possibly even hate, rather than the logic you seem to tout, of which you do not seem to demonstrate all that much in your argument. To say you did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings is either a farce, or nativity. Please try harder next time.

[whiterider]

If you disagree with an opinion or belief, coffeebreak, then comment politely on that opinion - not on the person or people who hold it. Calling anyone names has absolutely no place in a debate.
In addition, use the Edit button if you wish to add to a post, rather than posting several times in a row.

Transsexualism is very difficult to understand - even for transsexuals, sometimes. The problem is that no-one really knows how it works biologically: a transsexual person can tell you, without shadow of a doubt, that his or her physical gender doesn't match his or her mental and emotional gender; but they can't tell you why that is, or how it came to be.

I found it quite difficult to grasp when I first really thought about it - I understood the idea of being female inside and male outside, but I was trying to define what, exactly makes you male or female in your mind. Are there particular thought patterns? Do guys' brains work differently to girls' brains? What is it? I found that I couldn't identify a single part of my psychological identity which could only be a female trait. So I wondered, as a lot of people do - why can't a transsexual girl just be an effeminate guy? Why can't a transsexual guy just be a tomboy? But on the other hand - almost every person I've met over the internet has assumed that I'm a guy. So clearly, there are strong gender traits in a person's personality.

Of course, in person, people see my long hair and K cup boobs and figure out pretty snappily that I'm just a girl who's not very effeminate. And over the internet, people take me at my word when I tell them I'm female. Transsexual people, though, don't have that luxury - and this is where I think coffeebreak does have a point, albeit an ineloquently put one. It is, I think, people's perception, and their gender-based expectations, which can make life so painful for transsexuals. If society had absolutely no rules or expectations that discriminate on the basis of gender, then I'm sure transsexuals would still feel uncomfortable with their bodies, whether to a greater or lesser degree I don't know; but I don't know if so many would end up being sucked into depression and self-loathing by it. People are treated differently based on their perceived gender - and I don't just mean whether you call someone sir or miss, or whether kids are expected to like Barbie or Scalectrics; we all make assumptions about people's tastes, desires, skills, attitudes, abilities and needs, based on their gender. Of course we're also often wrong, because no-one fits the gender stereotype exactly; but while most guys don't mind having to tell people, every now and then, that they really don't give a damn about football, and most girls don't mind having to point out that they spend three hours a week training in kickboxing; if you're transsexual you have to deal with that all the time, in every aspect of your life. Even the people who should know you better than anyone else - your parents, your boy/girlfriends - make assumptions, sometimes occasionally or sometimes constantly, that couldn't be more wrong.

On the subject of surgery, hormone therapy, or of transsexual people living as their real gender; it's certainly true that all this is very expensive, very painful (I never even thought about this until my [transsexual] ex-girlfriend mentioned it - but guys have body hair, and to live as a girl in order to be approved for hormone therapy is very hard if you have stubble. And you know what; laser hair removal on your face, chest, back, arms, and legs once every two weeks leaves your skin feeling like its been scrubbed with bleach), and very inconvenient. There's also another barrier - it takes a huge amount of courage to go out in public dressed as the opposite gender to what people think you are. Having a sex change is a gradual process - there's no moment of "Ding! You looked like a guy/girl yesterday and today you look like a girl/guy!". So, at some point, you're going to have to let everyone in your life know - not just your friends and family, but your colleagues, your neighbours, your professors, the corner shop guy, your doctor, and everyone else who you have enough contact with that they know who you are and will recognise you - that you're transsexual. Whether you do that by telling them face to face, or by turning up at work one day dressed as the other gender; it's terrifying. Being transsexual isn't understood by most people, and it isn't accepted by many - the fear of being laughed at, insulted, bullied, or worse can be paralysing.

In the end, though, although all the ideas on what and why and how are fascinating - it comes down to the fact that we are not inside other people's heads. If I tell someone that my life's goal is x, I expect them to believe me; if I tell them that I can't handle y situation well, I expect them to believe me; and if someone tells me that their gender is z, I believe them.

HarlequinnRomance, I'd suggest not getting too distressed by the difficulties of, well, trying to figure out what's going on in your friend's head - just being sympathetic, and accepting that she's a girl even if you have no idea why or how, is very valuable and will help make all this easier for her to cope with. :)

</END VERBOSITY (sorry :p)>

[el_flel]

This has nothing to do with my friend and their problem,but related to the subject,I assume. Do you guys think gender,in your head of course,is learned or are you born with it?For instance like my friend...I'm not sure to what extent she felt this way,but I do know she wanted to be a girl for only 2 years now and most likely learned that she didn't like being a guy.When I first met her of course I don't think she had any idea and what not. But do some people just come outta the womb knowing that the gender they were biologically born with just doesn't seem right?You might find this thread interesting and helpful: http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=409097.

I've already posted in that thread but basically I think gender identity is biological. Even when kids' parents try and raise them as the opposite gender most of the time they don't conform to it, and research into this and intersexed people is shifted towards biology. Very interesting.

[jooxis]

I have a friend who seriously thinks he's an elf and is 700 years old. He takes it very seriously. I don't really know what's going on inside his head but I accept it - I call him by his elf name, since he prefers it (in fact according to him that's his real name of course). I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't hurt to sympathize with how someone feels about themselves. *shrugs*

[Bunny Boo]

I don't mind being called a crazy idiot by people I don't know through the internet. It's hurts a tiny bit, yes, but the support I (and I guess many others) want and need comes from my family and friends.
So, HarlequinnRomance, you don't need to understand och approve, just accept and be there for her! It's ok if it's difficult for you, but you need to remember that this is about your friend, not you. Do you want to be her friend? Accept her, because you can't change what she's feeling. You can't go inside her head and see for yourself what's she's thinking, so you've to trust her on her words.
I hope I didn't come across as harsh or rude, if so I apologise :)

Also, clothes and hair has little to do with gender. A man can wear pink frilly skirts and still be a man. A girl can wear pink frilly skirts and still know she should have been born a boy.

[whiterider]

el_flel, yeah, that is interesting - more support for the theory that it's a biological "mismatch" that causes someone to be transgender. There are also some people who are born with both a male and female genotype - XXY - which is very interesting; sadly I haven't had much luck reading up on that phenomenon. I guess that could cause intersexualism, asexualism (or perhaps I should say androgyny?), or transsexualism... it's good to know scientists will never be out of a job.

[HarlequinnRomance]

The only people I understand who might grow up confused about their gender are people born with both parts of a male and female,like whiterider said. That makes complete sense to me if they were born that way,the parents had to make the decision which and might've picked the wrong one on how the child would grow up. I don't know much about it,but maybe their body already knows which hormones it'll produce and then you kinda messed up if you picked the wrong gender. I understand that completely. I don't understand what my friend wants at all.He'll always be a guy to me but I'll call him whatever name he wants,like some people prefer to be called a nickname or their middle name. Fine. I don't really wanna delve in her head as to why and how and all the details. I'll simply ask how'd she know and when.I'm not a brain surgeon and don't need to know what makes this guy (who always had friends,wasn't socially awkward,wasn't hit by puberty like a mac truck and had self esteem) now wants to completely be a girl.

I asked her how she knew she was a girl and when and here's basically the summary.My friend said she knew for the better part of two years,so I guess she wasn't born thinking something was wrong. She also said she felt more comfortable thinking she was a woman and not a guy,it made her more happy the more she became Trista instead of Gordon.

She didn't really elaborate on anything and said she basically didn't know really how she knew when she was a woman.

[Vanito]

el_flel, yeah, that is interesting - more support for the theory that it's a biological "mismatch" that causes someone to be transgender. There are also some people who are born with both a male and female genotype - XXY - which is very interesting; sadly I haven't had much luck reading up on that phenomenon. I guess that could cause intersexualism, asexualism (or perhaps I should say androgyny?), or transsexualism... it's good to know scientists will never be out of a job.
XXY causes babies to become (usually femized) men, which is called Klinefelter's syndrome.

Hormones do not tell the whole story, the actualt result of a hormone is determined by both the level of hormones, AND the sensitivy of the receptors for the hormone.

An easy example of this can be seen in babies born with XY chromosomes (which normally make people male), who happen to have full androgen insensitivity syndrome. They grow up to be women with boobs and a vagina. The male hormones are there, the body just can't see or make use of them, so the result is an (infertile) female.

I don't know much about it,but maybe their body already knows which hormones it'll produce and then you kinda messed up if you picked the wrong gender. I understand that completely.
Why do you assume the body maybe knows which hormones it will produce if the genitals are defect, but cannot have the same defect if the genitals appear not defect?

[TRIriana]

I have a friend who seriously thinks he's an elf and is 700 years old. He takes it very seriously. I don't really know what's going on inside his head but I accept it - I call him by his elf name, since he prefers it (in fact according to him that's his real name of course). I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't hurt to sympathize with how someone feels about themselves. *shrugs*

I would say this is quite different to the actual transexualism. For example, there is no elf hormone. If someone is seriously going around convinced they are a creature that does not exist, it might be more beneficial to discover why they would rather be that than a human being. If this is actually a locked in problem, it isn't so far from people believing they are Jesus or Napolean and appears to be more indictive of schizophrenia.

To clarify transgendered individuals have been autopsied post mortem and found to have brain structures indicative of the opposite gender. You can't say the same for someone who believes they are an elf.

[ivan17]

Um, yeah. I gotta say, I agree with TRIriana. It's really insulting to call transsexual people crazy. I'm sure they get enough crap about it as it is. It's hard for someone who feels comfortable in their body to even begin to understand what they're going through. I sure as heck don't get it myself - I'm happy being naturally female. And I can't fathom putting your body through hormone therapy and surgery - but I can imagine, in a small way, how desperately one must want to look on the outside the way they feel on the inside. That's not crazy - that's sad and unfortunate that they have to go through that just to have what comes naturally to most of us. I don't get it, really - I don't think anyone who is not a transsexual can really understand what it's like. But that's what empathy is for - trying to understand someone else's feelings, even though you don't have them yourself. Practice empathy - it makes one considerably less of a douchecanoe if you can try to put yourself in someone else's shoes, even if you can't fully understand their position.

But just sticking your head into a debate to be insulting is not cool.

I think that they are like more demanding gays. What if such person is born before 200 years? There was no such surgery.
Just wondering, what is the opinion of scientists?

Anyway, I agree with this:
...but I can imagine, in a small way, how desperately one must want to look on the outside the way they feel on the inside.

[HystericalParoxysm]

There were transsexuals before sexual reassignment surgery. You just didn't hear about them much because they weren't public about it... because it probably would have gotten them killed. I recall hearing about one person, born a woman who lived as a man his whole life, around about Victorian times - it was only discovered that he was biologically a woman when they went to bury him.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with your sexual preference for other people - calling them "demanding gays" is just flat out wrong. There are transsexuals that span the spectrum of sexual preference - some are gay, some are straight, some are bi.

Gender identity disorder is a recognized psychological disorder (http://psych.org/search.aspx?SearchPhrase=gender+identity). That doesn't mean people need to be cured of it by being "fixed" to be whatever gender they are naturally, though there certainly are some people (often with a religious tilt) who will claim this.

[HarlequinnRomance]

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with your sexual preference for other people - calling them "demanding gays" is just flat out wrong. There are transsexuals that span the spectrum of sexual preference - some are gay, some are straight, some are bi.

Mhm,like my friend is claiming to be "lesbian".Which she had to correct me on,because I called her gay :\ She still likes girls,in fact,she has feelings for me.

[el_flel]

If she feels that she is female and she's sexually attracted to females then it makes sense that she would call herself a lesbian.

[crocobaura]

Regarding gender issues, I remember reading some time ago about a study involving transgendered people, and there was this case involving identical male twins, one of which had been gender reassigned as a girl due to some complications that arised from circumcision. So basically, he was raised as a girl from infancy, and everyone assumed that she would marry a guy and settle down like all women do. To everyone's surprise however, the girl announced her parents that she had felt for some time now that she should have been a boy and decided to have gender changing surgery and live her life as a man from then on. It's only then that the parents told her about the issues with the circumcision and realised that they shouldn't have raised her as a girl, because like someone above said, wearing skirts and makeup doesn't make one a female.

[lovetadraw]

There were transsexuals before sexual reassignment surgery. You just didn't hear about them much because they weren't public about it... because it probably would have gotten them killed. I recall hearing about one person, born a woman who lived as a man his whole life, around about Victorian times - it was only discovered that he was biologically a woman when they went to bury him.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with your sexual preference for other people - calling them "demanding gays" is just flat out wrong. There are transsexuals that span the spectrum of sexual preference - some are gay, some are straight, some are bi.

Gender identity disorder is a recognized psychological disorder (http://psych.org/search.aspx?SearchPhrase=gender+identity). That doesn't mean people need to be cured of it by being "fixed" to be whatever gender they are naturally, though there certainly are some people (often with a religious tilt) who will claim this.


Yeah, a trans-woman who likes a guy isn't a gay guy, she's straight in the 'wrong' body.

[Neerie]

I've watched a show on youtube sometime ago, which was about the lives of I think 3 young transgender children (one of which might well be the one Vanito mentionned earlier). I found it extremely touching and heart-breaking. Here's the link to part 1 (of 5):

20/20: My Secret Self (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utpam0IGYac)

It can be hard to understand for many, but once someone open their mind to the fact that gender and gender roles are a 100% cultural thing, then it becomes easier to understand that someone might have been born of the wrong sex. Not every cultures view genders the same way, some even culturally introduced third or even fourth genders, through surgery (ennuchs) and spirituality.

And as was already mentionned, gender is nature, not nurture. You just simply can not make someone feel like a girl because you raise the kid as a girl, and vice versa. That is why I am personally totally against any "fixing" of the genitals on ambiguous looking newborns, no matter what the chromosome results might say. So long as the kid can evacuate bodily fluids normally, I say let it be and they can decide later.

[Oaktree]

The only people I understand who might grow up confused about their gender are people born with both parts of a male and female,like whiterider said. That makes complete sense to me if they were born that way,the parents had to make the decision which and might've picked the wrong one on how the child would grow up. I don't know much about it,but maybe their body already knows which hormones it'll produce and then you kinda messed up if you picked the wrong gender. I understand that completely. I don't understand what my friend wants at all.He'll always be a guy to me but I'll call him whatever name he wants,like some people prefer to be called a nickname or their middle name. Fine. I don't really wanna delve in her head as to why and how and all the details. I'll simply ask how'd she know and when.I'm not a brain surgeon and don't need to know what makes this guy (who always had friends,wasn't socially awkward,wasn't hit by puberty like a mac truck and had self esteem) now wants to completely be a girl.

I asked her how she knew she was a girl and when and here's basically the summary.My friend said she knew for the better part of two years,so I guess she wasn't born thinking something was wrong. She also said she felt more comfortable thinking she was a woman and not a guy,it made her more happy the more she became Trista instead of Gordon.
She didn't really elaborate on anything and said she basically didn't know really how she knew when she was a woman.

There are some differences in the brain structure of males and females. These differences can and do lead to different preferences and feelings of personal identity. For example, gay men typically have a particular nucleus in their brains that is smaller than normal for males, matching the female physiology. It is possible that a certain combination of these feminine brain qualities can lead someone to feel that they are female.

I don't think that gender identity has anything to do with social roles, though. There is nothing in our genes that say that women wear skirts, like pink, and have to wear makeup. I have heard some transgender people using the fact that they don't fit these sorts of social roles as their reasoning for being transgender, which I think is silly, but I generally give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume that they aren't really capable of putting into words what makes them feel like the other sex.

[Purity4]

XXY causes babies to become (usually femized) men, which is called Klinefelter's syndrome.

Hormones do not tell the whole story, the actualt result of a hormone is determined by both the level of hormones, AND the sensitivy of the receptors for the hormone.

An easy example of this can be seen in babies born with XY chromosomes (which normally make people male), who happen to have full androgen insensitivity syndrome. They grow up to be women with boobs and a vagina. The male hormones are there, the body just can't see or make use of them, so the result is an (infertile) female.


Why do you assume the body maybe knows which hormones it will produce if the genitals are defect, but cannot have the same defect if the genitals appear not defect?

And let's not forget about this syndrome (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY_syndrome) .

[Purity4]

And as was already mentionned, gender is nature, not nurture. You just simply can not make someone feel like a girl because you raise the kid as a girl, and vice versa. That is why I am personally totally against any "fixing" of the genitals on ambiguous looking newborns, no matter what the chromosome results might say. So long as the kid can evacuate bodily fluids normally, I say let it be and they can decide later.

I completely agree with you on that. Let the child tell you what gender they are when they're able to. (OT: I'm also against forced genital mutilation which is what circumcision is.)

[HystericalParoxysm]

I completely agree with you on that. Let the child tell you what gender they are when they're able to. (OT: I'm also against forced genital mutilation which is what circumcision is.)

Strongly agree! It's up to nobody but the individual person to decide what is to be done with their own body and genitalia. Nobody should make that choice for them, however well-meaning (of course with the exception of things like medication and whatnot - those choices of course must be made for a child). But it breaks my heart, seeing well-meaning parents having "genital disambiguation" surgery performed on children who have "non-typical" genitals... as long as everything is reasonably functional and doesn't cause them pain, it's horrible to do that to a child.

I saw a case recently of a doctor performing surgery to cut down abnormally large clitorises on girls as young as 6 months old, and it made me see red. I've seen so many people - adults - who have had such things done to them as children who are horrified at it. It's hard to be different, but even harder to be irrevocably damaged.

And even "routine" procedures such as circumcision, IMO, should be banned except in the rare cases where it's medically necessary - leave it up to the individual to decide what to do with their own genitals, when they're old and mature enough to make an informed decision. It makes me very sad to even think that my own sister - who I love dearly and is normally a super awesome person - had such a thing done to her own little boys without their consent, when they were just a few days old.

[jooxis]

A (non-religious) friend of mine says that getting circumsised when he was a baby is the best thing his parents ever did to him and is very grateful for it, hehe.
But seriously, what I'd like to know is - is circumsision even possible when you are old enough to consent to it, being an adult and all? Also, are there proven benefits to being circumsised without hardly any disadvantages? Because if circumsision is only possible during infancy and it brings mostly benefits then I could understand the parents wish to have it done. Otherwise, no.

[Purity4]

A (non-religious) friend of mine says that getting circumsised when he was a baby is the best thing his parents ever did to him and is very grateful for it, hehe.
But seriously, what I'd like to know is - is circumsision even possible when you are old enough to consent to it, being an adult and all? Also, are there proven benefits to being circumcised without hardly any disadvantages? Because if circumsision is only possible during infancy and it brings mostly benefits then I could understand the parents wish to have it done. Otherwise, no.

Yes, circumcision can be performed on adults. There are no proven benefits to circumcision, at any age. It reduces sexual pleasure for both men and women if the penis was circumcised. There is a huge risk of infection and deformation if circumcised. It's cutting off an essential part of the organ whose purpose is quite important. Without it, the glans (head) of the penis hardens in order to protect itself from things it shouldn't normally be exposed to. The trauma of circumcision in infants is absolutely horrendous and tortuous. If you've never seen videos of one being performed, you cannot know how inherently evil it is. I will never understand how a parent can torture their own child, infant, or how parents can rationalize this torture and why the hell they even are so obsessed with their baby's genitals in the first place.

[HystericalParoxysm]

It is completely possible to do when older - it's often done as part of conversion to Judaism when an adult. There aren't really any benefits to it besides a slight increased protection in HIV transmission during unprotected sex - which one should really be wearing a condom for anyway. All of the other supposed benefits - like it being "cleaner" are easily fixed by just taking a damn shower and washing it carefully. And of course there's the risk of scarring, and nerve damage, and for crying out loud, there's nothing wrong with it naturally, just leave it alone!

The only time it's really necessary is in rare cases where the foreskin is too tight and cannot retract, causing pain. I don't have a cock, so I can't really speak to it personally, but having - ahem - experienced both circumcized and uncircumcized penises, sexually, I -much- prefer uncircumcized and have never had any objections based on cleanliness. Plus a wangsleeve is just fun to play with.

We should proooooobably take this part of the debate to its own thread though. ;)

[HarlequinnRomance]

We should proooooobably take this part of the debate to its own thread though. ;)
Dam,I was about to start talking about it too XD
Well back on track I guess.
I disagree with mostly everybody here.I don't think the surgery is disfiguring or horrible or mutilation. You have the chance for all of those things happening when you open the body up,just this surgery is optional and is a lot more(or less)important for the person getting it. And I'm sure there's a LOT of science over these things,countless studies I'm sure. I really just wanna know if somebody thinks they're a different gender than what they are on the outside.Not saying every transgender person has to come out,makes more sense if they dress the gender they want and tell nobody but close people,but if I meet you on the street,I'm gonna go around thinking you're that gender.

[Drakesecaravdis]

Like probably a lot of girls,I wondered what I'd look like as a guy of course.Put my hair up into a baseball cap every few years,but never dreamed about it or felt wrong in my body. I felt awkward when I was growing into a women's body of course,but not that it felt wrong...

I guess a lot of girls really do wonder about being guys then sometimes because I've wondered similar. I'm not sure I wondered that much of what I'd look like..it's more of if I had been a guy would I feel the same about myself. would I have still had that reoccurring insecurity?
I have wondered this because I know that guys tend to be more confident than girls so there is that chance my feelings would change.
I do not want to be a guy though. being a woman can be very difficult but it is who I am and I wouldn't have it any other way. I just have these little what ifs in my mind sometimes.

I really just wanna know if somebody thinks they're a different gender than what they are on the outside.
it's not a question of do they think? it's that they really were born in the wrong body as countless studies have proven this.
although I think some people in this thread have already stated this so I'm not really sure what more you'd like to know

I understand though how confusing this whole thing is. like HP said, people who are not transsexual most likely won't be able to fathom it.
I saw a special on TV once about transsexuals and it was freaky/mind boggling. with this one person on it who had a sex change into a guy, I was like "he used to be a girl???? get out!! but how..I just don't..what?". it was unbelievable. you would never be able to tell he used to physically be a girl. and of course the whole question of how did this guy figure out he was a guy?

[whiterider]

Yeah - I think it's quite natural to think about what it'd be like to be the other gender. As you say though, that's really nothing like being transgender. It's also a myth that guys are more confident than girls - they just don't let on so much when they're feeling insecure. ;)

I think HarlequinnRomance meant that she wishes she could tell when someone's transgender - just by looking at them, rather than them having to tell her. I know what you mean. When my ex and I were out and about people would forever address her as sir, or mate, or whatever - and her sister had to refer to her as "my brother". It was so damn frustrating, and just weird - but what could these people do? As far as they could tell, she was a guy. They didn't mean to be rude, or to hurt her - but it certainly was painful for her.

[Drakesecaravdis]

It's also a myth that guys are more confident than girls - they just don't let on so much when they're feeling insecure. ;)

well I know that some are and don't show it but it seems to me that more girls are. I would imagine more girls are because we have more pressure..we put it on ourselves and also other girls put it on us too.
the only insecurity guys typically have is about their area. girls would be insecure about way more things

[simbalena]

well I know that some are and don't show it but it seems to me that more girls are. I would imagine more girls are because we have more pressure..we put it on ourselves and also other girls put it on us too.
the only insecurity guys typically have is about their area. girls would be insecure about way more things

Sorry but it sounds like you don't know anything about guys. Men are just as insecure as women, each individual has their own insecurities and you can't identify what those insecurities are based on the sex of the person.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

I do accept him.I know how he is and I'm not gonna change that or even try. But in my mind you are the gender you were born with unless you have the surgery or plan on getting it. It's not like I don't talk to him at all.

i am not what's between my legs any more than i am what my skin pigment is.


sex is determined by physical features.
are you your physical features?
are You a breast? are You a vag? is that what makes you You?

of course it isnt.

NOW, i will not deny that certain aspects of ones personality, mindset, et cetera are INFLUENCED by physical aspects such as hormones. but they are not determined by them alone. and i find it highly disrespectful to simply disregard on a WHIM that someone may not be limited to these few things you have decided to define YOURSELF by.

[Drakesecaravdis]

Sorry but it sounds like you don't know anything about guys. Men are just as insecure as women, each individual has their own insecurities and you can't identify what those insecurities are based on the sex of the person.

but I'm talking from a general standpoint as in who has more things that they are insecure about. I'm not saying that people don't have their own insecurities.
weight loss commercials..a lot of them are women. acne commercials, same thing.
womens magazines are filled with articles having to do with esteem/confidence.
also have you known about that many anorexic men? because from what I've noticed it's primarily women.

anyway hopefully you can see by my post that I mean when it comes to looks which is what I haven't felt good about for myself and why I would wonder if it'd be different if I was a guy.

[Oaktree]

also have you known about that many anorexic men? because from what I've noticed it's primarily women.


It's actually becoming more common for teenage boys to be anorexic. It's still more common in girls, but it is no longer solely a girl issue. I think that there is a lot of pressure on girls to look a certain way, but the media doesn't really look kindly on guys that don't fit a standard of beauty, either. How often does the average-looking guy get the girl on tv and in movies? He's usually relegated to being the friend, but he never gets any further than that. Sometimes I find myself rooting for the average-looking guys, because they usually have better personalities, but even when Hollywood is hanging a lampshade on the "pretty and conceited" stereotype, they still almost never break free from the stereotype of the romantic interest being the hunk.

[simbalena]

also have you known about that many anorexic men? because from what I've noticed it's primarily women.

Anorexia isn't a measure of how insecure someone is about their appearance. Gym junkies can be just as insecure and many of them are male.

anyway hopefully you can see by my post that I mean when it comes to looks which is what I haven't felt good about for myself and why I would wonder if it'd be different if I was a guy.

Yes I understand what you're saying, but I think you'll find plenty of guys who are more insecure about their appearance than you are. The difference is it's acceptable for girls to express it more (and even encouraged because people look down on you if you appear vain and proud of your appearance).

Culture and environment does have a big impact on self-esteem and the media does try to make girls feel insecure so we buy the products they're selling, but I think you'll find that if you discussed the issue with young men they would say that they also feel like they are put under similar pressure, and have a whole lot of other pressures that you haven't considered.

[HarlequinnRomance]

I'm not gonna say which gender gets the most pressure from anything,because I can only speak from a girl's stance,but of course it'll seem like girls get more pressure.Drake said everything I would've basically. I know guys get under pressure and what not too,they just don't tell anybody,from what I've seen. I don't think I've met one guy who outwardly said he hated something about himself.Of course he might be thinking it,but I'm not a mind reader.If I had a boyfriend who came up to me saying he's insecure about his weight or not muscular enough,I'd think it's cute and offer to help him with it,not criticize him for saying his thoughts.

[Oaktree]

I'm not gonna say which gender gets the most pressure from anything,because I can only speak from a girl's stance,but of course it'll seem like girls get more pressure.Drake said everything I would've basically. I know guys get under pressure and what not too,they just don't tell anybody,from what I've seen. I don't think I've met one guy who outwardly said he hated something about himself.Of course he might be thinking it,but I'm not a mind reader.If I had a boyfriend who came up to me saying he's insecure about his weight or not muscular enough,I'd think it's cute and offer to help him with it,not criticize him for saying his thoughts.

Guys seem to have this macho complex, though, where they can't express those insecurities without being viewed as unmanly. If your boyfriend were to tell you those things, he would probably get teased by any of his male acquaintances who found out about it. Guys could feel insecure about themselves to the exact same degree that girls do, but they aren't as likely to express it.

[jooxis]

but I'm talking from a general standpoint as in who has more things that they are insecure about. I'm not saying that people don't have their own insecurities.
weight loss commercials..a lot of them are women. acne commercials, same thing.
womens magazines are filled with articles having to do with esteem/confidence.
also have you known about that many anorexic men? because from what I've noticed it's primarily women.

anyway hopefully you can see by my post that I mean when it comes to looks which is what I haven't felt good about for myself and why I would wonder if it'd be different if I was a guy.

It may be true that more women suffer from anorexia, but anorexia is not the only and best indicator of insecurity... for example, men seem to be more insecure about their performance in bed with the opposite sex.

Perhaps men hide their insecurity better, but even when I'm surrounded by seemingly confident men, one just had to come across a picture of a fully toned very attracive half-naked male model and they will all go "Oh he's totally gay look at him, ugh, do women really like that kinda stuff?!" - it's classic insecurity.

[Vanito]

Women are more insecure about their looks in general. Also women care more about beeing "nice". Men on the other hand worry more about not beeing a "wussie" or "loser".

Men find good looks more important than women in relationships - both straight and gay men, its a male trait to "objectify". As a result of this its women also worry more about looks.

[TristaSeraphim]

Again, this is the friend HR is referring to, same friend in this thread that i recently read and posted in. I appreciate all of your support, and even more so HR's suport in who i am.

http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=417080