Christmas: whose holiday?

[Nekowolf]

I was over at The Wild Hunt, a popular pagan blog, when the issue of Christmas was brought up.

On Faith: Is Christmas Christian? (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/12/on-faith-is-christmas-christian.html)

Counter-Point: Christians Should Take Back Christmas (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/12/counter-point-christians-should-take-back-christmas.html)

Summing it up; should Christmas be a Christian-only holiday? After all, the big proclamation among Christians is that it is a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

However, as is pointed out, and historically accurate, much of modern Christmas tradition has pagan roots. In fact, you could say the previous version of Christmas was Yule, a Nordic celebration. Lighting the Yule log, decorating homes with trees, and many other customs of modern Christmas hail from Yule.

So what is Christmas, and who should it be for? Should it be considered religious, or has it become secular? Should it be for Christians only? Etc.

EDIT: Thanks Elemental. Wow, how the hell did I manage that mistake? >.> BLAME IT ON THE GNOMES!

[ElementMK]

The modern American Christmas has as much in common with any religion as Arbor Day. I know a handful of Jewish families that set up a Christmas tree each year, and atheists will enjoy the season like anyone else.

It's not a linear observation of Jesus' birth and never was. It's a celebration of humanity; it's a conglomeration of dozens of religious rituals. The most popular American carols have nothing to do with Christianity. Instead, we sing about Santa having issues and how much fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh (hey!).

Look at our classic Christmas characters, like the Grinch or Scrooge. Christmas is about coming together and enjoying the company of one another, no matter your place in society. The only requirement is to provide gifts. :p

[EDIT] Oh, and a side note: The title should be "Whose Holiday?", or else you're saying "Who is Holiday?" and I frankly don't know how to respond to that.

[aasian]

I'm agnostic and I celebrate Christmas. I don't necessarily celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but to me & my family (as well as many others) its a celebration of family and enjoying being around the ones that you love. I have my own "Christmas".

[RoseCity]

I think of it as a festival that takes place around the shortest days of the year - found in many cultures throughout human history. Saturnalia is another example, I think. (which was Christmas++ with role reversal and orgies)

[kattenijin]

It may be interesting to note:

1) That at one time Christmas was banned in England and the Massachusetts' Bay Colony for being "too secular and pagan".
2) It wasn't untill 300 years after the birth of Jesus that his birth was even begun to be celebrated.
3) It is only within the past 140 years that Christmas has been celebrated in a manner simalar to today.
4) The story of Christ's birth was taken from older Egyptian and Sumerian religions, so dosen't even truly belong to Christians in the first place.
5) Etc, etc, etc..

EDIT: Also, see here:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=380143
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=335920
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=336156

There should be another one, but I can't seem to find it, odd...

Have a Happy Joshua's Day Everyone! :)

[unalisaa]

The modern American Christmas has as much in common with any religion as Arbor Day. I know a handful of Jewish families that set up a Christmas tree each year, and atheists will enjoy the season like anyone else.

It's not a linear observation of Jesus' birth and never was. It's a celebration of humanity; it's a conglomeration of dozens of religious rituals. The most popular American carols have nothing to do with Christianity. Instead, we sing about Santa having issues and how much fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh (hey!).

This is an interesting point. I see how such a holiday is useful, but personally, as a non-Christian, I find it wishy-washy to celebrate Christmas -- granted, the Danish word for the holiday is actually pagan in etymology, related to the English "yule" -- and sing carols about God and angels and how Jesus is our saviour.
There is plenty of reason to celebrate Christmas even if you're not Christian, and it's good to acknowledge that. There's nothing wrong in wanting to spend time with your family, light a whole bunch of candles, and give people presents.
But nevertheless, cultural consciousness is important. I can understand not wanting to create a completely new holiday, but I just wish people would give more thought to what they celebrated. I don't want funky new names or "Oh, Christians do this? We won't", but a little thought as to why certain traditions should be followed would be nice. Even if the answer turns out to be "Because that's how my grandfather always did it, and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside."

Also, out of curiosity: if an American child were to ask their teacher why Christmas is celebrated, what would be the answer?

[Shoosh Malooka]

Why stop at five when you can go all the way to thirteen?

6) No one buys Christmas presents for Jesus. Total number of gifts given to Jesus for Christmas: 0.
7) Nowhere in the Bible did God declare that we should celebrate the birthday of Jesus. God cares more about being number 1. Commandment 1: No other gods before me.
8) Christmas trees, holly, and mistletoe were considered supernatural by superstitious pagans because they stayed green throughout the year.
9) Originally, during the Celtic Midsummer Eve ceremony men would hang around the mistletoe and kiss to express their preference. This custom was later changed to include everyone.
10) The custom of exchanging gifts at this time was part of the Roman Saturnalia celebration. Early Christians knew this and were proactive in their refusal to give gifts at this time of year.
11) Santa Clause is a heathen God. He must be omnipresent and omniscient to perform the job of giving correct presents in one night, and he rewards the good and punishes the bad.
12) The first Santa intended for children to be placed upon was a Carthaginian deity that doubled as an alter where parents could roast their children alive.
13) English parliament banned Christmas in 1644, and Massachusetts passed laws that fined anyone caught celebrating Christmas in 1659.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Shoosh - "No one buys Christmas presents for Jesus. Total number of gifts given to Jesus for Christmas: 0."

I thought he got gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Una - "Also, out of curiosity: if an American child were to ask their teacher why Christmas is celebrated, what would be the answer?"

For most teachers, probably something cover-your-ass-ish. Like, "For many people, it's a religious holiday. For others, it's just about family and togetherness and good food. If your family celebrates Christmas, you should ask your parents what it means to your family... or if your family doesn't celebrate it, you can ask the parents of some of your friends who do, what it means to them." Of course, I had several teachers who were openly religious and proseletysing (sp?) types even at US public schools and would've had no problem talking about the baby Jesus and the manger and all that stuff.




I celebrate Xmas. Not Christmas. Just Xmas. I have a tree, and lights, and ornaments, and candycanes. We do stockings, and presents, and a big meal consisting mostly of dead animal and fat. It has nothing to do with any religion for us, and everything to do with family, togetherness, and love. We watched "It's a Wonderful Life" last night, and I'm typing on my new keyboard and wearing my new shoes as my husband puts together our son's complicated annoying toys.

If folks want to celebrate the religious aspects of it, that's fine. But the idea of "taking back Christmas" is just ridiculous to me, considering the traditions that most people celebrate (tree, lights, presents, stockings, food) have nothing to do with the religious aspects. And they'll pry my turkey out of my cold dead hands.


(*twitches, edits thread title* "Who's" means "who is" as in "Who's coming to dinner?" "Whose" means "belonging to who" as in "Whose donkey is this pissing on my shoe?")

[unalisaa]

I celebrate Xmas. Not Christmas. Just Xmas. I have a tree, and lights, and ornaments, and candycanes. We do stockings, and presents, and a big meal consisting mostly of dead animal and fat. It has nothing to do with any religion for us, and everything to do with family, togetherness, and love.

I realise I am being a pedantic ass, but the "X" in Xmas is not the mathematical X of an unknown factor, but the Chi of the Greek Χριστός, so you're still referencing Christ.
I guess it could be argued that if the majority of people perceive it as an unknown factor x, the Christian connotation is about as relevant as the fact that we put glass baubles on the tree because they were originally meant to symbolise fruit, but please excuse me while I go pick this basket of nits; it's been lying around the house for ages now.


For most teachers, probably something cover-your-ass-ish. Like, "For many people, it's a religious holiday. For others, it's just about family and togetherness and good food. If your family celebrates Christmas, you should ask your parents what it means to your family... or if your family doesn't celebrate it, you can ask the parents of some of your friends who do, what it means to them." Of course, I had several teachers who were openly religious and proseletysing (sp?) types even at US public schools and would've had no problem talking about the baby Jesus and the manger and all that stuff.

I see Element Leaf's point about the general non-religious nature of the holiday, then. If a child were to ask the same question (at least when I went to kindergarten, but I assume it's the same now) here, the answer would be "It's a holiday where the birth of Jesus is celebrated. Now, your role for our Christmas play is the donkey who eats some hay out of the manger baby Jesus lies in."

[HystericalParoxysm]

Yes, you are totally being a pedantic ass, but I get your point anyway. :giggler: I mainly write it that way to differentiate it from CHRISTmas as most people understand it, because it's not a religious holiday for me whatsoever. Have fun with your nits. ;)

[appelsapgodin]

As far as I know humankind has been celebrating the shortest and longest day for ages for whatever reason was popular at that time. Good food, being together with family and friends, getting and giving out some presents. Really, what should I care why exactly? I decided I rather just enjoy it.

[Volvenom]

I'm an atheist too, but I'm beginning to see it might be easier for scandinavians. We call it Jul where I live, nothing to do with Christ at all. So I can keep calling it Jul, no problem.

I celebrate the "turning" of the sun, we close in on summer and the days gets lighter. It's so dark here, a celebration for the sun is just what I need.

I have candles, decoration and food without Christian crosses, angels or other religious artefacts. I have been doing this since I made the food for my family when I was in my teens. They went to church and I made the food. All natural for me.

[Marcos_Edson]

I realise I am being a pedantic ass, but the "X" in Xmas is not the mathematical X of an unknown factor, but the Chi of the Greek Χριστός, so you're still referencing Christ.

Really? :wtf: I always thought it was some American slang for Christmas... :lol:

[Volvenom]

I celebrate Xmas. Not Christmas. Just Xmas. I have a tree, and lights, and ornaments, and candycanes.

Do you then say it as in ex-mas? I have heard a word for it in english actually, perhaps only used in England. Don't remember it anymore. It means the same as the sun turning in winter I believe: winter solstice :) Perfectly usable word I think.

Now on to my caramel pudding for 1.day of Jul :) Enjoy

[HystericalParoxysm]

Yes, it's pronounced like "Ex-Mess". The solstice is different (happens earlier IIRC) and is a religious holiday for some. Not something I observe.

[Mistermook]

I'm a big giant atheist, and I don't have problem with celebrating Xmas. I don't have a problem with others trying to lay claim to it really - just so everyone knows where they can go and what they can do to themselves if they intend to stop me or something. I even attended a Catholic mass last night (because I was invited and because I'm not intimidated by peoples mythology) and felt not an ounce of guilt over it. Because Xmas is about other people, I spend plenty of my life sequestered with you yahoos but the holidays are about getting about and being with people you care about regardless of their beliefs.

[kattenijin]

The term "Xmas" instead of "Christmas" is Greek in origin. The word for Christ in Greek is "Xristos." During the sixteenth century, Europeans began using the first initial of Christ's name...the "X" of "Xristos"...in place of the word "Christ" as a shorthand version of the word "Christmas." Although early Christians understood that the "X" was simply another form for the name of Jesus Christ, later Christians, who had no knowledge of the Greek language, mistook "Xmas" as a sign of disrespect.

[whiterider]

I find this argument a little silly, to be honest. Of course for some Christmas is a religious holiday, and rightly so - for others it has no such meaning, so why the discussion? It seems that the only thing which connects a non-religious Christmas celebration with a religious one is the name - and, well, we use terminology which arose from religious tradition all the time and never worry about it. Why is Christmas any more controversial than, say, "an exodus of cockroaches", or eating flatbread?

[unalisaa]

I find this argument a little silly, to be honest. Of course for some Christmas is a religious holiday, and rightly so - for others it has no such meaning, so why the discussion? It seems that the only thing which connects a non-religious Christmas celebration with a religious one is the name - and, well, we use terminology which arose from religious tradition all the time and never worry about it. Why is Christmas any more controversial than, say, "an exodus of cockroaches", or eating flatbread?
It's more "controversial" because you aren't just likening an event to one traditionally considered religious in nature, but you're actually re-purposing actions that are highly symbolic in nature. The discussion is interesting because it explores to what extent symbolism is still important: why are some people comfortable with performing ancient pagan rites despite not identifying as pagan, but uncomfortable with more recent Christian rites? Is the symbolism irrelevant if you don't know about it? Is it hypocritical to renounce a certain religion, but celebrate its holidays by ignoring the religious background of some of its traditions?
It all boils down to whether or not it's acceptable to take something that's very important to or originates from a group/religion/worldview and fit it to your own preferences.

The term "Xmas" instead of "Christmas" is Greek in origin. The word for Christ in Greek is "Xristos." During the sixteenth century, Europeans began using the first initial of Christ's name...the "X" of "Xristos"...in place of the word "Christ" as a shorthand version of the word "Christmas." Although early Christians understood that the "X" was simply another form for the name of Jesus Christ, later Christians, who had no knowledge of the Greek language, mistook "Xmas" as a sign of disrespect.
Yes.
There was a rumour in third grade at my school that the X was actually standing for a naughty word, and that Americans only called Christmas that if they intended to wear titillating underwear on the 24th of December.

Additionally, I find your transcription of χ as the Latin x strange. Would you pronounce that "Ksristos"? If you're going by Biblical Greek phonology, χ would make a sound like the "ch" in loch. I'd say that's closer to a "k" than a "ks" sound.

[KeiraLou]

All I did was read the sentance where you asked if Christmas should be Christian only.

NO!

It brings people together, families even. It is a day of joy. I don't believe in god, and we have one of the best days of our lives every year, not celebrating Christ but celebrating being a family unit and happy and respectful of one another. Maybe that isn't what it is about but for us non believers that probably what it is about. It means something different for everyone.

[kattenijin]

If Christians wish to truely,properly celebrate Christ's birthday, it should be celebrated in March, when his "true" birthdate most likely was. Of course, this interfers with the celebration of Easter, but this is another holiday that was "designed" to occour at a time of year that it didn't actually happen in. (Spring=rebirth in ritual terms)

[Volvenom]

I don't feel guilty for "taking" a christian holiday and making it secular. After all that was what the catholic church did as a rule. They made religious sites and festival of the people in the new lands they came to, into christian sites and holidays. They did that to slowly turning people into christian. I have said this before, and I think we've had this discussion before somewhere.

Some might argue that they are just taking back a celebration to the sun from the church. I'm an athiest and think it's ok to celebrate the sun, as I said.

I even attended a Catholic mass last night (because I was invited and because I'm not intimidated by peoples mythology) and felt not an ounce of guilt over it.

I wouldn't feel guilty, I would just feel uncomfortable. It would have much to do with the people I'm with. Since it's a long time ago I was in a church, I wouldn't know what to do. It's actually complicated actions, if you think about a wedding. Then I haven't said anything about the stupid words I have to endure. :p

[Mistermook]

Oh it was fairly uncomfortable I suppose, if I'd let it be. But I have been to stranger and less familiar services than catholic ones in years past. I wasn't raised catholic, for instance. It's all just me gawking at the ritual and spectacle, at least this one had all the old people with their clothes on and didn't want me smoking unknown substances for it.

The people were nice enough and they didn't all stop what they were doing to glare when I sat back down so as to not accept the cannibal parts, and we sang some nice Xmas songs and had good food later. That's as good a night as it gets I guess. No rattlesnakes or speaking in tongues? Awesome.

[fakepeeps7]

It's a holiday for whoever wants to celebrate it, however they want to celebrate it. It's not a strictly Christian holiday (and those who say it is really need to brush up on their history).

[smorbie1]

As a Christian, I love Christmas. It is not the date, though I did see a special on the Catholic channel that had some good scientific evidence that it was. I don't care; it's the idea of celebrating the birth of the Saviour.

However, every year as the time approaches, my defenses go up. That attacks come fast and furious. So, I would like to say this. Celebrate whatever you want to celebrate, I don't care if it's the winter solstice or whatever. Just allow me, one freaking year, to not have to fight for the right to say "Merry Christmas". Just allow me to celebrate an event that is crucially important to me. And let me do it in peace. I don't want to be told I can't use the word Christmas or that it's not historically accurate or whatever. I just want to enjoy it.

This may sound defensive but over here in the states it has become a big issue and I hate that. Most people here actually celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday (according to polls) but we are constantly told how wrong and bigoted and evil we are for doing so.

And for cultural and historical arguments over why and how the date was chosen, can't we just let it be? It is what it is. If it's a social evolution thing or a blend or cultures (which is certainly is), do we really have to deconstruct it and tear it down to the very first celebration of any kind on any day? We don't do that with any other date, just Christmas. My late beloved sweetheart was born on New Year's. Does that mean his birthday shouldn't be celebrated because it happens to be the first day of the year and that date's already taken? I was born on Mozart and Lewis Carroll's birthday. Does that mean I shouldn't celebrate my birthday as my own?

If I were born on the winter solstice, wouldn't I be entitled to celebrate my birthday as my birthday or would I have to just call the day solstice and not my birthday? And if I didn't know my birthday, couldn't my family just pick an arbitrary day to celebrate it?

[RoseCity]

This may sound defensive but over here in the states it has become a big issue and I hate that. Most people here actually celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday (according to polls) but we are constantly told how wrong and bigoted and evil we are for doing so.
I live in the states and I don't notice this at all, but I also don't watch FOX news.

[smorbie1]

Can't believe you've never noticed. Don't you hear all the commercials about celebrating holiday? What about businesses that aren't allowed to have Christmas trees? The last couple of years I taught college I got memos from admin telling me not to mention Christmas to my students. The hospital I worked at wasn't allowed to have ANY decorations at all (we threatened to get a Festivus pole just for spite). We weren't allowed to send cards to each other or wish anyone a merry Christmas. My grandchildren couldn't have a Christmas party at school and students bringing snowman or santa cookies for the class were told not to do that.
They have also been told they couldn't wear Christmas outfits or sweaters (no they don't wear uniforms).
It has nothing to do with Fox news; it's experience and observation.

[unalisaa]

What you're describing is a sort of backlash against so-called Christian Privilege that has been happening in the US the past couple of years. Essentially, its purpose is to keep religion largely out of otherwise secular establishments. As a store, it is not in your interest to alienate non-Christian customers by pushing Christmas on them. I cannot find the original sources of the list, but there is a list of examples of Christian Privilege (http://ubastet.dreamwidth.org/2832.html), some points of which might serve to illustrate why wearing Christmas-themed sweaters is frowned upon.
For the record, not all of the points in the above linked article are necessarily true for everyone, but it serves for interesting food for thought.

1. It is likely that state and federal holidays coincide with my religious practices, thereby having little to no impact on my job and/or education.
[...]
3. I can be sure to hear music on the radio and watch specials on television that celebrate the holidays of my religion. [...]
7. I can share my holiday greetings without being fully conscious of how it may impact those who do not celebrate the same holidays. I can also be sure that people are knowledgeable about the holidays of my religion and will greet me with the appropriate holiday greeting (e.g., Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, etc.).
[...]
16. It is likely that I can find items to buy that represent my religious norms and holidays with relative ease (e.g., food, decorations, greeting cards, etc.)
[...]
26. I can talk about my religion, even proselytize, and be characterized as "sharing the word," instead of imposing my ideas on others or distributing "propaganda."
[...]
39. My religion and religious holidays are so completely "normal" that, in many ways, they may appear to no longer have any religious significance at all.
[...]
40. My religious holidays, having been legally constructed as "secular," can be openly practiced in public institutional settings without a thought given to the violation of the separation of religion and state.
It's being fought against, and I don't think the idea is to stomp on Christians, but rather to avoid having anyone have a religion they aren't a part of forced upon them.

This may sound defensive but over here in the states it has become a big issue and I hate that. Most people here actually celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday (according to polls) but we are constantly told how wrong and bigoted and evil we are for doing so.
It's not evil or bigoted in any way to celebrate a holiday that doesn't harm anyone. But expecting others to make room for one's particular holiday at the expense of theirs might have unfortunate implications. Much like someone who has their birthday on New Year's Eve would be considered rude if they turned up at a NYE party and expected people to celebrate their birthday instead. Strangers just don't care about someone else's celebration.

Admittedly, America seems to have taken this, as so much else (I bow down to show all you Merkins my ethnically superior buttcheeks) in a strange direction. Not allowing Christmas cookies? My friend brought candy to school on the day after the last day of Eid, but no one was expecting anyone to honour the five pillars of Islam. It was just delicious lemon-flavoured gelatin-based edibles.

[RoseCity]

Can't believe you've never noticed. Don't you hear all the commercials about celebrating holiday? What about businesses that aren't allowed to have Christmas trees? The last couple of years I taught college I got memos from admin telling me not to mention Christmas to my students. The hospital I worked at wasn't allowed to have ANY decorations at all (we threatened to get a Festivus pole just for spite). We weren't allowed to send cards to each other or wish anyone a merry Christmas. My grandchildren couldn't have a Christmas party at school and students bringing snowman or santa cookies for the class were told not to do that.
They have also been told they couldn't wear Christmas outfits or sweaters (no they don't wear uniforms).
It has nothing to do with Fox news; it's experience and observation.
I see where you're coming from now. I guess I didn't notice because my town still puts lights on pine trees and snowflake lights on main street and these weird billboard light pictures on the green. My husband's work still has a big Christmas party and Christmas decorations, but I suppose the job or the town could just as easily turn around and say they aren't going to do those things anymore. I think each business or government entity decides what their holiday policy is. You can celebrate any way you want in your own home.
I used to hate the way my last job celebrated Christmas - it was really shoved down your throat, and if you didn't want to participate, you became the office grinch. I went along because that's what most of the people wanted but I would've loved a no-Christmas policy.

[Oaktree]

@unalisaa

26. I can talk about my religion, even proselytize, and be characterized as "sharing the word," instead of imposing my ideas on others or distributing "propaganda."

This is the only one of the points you listed that I don't see so much. It could just be the area that I live in, but everyone that I talk to is annoyed at proselytizing, even if they themselves happen to be religious. I honestly don't know why people even bother, considering the overwhelmingly negative attitude toward proselytizing where I live. Though I can see how this might apply in the South, for example. Other than that though, I completely agree with your post.

[paksetti]

I work at a salon that has mainly older patrons, and I can't tell you how many times a coworker or I have been dragged into a conversation about religion by a client. I don't mind them telling me a little about themselves, but saying things like "It's not too late to save you too, dear!" is a bit annoying.


Then again, I do live in Southern Baptist country... so I guess that comes with the territory.

[vhanster]

Seems to me that Christmas is becoming more and more like a commercial event that encourage people to spend more money than necessary, rather than a religious event, that I don't think the real reason of celebrating Christnas really matters anymore.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

all i really have to say is that if you need a holiday... a consumer holiday, at that, to "bring your family together", chances are, the bonds were not that strong to begin with.
"what? presents?? oooo get me this and this and this.." =/= love. now id say the people who celebrate without presents, giving or receiving, without decorations (you know big gaudy blow-up santas on motorcycles), who really just focus on their family and friends and doing what they can to make the situation(s) right for everyone, yes, including themselves....i'd say those people are further on the "right" track than the rest of the country. the exception being the people who dont buy into this crap at all, and kudos to them.

but then, i really do not like christmas.
people say it promotes forgiveness, generosity, kindness.... but take away the presents? you just have thanksgiving again. i would be, "the office grinch", in any and every workplace scenario. unless you run a daycare center, or something, christmas has no reason at all to be in the workplace.

and why do people need to excuse good will, or define a source for it, when people could try to actually be kind, generous, forgiving etc ALL year around? must we be so halfassed in our efforts as to designate a specific 'time of the year' for it?

christmas, i think, has evolved into the one other time a year when you can get material goods for your behavior toward others. so, of course, people are on their best behavior. but does that make them good? no! it makes them greedy. like the rest of the country. *end rant.*

that being said...
christmas is pretty much an open holiday. long as youve got some cash, its yours if you want it.

[malfoya]

I'm an atheist too, but I'm beginning to see it might be easier for scandinavians. We call it Jul where I live, nothing to do with Christ at all. So I can keep calling it Jul, no problem.

I'm an atheist and Scandinavian too, hehe. And btw, "jul" does actually come from an old norse word that meant to celebrate the birth of christ. Anyway.. for us it will just be traditions as most of us comes from christian generations. Still doesn't mean we have to be "anything" to celebrate it. Traditions change through almost every generation, and right now we are at a part of the tradition were it's about the family, food, presents (capitalism) and we have even gotten new christmas songs that doesn't include Jesus. Traditions change to fit the living generation :) With us there's no christmas cribs or crosses... and I mostly play christmas songs like "Last Christmas" or "All I want for christmas" that is about loving someone.

All in all christmas is about loving those around you, and spending time with them. No matter who invented the celebration it makes a lot of people happy:) There's no one who "owns" it or can claim it as their own these days..

[AlexandraSpears]

We do not keep Christmas because it's a pagan holiday.

Also the very name Christmas=Christ-Mass=death of Christ. What is so merry about that?

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html

[unalisaa]

Where do you people get your facts? Mass references the Catholic High Mass, which is simply a church service. These are technically celebrations, and thus "Christmas" is a celebration of Christ.
"Jul" has two possible origins, the most likely of which in my opinion is the Proto-Germanic "jeχwula"*, a cross between the words for "wheel" and "year", but neither have anything to do with Christ.

Yes, Christmas has pagan roots. If we dig deep enough, all holidays have. The Abrahamic religions have all existed for a far shorter time than people in general have. However, it is nowadays primarily associated with and primarily (out-of-ass-fact-pulling! This is merely a personal observation) celebrated by Christians. The people we see adopting and adapting Christmas are not pagans, they are agnostics and atheists and half-assed Christians.
Is it relevant to state again and again that Christmas used to be pagan? I don't know, but it appears to me to be like repeating that the word "artificial" used to mean "of or belonging to art". It may be true, but it doesn't change how people use it today and it certainly doesn't change any objections one might have to a further shift.

*Also because the alternative Indo-European root in my dictionary doesn't give any hits on Google.

[kattenijin]

Is it relevant to state again and again that Christmas used to be pagan?
I can only speak for myself, but whenever I get sucked into one of those "return Christmas to Christians" conversations, invariably the person who wants to know why I want to "take their holiday away" has no clue as to how the traditions they consider part of the holiday came to be. Its mostly a "wait! wut?!!" disbelief that the holiday didn't always have wreaths, trees, holly/ivy/misletoe, caroling, etc. Most Christians also have no idea of the "real" story and evolution of their own religion; things have "always" been the way they are now.

Why? because... ...and half-assed Christians.

They can't seem to accept that the "spirit of the season" was around long before thier religion was, and that it belongs to everyone, not just them.

[smorbie1]

I don't want to "return Christmas to Christians". I just want the same freedom to enjoy the day as other people.

[Volvenom]

What you're describing is a sort of backlash against so-called Christian Privilege that has been happening in the US the past couple of years. Essentially, its purpose is to keep religion largely out of otherwise secular establishments. As a store, it is not in your interest to alienate non-Christian customers by pushing Christmas on them.


I would so much want this to happen in my town. In my store we have to use red xmas sweaters, red nose and a santa hat. We look absolutely rediculous. Some of my collegues hates it. I'm an athiest and recent them pushing a religious outfit on me.

Usually I don't like all this american influence everywhere but I would have nothing against that.

They can't seem to accept that the "spirit of the season" was around long before thier religion was, and that it belongs to everyone, not just them.

:gjob:

[smorbie1]

I would so much want this to happen in my town. In my store we have to use red xmas sweaters, red nose and a santa hat. We look absolutely rediculous. Some of my collegues hates it. I'm an athiest and recent them pushing a religious outfit on me.

Usually I don't like all this american influence everywhere but I would have nothing against that.

Really don't think a red nose and santa hat are Christian symbols. They are symbols of Christmas though. I'm sorry if you feel they are pushed on you. I would just look at them as a uniform I had to wear. No one likes them, but they come with the job.

[Volvenom]

Really don't think a red nose and santa hat are Christian symbols. They are symbols of Christmas though. I'm sorry if you feel they are pushed on you. I would just look at them as a uniform I had to wear. No one likes them, but they come with the job.

No they do not come with the job! It's not worn all year round. Santa as in Santa Claus or what!!

I guess you can see what I think about this lol.

[Robodl95]

Throughout this entire thread the thing that caught my attention the most was the sweater issue that Smorbie mentioned. First off what Christmas sweaters do you see that have ANYTHING to do with the real holiday? Snowflakes? Reindeer? Christmas Trees? Has anyone ever seen a sweater with the baby Jesus on it? I'm pretty sure that's infringement on freedom of religion. Are they going to tell Jewish kids that they can't wear a kippah or a Muslim a scarf/veil? They would be sued! Sweaters don't even have anything to do with Christianity!

They can't seem to accept that the "spirit of the season" was around long before thier religion was, and that it belongs to everyone, not just them.

Do I have to point out again that none of that stuff really has anything to do with Christianity! If you really feel that the season belongs to everyone then why are you bringing this up? You're contradicting yourself.

[kattenijin]

Do I have to point out again that none of that stuff really has anything to do with Christianity! If you really feel that the season belongs to everyone then why are you bringing this up? You're contradicting yourself.

What "that stuff" has to do with Christiananity is that its the Christians who are complaining that "thier" holiday is being taken away. Showing them that it isn't, and never has been exclusively theirs involves showing where the traditions came from in the first place; the average Christian has no idea of why they celebrate the holiday the way they do.

Christians bitch about "seperation of church and state" when the law dictates that healthcare plans are required to provide for contraception and abortion; yet refuse to see why the same rules don't allow for placement of a creche on public property, and calling it "Winter Vacation" rather than "Christmas Vacation".

I agree that calling the sweater/nose/hat outfit "religious" is incorrect, but they are symbols of the holiday and would become so if the season was made exclusively Christian. There is no contradiction in telling Christians that the season belongs to everyone, and that they can't claim it solely for themselves. What is it exactly you find contradictory?

[emilymarie0201]

I went to a Catholic College and in turn we had to take religion classes in order to graduate, but at the same time, it was a liberal arts college, so we needed to classes like music, philosophy and things of that nature. I had a class my sophomore year, I've never forget it, "Weird Traditions, the history of Santa & other weird things", it's the actual name. We had to read countless books, and write tons of papers on the History of Christmas, here's what I remember from the class.

The Saturnalia festival in Rome is where all of this stuff started, well, at least from the multiple books I've read, so I'll start there. This festival was to celebrate their God, they drank, had orgy's, ate and no one worked (there's a lot more, but that's more of the general stuff), a lot of the Christmas traditions evolved from that (i.e Christmas Trees). During the winter, the only living plant was the "Christmas Tree" so the Romans brought them inside their houses and decorated the streets with these trees as a hopeful sign of "Life", they used candles to decorate the tree in order to show "Light" in dark times.

The idea of what Santa's outfit looked like came from the poem, "The Night Before Christmas".

Why does Santa wear red & white? Because he was used by Coca Cola during Christmas time, you remember those commercials right? I'm totally not making this up.

Santa's reindeer? A Norwegian folk lore about a God who used to drive a carriage with flying horses.

Santa's elves and the north pole? Also came from another Christmas poem during the 1900's.

Christmas traditions, like Christmas carols, Christmas cards, what we eat, etc etc? Charles Dicken's "A Christmas Story". That story is part of the MAIN reason why we celebrate Christmas the way we do, where did the idea came from? In order to make Christmas a more family orientated Holiday, because the idea of Christmas, coming from traditions of the Saturnalia, (which only celebrated ONE of their many Gods) was savage. Like I mentioned before, it was about drinking, having sex, and eating for about 2 weeks our time, it was NOT a child's holiday.

The St. Nicholas, was not a Saint, he has been portrayed as many things, a Saint is not one of them, not even close. If anything, the closet legend was he was the protector of men who went out to sea, to protect them.

Jesus Christ being born on Christmas is, excuse me, not true. During the time of Christianity, they needed a day to celebrate Jesus's life, they used December 25th, which was a Pagan Holiday, to do so. Jesus was born sometime in the summer, NOT in the winter. He was not born in a manager, he was born in a cave.

The idea of Christmas is a combination of many MANY different beliefs, from MANY parts of the world. The idea of Jesus being born on it, was because of early Christianity, which is why it has turned into a "Christian Holiday", this is far from the truth.

So in turn, Christmas is everyones holiday, whether you're Agnostic, Atheist, Jewish, Christian or Catholic. This holiday should not be about the birth of Christ, but to be what it was originally intended for, to celebrate life and in the dark times of winter.

[Robodl95]

What "that stuff" has to do with Christiananity is that its the Christians who are complaining that "thier" holiday is being taken away. Showing them that it isn't, and never has been exclusively theirs involves showing where the traditions came from in the first place; the average Christian has no idea of why they celebrate the holiday the way they do.

Christians bitch about "seperation of church and state" when the law dictates that healthcare plans are required to provide for contraception and abortion; yet refuse to see why the same rules don't allow for placement of a creche on public property, and calling it "Winter Vacation" rather than "Christmas Vacation".

I agree that calling the sweater/nose/hat outfit "religious" is incorrect, but they are symbols of the holiday and would become so if the season was made exclusively Christian. There is no contradiction in telling Christians that the season belongs to everyone, and that they can't claim it solely for themselves. What is it exactly you find contradictory?

Not all public property is owned by the government...

Basically what you're saying is "It's everyone's holiday but just remember we started it!" It seems childish. I don't understand how Christians are "claiming the season for themselves", most people are fully aware that people celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and several other holidays in the same time period (though to be honest pagans never cross my mind because I don't know any and I don't think there are a large amount in my area). The majority of the population is Christian and so it makes sense that Christian holidays are treated with more... idk is significance the right word? It's like how Jewish holidays would be treated bigger in Israel and Muslim holidays in the Muslim world and so on.

[the_sims_3Gamer]

unalisaa YOUR A FREAKING IDIOT I MEAN CHRISTMAS IS ABOUT FORMING WITH YOUR FAMILY AND CELEBRATING THAT HOILDAY THAT DAY I MEAN SERIOUSLY CHRISTmas CHRIST is is christmas so we need to celebrate CHRIST

[unalisaa]

unalisaa YOUR A FREAKING IDIOT I MEAN CHRISTMAS IS ABOUT FORMING WITH YOUR FAMILY AND CELEBRATING THAT HOILDAY THAT DAY I MEAN SERIOUSLY CHRISTmas CHRIST is is christmas so we need to celebrate CHRIST
FINALLY I FEEL WELCOMED AT MTS
You know, people ask me every day: "Unalisaa, how did you get such amazing abs? what really makes you tick?" And the answer is simple like you won't believe it: The abominator cooks your noodles while it massages your abdominal muscles I like feeling superior at all times.

[dreaming4dreams]

Well I'm not a Christian but I still celebrate Christmas just because I have grown up with the holiday and believe it is a holiday to spend with your family. I think Christmas is for who every celebrates it for what ever reason its thier choice.

[kattenijin]

Not all public property is owned by the government...

Basically what you're saying is "It's everyone's holiday but just remember we started it!" It seems childish.

No, I'm saying that Christians have stolen the holiday and many of its current traditions from other religions; yet seem to have conveniantly forgotten that, and get all bent out of shape when they are reminded. If you want to celebrate the birth of your messiah, do it in late March when he was born; return the Solstice celebration of the new year to its pagan roots, or leave it as a purely secular occasion.