U.K. scientists find 'scaled-down' version of solar system

[QueenScorpio_SC]

http://technology.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/UK+scientists+find+scaleddown+version+of+solar+system/News/ContentPosting.aspx?isfa=1&newsitemid=twin-solar-system&feedname=CBC-TECH-SCIENCE&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True [I don't remeber how to link...]

The age old debate: could there be life other than on earth??

[Endersgirl07]

...well, yeah, there *could* be. There always *could* be. Doesn't mean we have evidence that there is.

[davious]

Given a universe that is infinite, it stands to reason that the components required to have life (at least similar to Earth) must have been duplicated elsewhere. Surely, in all of infinite space, the right composition of rocks formed a planet with the right minerals, with the right gases to provide an atmosphere the appropriate distance away from the right kind of sun...If the universe were finite, I could see a logical reason to conclude there is no life anywhere else. But, when you are dealing with infinity, the odds of the circumstances required to provide life NEVER occurring anywhere else? Unlikely.

[Faithlove13xxx_SC]

There probably is..
It's kinda self centered to think we're the ONLY LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE.

We can hardly even comprehend how big the Universe is.
Is there intelligent life? I dunno, maybe. But probably not near enough for us to meet it in any immediate lifetime.


And it's not a religious thing... I believe in God.

If He made us, he can make all kinds of other crap. ...Um, I mean... life.?

PS
And, no offense, but just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that there is none. There's no evidence to prove life, but also none to prove the absence of life.

[spiderviveka_SC]

Of course there is life other than us.

How arrogant can we be? Especially to think that we are the superior species of the universe. We are but mere flickering sparks in the vastness of the universe, extinguished but a shallow hush of breath.

[Faithlove13xxx_SC]

Well are certainly a poetic lifeform.

[spiderviveka_SC]

Yes we are, its one of our redeeming qualities. It helps make up for all of our blatant violence and disregard for our environment and fellow beings.

[Endersgirl07]

There's no reason to believe "of course there is" or "of course there isn't". We have no idea. Why is it arrogant to assume we may be (MAY BE) the only life in the universe? Not that we're even to be concerned with the universe- if life occurs hundreds of galaxies away, we won't know about it anytime soon, so let's just think within a range of a few galaxies. There are hundreds of millions of conditions that have to occur all at the same place and the same time in order to support life as we know it. The chances are fairly small, even for such a vast universe (which I highly doubt is infinite). And if it's true that we are fragile specks of dust that exist for a blip of time in this vast web of space (which we are and do- less than that by universal standards) then who's to say that if there is other life, it hasn't already been extinguished, either by its own folly or a cosmic event? Or it isn't to exist several billion years in the future when our planet is gone? For life-sustaining conditions to occur at the same time as us on a hundreds-of-trillions-of-years timeline, and in such a near place that we have reason to be concerned with it at all, is pretty improbable.

[spiderviveka_SC]

Well thats a very nihilistic perspective.

Who is to say that its improbable when space is apparently endless, an idea which we humans can't really cope with too well.

I think its highly probable. Lots of scientists and theorists agree with me. Can we truly know if there is life out there? No. We won't know that for a fact until some aliens sneak up and bite us on the ass. But logic seems to dictate, that in the vastness of space, we are most likely not alone.

Of course, this also will go into ones definition of life, as it is likely that alien life is nothing like life as we know it. Nothing that we can even conceive, but then again, they might be our mirror image. Who really knows? I don't, but I certainly enjoy thinking about what might be out there.

[Faithlove13xxx_SC]

I think by the time this Planet dies, if humanity hasn;t destroyed itself by then... we will have the technology to travel to other inhabitable planets. I honestly don't think the end of Earth will mean the end of humanity in and of itself.

There are other things, but not really the destruction of Earth. It's billions of years away...

[robokitty]

The age old debate: could there be life other than on earth??

I sure hope so! As an atheist, believing in the existence of extra-terrestrial life is one of the only inspiring sources of mysticism I have!!! :lol:

[QueenScorpio_SC]

My thinking is along the same lines, I find it impossible that Earth is the only planet that harbors life and this article adds to my belief, however there are those that beg to differ, a pastor once said to me that the bible only talks of earth and man therefore there cannot be anything else other than that which exists on Earth...then again no religious text (as far as I know) includes every single creature to ever grace the face of the earth in its' text so maybe the bible (et al.) simply left out the bit about aliens...

[LOZOTRON]

Given a universe that is infinite, it stands to reason that the components required to have life (at least similar to Earth) must have been duplicated elsewhere. Surely, in all of infinite space, the right composition of rocks formed a planet with the right minerals, with the right gases to provide an atmosphere the appropriate distance away from the right kind of sun...If the universe were finite, I could see a logical reason to conclude there is no life anywhere else. But, when you are dealing with infinity, the odds of the circumstances required to provide life NEVER occurring anywhere else? Unlikely.

exactly, there is an infinite amount of chances that more life exists beyond us, if the universe is infinite.

meaning there's an infinite amount of chances that there is a solar system out there that developed exactly the same time as ours, that has a planet exactly the same distance away from its sun as ours, that had a comet crash into it exactly the same time as ours did, bringing life onto the planet. therefore meaning we could have a carbon copy of ourselves somewhere in space in an alternate solar system.

but then again our universe could be inside a box / marble / or mould behind someone's stove even.
which raises the question.. whats outside the box?

i've had plenty of these conversations, and get baffled every time.
:idea:

[Buzz2112]

There's no way we're the only sentient beings in this universe.

[davious]

but then again our universe could be inside a box / marble / or mould behind someone's stove even.
which raises the question.. whats outside the box?


If that is the case, what is outside of the box would have to be God, or at least as far as our understanding goes.

To create a box, you have to exist outside of the box.
To create the universe, you would have to exist outside of the universe.

To create a box, you would have to have existed prior to the box's creation.
To create a universe, you would have to have existed prior to the universe's creation.

To create a box, you have to know already what makes a box a box. There must be previous knowledge of a box. IE, boxes are "intelligently designed".
To create a universe, you have to know already what makes a universe a universe. There must be previous knowledge of a universe.
IE, the universe is "intelligently designed".

So, what exists outside of the universe, must have existed prior to the universe, and must have had pre-knowledge of universes, in order to create it properly? Sounds an awful lot like God to me.

On the other hand, if, in our infinite universe, Earth truly stands alone as a lifebearer, does that not essentially prove God's existence? If only one planet out of infinity bears life, doesn't that imply that non-life is the proper order of the universe, and that Earth and its life is a statistical anomaly that cannot be explained? Something that occurs only once in all of infinity must be unique. Yet, the circumstances required to create a fully life sustaining environment would have to be repeated, mathematically many times over, given an infinite universe. If, Earth, despite the statistical impossibility, stands alone, something must set us completely apart from the rest of the universe, that cannot be explained through science...that leaves life having to have been intentionally created. Intentional creation requires an intelligent creator, intentionally defying the natural order of the universe. That means God.

[Faithlove13xxx_SC]

I don;'t think our life alone proves or disproves God.

There;s not a logical way to prove God. How boring would that be?

[Endersgirl07]

The universe isn't infinite. Thought I should clear this up. If we are correct on our approximations of the time of the big bang, the universe is a few billion lightyears in diameter, and the second law of thermodynamics makes the universe's timeline finite as well. So... there are many chances, perhaps, that life exists NOW somewhere else in the universe, but definitely not infinite.
I don't think my perspective is nihilistic. Just realistic. I think it's a little romantic to say that we are but dust in the universe that exists for but a breath of time, but that that same truth doesn't apply to other potential life- and in a universal lifetime, how likely is it that two blips of life, which require a rare and fortunate set of conditions that even then must count on chance to develop life forms, are going to occur in the same blip of time? Sure, at some time and some place there is most likely life in the universe other than the life forms on Earth. It's probably not near enough to be contacted, and it's probably not around at the same time as us- if it is either/both of those, it's likely the life forms are not sentient or intelligent at an animal, much less human, level. Our "aliens" are most likely to be one-celled (or one unit of something if they aren't cellular) organisms.
Just because there are some scientists who agree, doesn't mean they all agree. That's just an argument from authority.

[leenetje]

i think that life somewhere else in the universe excists. but considering that there are bacteria that die from inhaling oxigen it isn't 100 % sure that all inteligent life acts and talks just like us. for all we know they coud all be blu and talk a simlish like language, but they still would be intelligent lifeforms (at least to me)

[LOZOTRON]

endersgirl: you cannot be dead certain by saying the universe isn't infinite. it's forever expanding (so they say). and they say it will continue expanding forever - but it is the 'unknown'. most terrestrial facts are approximations / guess work.
Just because there are some scientists who agree, doesn't mean they all agree.
.. because they all have different opinions. nothings certain.
that was quite a logical response you gave. but if you think outside the box we could quite rightly be in 'The Matrix' laughable? maybe, but anything goes. we don't know how the universe started (if it ever had a beginning..) or why.

davious:
If that is the case, what is outside of the box would have to be God, or at least as far as our understanding goes. could be.. if so which God. there's so many of them. LOL. tbh, i don't believe in any religious God's. but a higher being possibly yeah. because in your words "To create a box, you have to exist outside of the box."

[Endersgirl07]

endersgirl: you cannot be dead certain by saying the universe isn't infinite. it's forever expanding (so they say). and they say it will continue expanding forever - but it is the 'unknown'. most terrestrial facts are approximations / guess work.

You're right, we can't be dead certain of anything on the scale of the universe. And it is supposedly still expanding and they think it will continue to. But if the universe's own physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics) apply to it as a whole (I hope they do!) then eventually this giant exploding mass of matter will run out of useful energy and disperse into pretty much nothing. It will take a very, VERY long time- so long we can't comprehend it- but it'll happen at some point.

And thinking outside the box is nice... but I will stick to Occam's Razor as often as I can ^_^

[Me_Myself_I]

"I don't think our life alone proves or disproves God."

I'm a Christan, and I, personally, believe that there is no way that there can be any intelligent life besides us (there could be alien animals, I suppose). I think the Bible supports that belief: if there was other intelligent life in the universe, would God just say to himself "Well...these people--who have feelings and families and likes and dislikes--are not as important as human beings." No, I think not.

There would have to be a different version of the Bible for each species, and a "chosen race" among each species. I highly doubt that would work out very well.

It does, perhaps, seem arrogant to believe that we are the only intelligent beings in such a vast universe...but I'm sure God has a reason.

Just my two cents.

[kustirider2]

i seriously belive in aliens like in torchwood/dr who are out there somewhere :lol:

[robokitty]

If that is the case, what is outside of the box would have to be God, or at least as far as our understanding goes.

To create a box, you have to exist outside of the box.
To create the universe, you would have to exist outside of the universe.

To create a box, you would have to have existed prior to the box's creation.
To create a universe, you would have to have existed prior to the universe's creation.

To create a box, you have to know already what makes a box a box. There must be previous knowledge of a box. IE, boxes are "intelligently designed".
To create a universe, you have to know already what makes a universe a universe. There must be previous knowledge of a universe.
IE, the universe is "intelligently designed".

So, what exists outside of the universe, must have existed prior to the universe, and must have had pre-knowledge of universes, in order to create it properly? Sounds an awful lot like God to me.


So, what exists outside of the "God" box? :D


On the other hand, if, in our infinite universe, Earth truly stands alone as a lifebearer, does that not essentially prove God's existence? If only one planet out of infinity bears life, doesn't that imply that non-life is the proper order of the universe, and that Earth and its life is a statistical anomaly that cannot be explained? Something that occurs only once in all of infinity must be unique. Yet, the circumstances required to create a fully life sustaining environment would have to be repeated, mathematically many times over, given an infinite universe. If, Earth, despite the statistical impossibility, stands alone, something must set us completely apart from the rest of the universe, that cannot be explained through science...that leaves life having to have been intentionally created. Intentional creation requires an intelligent creator, intentionally defying the natural order of the universe. That means God.

The difficulty with this is that even if we explore an enormous portion of the universe, in an infinite universe that segment we explore is insignificantly small, so that we can never truly know if we are the only life form in an infinite universe.

Btw, I liked reading your musings, even if I don't believe in a god. It's nice to hear some different POVs.

[davious]

If you believe in God, the answer to what is outside of the "God" box, would of course, be absolutely nothing. There is no box.

I do agree that we can never explore the universe in such a way to prove that we are all alone...All it takes is to find one other planet with evidence of life to prove we are not alone, but to prove we are alone would require exploring ALL there is to explore. Achieving that will always be beyond our capabilities as humans. Its a completely hypothetical situation, that cannot be proved. Of course, God can exist perfectly well if there is life on other planets, its just that if we were alone, despite science being completely against it, it would tend to prove the existence of a higher power more easily, because of the blatant disregard for the natural laws of the universe that would have to be in effect for us to be completely alone. SOMETHING has to be causing it, and it isn't us. Personally, while I doubt we will ever encounter life from other planets, its gotta be there somewhere. The set of circumstances (or something close enough) that gave Earth its lifebearing qualities MUST have occurred somewhere else as well, it just has to have. I believe that God gave us the intelligence to figure out the rules to the universe He created. As such, I have to believe in the science of it, that we are right about the nature of the universe, and if our understanding of the universe is right, there has to be life somewhere else too. God gave the intelligence to figure out mathematics, to figure out astronomy, astrophysics, etc. It is through those sciences that I come to understand how unlikely our aloneness actually is. Its more unlikely than finding a single grain of sand on a beach, leaving for twenty years, and finding the exact same grain of sand again. At least there is a finite number to the grains of sand.

[robokitty]

Achieving that will always be beyond our capabilities as humans. Its a completely hypothetical situation, that cannot be proved. Of course, God can exist perfectly well if there is life on other planets, its just that if we were alone, despite science being completely against it, it would tend to prove the existence of a higher power more easily, because of the blatant disregard for the natural laws of the universe that would have to be in effect for us to be completely alone. SOMETHING has to be causing it, and it isn't us.

I agree that in the hypothetical situation that we can prove we are the only life in an infinite universe, it would indicate that SOMETHING outside the realm of the natural laws applies soley to our little speck of the universe. But I personally wouldn't draw the conclusion of that SOMETHING being God/a god, much less in the way that people conceptualize God/gods.

Aside from that, I agree with/empathize with much of what you said.

[spiderviveka_SC]

I'm a Christan, and I, personally, believe that there is no way that there can be any intelligent life besides us (there could be alien animals, I suppose).

Humans are animals, so by that definition, there could be alien animals that are as or more intelligent than ourselves.


I think the Bible supports that belief: if there was other intelligent life in the universe, would God just say to himself "Well...these people--who have feelings and families and likes and dislikes--are not as important as human beings." No, I think not.

Wouldn't it be more rational to think that perhaps god had more than one little misguided art project? That there is more to its imagination than this futile failure that is humanity?

Of course, I don't believe in god. I find the whole thing to be lacking in basic logic. For instance, the classic question of, if god created us, then who created it?

There would have to be a different version of the Bible for each species, and a "chosen race" among each species. I highly doubt that would work out very well.

I try hard to be respectful of religion. I really do. But this "chosen race" nonsense is just ridiculous. If there was a chosen race, hypothetically, I would have to think that it would probably be some sort of insect or bacteria. Or cats, or rats, or something that doesn't commit mass atrocities upon other members of its species. Or torture other creatures for the fun of it, like humans often do. Or destroy their environment.

As for different versions of the bible. Perhaps the aliens have evolved to the point where they no longer need religion, that they can explain the questions of life through logic and scientific deduction.

At least thats what I would like to think. In my opinion, religion causes more harm than it does good. Remember the crusades? That was just one bloody chapter in the history of christianity, which is only one of the major religions in the world. There are equally grusome factions to all religions.

It does, perhaps, seem arrogant to believe that we are the only intelligent beings in such a vast universe...but I'm sure God has a reason.

The ability to have blind faith must be nice. Well, I think comfortable would be a better word.

Sure, its uncomfortable to realize that some day, we all die and there is nothing we can do about it. Its hard to try to comprehend the scope of suffering, cruelty, and hopelessness in the known world. To think that we are such small little nothings in the scope of the universe. Its scary really, but I sleep well at night, because I am confident that it is the truth.

I don't depend on faith, I depend on logic and reasoning. So, naturally, in my opinion, it is most likely that there is intelligent, alien life out there.

[Faithlove13xxx_SC]

I'm a Christian too...
Where in the Bible does it say "God made Earth have life... and made all those other galaxies just for shits and giggles" ???


And to the guy above... don't be condescending about religion..

Oooh, it must be "more comfortable" to have faith and you "depend on logic".... as if religious people are comfy little people with earmittens on that burn science books for their magical spiritual rituals.

Please... I too depend on reason and logic, and my faith is not blind... it's actually often difficult to "keep the faith".
If faith was easy, people would stuggle with it, now would they??

[spiderviveka_SC]

Good point faith.

I have studied the bible, and it never really explained where all of that even came from.

Of course, I think its hard to get an accurate interpretation of the bible, unless you are fluent in Latin and spend years studying it. Even then, its still up to a matter of opinion.

But if the hypothetical christian god does indeed exist (I admit that this is, at least in theory, a possibility) I don't understand why he would make us and only us, and throw the rest of space out there just to screw with us.

Wouldn't one little species of short lived corporeal primates get a bit boring?

[Freelancer_SC]

The way I see it, if one religion was the truth, the way they all claim to be, we'd all be following it by now. I find it's best to stick to the facts.

Anyway. Extraterrestrial life. Likely? Absolutely. Extraterrestrial intelligent life? I'd quote the Drake equation (the one that calculates the statistical probability of encountering an alien civilization), but I know Frank Drake hates how that's pretty much the only thing anyone remembers him for, so instead let's turn to biochemistry. The materials necessary to form organic amino acids are actually quite plentiful in the universe; they just need the right conditions to sustain the reactions. The conditions that existed on primordial Earth were obviously the right ones for life as we know it. Conditions on another Earth-like planet might be similar, yet with a few variations; like, for instance, on Planet ABC-123, perhaps the solvent in which these reactions take place is ammonia instead of water, like on Earth. Water makes more sense as the solvent because of its pH balance, but hey, if life wants to find a way, life will find a way. Whether or not those conditions remain thermodynamically stable long enough for complex civilizations to advance from self-replicating amino acids remains to be seen. Of course, there could be loads of intelligent life. To quote xkcd, it's just not screaming constantly in all directions on the handful of frequencies we search.

I think the scientists here are well on their way to proving their point - that our solar system is not unique. It will be an interesting study to follow.

[appelsapgodin]

The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.

- Bill Watterson

[sayyadina_SC]

The theory about a solar system like ours out there is really interesting. I don't believe in it cause I haven't seen it. I have not seen aliens either , but I say "why not?"
It would fit into my not-so-serious thoughts about parallel lives.
My "We all have a double twin in another solar system, being us but doing everything we don't do here "-theory.

After all that would explain a lot of otherwise unexplainable phenomena...

[spiderviveka_SC]

The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.

- Bill Watterson


So true, aliens would have to be insane to come here. :borg: