China the new up comming superstate?

[smulan]

What´s happening in USA? Europe and Usa falling?
Is China the new up comming superstate?

[Hinoemasim]

That's a tough call. The discrepancy between the areas of China considerable as 'modern' and the vast areas that are still largely living in third world poverty is enormous. The last earthquake underscored the daunting financial responsibility that goes with such a great geographic area and population. I honestly don't know if they can pull off modernizing the entire country without succumbing to the same pressures that broke up the Soviet Union.

[Black_Barook!]

It's not so much America and Europe failing as it is China reentering the international sphere.

[smulan]

Hinoemasim
I know. But I don´t think it´s about "modern" or "democracy" any longer for the running power elite. ( Bush has exceeded the constitution and the result is a world wide mess). It´s all about globalization and profit.

We are in the middle of a huge global finance crise, no doubt about it and it´s going to hit the avarage people in Europe and USA very hard.

[Hinoemasim]

True, and it's already affected the Asian stock markets, as well. The reason I mentioned the things I did is that the bigger the infrastructure, the greater the need for trade to support it.

[Doc Doofus]

It's America failing. In the last eight years, our dear leader merrily pissed away much of our prosperity and most of our strategic foreign policy advantage that we had eked out through sixty years of post WWII diplomacy.

Profligacy.

[1306]

I'm a bit on the fence on this. With all the controversies on the products made in China, I don't think it will become a very influential state, per se. But if you look at the stuff and services it mass produces then yes, it might become one.

[Synthesis]

I don't think there's any debate that China is a major superpower, or at the very least becoming one, from a political, economic, and military standpoint. It's certainly an economic and political superpower on par with the United States, and in time, I think it will become a very close military superpower--it's within the means of the PRC.

At the same time, I wouldn't necessarily say that the United States or European nations are loosing their place--though I suppose influence is being distributed accordingly.

[smulan]

The global power elite, Bush, a set of international politicians and other kind of leaders mainly from Europe, Japan, South Korea, Saudiarabia and Usa, who togehter created this chaos we are facing today will force us in to a complete new system. Europe have The European Union, a blueprint for The North American Union ( Mexico, USA and Canada), the purpose with these unions is to shape the new system.

In this system there will not exist any countries with sovereignety. The Lisbon Treaty that is under ratification in Europe right now means nothing else than dictatorship and policestate. So be aware. 6000 secret workinggroups in the absolute top position, non of the people in these groups can be elected by the people. Nor can they be dismissed by the people.

In Sweden we are being told that China is the country that had benefit the most from the globalization and that China can develop very fast in the future.

So I just hope the new system don´t turn out to be a neocon- chines dictatorship.

[Santje]

Every 15 years or something there is a economic depression. So its normal it doesnt go well with the economic right now. And its sure China will be important for the world economic. I think China already is a superstate. But China needs Europe and the US for its economic. So it dont scares me or something.

[kinneer_SC]

As an oversea Chinese, I am very interested in seeing what progress China would make in the future. I don't think there is any doubt that China would be a major power in the global scene although I do not think she will reach the level the US managed or eclipse the US and Europe. Instead China will probably level the playing field.

The one country I am worried about is Russia. She will dominate Europe and there is little Europe can do about it.

[kennyinbmore]

As an oversea Chinese, I am very interested in seeing what progress China would make in the future. I don't think there is any doubt that China would be a major power in the global scene although I do not think she will reach the level the US managed or eclipse the US and Europe. Instead China will probably level the playing field.

The one country I am worried about is Russia. She will dominate Europe and there is little Europe can do about it.
I don't think so. The only time Russia has truly been a world power was when it was part of the USSR. Even then their main influence was militarily not econonically. That's why the cold war pretty much bankrupted them as a nation. Financially they're not even close to Europe

[smulan]

Santje
yes thats basic, but the warnings signal was there years ago. The whole thing has been allowed to accelerate into a superbig crash. Complete unnecessary.
New thing is EU under the Lisbon Treaty and The North American Union. ( this means that we all are colonialstates under the Brittish finance empire).

[davious]

The death of American prosperity is greatly exaggerated. It only seems bad now, because it has been ridiculously high. It has been far worse than it is now, its just a matter of perspective. According to CNBC, the Dow Jones last closed at 10,365, well below its mark upwards of 11,000. So, we assume this is a financial crisis the likes of which we have never seen...However, it was only during the Bush Administration that the Dow Jones rose above 10,000 in the first place. "Our dear leader" as Doc so calls him, has been in office during the Dow Jones all-time record high, and closing at above 10,000 on the Dow still means the average was higher than any time that ever happened prior to Bush being President. So, a little perspective. Further, it should be noted, that the collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are largely the responsibility of Senate Banking committee chairman, Christopher Dodd, who was the single largest recipient of campaign contributions from the two mortgage giants, as well as John Kerry, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton, who rounded out the top four recipients, who were also on the take from Fannie and Freddie, and repeatedly attempted to block efforts to reform them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/DJIA_historical_graph_%28log%29.svg/800px-DJIA_historical_graph_%28log%29.svg.png

Our economy is still healthy. At worst, you could say it has a minor cold, it is not on its deathbed as some would have you believe. We still have the largest economy in the world.

As far as China is concerned, there is nothing that says other nations have to fall in order for China to become a major power. Militarily, China has been a superpower for quite some time already, they possess the worlds largest army, a full nuclear arsenal, and an absolutely gigantic recruiting base. However, the Chinese lack the ability to project that power somewhat. They have a massive army, but they have almost no real navy to speak of.

Economically, they still lag behind, as a significantly disproportionate amount of money only goes to Taiwan, which is entirely capitalist, however the PROC considers Taiwan to be a rogue state. If all of the PROC were as fiscally capable as Taiwan, China would most definitely be an economic superpower. Mainland China though? Iffy. They certainly have the potential to become a World superpower, and I think for the most part, they are close. I do not believe China has quite achieved that level yet, though.

[smulan]

The immediate problem right now is not China the problem is that our politicians operates behind the scenes and are lying to the people, the people are being withhold massive information about the european union and the north american union.

The people of Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty, but the EU- elite don´t accept it. If they grab USA into The North American Union it´s all over. We will have dictatorship, policestate and being trapped in a deep depression.

[Safyre420]

I would have to say America is falling a bit, mostly due to Bush. Also, the NAU is only theoretical and not likely to happen.

[davious]

If you are going to blame the current drop in the economy on Bush, are you then also going to give him credit for the highest stock average of all time too? Or are you only going to blame when things are bad, and refuse to give credit when they are good? The economy under Bush, saw record highs, yet, nobody gave his policies credit...now that those record highs are coming down slightly, his policies are completely to blame? What hypocrisy, considering it was the Democrats in congress, who were under the take from Fannie and Freddie, that blocked efforts to reform, including Barack "change" Obama. The Bush Administration tried to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Democrats blocked it, and now we are where we are. Because of Christopher Dodd, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John Kerry. Or, are you going to argue that the four largest recipients of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had nothing to gain by appeasing their mortgage masters?

[smulan]

Safyre.
Wake up. Lies being told. EU is a blueprint for the NAU.

[Safyre420]

I'm not blaming bush for the economic drop, he's a partial cause but congress is a much bigger cause of that being they're still funding his war. But I say that America is falling a bit due to Bush because of policies and the way he's handled things on a world scale, America's popularity is falling so we are losing status a bit. And again about the NAU, 1) you don't live here 2) It's theoretical. So if it is real I would like proof of it as most of the research I've done on it has come up with nothing other than it's theoretical and people are being overly paranoid.

[davious]

Just as a measuring stick, last year, the US Economy had a GDP of about $13.9 trillion dollars, making it the biggest economy in the world by a long shot. (unless you count the EU as a whole as a single economy, rather than as individual countries, in which case the US would be #2 behind the EU's $14.4 trillion GDP) But for a single nation, the USA is so far ahead it isn't even close. The second largest economy is Japan, at only $4.4 trillion, less than a third as big as the US. The USA has by far the world's largest and most powerful economy. China, in comparison, only has a $3.4 trillion dollar GDP. Per capita, however, Chinese citizens only make around $2,000 US dollars a year. If China wants to be a true superpower, that figure will have to be raised significantly, as right now, that makes it 107 out of 179 when measured in per capita income. Like I said previously, China, at least militarily, is probably a superpower. But, while their economy is growing, they have a long, long way to go. The United States is a behemoth economically, and China lags far behind. If it wants to be taken seriously as a major economic superpower, China will have to correct that.

[kinneer_SC]

I don't think so. The only time Russia has truly been a world power was when it was part of the USSR. Even then their main influence was militarily not econonically. That's why the cold war pretty much bankrupted them as a nation. Financially they're not even close to Europe

Europe is becoming more dependent on Russia for her energy supply, especially natural gas.

[smulan]

Safyre,
In this case I don´t think it´s a big deal if I live here or over there, we all live in a period of globalization and thats exact what it´s all about, EU and NAU.

EU and NAU are part of the same agenda, belive me, our leaders are allied. And they will create this systemchange together. EU didn´t expand in to 27 countries, with leaders willing to sacriface their countries suveregnety for nothing. The leaders purpuse is to expand together.
It´s about money, oil, power and to be united against an eventually uprising unwanted new "superpower"/ "threat".

It´s also about profit in that way that we the people are going to be forced to lower our standard. They want to be able to profit on us, the same way it is possible to profit in India and China. ( This will ofcourse not happen over a night) And if we don´t accept that- they will continue to move our job to other that are willing to accept the "right" conditions. Divide and conquer. So EU and NAU are not a good deal for us. I suppose that´s why they lie to us.

If our leaders don´t make business this way, they will loose in position in too many ways. The money will go straight in to someone else account instead.

If you want to find facts about NAU you will find it, it´s easy, just dig a little bit deeper. And don´t trust mainstream media blindly.

If you don´t think NAU is going to happen I respect that.

[Synthesis]

I don't think so. The only time Russia has truly been a world power was when it was part of the USSR. Even then their main influence was militarily not econonically. That's why the cold war pretty much bankrupted them as a nation. Financially they're not even close to Europe

Actually, for several decades, the Russian SFSR, as part of the USSR, exercise considerable economic influence (which probably reached a height during the Oil panics during the 1960s and 1970s in various countries). Besides exporting oil, the USSR flooded the rest of the world with industrial, and military, hardware.

Now, it probably wasn't the same economic power that the United States was (though many neutral nations were far more reliant on the USSR than the USA, particularly in North and Central Africa), it was a form of economic control. Sending $50 million dollars worth of farming machinery (which the USSR did) is just as potent as sending $50 million dollars, if not more so. It was different than the US, which flooded the world with money--the USSR didn't allow its currency to travel beyond its borders under normal circumstances, as a form of fighting inflation.

China is exercising power more in the American than Soviet model.

[Doc Doofus]

Davious... There are a lot of things you are wrong about there, but I won't try to argue against them all. Let me just make a broader point.

We have been the most powerful and the richest country on earth for decades now, BUT IT WASN'T ALWAYS THIS WAY. It is easy for those of us that grew up so blessed to forget that or not realize it. A hundred years ago, the richest and most powerful country on earth was Victorian Britain, in an era some now remember as Pax Britannia. "The sun never sets on Brittania." Well, the sun did set on Brittania.

So how did we end up being top dog? World War II. The developed countries of Europe destroyed each other militarily and economically. We stpped into the leftover vacuum, providing stability through plans and organizations like the Marshall Plan and the UN and Nato.

This fell into our lap. We didn't seize it and take it from the world. And we can lose it just as easily if we take it for granted, and we have been doing jnst that for eight years now. We have been waging exhaustive and expensive wars of choice while ignoring the economic damage at home. Play a few rounds of Civilization and you'll see where that leads.

The economic crisis that is happening right now with the credit markets is pretty bad. The stock market numbers are almost irrelevant in gauging it. I don't think we are headed into another Great Depression, as some people on CNBC have been saying, but we are most definitely headed for one helluva recession, an extended one, at the very least, even if the Bailout passes. Many younger people here have probably never experienced a really bad economic turndown and may have a shock awaiting them.

And if you want to know how well the stock market is doing, just get a graph of the DJIA inflation-adjusted for the past 30 years. Wait, I'll google one. Try this one:

http://home.earthlink.net/~intelligentbear/com-dj-infl.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~intelligentbear/dj-lt-infl.gif

[Doc Doofus]

Heh... Sorry for posting twice in a row, but I came across this opinion piece just now in The Guardian that says what I was trying to say, much better, even to the point of including the comparison of the US to early 20th century Britain.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/28/usforeignpolicy.useconomicgrowth

A shattering moment in America's fall from power

Our gaze might be on the markets melting down, but the upheaval we are experiencing is more than a financial crisis, however large. Here is a historic geopolitical shift, in which the balance of power in the world is being altered irrevocably. The era of American global leadership, reaching back to the Second World War, is over.

[...]

The fate of empires is very often sealed by the interaction of war and debt. That was true of the British Empire, whose finances deteriorated from the First World War onwards, and of the Soviet Union. Defeat in Afghanistan and the economic burden of trying to respond to Reagan's technically flawed but politically extremely effective Star Wars program were vital factors in triggering the Soviet collapse. Despite its insistent exceptionalism, America is no different. The Iraq War and the credit bubble have fatally undermined America's economic primacy. The US will continue to be the world's largest economy for a while longer, but it will be the new rising powers that, once the crisis is over, buy up what remains intact in the wreckage of America's financial system...

[davious]

and what your graph shows, is that even in 2008, the average is higher than it has ever been prior to Bush taking office, which is exactly what I was saying. So, if you are going to blame Bush for the current situation, how about giving him credit for the past 8 years as well? Sorry Doc, but your graph proves my point. Personally, I feel the President gets way too much credit when things are good, and way too much blame when things are bad, but, that is simply the way it is...But, as your graph shows, perhaps unintendedly for you, was that we are STILL stronger than we have ever been. Thank you for such an easy to read graph that shows very clearly that under the Bush Adminsitration, the stock market has never been higher, and even now, remains higher than it has ever been prior to the Bush Administration. Anyone can look at your chart and see that I am telling the truth. The GDP numbers also show a very healthy economy. Our economy is still the best in the world, this is a hiccup. I am sick of the pessimism. We will bounce back, and then all of you defeatists will have to say "oops". America in a recession is still the strongest economy on the planet.

I stand by my statement. The tale of America's financial demise is greatly exaggerated.

[Doc Doofus]

Davious, the DJIA is not catastrophic, but the indications are it's not good. But as I indicated in my previous post, this is almost irrelevant to the discussion of empires and what makes them fall. The Dow was higher under Clinton than it is right now. It is only very slightly ahead of where it was in January 2001 when Bush took office. That's not good for American investors, but it's not catastrophic. Presumably, people invest in stocks rather than T-bills or bonds because they expect the price to go upwards and make new highs, not be the same place it was eight years later. And on an inflation-adjusted basis, the Dow has never matched the high that it achieved under Bill Clinton.

The problem isn't the number, though. We (meaning Bush) have squandered gifts and opportunities thoughtlessly because they took them for granted. Like the invasion of Iraq, for instance. They just assumed that they could open a war overseas on multiple fronts without any thoughts of the cost, without any plans or goals other than some nebulous idea of victory. In the economy, their bottomless belief in the ability of the markets to regulate themselves led them to change laws and regulations that were the safety brakes of the system. And when things did become catastrophic, when the suprime foreclosures became a crisis around the country and became a threat to the banking system, they just shrugged and denied there was a problem, right up until we were on the brink of a massive deflationary collapse of a type unseen since 1929.

Eh... there are too many issues getting tangled together in this to hold a coherent discussion, really. The fallout from the Bush Doctrine alone, for instance, has hurt our foreign policy in a way that may make it impossible for us to keep the dominant unipolar position in the world that we had after the Berlin Wall fell. A great deal of our success depended on the world believing that we weren't a greater danger to peace and stability than the other guys.

[davious]

There is a difference between being not good and and dying though, Doc. I am not saying everything is rosy, but we aren't in nearly the dire shape many have claimed. Speaking of squandering opportunities, how about throwing blame at the Democratic leadership in Congress? The Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac situation is ultimately what lead to the current economic downturn, and Bush did try to reform it...and was blocked by the efforts of Christopher Dodd, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John Kerry...Who have all received gobs of money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in campaign contributions. The four Democrats were the top recipients of money from the two lenders, with Dodd and Obama being Nos 1 and 2, respectively. Dodd and Obama quite simply, were on the take from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It should also be pointed out that John McCain was one of three co-sponsors for S.190, the bill that back in 2005, that was opposed by key Democrats, including the current Presidential nominee, would have prevented the current crisis. That's right. John McCain tried to prevent this mess, Obama helped ensure it happened. But, regardless...The United States economy merely has a bruise, it is not on its deathbed. I am sick of all of the pessimism and "sky is falling" attitudes. We are not headed towards the Great Depression II, we are not headed towards the gas lines of the 1970s, its all nonsense. The fact is, our economy is so damn strong, that it can weather a crisis like this. Certain segments might need a little help, but while the DJIA average is down from what it was (it is still really high historically) we are still the worlds strongest economy. The economy is going to the doctor to get prescription cold medication, not because it has a terminal disease.

Further, what year or years under Clinton was it higher than it is now, as you claim? Your graph that you posted certainly doesn't show that.

[Santje]

Why is everybody here so scared of Russia?

[Doc Doofus]

You're wrong about a number of things here. First of all, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac aren't "ultimately what lead to the current economic downturn." They are just a part of a much larger problem characterized by years of deregulation, some of it admittedly under Clinton, like Glass-Steagal, but most of it promoted by the Republicans and an extreme view of the power of the free markets. Like Sarah Palin said last night, Republicans want the government out of our lives. Unfortunately, their idea of government includes government regulation of banks and wall street and new security products and hedge tools that served to disguise the nature of the accumulating bad paper during the subprime mortgage collapse. And I suppose I may be partly to blame, as well, because for years during the late 70s and 80s, I was involved with radical free market rightwing groups like the Free Enterprise Institute that was part of the whole underpinnings for the philosophy of deregulation. (Google Free Enterprise Institute for a laugh.)

But we keep getting sidetracked in side issues.

1. The DJIA is not The Economy. The DJIA could improve and it wouldn't change matters.

2. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, are not the sole or even major causes of the credit collapse.

2. The subprime mortgage and housing collapse are very serious, but they were the TRIGGER for a wider collapse which is the problem today. In fact, it is affecting the whole world at this point. Banks in other countries are failing.

3. We are not headed towards Great Depression II, I don't think, but if you think that isn't a real prospect, you aren't paying attention. The more likely possibility is that we are going to experience one helluva worldwide recession in the next year, which the world will recover from. This is bad stuff. A lot of people are going to be hurt.

4. It's a lot more complicated than "It's Obama's fault, not McCain's." And that doesn't matter, anyway, because I never blamed this on McCain. This happened on George W. Bush's watch, and they weren't watching. Everything with the economy was just hunkey-dorey until they suddenly demanded a 750 billion dollar bailout for Wall Street to prevent a panic. Bush's words:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/09/24/ST2008092403541.html

"Our entire economy is in danger," Bush said in an address from the White House, emphasizing that the massive bailout was not targeted at "any individual company or industry. It is aimed at preserving America's overall economy."

Warning that "America could slip into a financial panic," Bush blamed the crisis on "easy credit" in the housing market and "the faulty assumption that home values would continue to rise." As mortgage loans went bad and borrowers defaulted, he said, investors have succumbed to a "widespread loss of confidence" that threatens to shut down consumer lending, decimate the stock market, cause businesses and banks to fail -- and cost millions of Americans their jobs

"Ultimately, our country could experience a long and painful recession," Bush said. "Fellow citizens, we must not let this happen."

5. The subject of the credit collapse is so complicated that we can't even start on it in one post. I would suggest a separate thread so we can dig into it.

6. We will recover, but this but my original post was on the topic -- which has to do with our standing as the world's greatest economy. It's sheer hubris to imagine that we can't lose this through mismanagement. We haven't been the biggest fish in the ocean all that long in the long view of things, and history is repete with examples of countries that lost their edge. I explicitly used the example of early 20th century Great Britain which was the economic and military power of its time. Every Babylon eventually falls. We are not invulnerable.

Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[smulan]

The party is over. US and Europe are finished. B a n c r u p t.
Mainstream media, ( atleast in Europe) are not open with this. Becuse they don´t want to create panic.

Speculations, globalizations, neocons and greedy profitmakers dragged us all into a dark era.

"The bill is just Paulson’s way of carving a silver canoe for he and his brandy-drooling investor buddies so they can paddle away to some island paradise while the rest of us drown in a bottomless ocean of debt".
Mike Whitney .

Similar thing that happen in US will happen in Europe.

[Safyre420]

So you're saying that Europe is going to have a housing market crisis that affects many financial institutions causing a stock market downturn, which in essence is just another ebb & flow reality that is the stock market?

[smulan]

Yes a big housing market crisis.
Disastrous consequences...

[Safyre420]

So far the only really disastrous consequences from the US economic downturn is that the taxpayers have to foot the bill for the $700 billion bailout.

[smulan]

Will take about a year until we see the whole picture.
We are robbed.
The USA are lost by the status of a world economic superstate - proceeding financial crisis has weakened its ability to compete to growing economy, such as China and India. Economy of the USA deep depression waits, in the Great Britain — is even worse.

The world as we are use to see it will change.

[Black_Barook!]

Oh enough with the "It's all over, America and Europe are done for!" Western Europe and Japan maybe, but only because they aren't popping out as many babies as the emerging economies.

No one is going to let the American economy fall flat on it's face into another Depression. The Kuwaiti government is even considering helping America with the bailout.

[smulan]

Black_Barook!
They made money out of thin air. The bailout will not solve the problem. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20900.htm

To make things roll, people must consume and for that we need ( too borrow e v e n more) money... Bad circle.

I don´t know what you mean with "popping out as many babies as the emerging economies". The politicians constantly talk about overpopulation as a very bad thing - The strategic message is- too much people engender "climate change".

[Doc Doofus]

It's hard to explain what's going on right now. It's not a problem with housing or mortgages anymore. It's a worldwide credit crisis.

Let me explain another way. Every business larger than a mom and pop business (and some of those, too) has to have a line of credit with a bank in order to buy parts and supplies and make payroll before they sell their product and get cash rolling in. They do this on a regular basis, sometimes daily.

For instance, if you have a company that makes chairs, you could have lots of order to make new chairs, but be unable to make them and sell them because you don't have enough wood. Where before you might have been able to get the money from the bank to buy more lumber and nails, now you can't because the banks have tightened up because of the credit crisis. So, suddenly, a functioning, profitable business ends up having to lay off workers and not make or sell new chairs because of a banking problem. And the lumberyards that want to sell the lumber to the chair makers, they lose their orders -- and the whole thing cascades.

So this is a lot bigger than home mortgages.

[Hinoemasim]

I wonder, myself, how much this is a product of banks' fiscal conservatism. If lenders are unnecessarily cautious, their fear of a credit crisis only becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of a sort.

In a way, it's their own fault. Every financial institution wanted to jump on the creditor bandwagon and cash in on the interest and fee structure. Now the market is adjusting itself toward a more realistic 'actual money' picture instead of an inflated, 'virtual money' picture. (That may make no sense at all, sorry, it sounded good in my head.) ;)

[Doc Doofus]

It's not unnecessary caution. The banks are having trouble borrowing from each other because so many banks aren't solvent right now that there is a lack of trust. Each bank has to have a certain amount of cash available to it in case there is a run on its funds, even if it is solvent and profitable, because a temporary shortfall that might be easily covered in saner times by an interbank loan can't be depended on to prevent a calamity. There is a cascade effect of credit tightening -- as one institution tightens up to protect itself, everybody who might have depended on that institution feels the pinch and has to tighten up.

[smulan]

Yes indeed it is, it´s a worldwide credit crisis. The system is dead. Stonedead.
No so called bailout- package will ever help.

We need a complete new system, a new Bretton Wood. We need the principals of Franklin Roosevelt.

[Black_Barook!]

They made money out of thin air. The bailout will not solve the problem.

No they made money by tricking desperate idiots/people who wanted a house so bad that they didn't wait, didn't bother to make sure that they weren't being f*ck*d over.

To make things roll, people must consume and for that we need (too borrow even more) money... Bad circle.

There's nothing wrong with consuming products and services, it only becomes a problem when people consume sh*t that they don't need and do not bother saving. Of course that's just one small detail of a bigger picture. The American economy could easily bounce back if it shifted into heavy manufacturing. I know a lot of friends who stopped buying electronics from Kuwait because it was easier to buy them from the States.

I don´t know what you mean with "popping out as many babies as the emerging economies". The politicians constantly talk about overpopulation as a very bad thing - The strategic message is- too much people engender "climate change".

Overpopulation isn't the real problem, since we can fit the whole world into Europe. The problem is that the standard of living is rising and so people demand more and more commodities, that they don't need, that tax the environment.

Now what I meant was Japan and Western Europe are having fewer and fewer children, hence less and less people are going to have to support an aging majority. With less skilled workers it becomes expensive to hire people. China and India don't have that problem, yet. So they can out pace Japan and Western Europe (Assuming they can get a technological and finical edge over them as well.)

The United States doesn't have to worry, because since it was founded people all over the world came flocking to it and it's true that the actions of the American government and a few rising powers altered the immigration of peoples to America, lowering it 10% or less it will rise again.

[smulan]

Black_Barook!
They made money out of thin air. Wow! In that way they broke the whole system. That´s the main problem. Printing money with no back up. The system has been bleeding for a very, very long time. They only didn´t tell the people. Very irresponsible and direct incompetent. The housing market crisis was just a way to delay the ultimate crash.

There's absolutley nothing wrong with consuming products and services. The system needs it to keep going. What I meant was, how are people going to be able to consume more- if they loose their homes, jobs, money, savings, pensions, drawning in debt etc.

About the overpopulation, thats true thats not the real problem. I was only reffering what our dear politicans in Europe trying to tell us... And I guess in many case it´s true many of us in Europe could consume in another way.
Some of the climate changing- "information" is totally pure propaganda, it´s a strategy to deny upcomming countries to develop. So that they can´t expand. So that they don´t start to demand higher standard. I don´t fully agree with you, some of them really need higher standard.

[urisStar]

Black_Barook!
They made money out of thin air. Wow! In that way they broke the whole system. That´s the main problem. Printing money with no back up. The system has been bleeding for a very, very long time. They only didn´t tell the people. Very irresponsible and direct incompetent. The housing market crisis was just a way to delay the ultimate crash.

There's absolutley nothing wrong with consuming products and services. The system needs it to keep going. What I meant was, how are people going to be able to consume more- if they loose their homes, jobs, money, savings, pensions, drawning in debt etc.

About the overpopulation, thats true thats not the real problem. I was only reffering what our dear politicans in Europe trying to tell us... And I guess in many case it´s true many of us in Europe could consume in another way.
Some of the climate changing- "information" is totally pure propaganda, it´s a strategy to deny upcomming countries to develop. So that they can´t expand. So that they don´t start to demand higher standard. I don´t fully agree with you, some of them really need higher standard.

I find myself agreeing with much of what you have posted on this topic, and yes we do need a new monetary system. Money have been made out of thin air since we have had the Federal Reserve System. Maybe this might help you to understand the magic of it all: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

We are in a new dispensation which could be an opportunity to make correction through learned experience, but when you think we have advance, our brothers and sisters prove us wrong. Maybe this time it will be different!

[Black_Barook!]

Wait when you mean "Out of thin air" are you talking about credit?

[smulan]

urisStar, great info there, hope everybody takes the time to klick the link.

[Dreamydre]

China is awesome. All you ever hear about these days is Europe and American...yeah we may be getting all the attention. But while our countries are rising in fame, China has it's nose in books.

[smulan]

China is awesome- a country with no democracy, deep corruption, no respect för human rights, absurd gap between poor and rich... and Europe and US seems to adopt the same strategy.

[Synthesis]

China is awesome- a country with no democracy, deep corruption, no respect för human rights, absurd gap between poor and rich... and Europe and US seems to adopt the same strategy.

I hate to be the one to point that out, but China emulated our models of income disparity and civic/bureaucratic corruption, primarily through the late 70s and 80s. If anything, they've adopted OUR strategy (not to mention our penchant for business suits).

Also, income disparity--China isn't all that impressive on that number. Brazil, South Africa, Argentina, Chile, pretty much the entire South American continent....all have a higher level of income disparity than China (far higher, according to the Human Development Report for 07/08). China is rated 0.45-0.49, while the US is rated 0.4-0.44 (0 being the most equality, 1 being the least). China's disparity is really only famous because modern state was founded by a populist revolution (against the KMT), and because it's such a huge country.

In terms of corruption and autocratic rule--China's famed for its autocratic rule, but less for its corruption in reality, but these are harder to judge because of the sheer population size.

If we're going to judge China, though, I'd be more interested in knowing what the Chinese think of their own own country.

[kinneer_SC]

China is awesome- a country with no democracy, deep corruption, no respect för human rights, absurd gap between poor and rich... and Europe and US seems to adopt the same strategy.

You make it sound like the US does not have these problems. Or if they did, it is because of China.

China has its problems but the US and Europe have skeleton in their closets too.

[smulan]

kinneer
US and Europe have skeleton in their closets too. Absolutley. ( And Bush didn´t precisely make things better. Nor did EU).

People around the whole world are struggling with the lack of democracy, deep corruption and no respect for human rights.
Ofcourse it´s not Chinas fault.

All I tried to say was that I don´t like how things turned out. EU and US really need to focus on democracy and modify the methods on "the war against terror"... before we all end up under complete dictatorship... ( China, who is crowned as the new superstate, atleast in Europe will not be the best guide on that tour)

[sayyadina_SC]

China is awesome- a country with no democracy, deep corruption, no respect för human rights, absurd gap between poor and rich... and Europe and US seems to adopt the same strategy.

I don't want to get involved in this debate at all, but hey, wait just one second. That sounds like regular capitalism to me, and quite frankly I cant see how Europe and USA can adopt something we ourselves invented. Ok.we have "democracy". But the rest is optional.

China, as somewhat "retarded" in comparison, wants to catch up with times gone by and the greatness of capitalism. Its good they exist in days like this. If not, the financial situation could force a world-war, the only way to get the industries/economy going would be to completely destroy and start over. In fact, it is pretty much like a war. Just without the weapons.