Mod The Sims - The Difference Between Sex & Gender

Jiggles

5th Mar 2012, 1:43 AM

Do you believe there is, or should be, a distinctive difference in definition of sex and gender.

By this I mean, do you believe that sex defines someone's physical body (male or female) and gender defines someone's personal belief of themselves? (being homosexual, transsexual/gender, bisexual, heterosexual)

This topic came up between me and some friends and we were wondering what other people think.

I am gay. My friends that I was discussing this with were all straight. We all think that there is a difference between the words. Gender, to us, is a short way of saying "gender identity" and sex should be your body's physical buildup whether you're a female or male (not including homosexuality if you believe that is a physical thing and not a choice, which I do believe by coincidence, just so you know).

So, what do you think? and do you think the debate of whether homosexuality is a choice or not is a important factor in this?

This is NOT intended to offend anyone. I'm just curious.

KKiryu007Joker

5th Mar 2012, 1:58 AM

There is no gender identity beyond standard chemical and body differences. The rest is simply irrational societal conditioning.

Jiggles

5th Mar 2012, 2:00 AM

There is no gender identity beyond standard chemical and body differences. The rest is simply irrational societal conditioning.
As much as I respect your opinion, do you have any reasons for thinking the way you do?

NollemD

5th Mar 2012, 2:00 AM

Sex is a biological construct.
Gender is a sociological construct.
Homosexuality is not a choice.
No, you have not offended anyone, because the aforementioned statements are widely accepted facts in the scientific community and popular culture. It's the religious and social conservatives, I presume, that are trying to confuse the public about homosexuality.

5M0K3

5th Mar 2012, 2:43 AM

I see where you're coming from. I've never really thought about it, but I guess sex is the state of your body (i.e., WHERE YOU PEE) and gender is chromosomes, mindset, etc, etc.

maxon

5th Mar 2012, 3:35 AM

Of course there is a difference between sex and gender - the two things have different definitions.

haricots

5th Mar 2012, 9:52 AM

Sex is s-e-x.
Gender is g-e-n-d-e-r.
See, the difference. I'm smart and I know it. B-)

But, for me, homosxuality is not an option. Actually, I'm still a bit confused. Option in what? Sexual preferences? If it is, then homosexuality is definitely an option. Everyone can be homosexuality, or not. It's their rights.
Okay, this post is an OT post. I'm out. :P

VerDeTerre

5th Mar 2012, 10:11 AM

Huh. I think I've always had it backwards: I thought gender referred to whether one was male or female and sex was what one did. But it looks like it's more of what others are noting here: sex is the physical aspect and gender is the psychological and behavioral aspect.

...p 25 of the J of the ADA Style Guide (which is based on the AMA Manual of Style), you will find clearly stated:

“gender vs sex: gender refers to the psychological/societal aspects of being male or female, sex specifically to the physical aspects. Do not interchange.”

Taken from this article (http://writedit.wordpress.com/2007/09/08/sex-is-sex-not-gender/) on medical writing.

5M0K3

5th Mar 2012, 1:12 PM

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. I just re-read the OP's original post, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he's saying that your gender is like, the gender/sex that you FEEL like? I don't really know how to describe what I think he's saying, but it seems to me that that's it.... I uh... HUH??

Finaleia

5th Mar 2012, 1:23 PM

I think that gender is what parts you have while sex is how you perceive yourself, whether that be a mix between the two, purely female or male, or the opposite of what you were born with. There's nothing wrong with whatever gender identity you have, IMO.

pinketamine

5th Mar 2012, 4:08 PM

In spanish at least, sex (sexo) is a biological concept which refers simply to the fact of if you were born a woman or a man. Gender (género), on the other hand, is a sociological construct which is all about the supposed roles or characteristics that women and men tend to have.
Sexuality would be a totally different concept that is related to sex (you are homosexual if you are a man who likes men, for example) but not necessarily related to gender.
But yeah, that is what I studied in sociology classes.

There are sociological theories that say that both sex and gender are things you born with: you born as women so you "stay at home, take care of the kids, whatever other things women are supposed to do". There is also a theory that says that both sex and gender are constructs, as you can "alter" or modify your sex in some ways like body modifications or things like that.
My personal view is the one I exposed above, that is the theory I agree most.

KKiryu007Joker

5th Mar 2012, 6:06 PM

I see where you're coming from. I've never really thought about it, but I guess sex is the state of your body (i.e., WHERE YOU PEE) and gender is chromosomes, mindset, etc, etc.

Oh yes basically this is what I think myself. Now the "sex" consists of the genitals and contact between genitals, while the gender is conditioning by societal, personal, and chemical forces.

As much as I respect your opinion, do you have any reasons for thinking the way you do?

Because we are all Jesus Christ and have entitlement to free thought and speech. And about the choice of homosexuality, and it is a choice, some people feel one way and some people feel another, some people are bi, some are gay, some are not, some are asexual, some change, etc. So there is a choice.

paksetti

5th Mar 2012, 6:38 PM

HAH! Oh, shit, son. I can see where this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cWA_jr-AwyA#t=134s) is going.

Better get some popcorn.

--
Eh. I don't really have much to add, because like a lot of people up there, I believe that sex is just the physical part, and gender is the sex you see yourself as. I don't see sexual identity or sexual preference as a choice.

I'm lucky that my sex and gender are the same. I don't know who would choose to put themselves through an identity crisis.

KKiryu007Joker

5th Mar 2012, 6:49 PM

mauvikinz

5th Mar 2012, 7:28 PM

KKiryu007Joker

5th Mar 2012, 7:33 PM

Sex = physical
Gender = mental
Sexuality = straight/gay/bi/pan in comparison to sex

For me...
Sex = Female
Gender = Half and half
Sexuality = Straight

Personally, I think sexuality is both genetic and a choice, but still hard to change because of the genetic thing. Your skintone is genetic, but you can change it by getting a tan or bathing in 1 part lemon juice 3 part water to make it paler. It's partway a choice, but that doesn't mean it's something to change. A heck of a lot of people at my old school thought I should get a tan and pierce my ears even though I didn't want to. That was my choice-- not theirs. You can be who ever you want to be, regardless of what others think.

Hmm.... well for me that would be yay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgOaT4xzdvo&feature=related

Sex: Male.
Gender: Whatever I feel like at the time.
Sexuality: None, it's a preference for the person, not the gender. I find 99% percent of male and female people to be positively uninteresting in that way, including myself.

There are people in this world who enjoy changing their gender where they "act" like women supposedly.... but I'm not one of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcONhxo3K2k

Whiterider

5th Mar 2012, 8:49 PM

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to not (rationally) accept the distinction between sex and gender. It's a fact of life, observable everywhere around us. Alright, many people never have cause to pay much heed to it - being lucky enough to be cisgendered and, as far as they know, not knowing anyone else who isn't cisgendered - but the simple fact that most people don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Forming an opinion on whether or not something exists, when its existence is a known scientific fact, seems like rather a waste of time, unless you (generally) have a better theory.

KKiryu007Joker

5th Mar 2012, 9:05 PM

Maybe I should stop talking about this. I'm starting to creep myself out with myself.....

pinketamine

5th Mar 2012, 9:57 PM

Because we are all Jesus Christ and have entitlement to free thought and speech. And about the choice of homosexuality, and it is a choice, some people feel one way and some people feel another, some people are bi, some are gay, some are not, some are asexual, some change, etc. So there is a choice.

The fact that there is a variety of sexual orientations does not necessarily mean that it is a choice. There is a great variety of hair colors and you can¡t choose the one you naturally get. Of course, you can dye your hair, but if you were born with black hair, your hair will still be black. I think that sexuality is a fluid thing, but that does not mean that you choose that today you are gay and tomorrow you are straight.

But sexual preference is a choice as you can change it. I never said I wanted to.
I don't think so. I think you can change your sexual acts, but not your orientation. Deciding not to act in one way for x reasons does not mean that you don't have the orientation in that direction.

I clicked some agrees or disagrees, but didn't really have anything to add.

5M0K3

5th Mar 2012, 10:36 PM

That Jesus Christ thing wasn't meant seriously, except for JESUS CHRIST (!), and I am not gay. But sexual preference is a choice as you can change it. I never said I wanted to. OI! All of my gay friends will tell you otherwise. (including Ryan)

KKiryu007Joker

6th Mar 2012, 12:00 AM

OI! All of my gay friends will tell you otherwise. (including Ryan)

I love Ryan! He's a nice dude, and I don't think many people change their preferences.. but some do, I've heard about it, maybe you'd call them bi...... (Iderp)

5M0K3

6th Mar 2012, 12:11 AM

I love Ryan! He's a nice dude, and I don't think many people change their preferences.. but some do, I've heard about it, maybe you'd call them bi...... (Iderp) Direct quote from him (yes, I am now having him help me in sexuality debates) : "I am a homosexual. I have been homosexual since I was 12. I've been with girls before, but it never felt right. Now, I did have a boyfriend that left me for a girl. Either he was bi, or his preference changed. However, he did call me to apologize, saying it wasn't his choice, he just didn't feel like he could be attracted to a male anymore. And I understand. When I was a teenager, I wished I was straight, and I tried to be straight, but I just couldn't. You can't change your sexuality willfully. At least most people can't."

KKiryu007Joker

6th Mar 2012, 12:26 AM

Direct quote from him (yes, I am now having him help me in sexuality debates) : "I am a homosexual. I have been homosexual since I was 12. I've been with girls before, but it never felt right. Now, I did have a boyfriend that left me for a girl. Either he was bi, or his preference changed. However, he did call me to apologize, saying it wasn't his choice, he just didn't feel like he could be attracted to a male anymore. And I understand. When I was a teenager, I wished I was straight, and I tried to be straight, but I just couldn't. You can't change your sexuality willfully. At least most people can't."

Direct quote from him is better than me, because obviously I can't be considered gay or bi.

Misanthrope

6th Mar 2012, 4:09 AM

I don't really understand the distinction between the two.

Biologically, I was born a female, so that is what I am.

Personality-wise, I am more like the 'stereotypical man' rather than the 'stereotypical woman'. But for gender-identity, I don't necessarily associate myself with either group. I've never ready understood gender-identity and transgenderism, as I am personally indifferent on the matter @__@

bassoon_crazy

6th Mar 2012, 5:00 PM

I don't understand how anybody can think sexuality is a choice.

I suppose the confusion comes from those who a.) are bisexual and haven't admitted it to themselves, b.) don't know what sexuality actually means (Sexual attraction - what turns you on) or c.) have such a low sex drive that they aren't really inclined to one over the other and therefore think it's a choice.

For the sake of the topic - Gender has nothing to do with homosexuality. Gender is what you feel you are. It's probably really hard to understand the concept of gender identity when it matches your sex. However, when it doesn't, you realize that it's not something that can be described simply. It isn't societal gender roles, it's something much deeper than that.

DigitalSympathies

7th Mar 2012, 9:01 AM

The way I was taught in my school, since I was young, was like this.

When you are conceived, your DNA predetermines everything about yourself, down to the last atom. All of your favourite foods, favourite musical genres, everything is inherited and it's up to the person who has those genes to shake what their momma gave 'em - for example, if your parents listened to a lot of rock n' roll, you're predispositioned to have a bit of a leaning towards rock n' roll. For me, growing up as an adopted kid with no biological family, we put a heavy stress on becoming who you are as an individual, not on "you're just like your dad!" and stuff because I don't know who the hell my dad is. He's German, he's a farmer, and my biological mother died shortly after I was born because the hospital was too far away to get help for her labour. They named me Grishilde, meaning "shadow battle". I go by Angie or Angel now to my friends. That's all I know. But somehow I ended up listening to metal for no real reason and hating oven-baked chicken for no real reason and having a heavy interest in reading crime novels for no real reason . That was all determined for me. I'm not religious, but I'm talking proven, taught science here.

So what does this say about sex, sexuality and gender?

It is not a choice, and you cannot change what's been laid out in the basic foundations of your life. That's how your brother may have freckles when you don't, and you may prefer rock over country just like your father. Sure there are outside factors, but if you listen to who you ARE, and get in tune with that . . . it creates peace. And nobody should be able to infringe on that basic human right - the self. For me, I am biologically female with high testosterone levels I take medication to help balance, my sexuality is "If I like them, sure," (I refer it as bisexual as I haven't met a transgender person my age yet), and my mental gender is somewhere in between. Did I choose to be predispositioned to have more "male" characteristics in my everyday life? No. Did I choose to fall in love with Ariel or Aaron or Jenna or William or Felix? No! You don't go up to somebody and say "hey, I think I'm going to choose to love you because mentally I chose to be a female today." Nine times out of ten, the person would give you a look and press charges.

Case closed.

Oaktree

7th Mar 2012, 4:38 PM

Actually, preferences are not so set in stone. In terms of food preference: The foods your mother ate while you were in the womb can influence your favorite foods, but your parents' favorite foods are not necessarily your own. The types of foods you eat as a child have an impact, as does the particular makeup of your taste and olfactory receptors. Being able to taste PTC appears to have an impact on whether a person likes a variety of bitter foods, so, if your parents are tasters, but you aren't, you may have a greater tolerance for bitter foods. Genetic recombination plays a large role in who you become, and the recombination can make some of your traits fairly different from either parent, due to the way genes work together.

In terms of musical preference, it's possible that there is an underlying preference for music of a certain degree of heaviness or rhythmic quality (I haven't heard any science to this effect, but it's a possibility), but there are many different types of music that can resemble one another. Maybe your dad loves old-timey rock, and you love modern pop music. Modern pop music has a lot of rock elements to it, but, if you tell that to someone who considers himself exclusively a fan of rock, he'll hate you.

What I'm getting at is that genes influence who you become, but so does your environment. The person you are is not independently predetermined at birth.

Synkka

14th Mar 2012, 12:30 AM

Gender and sexuality are definitely different. I feel gender is a complicated subject because there are so many different things that can contribute to it. Gender I feel is more how society says a male or female should act/dress/etc. Who says fe(males) should enjoy/act like XX instead of X? Society. This isn't something I like to admit but unfortunately it's the truth for the majority of us. While there are some things that truly are masculine (biology such as being stronger and having different genitalia) and feminine (biology such as being weaker and having different genitalia), as far as personality goes I believe is mainly society based. While I'm sure the extra testosterone men have do play some role in personality and the same for different hormones in women, I think this role can be minute. I myself have female on my birth certificate but see myself as male probably 75% of the time. I suppose you could say I fit closely with bi-gender, yet I hate to label myself as gender isn't cookie cutter. I really like this post here (http://nathanialroyale.tumblr.com/post/18036683611) on tumblr.

Sexuality on the other hand can be what gender you are attracted to. This can be either physical or emotional (or both). I don't feel I can speak as well about this as gender identity so I will persuade you to go to this post here. (http://thesylverlining.tumblr.com/post/18809196955/theonecalledeli-findingsherlock-fs-says)

Bodhie

14th Mar 2012, 12:40 AM

Holy Moly! Lot of smartness here lol
Hum...I'm confused but heck....
My gender is Femaleeeeee
My sex is femaleeeeee
My orientation is Gayyyyyyyy - (there is lot of doubt there)
So can we change what we like ? sureeeeeee
Will it leave a bad taste if we change ? Yessssss
right now ?Trying to be asexué (I think it's called) lol as far as I,m concerned !

Elyasis

14th Mar 2012, 10:09 AM

Bodhie

14th Mar 2012, 8:36 PM

missy harries

15th Mar 2012, 2:25 AM

Hang on a sec....... I thought gender meant whatever you were born. Gender = Male or Female, just like sex can define someone's physical body.......

Medical Dictionary
gender gen·der (jěn'dər)
n.
The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.

Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

I take sex to mean the physical act of or your own sexual identity as well as defining what lurks beneath the pants.
Goodness, I think the english language has too many meaning's for a single word which can lead to some confusion and misreading!

Whiterider

15th Mar 2012, 10:17 AM

Interesting, though, that the first definition relies on the word 'sex' to indicate the physical element, isn't it? :P

BlakeS5678

15th Mar 2012, 7:25 PM

Ah...well hum..I would say Absitnent (as for right now) but wish to be asexué . Then again when I say the word asexué I'm thinking in french lol .
Err...it is the word used for angel I think ? something like they are asexué (have no gender or genitals)....that's what I mean . I have no idea how to say it in english .

Sorry to get off track but... I feel the need to correct this immediately.

Asexual- Usually referring to plants or cells that reproduce by themselves.

In the case of humans however- An individual who has such little attraction to others that they have VERY LITTLE to NO sex drive. Meaning you physically will never WANT to have sex with an individual of any gender NOR feel the need to.

Abstinence- An individual who still commonly feels the need or want to have sex but, chooses not to for religious, self, emotional, etc. purposes.

I think almost everyone here agrees that you can't change your sexuality, so going from gay to straight is just as likely as going from gay/straight/whatever to asexual.

zigersimmer

1st Apr 2012, 4:47 AM

If you are talking about a person's sex, you are talking about their reproductive organs. If you are talking about their gender, you are talking about the whole person.

Tempscire

1st Apr 2012, 5:05 AM

Err...it is the word used for angel I think ? something like they are asexué (have no gender or genitals)....that's what I mean . I have no idea how to say it in english .
Sexless, perhaps? Neither asexual nor abstinent refer to a lack of genitalia nor gender, and since you mentioned angels...

thomsonjamie

4th May 2012, 4:27 PM

Sexuality isn't a choice. I'm gay but I know that I did not choose to be gay, it's just the way I am. Also, just as a side-note-thing, gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. I have a lesbian friend who's waay girly, although I can't say much as I'm a gay male and I'm completely girly

thomsonjamie

4th May 2012, 4:34 PM

Personally, I think sexuality is both genetic and a choice, but still hard to change because of the genetic thing. Your skintone is genetic, but you can change it by getting a tan or bathing in 1 part lemon juice 3 part water to make it paler. It's partway a choice, but that doesn't mean it's something to change. A heck of a lot of people at my old school thought I should get a tan and pierce my ears even though I didn't want to. That was my choice-- not theirs. You can be who ever you want to be, regardless of what others think.

It's not the same as any other choice though. When you go through puberty, you start to realise what gender *your body* likes. I'm gay, and yes I *could* force myself to be with a girl, but the idea of sex with a girl disgusts me and there would be no point spending the rest of my life being unhappy because I'm with someone I find emotionally, sexually and romantically unattractive and I can't change that.

Bird

22nd May 2012, 7:55 AM

By this I mean, do you believe that sex defines someone's physical body (male or female) and gender defines someone's personal belief of themselves? (being homosexual, transsexual/gender, bisexual, heterosexual)

In a way, yes and no.
I agree that sex defines who they are based on their reproductive organs, but gender could be defined as what gender they have chosen to live their life.
But I mean if, say, a male living his life as a female is filling out important papers/documents and it asks "Gender" then they shouldn't put female, in that scenario they should put male.

Whiterider

22nd May 2012, 6:32 PM

Why? You said gender is what the person lives as; why does it have a different meaning when it's on a form?

jay_envy

22nd May 2012, 9:20 PM

I've never seen 'gender' on a form before, just 'sex'. Even then they have the option, in some places, to put 'other' or 'N/A'. How someone regards themselves in terms of gender association, it is nobodies business but that said persons.

There is an absolute difference between sex and gender. I've actually had to correct a professor of mine for confusing the two before, as the two are so widely regarded as being synonymous. However, gender is behavioral, sex is physical. Two obvious examples would be transgender and transsexual persons; transgender men and women will classify themselves as the opposing gender, will dress and behave as such, whereas transsexuals are post-op, who have had the reassignment surgery and are living their new lives as the sex they've always felt they were meant to be.

Another example would be the Fa'afafine, a 'third gender', in Samoan culture. These are people who are born biologically male but they encompass both female and male characteristics. Many foreigners view them as being homosexual in nature, which is incorrect as they don't classify themselves as male. In fact, it's so widely accepted, most heterosexual Samoan men have had, and will admit to having, sexual relations with a fa'afafine at least once in their lifetime. Also, the fa'afafine almost exclusively have relations with men, and will very rarely have them with women or other fa'afafine. It's fascinating stuff, IMO.

annoainthere

24th May 2012, 12:38 PM

For a friend of mine (he's going through the changes to become a she) this is quite a big issue, and we're constantly talking about it as she now gets very confused very fast over both her gender and sexuality. As far as we have worked out he thinks she's straight but she is into women... which is quite the conundrum!

Being more so specific of my own view, my body thinks its male and my mind thinks female (I'm born female, with an excess of testosterone which leads my body to not want to do the more feminine things it must do.. and my brain to go ooohhh look shiny) and thus I'm almost always in some state of confusion. This confusion effects my sexuality (so I bit the bullet and came out as bi-sexual years ago) as I can't seem to pick between guy/girl and stick with it (or I just hermit it for a while and ignore both).

I personally don't care if someone else is gendered/ambiguous or likes a member of the same/opposite sex. We are who we are based on past experiences and genetic variances - individually we should accept ourself for who we are and if we don't like it then do something about it, don't complain or try to make it the fault of another if you aren't willing to do something to help yourself (as you'll get no empathy from me).

Guimel

18th Aug 2012, 1:55 AM

I think there's a lot of confusion with all this terminology.
The way I see it and was teached to me is as follows:

Sex:
It's the physical sex (the genitalia), determined by your cromosomes (XX for women/XY for men)

Gender/Sexual identity:
It's the perception of being a man or a woman. If the person is transgendered, this perception or feeling will not match his/her physical sex. As sex, it's not chosen, but biologically determined.

Gender roles:
They're the different attitudes and behaviours that society pushes on people, depending on wether they're men or women (for example, the kind of jobs, the clothing, the hair styles...). Gender roles are the product of culture, not a biological reality, and as such they change across cultures and times.

Sexual orientation/Sexuality:
Describes wether the person is attracted to one sex, or the other, or both, or neither. Most scientific evidence implies that it's a biological fact, not chosen and not subject to change. There could be some genetical ground for sexual orientation, there's also some differences in brain structure between heterosexuals and homosexuals, and for example, finger lenghts in lesbians are different than in straight women. This doesn't mean that there can't be people whose sexuality is ambiguous or fluid (think about all the "straight" men that start having homosexual relationships while in jail), but this potential bisexuality is also biological, not a choice, and doesn't happen for everyone.
Labels like "heterosexual", "homosexual" or "bisexual", however, are the invention of XIXth century psychiatrists. Some people prefer to speak simply of "men who have sex with men" or viceversa.

babele44

28th Aug 2012, 9:55 AM

Roughly speaking, Guimel summarises the subject correctly, although there are some points that are either imprecise or still open to debate.

I used to teach that sort of thing, i.e. Gender Studies, on an academic level, but it is not my main discipline, so I make mistakes, too, and would have to look up the details. But in the Humanities at least you cannot survive without some knowledge of the matter.

The (strict) distinction between sex (the biological aspect) and gender (the social, political and cultural aspect) emerged as a crucial issue in feminist debate in the first half of the 20th century. The "landmark" quote in this respect is by Simone de Beauvoir from her 1949 book "The Second Sex": "One is not born a woman, one becomes one." This was quite a novelty at that time to distinguish between the biological sex (primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and the role or status of that sex within society, which was termed gender for convenience's sake.
NB: I think the term gender was borrowed from linguistics where there has always existed the notion of grammatical gender (like a ship being referred to as she without any obvious reasons).

The target of this statement was, of course, male hegemony as it challenged the idea that the supposed weakness of the female body was inevitably linked to women's weakness as social beings and inferiority with regard to men.
But it was also a challenge to some feminists' views that the supremacy of the male was a historical misfortune that could be overcome by emphasising the female superiority based on those very biological facts, as it would amount to nothing else but a simple reversal of the roles, i.e. women are the better men.

Distinguishing between sex and gender proved very fruitful for the discourse as it allowed to look at certain phenomena from a very neutral point of view, without dragging biology into the mix: Woman or Man are social constructs and therefore they do not actually exist. There were some weird biologists who even tried to prove that biological sex doesn't exist either.

The next important step is then marked by the book "Gender Trouble" from 1990 by Judith Butler, who claimed that gender had no substantial grounds whatsoever, neither in biology nor metaphysics, but was really more like the act of performing a role, or wearing a mask - a mask that was crafted by social, political and cultural conventions and agreements (both voluntary and forced). And this mask is not only open to change but can be exchanged by another mask at will and any time.
What her approach amounts to is to rewrite Simone de Beauvoir's quote: "One is not born a woman, nor does one become one, because woman as such does not exist but is rather a role among many others that will be taken according to need or choice." So you may act a woman in one situation and act a man in another.

The basis for her research was the experience of drag communities in San Francisco, where she observed that drag kings and queens are actually the "better" men and women with regard to that, because they fully understand the conventional basis of gender for the sake of their respective masquerade.

All this, however, has NOTHING to do with sexual preference, sexual preference is not dependant on gender and not dependent on sex. Gender Studies are not very much interested in the supposed causes of sexual orientation, the only interest they have in this is with regard to gender roles. Example: the typical Western male gender is white, heterosexual, patriarchal and phallocentric. Deviations from that result in the creation, literally, of a new gender (role). But what Gender Studies and their subdiscipline, Queer Studies, are very much interested in are the behavioral patterns that emerge within groups of particular sexual orientation. Example: male campness, for Gender Studies this is a clear case, campness is not something that comes with sexual orientation but is a function of the social group, it's an asset of the role. Staying in character, that is fulfilling the requirements of a particular role, facilitates communication and social intercourse, so campness is both a means to identify with a group and distinguish from another group.
ETA: So in theory it is very well possible that there are people who perform the role "gay woman" without actually desiring to have sex with their own "sex". I know, for example, a woman whom everyone would immediately classify as a lesbian. But those who know her have increasingly come to the conclusion that she is actually a gay man in a woman's body.

Ok, folks, still awake?

Juliana19285

28th Aug 2012, 5:50 PM

Can we just change the title to "Nature vs. Nurture", because that's basically what this topic has turned into. :rofl:

Me, myself, am a chick. I was born a female (though I ended up with football-player shoulders, no idea how that happened).

But I think of myself as a guy of sorts, because I cringe at the thought of wearing makeup, I wear the same set of clothes because it's just easier, and dresses? **** those things, i hate them.

I'm considered straight, and I may act bi at times, in the end I always feel more comfortable around men. Also, it's scientifically proven that homosexuals have some extra stuff in their brain than heterosexuals, hence the orientation. ;) Why do you think Bible Therapy doesn't work on homos?

Whiterider

28th Aug 2012, 9:28 PM

It doesn't seem like gender is a nurture thing any more than sex is, though, from the research.

Guimel

29th Aug 2012, 4:16 AM

Well, I think that there's definitely a difference between "gender role" (which is a nurture thing, like clothing, names, attitudes, toys...) and "gender" (which is nature, and inside the mind).
I don't think that a transgender is simply somebody who doesn't agree with gender roles. There must be something more: a sense of inadequacy between body and mind.
I mean, a transexual woman is not the same as a tomboy who doesn't like dresses. Something in her mind must be telling her that she's a man deep inside, and even if you eliminated all gender roles in society, that "something" which tells you that you're a man or a woman (your gender identity) wouldn't disappear.

smorbie1

30th Aug 2012, 12:50 PM

Technically gender is a grammar term and sex is the difference between male and female. We started using the word "gender" in America because we didn't want to confuse the identification of sex with the act of sexual intercourse.

Volvenom

30th Aug 2012, 1:27 PM

I saw a very good documentary on this. According to research the default gender of a fetus is female, then it has to develop into male, or just stay female. That's just the physical part. The mental part is something different. It should really follow the physical part, but frecuently does not. So people can have different kinds of physical visible or even invisible parts, or just different mental wireing. What society states though is based on the visible physical part, but inside what looks like a female organ, may just be an incomplete male organ.

Just saying it's very complicated:) Some of the individuals with complicated organs just said gender is in your mind.

babele44

30th Aug 2012, 2:48 PM

One of the classic cases in this respect is that of Herculine Barbin. Born a hermaphrodite he was declared female after birth and raised in a girls school. After several love affairs with classmates and teachers authorities decided that lesbianism was worse than a change of gender and he was forced to live as a male. He commited suicide after a while but left his memoirs which are a source for several significant writers in that field of research.
Interestingly enough the need for unambiguous gender is actually a quite modern one and probably tied to the introduction of identity cards in France in the 19th century. Before that, identity in general, whether gender-related or not, was a much more flexible concept.

Volvenom

30th Aug 2012, 2:59 PM

Interestingly enough the need for unambiguous gender is actually a quite modern one and probably tied to the introduction of identity cards in France in the 19th century. Before that, identity in general, whether gender-related or not, was a much more flexible concept.

I trust my english isn't failing me when I ask flexible for who? I would think that in older times if people thought you were a male, you were a male. It had to do with your status in society, werther your family had to pay for the wedding, and send her off with a gift, or pay for the bride, and who they could choose as a spouce. Undecided gender probably would give you an undecided status in society, and a struggle for survival.

babele44

30th Aug 2012, 5:06 PM

I trust my english isn't failing me when I ask flexible for who? I would think that in older times if people thought you were a male, you were a male. It had to do with your status in society, werther your family had to pay for the wedding, and send her off with a gift, or pay for the bride, and who they could choose as a spouce. Undecided gender probably would give you an undecided status in society, and a struggle for survival.I rather think that my English is failing me, at least I also failed horribly in that other thread on gender roles here :). But this was based on a passage in relation to the story of Herculine Barbin, the direct source I cannot find at the moment, but were it was stated that before the 19th century in the case of hermaphroditism these people were often given the choice to decide what gender they wanted to be as soon as they came of age. This decision was fixed but at least it was not the state that decided. How agreeable their life was is of course a different question, though.
But I found another quote, I will try to translate it as good as I can:
Medical Science (since ancient Greece until the late Middle Ages) had notions that were not necessarily emphasising the difference between the sexes. Thomas Laqueur (1992) called this the "model of the one sex" that conceived of the female body as "an inverted male", inferior but not antipodal. The strong difference of the social roles of the male and female sex was not based on the difference of their respective bodies. (...). "
Source: Jean-Claude Kauffmann, L'invention du soi. Une théorie de l'identité, 2004He then goes on to show that it was in fact medical research in the 19th century that began to put a gender to everything und thus creating a gender gap that did not exist like this before.
For the other story I bet it is somewhere in Michel Foucault's "History of Sexuality" as he was the one to recover the diary of Herculine.

Whiterider

30th Aug 2012, 6:06 PM

babele44

30th Aug 2012, 6:20 PM

I suspect that the practise of letting hermaphrodites decide on their gender started losing ground when it became possible to surgically assign a sex; it's felt that, for the best results, such surgery must be done as young as possible - so we've gone from saying "This child is born with unusual sexual organs, their life will be moderately miserable" to "We'll flip a coin, 50% chance they have a great life, 50% chance they have one of abject horror". I'm not entirely sure it was a positive move.Well, according to those writers (but mind you they're either philosphers, historians of ideas or sociologists and not necessarily concerned with the well-being of others) it is the very wish to assign a sex that is the actual culprit. Wanting to be without any doubts as to the gender of something is for them the result of the development of governmental beaurocracy.
Interesting in this respect is for example the history of the Hijra in South Asia. The wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) suggests too that a major part of their current misery is due to the colonial English government's refusal to accept the existence of a third sex.

RoseCity

30th Aug 2012, 9:09 PM

Well, according to those writers (but mind you they're either philosphers, historians of ideas or sociologists and not necessarily concerned with the well-being of others) it is the very wish to assign a sex that is the actual culprit. Wanting to be without any doubts as to the gender of something is for them the result of the development of governmental beaurocracy.
Interesting in this respect is for example the history of the Hijra in South Asia. The wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) suggests too that a major part of their current misery is due to the colonial English government's refusal to accept the existence of a third sex.
I think the desire to quickly assign a sex to an infant has to do also with the doctor and parent's discomfort with sexual ambiguity. Because parents/society starts conditioning you in your gender behavior from the moment you're born.

Volvenom

4th Sep 2012, 10:21 AM

If we stick to history and culture.

I rather think that my English is failing me, at least I also failed horribly in that other thread on gender roles here :). But this was based on a passage in relation to the story of Herculine Barbin, the direct source I cannot find at the moment, but were it was stated that before the 19th century in the case of hermaphroditism these people were often given the choice to decide what gender they wanted to be as soon as they came of age. This decision was fixed but at least it was not the state that decided. How agreeable their life was is of course a different question, though.

That sounds like a opportunity only for the rich people. What chose did gay hermaphroditism people have :)

He then goes on to show that it was in fact medical research in the 19th century that began to put a gender to everything und thus creating a gender gap that did not exist like this before.
For the other story I bet it is somewhere in Michel Foucault's "History of Sexuality" as he was the one to recover the diary of Herculine.

I would think the gap was in roles. I've seen in some research from kindergarden. What gender the kids have is the first thing they focus on. Not easy to be something in between. I know some cultures has a much more flexible gender understanding then what's usually the case here. Then of cause I have problems seeing herma people getting much choice in Norway frankly. I may be wrong.

The surgery option was well documented in the film I saw. How it could just turn horribly wrong.

jthm_nny

6th Sep 2012, 12:27 PM

Personally, I think there's a huge difference between the two. Let's say there were two men, one liked stereotypically masculine things while the other liked stereotypically feminine things. Naturally, you would be able to tell the difference. While just liking certain things isn't enough for a person to have a different gender, this is the general concept extremely simplified. It could affect the way people act, react, feel, love, and sometimes talk besides just their appearance, yet it only reverses the gender of everything about their personality instead of affecting them in worse ways. It's a very simple concept, but a lot of people have problems with understanding it. Also, there's always this stereotype that everyone with another gender other than their birth gender is always the opposite gender only and can't me mixed between the two and will always transition. Some people aren't simply black and white but in the grey area, and may or may not transition anyways.

GnatGoSplat

6th Sep 2012, 3:39 PM

CmarNYC

15th Sep 2012, 8:57 AM

I'm with Gnat; my gender is how I'm built, my gender identity is whether I believe I'm male or female. Similarly, my sexual preference is whether I'm attracted to males, females, both, or neither. And my gender role preferences are whether I like to behave in stereotypically masculine, feminine, both, or neither ways. None of the above necessarily have anything to do with each other.

Tempscire

19th Sep 2012, 7:23 PM

No, I think assuming the word "gender" alone implies "gender identity" is confusing and is a misuse of the word. In every news segment I've seen and professionally-written article I've read, gender describes the state of the person's physical sex, whether it be male or female. When the topic is someone's gender identity, they specifically use the entire phrase "gender identity". They would not do this if it were generally accepted that the word "gender" alone implies "gender identity".
I suspect part of that problem is the difference between casual and technical speech, at least in the news reports (and maybe some reluctance to explicitly say the word 'sex' as a standalone thing, even in a non-..er, sexual capacity). I don't know what scholarly articles you've read that "every" one adheres to that terminology, but you can find plenty of exceptions even on Google Scholar. Or at least, articles in which "gender" is clearly used to refer to something more than just genitalia. It seems to me that "sex," "gender," and "gender identity" all refer to different things, albeit with varying degrees of overlap, and in my experience the conflation of "sex" with "gender" is the more confusing and possibly even harmful of the overlaps.