Global Lawsuit against EA over Securom in Spore

[lightningfro]

Link to the legal document (36 pages):
http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/09/23/Spore.pdf

[Delphy]

Erm, just linking to a document without saying what you think is pretty lazy.

[Soeverein]

I have just finished reading the entire legal document. I have to say as a European I'm not too well versed American law however.

All I could possible say about this is that in a court over here, they'd stand a good chance of winning against EA. In a court by American rules - I don't know. I thought that only in the movies do individuals win court cases against large companies.

Regardless, I hope this court case is won. It reminds me of the huge scandals about the Sony rootkit scandal again, and that ended pretty well I think. I recently bought a CD from a band signed with Sony, and the CD is as clean as it can be. Let's hope EA follows Sony's example.

[Thaissa]

I bought it, but then I also purchased BV, Freetime and Apartment Life. It will be interesting to see what happens -- I haven't had any issues with this on THIS computer, though it did make my old laptop's dvd read/write function fail.

[Safyre420]

Well by the looks of it, they have a good lawsuit. But from what I've seen happen in cases involving large companies, they have a habit of either being very quiet or being settled outside of court. I have a feeling that EA will try to go the route of settling outside of court and still make us have SecuROM.

[lightningfro]

Erm, just linking to a document without saying what you think is pretty lazy.

I didn't think there was a requirement to post what I thought (and yes I read the guidelines no posting links if you have less than 5 posts). But since my thoughts are so valuable, I think EA has had this coming for a long time, with their attitudes being along the "we can do anything we want" mindset from forcing employees to work overtime *up 100 hours* (regardless if there was an upcoming deadline or not) to this to being notorious for running acquired studios into the ground and using the excuse of poor sales so they can take total control.
If the lawsuit is the beginning of the end of EA then so be it, I'm just glad they dropped their buyout offer of Take-Two. But like Safyre said, they'll probably end up settling out of court with no obligations to take off Securom their games.

[Soeverein]

One thing I'm wondering.

For someone who knows a thing or two about the US legislation to answer.

Since this case is pretty much representing the entire class of people around the globe who bought Spore - does that mean anyone who bought the game anywhere, can register with the court as an involved party for this case?

[Nyami]

This better make them stop using SecuROM. If it doesn't, they are stupid.

[kennyinbmore]

That lawsuit doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell

[MaryH]

Sillier things have been sued over, and have won. If the lawsuit gets past the first motions filed (dismiss for lack of evidence, etc), then they'll have a suit.
BTW, the firm doing this also did the Sony DRM lawsuit. They won.

[kennyinbmore]

Sillier things have been sued over, and have won. If the lawsuit gets past the first motions filed (dismiss for lack of evidence, etc), then they'll have a suit.
BTW, the firm doing this also did the Sony DRM lawsuit. They won.
The sony situation was totally different

But Sony's technology also included a rootkit similar to those used by malicious hackers to spy on computer use, installed without consent and difficult to detect and remove. Once the scandal broke, Sony BMG issued an uninstaller that in some ways worsened the situation by creating bigger security holes that the digital underground could capitalize on.
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid14_gci1155157,00.html

In short the rootkit used by Sony also included spyware and created security problems on consumers computers. Securom doesn't

[MaryH]

SecuRom is made and installed by Sony; hence they're using the same technology that got them into trouble in the first place, with all the bells and whistles.

[Simsane]

Yes, Securom does install in the registry files and you cannot remove it without downloading a third-party program. Apparently the program offered by Sony to be able to remove Securom from the registry files is not working for many people. I really would do some more research into exactly what Securom is and what it does to become better informed.

[kennyinbmore]

SecuRom is made and installed by Sony; hence they're using the same technology that got them into trouble in the first place, with all the bells and whistles.
It's not the same technology. I suggest you read up on exactly what was in that rootkit and what it did

[LadyGrainne]

The sony situation was totally different

But Sony's technology also included a rootkit similar to those used by malicious hackers to spy on computer use, installed without consent and difficult to detect and remove.

Doesn't sound that different to me.
Nobody has the right to install additional, secret software on my pc, without my knowledge or consent. Why should EA be permitted to not only get away with it, but continue it, as well? They've had a smackdown coming, and I sincerely hope they get it.

[kennyinbmore]

Doesn't sound that different to me.
Nobody has the right to install additional, secret software on my pc, without my knowledge or consent. Why should EA be permitted to not only get away with it, but continue it, as well? They've had a smackdown coming, and I sincerely hope they get it.
This is the difference

XCP conceals itself from the user by installing a patch to the Windows operating system. This patch stops ordinary system tools from displaying processes, registry entries, or files whose names begin with $sys$. Other XCP components include "Plug and Play Device Manager", which continuously monitors all other programs being run on the computer.

XCP.Sony. Rootkit loads a system filter driver which intercepts all calls for process, directory or registry listings, even those unrelated to the Sony BMG application. This rootkit driver modifies what information is visible to the operating system in order to cloak the Sony BMG software. This is commonly referred to as rootkit technology. Furthermore, the rootkit does not only affect XCP.Sony. Rootkit's files. This rootkit hides every file, process, or registry key beginning with $sys$. This represents a vulnerability, which has already been exploited to hide World of Warcraft RING0 hacks as of the time of this writing, and could potentially hide an attacker's files and processes once access to an infected system had been gained.



Securom doesn't do that. As I said it's not the same technology. This lawsuit is going nowhere

[FurryPanda]

For someone who knows a thing or two about the US legislation to answer.

Since this case is pretty much representing the entire class of people around the globe who bought Spore - does that mean anyone who bought the game anywhere, can register with the court as an involved party for this case?

Well, my expertise is primarily in traffic and copyright law (the former infinitely more than the latter), but if you contacted Melissa Thomas and/or her lawyers, then you could get whatever chunk of the settlement that the class gets (it will be very small. Lawyer fee= #of people in class*usual fee) and if it made you feel good inside you could testify. Which would mean traveling and staying in whatever venue EA drags this poor girl to, for the duration of the civil suit. Figure four years. Unless you get in the class and then get subpoena-ed, in which case it would just be the length required t testify. But if you contact her lawyers and they seem interested, then legally speaking you will be a part of the class. I would just really not recommend it.

That lawsuit doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell
I'm inclined to agree with you. Amount of money EA has available to fight with- 4.02 billion dollars. Amount of money Melissa Thomas has to fight with- less than a hundred grand a year, probably. If she has enough backbone to not settle for a very large pile of stfu money, then EA can just change venue enough that she can't deal with it.

Even if she can afford to fight this, EA can hire more and better lawyers, and most judges are more inclined to agree with a corporation that can and does provide extensive lobbying money than a righteously indignant gamer.

Under copyright law (I'm more familiar with literary copyright, so if I'm wrong, please correct me) EA is perfectly allowed to do this- (paraphrase) "any entity is allowed to protect thier work from copy and misuse by others" This is for novels though, I have no idea what it is for software. And of course the legal language doesn't use lovely absolutes like "any"

So the only hope (without EA being blooming idiots, or these lawyers and this girl being infinitely more tenacious than I give them credit for) would be that the horrendous publicity would make EA get rid of it. So write to your local new stations chaps, and make ripples!

[Soeverein]

Well, my expertise is primarily in traffic and copyright law (the former infinitely more than the latter), but if you contacted Melissa Thomas and/or her lawyers, then you could get whatever chunk of the settlement that the class gets (it will be very small. Lawyer fee= #of people in class*usual fee) and if it made you feel good inside you could testify. Which would mean traveling and staying in whatever venue EA drags this poor girl to, for the duration of the civil suit. Figure four years. Unless you get in the class and then get subpoena-ed, in which case it would just be the length required t testify. But if you contact her lawyers and they seem interested, then legally speaking you will be a part of the class. I would just really not recommend it.

Thanks for the information. Not that I was going to apply to join that suit. I never bought Spore.

I'm not crazy enough yet to pay a large corporation to infect my computer with their custom-built virus.

[LadyGrainne]

This is the difference

XCP conceals itself from the user by installing a patch to the Windows operating system. This patch stops ordinary system tools from displaying processes, registry entries, or files whose names begin with $sys$. Other XCP components include "Plug and Play Device Manager", which continuously monitors all other programs being run on the computer.

XCP.Sony. Rootkit loads a system filter driver which intercepts all calls for process, directory or registry listings, even those unrelated to the Sony BMG application. This rootkit driver modifies what information is visible to the operating system in order to cloak the Sony BMG software. This is commonly referred to as rootkit technology. Furthermore, the rootkit does not only affect XCP.Sony. Rootkit's files. This rootkit hides every file, process, or registry key beginning with $sys$. This represents a vulnerability, which has already been exploited to hide World of Warcraft RING0 hacks as of the time of this writing, and could potentially hide an attacker's files and processes once access to an infected system had been gained.



Securom doesn't do that. As I said it's not the same technology. This lawsuit is going nowhere

Please refer to the part of my post in bold: installed without consent and difficult to detect and remove.
As I stated, that doesn't sound any different, to me. Whether or not it's the same technology I find to be a moot point. The point is, it is software installed without my knowledge or consent. The lawsuit doesn't have to go anywhere, from a legal standpoint. The more this issue snowballs and is addressed, the more people will become aware that not only are they installing a game, they are also installing a program they did not agree to, or were even informed of. This is unacceptable, in theory & in practice.

[kennyinbmore]

Please refer to the part of my post in bold:
As I stated, that doesn't sound any different, to me. Whether or not it's the same technology I find to be a moot point. The point is, it is software installed without my knowledge or consent. The lawsuit doesn't have to go anywhere, from a legal standpoint. The more this issue snowballs and is addressed, the more people will become aware that not only are they installing a game, they are also installing a program they did not agree to, or were even informed of. This is unacceptable, in theory & in practice.
Ok that's one aspect of it, but that's not the aspect of the case Sony lost. Sony lost their case primarily because that rootkit on those CDs was interfering with other parts of consumer PCs that had nothing to do with the Sony material. The Securom issue is a whole other issue. EA has the right to use some form of copy protection, that's why this case won't get anywhere.
Oh and by the way it's not installed without consent. It's been a well known fact that EA has been using Securom for a few years.

[Safyre420]

It maybe well known in the techie world but in regular consumer world not many people know about SecuROM. Also SecuROM has messed up peoples computers to the point where they can't even burn cd's and such so this case can get somewhere.

[HystericalParoxysm]

SecuROM can -potentially- interfere with burning or emulation software... but I have both burning and emulation software on my computer, AND SecuROM (the version from Spore and TS2 of course - as well as the EA Downloader) and have had NO problems whatsoever - with running Spore, or with using any of the other programs. I don't like the idea of stealthy software installing itself on my computer without my knowledge, but the whole, "SecuROM broked my computer!" stuff is just silly.

[kennyinbmore]

SecuROM can -potentially- interfere with burning or emulation software... but I have both burning and emulation software on my computer, AND SecuROM (the version from Spore and TS2 of course - as well as the EA Downloader) and have had NO problems whatsoever - with running Spore, or with using any of the other programs. I don't like the idea of stealthy software installing itself on my computer without my knowledge, but the whole, "SecuROM broked my computer!" stuff is just silly.

I totally agree. Your situation mirrors mine and that's the main reason why I think this suit doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell. Anything can happen with a jury, but this case sounds a bit on the flimsy side juding by the court documents. IMO of course

[kinneer_SC]

I personally hopes EA loses or at least be forced to remove SecuRom. My main concern is that if EA wins, then indirectly, they were permitted to install additional software onto PC without the owner's consent. This potentially open up a whole new area of other companies installing additional programmes legally, secretly. It may or may happen but this would be the first step in that direction. EA may set a precedence where the end justify the means.

I would be interesting in what MS has to say about patching the OS in ring 0. I am not a security or OS expert. But if I was the maker of an OS and people was able to patch it at the highest security level to bypass functionality, I would be concern about the security and stability issue. Unless of course I was consulted and provided assistance to the other party.

[FurryPanda]

I totally agree. Your situation mirrors mine and that's the main reason why I think this suit doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell. Anything can happen with a jury, but this case sounds a bit on the flimsy side juding by the court documents. IMO of course
This is a civil suit- no jury. It will be on judge deciding, and if (read: when) either party appeals it to the next level twill be 3 judges, and then if they still go it will be the nine of the maryland supreme court. No jury anywhere, there's never even twelve people deciding, let alone twelve peers.

[kennyinbmore]

This is a civil suit- no jury. It will be on judge deciding, and if (read: when) either party appeals it to the next level twill be 3 judges, and then if they still go it will be the nine of the maryland supreme court. No jury anywhere, there's never even twelve people deciding, let alone twelve peers.
I stand corrected. Somehow I don't think the chick has that kind of money for 3 or 4 appeals. Just a guess. I stand by what I said, that case doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

[MaryH]

At the bottom of the complaint there is the notation that a jury trial is requested. If EA responds to this, and the suit is not dismissed, the jury must be selected. Federal law.
This is the District Court in California, of the Ninth Circuit.
If this suit succeeds in going to trial, and the loser appeals, it goes to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals-a three judge panel. If that does not work, then the loser goes to a possible en-banc sitting of 9 judges.
If that doesn't prove a successful venue, they can then request a Supreme Court hearing. Those are extremely hard to get.
This whole process takes years and tons of money. Hope EA has plenty.

[HyjaClinton]

-nods- Snowballs chance in hell.

[MaryH]

There is another law firm that is also investigating SecuRom on other Sims games, including ME, Command and Conquer, etc..they're actively asking for people to contact them for more details about the problems they're having.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Spore.asp?_kk=securom&_kt=ab4da11e-36c2-4686-9632-ad225132aa8f&gclid=CPeIlMjM_pUCFSJIagodV3ZwEA

The firm is Girard Gibbs. Check it out.

[kennyinbmore]

There is another law firm that is also investigating SecuRom on other Sims games, including ME, Command and Conquer, etc..they're actively asking for people to contact them for more details about the problems they're having.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Spore.asp?_kk=securom&_kt=ab4da11e-36c2-4686-9632-ad225132aa8f&gclid=CPeIlMjM_pUCFSJIagodV3ZwEA

The firm is Girard Gibbs. Check it out.

The problem with that is that the firm would have to prove securom is causing the problems on the respective computers. Can you imagine them going through thousands of problems on thousands of computers with thousands of configurations with thousands of specs. Not to mention there are many people(present company included) who've never had any securom based problems. Good luck Girard Gibbs :)

[MaryH]

I think they'll do just fine. They took on the Sony/BMG case, and won. They seem to have a handle on intellectual property rights law, and other sundry things. I think they know what they're doing.
Lawyers are paid for this kind of thing. Besides, if they lose, they eat the costs of the lawsuit. The clients do not pay for this.

[kennyinbmore]

I think they'll do just fine. They took on the Sony/BMG case, and won. They seem to have a handle on intellectual property rights law, and other sundry things. I think they know what they're doing.
Lawyers are paid for this kind of thing. Besides, if they lose, they eat the costs of the lawsuit. The clients do not pay for this.

You keep saying that. It's not the same type of case

[MaryH]

Let's let the courts decide what kind of case this is. We're not the lawyers for the various plaintiffs. We're just the suckers that EA has targeted for SecuRom.
If it gets to court, I expect EA will vigorously defend their crappy program, and I expect the lawyers will defend their position.
But I would dearly love to see EA taken down for the count.

[kennyinbmore]

The courts will decide, but you don't have to be a lawyer to know this case is going nowhere. 99.9% of those Amazon complaints are about the install limit, not about breaking computers. Maybe you consider yourself a sucker, but I don't consider myself one. I don't have any securom problems. maybe it's your "crappy computer".

[MaryH]

First of all, I do not have Securom in my computer because I'm smart enough to not have any game with it in my computer, which is just fine, thank you.
Second, there are many people who are as of this moment contacting the law firms involved in both suits with complaints about the program itself, with proof and other miscellaneous things that lawyers ask for in a deposition.
Third, I would suggest that you stop being a jerk and making overly patronizing and insulting generalized statements.
BTW, I know my fair share of law, even though I'm not a lawyer-and I've seen enough legal shenanigans to know that this case is going somewhere..but in due time and without our vaunted "expertise."
Federal court ain't traffic court, and I would suggest you learn the difference.
Over and out.

[kennyinbmore]

For someone who claims to know their "fair share" of law perhaps you can explain to me how a judge is going to tell a software company that they have no right to protect their intellectual property or that they have to use a consumer approved protection method. DRM has been upheld in federal court in previous cases. That's the difference between this case and the Sony case. The Sony rootkit compromised the security of PCs that it was installed on and took over some of the processes of computers, that's why they lost that case. Securom does not do that. This whole case is being brought because the litigant doesn't like the install limit. Nothing more , nothing less and she will lose on those grounds

[tessieroo]

Of course they have the right to copy-protection! DOH....but consider no one complained about SafeDisk. It didn't disable programs on anyone's PC, it was only there to protect the intellectual property of game companies. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is this particular version of SecuROM which disables things it considers "emulation" software. My Dell PC came with the Nero burning program preinstalled and SecuROM disabled it. It's done other strange things as well:


http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=13

It's very simple. If you had a problem after you installed BV, call them. If not, don't bother & don't read about it as it doesn't apply to you. And it's not only Sims 2 Expansion packs that are being included. Mass Effect & Need For Speed have joined already.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Spore.asp?_kk=securom&_kt=ab4da11e-36c2-4686-9632-ad225132aa8f&gclid=CPeIlMjM_pUCFSJIagodV3ZwEA

[kennyinbmore]

Of course they have the right to copy-protection! DOH....but consider no one complained about SafeDisk. It didn't disable programs on anyone's PC, it was only there to protect the intellectual property of game companies. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is this particular version of SecuROM which disables things it considers "emulation" software. My Dell PC came with the Nero burning program preinstalled and SecuROM disabled it. It's done other strange things as well:


http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=13

It's very simple. If you had a problem after you installed BV, call them. If not, don't bother & don't read about it as it doesn't apply to you. And it's not only Sims 2 Expansion packs that are being included. Mass Effect & Need For Speed have joined already.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Spore.asp?_kk=securom&_kt=ab4da11e-36c2-4686-9632-ad225132aa8f&gclid=CPeIlMjM_pUCFSJIagodV3ZwEA
I have all the Sims EPs, I have no problem with my emulation software, I have no problem burning CDs or DVDs. I have Nero and it's never been disabled. This is why that case is going nowhere. I have a Dell as well BTW

[Ferret II]

I have all the Sims EPs, I have no problem with my emulation software, I have no problem burning CDs or DVDs. I have Nero and it's never been disabled. This is why that case is going nowhere. I have a Dell as well BTW

Just because you are lucky enough to not have a problem does not mean that other people aren't having problems. There is evidence that people are having problems.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Many, many people -don't- have problems, though, and just because you do have issues with your computer doesn't necessarily mean it's a SecuROM issue. As I said, I've got SecuROM installed from TS2 and Spore and have had -0- issues with it. I have about four different types of emulation programs installed and none of them have ever had any problem doing anything they need to.

Many users attribute any issue they have with their computers to SecuROM because they've heard it's bad. I've heard of people reporting not just temporary disabling of certain features such as disk burning/emulation, but actual hardware damage, which is completely impossible. Not denying that SecuROM sucks, and that it can cause problems, but I think the reports of issues are blown out of proportion and many of the problems are not SecuROM related at all.

If they're doing a lawsuit for it, they're going to have to prove conclusively - if part of it is the problems SecuROM causes - that the issues are directly related to SecuROM itself and not the bajillion other things that can cause issues with computers.

[kennyinbmore]

Exactly why that lawsuit is going nowhere.

[BillyDee]

It's ridiculous. The official forum has BANNED USERS FROM DISCUSSING (http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/3869.page) SecuROM or DRM at all in the forums.

That is out. of. control. They're actually claiming that their highly fallacious "intellectual property" gives them the ability to damage someone's tangible, physical property. They've gone from asserting that IP is the same as scarce physical goods to saying that IP is actually superior in rights and obligations to scarce physical goods. In. Sane.

Yet more proof that Intellectual Property is not real property at all, just another avenue of corporate-state aggression.

I think it's retarded. Paying customers are disenfranchised, while pirates still usually manage to get around the security before the game is even released, so anyone can still torrent it. These DRM programs really only provide even more incentive to pirate, because then you can at least install the game whenever the hell you want, and without turning your PC into a zombie or opening the floodgates.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Err, BillyDee, read the rest of that thread - not just the bit in red. That was not an official employee but a volunteer moderator that put that there - it was wrong in the first place, but they weren't acting in EA policy whatsoever. Not right, but understandable - in any situation where there's a bunch of people involved, sometimes individuals may make the wrong call regarding policy and it has to be corrected by higher-ups.

DRM does not damage physical property. SecuROM does not damage physical property. SecuROM may temporarily (i.e. while it's installed) prevent certain burning/emulation software from working properly. It causes no physical damage whatsoever and devices resume normal operation once it has been uninstalled. And most users who install SecuROM have -no- issues, including those with emulation and burning software.

I'm certainly no fan of SecuROM, DRM, or EA's practices in it, but if you're going to be pissed at them... be pissed for the right reasons. ;)

[Safyre420]

One thing that I'm trying to figure out is if the people are really irritated about what SecuROM can do to one's pc(ie issues with burning/emulation software) then why not go after the makers of SecuROM?

[kennyinbmore]

It's ridiculous. The official forum has BANNED USERS FROM DISCUSSING (http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/3869.page) SecuROM or DRM at all in the forums.

That is out. of. control. They're actually claiming that their highly fallacious "intellectual property" gives them the ability to damage someone's tangible, physical property.

Securom doesn't damage physical property. anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know a thing about computers and the hardware inside


I'm certainly no fan of SecuROM, DRM, or EA's practices in it, but if you're going to be pissed at them... be pissed for the right reasons. ;)
Exactly

[Danlee1]

For someone who claims to know their "fair share" of law perhaps you can explain to me how a judge is going to tell a software company that they have no right to protect their intellectual property or that they have to use a consumer approved protection method.

Actually they have no right to do what they did without the customers OK. Now before I get flame, I know this quote and link go to the Sony case and there are more stuffs about it than just what I'm posting, but the quote I'm posting is to answer the subject at hand only, so please don't try to change the subject in respond to my post! For those that wonder where this quote come from it from the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, that mean all future case after this, that have the same issues about the subject at hand are legally binding and the court will have no choices, but to comply. Anyway as you can see from the quote, company are not allow to install content protection software without obtaining consumers authorization.
On a personal note, I don't know about you guys out there that defend EA, but for me I feel cheated. I buy Spore to own the game, not to rent it. :blink: Remember again this finding are legally bind to all future case that have similar matters because this ruling is pass and regulate by the FTC. P.S. new user so it won't let me link the url so just connect the the dot to get to the site.

www. ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/sony. shtm

"“Consumers’ computers belong to them, and companies must adequately disclose unexpected limitations on the customary use of their products so consumers can make informed decisions regarding whether to purchase and install that content.”

The settlement requires clear and prominent disclosure on the packaging of Sony BMG’s future CDs of any limits on copying or restrictions on the use of playback devices. It bars the company from installing content protection software without obtaining consumers’ authorization, and, if Sony BMG conditions consumers’ use of its CDs on installation of the content protection software, it must disclose that requirement on the product packaging.

The settlement bars Sony BMG from installing or hiding content protection software that prevents consumers from finding or removing the software, and requires that it provide a reasonable and effective way to uninstall any content protection software. It requires that for two years, Sony BMG provide an uninstall tool and patches to repair the security vulnerabilities created on consumers’ computers by previously installed software. The company is required to advertise these free fixes on its Web site."

[HystericalParoxysm]

Danlee1 - I think there's a big difference between blindly defending EA and wanting people to know the facts. It's fine to be annoyed with it - I don't think anyone here is going, "Woo, go EA! Go DRM! Go SecuROM!" but there's a lot of misinformation/misunderstanding about the exact details - like with the previous poster that said they'd banned all talk of it and that SecuROM damages your personal property. That sort of misinformation and misunderstanding really doesn't help things at all. I've said repeatedly that I'm not a fan of DRM or SecuROM and I'd be a heck of a lot happier if companies did away with all that silly crap and stopped treating their paying customers like criminals, since all this does nothing to deter pirates, and the only people hurt by it are the paying customers.

The info posted in that article is interesting - the exact details of the Sony stuff and Spore's DRM/SecuROM are a little different, but undisclosed software is a common theme (even if the exact operation of the two differ). It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but it also is going to take a tech-savvy judge to handle this.

[kennyinbmore]

Just because you are lucky enough to not have a problem does not mean that other people aren't having problems. There is evidence that people are having problems.

As I said on my main bbs posting. Securom is an easy target for people having any type of problems with their computer. Most of the people screaming Securom did this, Securom did that, aren't even properly diagnosing their problem. Not that that was the point of my post. My point is many people have no problems with securom which is why this case is going nowhere. Everyone knew that game was going to have some form of securom on it and they bought it anyway. That suit isn't about broken computers, it's about someone pissed off by the install limit

Actually they have no right to do what they did without the customers OK. Now before I get flame, I know this quote and link go to the Sony case and there are more stuffs about it than just what I'm posting, but the quote I'm posting is to answer the subject at hand only, so please don't try to change the subject in respond to my post! For those that wonder where this quote come from it from the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, that mean all future case after this, that have the same issues about the subject at hand are legally binding and the court will have no choices, but to comply. Anyway as you can see from the quote, company are not allow to install content protection software without obtaining consumers authorization.
On a personal note, I don't know about you guys out there that defend EA, but for me I feel cheated. I buy Spore to own the game, not to rent it. :blink: Remember again this finding are legally bind to all future case that have similar matters because this ruling is pass and regulate by the FTC. P.S. new user so it won't let me link the url so just connect the the dot to get to the site.

www. ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/sony. shtm

"“Consumers’ computers belong to them, and companies must adequately disclose unexpected limitations on the customary use of their products so consumers can make informed decisions regarding whether to purchase and install that content.”

The settlement requires clear and prominent disclosure on the packaging of Sony BMG’s future CDs of any limits on copying or restrictions on the use of playback devices. It bars the company from installing content protection software without obtaining consumers’ authorization, and, if Sony BMG conditions consumers’ use of its CDs on installation of the content protection software, it must disclose that requirement on the product packaging.

The settlement bars Sony BMG from installing or hiding content protection software that prevents consumers from finding or removing the software, and requires that it provide a reasonable and effective way to uninstall any content protection software. It requires that for two years, Sony BMG provide an uninstall tool and patches to repair the security vulnerabilities created on consumers’ computers by previously installed software. The company is required to advertise these free fixes on its Web site."
With all due respect Dan, I'm willing to bet 99.9% of the people who bought Spore was familiar with EA and knew some form of securom was going to be on it. So it's a stretch to say EA did anything underhanded. You're seriously not going to sit here and tell em you didn't know securom was going to be included in the game are you?

As for us guys defending EA, as HP said nobody's cheering on EA. However too many people have the emotional reaction and aren't exactly beign objective with the infomation out here. Securom does not damage hardware, but there actually people that believe that silly mess. If the version of Securom didn't have an install limit, this wouldn't even have been a story.

Lastly, those of you who keep bringing up the Sony case, need to read up on the case. Sony's case lost because that rootkit was doing more than copy protecting Sony's intellectual property.

[Safyre420]

With all due respect Dan, I'm willing to bet 99.9% of the people who bought Spore was familiar with EA and knew some form of securom was going to be on it. So it's a stretch to say EA did anything underhanded. You're seriously not going to sit here and tell em you didn't know securom was going to be included in the game are you?

No disrespect to you kenny but I'm 99.99% positive you are incorrect in your statement that 99.9% of people who bought spore knew that some form of securom was going to be on it. In fact I'm willing to bet that a great majority aren't tech savvy enough to even know what securom is and that it was even on the disc.

[kennyinbmore]

No disrespect to you kenny but I'm 99.99% positive you are incorrect in your statement that 99.9% of people who bought spore knew that some form of securom was going to be on it. In fact I'm willing to bet that a great majority aren't tech savvy enough to even know what securom is and that it was even on the disc.

No disrespect to you. But when you consider the amount of customers EA has from games like the Sims series, the C&C series, Bioshock, etc. and there have been threads on the bbs on securom that had to be split because they grew so large. I respectfully think you're wrong. Before you even start on the other series, how many Simmers do you think have no idea what securom is?

[HystericalParoxysm]

I'd tend to agree with Saf on this one - while a lot of sims players know what SecuROM is, it's not like TS2 players are the only people who picked up Spore. Spore was one of the most anticipated and hyped games of the year - across the 'net, and offline. There are a LOT of offline players, too, or at least, individuals who don't participate whatsoever in the online communities. They just play and that's it and all the forum discussion in the world doesn't matter. I'd say individuals like that make up at least 50% of the players of games, if not more than 50%, but it's hard to tell as you can't really poll them online. ;)

[kennyinbmore]

If you read my post it wasn't only Simmers that I mentioned. As you said though, getting a definitive number would be rather difficult. However, Securom has been in EA games for quite some time. If you don't know EA uses securom as their copy protection method, you're a really casual gamer

[HystericalParoxysm]

And Spore is for casual, not hardcore gamers. I know you said not just simmers, but it is -mainly- simmers that have gone all crazylike about SecuROM. And even most of those don't really know what it does and what it's for besides being anti-piracy. Heck, all it takes is a glance at the BBS threads about it with the whole, "SecuROM broked my game and kicked my dog and ate my lunch!" to realize that people don't really know much about it.

[Sinthe]

I'd love it if the plaintiffs won. However, it's entirely possible that EA's lawyers/money would jack the legal system and prevent real justice from being served. At the very least, they'll get their day in court (pleeeease don't settle!). Such public allegations should spread awareness, at least.

[Delphy]

The problem is that the "awareness" that they are spreading is, quite frankly, not entirely correct. As previous posters have mentioned, there are a lot of people who *say* that SecuROM causes X or Y issue but may not actually have proof or a diagnostic breakdown of exactly whats going on. And besides, there are a great many people out there who bought the game, who DO have SecuROM... and have absolutely zero issues whatsoever. So... people going around saying "SecuROM broke my kitchen sink!" or "It broke my CD drive" really need to be smacked.

I totally support valid facts being spread - with actual proper documented issues of things that happen in reproducable ways - but just going on peoples Amazon reviews, or stuff that happens online really isn't the way to go since, well, everybody twists things in thier own way at some point.

[Danlee1]

And besides, there are a great many people out there who bought the game, who DO have SecuROM... and have absolutely zero issues whatsoever. So... people going around saying "SecuROM broke my kitchen sink!" or "It broke my CD drive" really need to be smacked.


"It broke my CD drive" really need to be smacked." huh? come on are you kinding me? I understand the "SecuROM broke my kitchen sink!" but the other one? I have virus and other malware on my computer before and they NEVER mess with my CD drive before. SecuROM been known to broke CD drive before Spore, it been known seen the day of when Sony first introduce it. I don't know about all the other stuffs, but I'm pretty sure the people who say SecuROM broke their CD drive is valid. Also yeah lot of people out there have spore and nothing happen to them, but that doesn't mean that the very few who actually have SecuROM mess up their computer is lying about their circumstance.

[HystericalParoxysm]

It does not -break- anything. It may temporarily prevent certain burning/emulation software from working but as soon as you remove SecuROM, it goes back to functioning perfectly. That's pretty different from breaking.

There are people who claim that SecuROM causes actual physical, permanent damage to their computers - i.e. breaking it - and that's who needs to be smacked, because it's just not possible and it doesn't work like that. It's fine to be upset about what it ACTUALLY does as it's not exactly full of hugs and puppies (even though the issues with it only affect a small percentage of people and plenty of folks - like myself - are able to run burning/emulation software with SecuROM just fine) but to be upset about things that it can't and won't do that are purely impossible is just -silly-.

It's not that people are outright lying - but there are a LOT of people who misunderstand what SecuROM does, and people who may have had problems that misrepresent what issues they've had with it... or, in many cases, have had unrelated problems shortly after installing a game with SecuROM and decided it was SecuROM's fault. Considering how many people get confused with simple stuff like the difference between "downloading" and "installing" it's no wonder they get confused with technical stuff like anti-piracy software that may interfere with certain other software functionality.

[Danlee1]

It true that it really don't break anything, but unless you can remove Securom from your computer then your dvd drive will stay like that forever. Yeah this may sound easy "remove Securom and your dvd drive will work again", but in reality it not that easy. You can't exactly press the uninstall button and remove Securom. Even for the computer savvy out there, remove Securom will take long hours and it an pain in the ass. For the average and unsavvy gamers this will prove difficult and maybe even impossible.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I wouldn't say it takes hours - and it's really not all that complicated. A quick Google search for "remove SecuROM" brings up plenty of good info, and there's always forums where you can ask questions if it's tricky. No, it's not as simple as just bringing up an Uninstaller like many programs, but it's entirely doable no matter your skill level if you just look for the info, read carefully, and ask questions if you're confused.

[kennyinbmore]

I wouldn't say it takes hours - and it's really not all that complicated. A quick Google search for "remove SecuROM" brings up plenty of good info, and there's always forums where you can ask questions if it's tricky. No, it's not as simple as just bringing up an Uninstaller like many programs, but it's entirely doable no matter your skill level if you just look for the info, read carefully, and ask questions if you're confused.
Actually didn't one of the maxoids do a thread on the main bbs, where they linked to the removal tool?

[HystericalParoxysm]

kennyinbmore - You very well might be right. I remember seeing it officially at one point - though I'm pretty sure that remover would only work 100% (getting out registry entries and stuff) for one version. They've done new versions in subsequent EPs, and Spore has its own version too.

Edit: http://thesims2.ea.com/help/detail.php?help_id=341 ... only has removers for certain EPs/SPs. Nothing for the Spore version that I can find officially yet.

[kennyinbmore]

kennyinbmore - You very well might be right. I remember seeing it officially at one point - though I'm pretty sure that remover would only work 100% (getting out registry entries and stuff) for one version. They've done new versions in subsequent EPs, and Spore has its own version too.

Edit: http://thesims2.ea.com/help/detail.php?help_id=341 ... only has removers for certain EPs/SPs. Nothing for the Spore version that I can find officially yet.

It's probably too soon for one for Spore. The Sims version didn't get created until the "uproar" had been going on for a bit

[Silver]

I’m a lurker here, but I’m going to chime in anyway. I understand and even appreciate the fact that Securom doesn’t actually do irreparable damage to my computer - If I can manage to remove it, and that’s a big if, since I don’t understand anything that I’ve researched in how to remove the bloody program from my computer, and I’m certainly not going to take it into a shop to have it removed for me. I’ve already researched that, and it will cost a bit of money that I don’t have right now. So, as it stands, my only real option is formatting the hard drive. Which means, everything is gone. All my tax records, all the family photos - some of which can never be replaced since the originals are gone - everything. Granted, before I go to that extreme, I’m researching other options and prices. Such as an external hard drive or even a jump drive. Assuming of course, that I can transfer the data without securom going along with it. Or if Securom sees those sort of devices as “questionable” and can disable them as well…

But the real problem here, in my opinion, is that EA Games didn’t give me a choice in the matter. They didn’t tell me it was there. They didn’t give me the option to research exactly what Securom was, what the potential problems it could cause were, or the ability to make the decision if I wanted to chance that being on my computer. From the research that I’ve done now, I can honestly tell you that I wouldn’t have wasted my money on any further games from them.

And I went to that link for the “SecuROM Uninstall Utilities” but in order to use this, I must uninstall the games. So, since I didn’t “acquire” the games, I have to either deal with this crap on my system or give up the games without a refund of the money I paid for those games. Which brings me back to the point I made before. Had I known it was there - and was given the opportunity to make the choice for myself - I wouldn’t be in this position, because I wouldn’t have purchased anything further from them. So at the very least here, I’m hoping that these lawsuits win, in as much as them having to supply a way to completely remove that crap from my system while still allowing me to use the games that I have enjoyed and legally purchased.

And for the record, I didn’t have a single problem with SecuRom, or any other issues with my computer, until I installed the latest version that came with Spore, and I assume AL. Plus, I haven’t installed anything other than Spore and AL, added to that, I haven't made any other changes to my system. So, for me, that pretty much confirms that my issues are being caused by Securom.

Edit: to clarify a point I was trying to make better.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Err, there's utterly no need to reformat to get rid of SecuROM. It requires deleting some files and registry entries, but that's -really- not too terribly difficult, and there's also no reason to lose all of your files if you -do- reformat. You can easily back up files to a disk, USB drive, or even just zip them up and email them to yourself. If you need help understanding the instructions, we have a computer hardware & software forum here where you can ask all manner of questions - SecuROM removal would fall under that.

You've also not said WHAT has gone wrong with your computer at all - and just because you hadn't changed anything else doesn't mean it's necessarily SecuROM. Computer issues can crop up unexpectedly when everything else had otherwise seemed fine - lord knows I've had enough random weird issues with my computers over the years. SecuROM temporarily disables the use of certain disk burning utilities and disk emulation utilities. Just about anything else would be well out of its range of possible issues and unrelated.

The point about not having a choice in it is a good one though - it's something that should be disclosed before install, and in fact, before purchase (since most stores won't let you return an opened game for anything but the same title). Even temporarily disabling certain utilities is a giant pain in the ass, and the fact that SecuROM is not removed when uninstalling the game it came with is also annoying. I do hope this lawsuit makes some difference in the way they do business. There are some companies which don't do such silly anti-piracy and DRM schemes and get additional sales because savvy gamers are even more willing to spend money on games they know won't make them jump through stupid hoops. It would be nice if EA learned from this experience... but knowing the way they operate, I just don't see it.

[kennyinbmore]

But the real problem here, in my opinion, is that EA Games didn’t give me a choice in the matter. They didn’t tell me it was there. They didn’t give me the option to research exactly what Securom was, what the potential problems it could cause were, or the ability to make the decision if I wanted to chance that being on my computer. From the research that I’ve done now, I can honestly tell you that I wouldn’t have wasted my money on any further games from them.



Just out of curiosity silver, what game have you ever played has given you an option on copy protection?

[Silver]

Good point HP, I didn’t mention the issues I’m having, which didn‘t help my point much, did it? Sorry about that.

In a nutshell it’s disabling my DVD - RW Drive. I can use the drive to play movies, or anything else, but I cannot burn the data disks that I need to be able to burn. The program I use is the standard issue, came preinstalled on my computer when I bought it, Nero Start Smart. So I can’t back up the files to a disk right now. I’m researching the USB drive (Where I’m from, they’re called jump drives) since I want to make sure that it’s not something that Securom will see as questionable and somehow disable, and to make sure they are something that would be considered an approved form of data transfer from my personal home computer to my working computer, and something that my boss would be willing to invest in. They supply all the disks used for work related data, because they retain ownership of the disk when I’m finished with it. And I really don’t want to supply a few jump drives to my boss. So, that’s still up in the air.

I’m also looking into an external hard drive, for my own personal files, but again - will Securom consider that to be questionable? At this point, I’m not entirely sure. The research I’ve been doing on Securom has answered a few questions, but I’m not one who understands a whole lot when it comes to technology. I’m also attempting to find out if there is a program along the lines of Nero, that Securom doesn’t see as a security threat. And I’ve no idea what emulation software even is - how’s that for techno stupid?

The idea of zipping the files and uploading them is one I hadn’t thought of, and would work well for my own personal files. But, not for my work files, I think my boss would have a heart attack if I did that.

So, absolutely everything else works well on my system, no changes have been made to it, and nothing else has been installed on it. So for me, the evidence all points towards Securom.

Just out of curiosity silver, what game have you ever played has given you an option on copy protection?

That’s also a good point. Most of the time you don’t have much of a choice when it comes to copyright protection. And granted, I don’t know much about any of this, but I’m thinking it isn’t a normal, or sound, business practice to put this type of program on an unsuspecting consumers computer. That tends to lead to the consumer looking elsewhere for their games. And as it’s obviously not working - Spore was officially pirated, what three days after it’s release? - the only people they are hurting is the people who actually pay for the game, so personally, I‘d say it‘s time for them to make a few changes.

But, aside form all that, wasn’t that part of the end result on the lawsuit against Sony for the other program they produced that caused all kinds of issues? That this type of program was supposed to be made known to the customer? I’m sure I’ve seen something like that in the research I‘ve been doing on Securom, I’ll have to look for it, but I’m sure I read that it was something they were supposed to do.

Edit: completely forgot part of a sentence.

[HystericalParoxysm]

SecuROM won't interfere with a USB drive. That I'm 100% sure of - I have Spore and AL and my USB drives work fine (I've got a couple of them of different brands). You can usually get a 1 or 2 gig USB drive for under $30 if you look around - usually plenty to back up any really important files.

External hard drives are also fine. Had two of them since SecuROM and they're fine. SecuROM -only- interferes with certain disk burning and emulation software. Anything else will be okay.

By the way, you don't need a special program to burn CDs/DVDs in most cases. Windows XP (and probably Vista) can do it itself. Insert a blank CD and it'll ask if you want to bring up the blank CD thing (I can't remember exactly what it's called off the top of my head). It'll open an empty folder for your CD drive - then you copy whatever files into there, and when you're done, you can right click in the window and choose the option to burn the files to a disk. SecuROM shouldn't interefere with that, and it's a lot easier and simpler to use than using most burning programs.

[kennyinbmore]

And as it’s obviously not working - Spore was officially pirated, what three days after it’s release? - the only people they are hurting is the people who actually pay for the game, so personally, I‘d say it‘s time for them to make a few changes.


That's something we agree on Silver. the difference between securom and the rootkit from the earlier case is that the rootkit cloaked itself. Securom is visible in the registry. The rootkit also took over processes of the computer and created security problems by leaving holes that could be exploited by a hacker. And yes part o fthe settlement was that they would have to disclose any additional software on their cds. I think this one might come out the same, in other words a settlement with the agreement to label the games with securom

SecuROM won't interfere with a USB drive. That I'm 100% sure of - I have Spore and AL and my USB drives work fine (I've got a couple of them of different brands). You can usually get a 1 or 2 gig USB drive for under $30 if you look around - usually plenty to back up any really important files.

Actually HP if he wants a deal, compusa is selling an 8 gig model for 17 bucks. I bought 3 :)

[HystericalParoxysm]

kennyinbmore - Heh, well, I did say under $30. I'm sure you can find some excellent deals if you shop around. :)