Is this soap plot insensitive?

[el_flel]

Over here in the sunny UK we have a soap called Eastenders which has just started a seemingly contraversial story surrounding cot death. Two female characters - Ronnie and Kat - were pregnant at the same time and gave birth very close together. One of these characters, Ronnie, lost her baby to cot death. In her grief she didn't tell anyone and instead rushed into Kat's home and swapped her own dead baby with Kat's, who was alive.

Currently there have been almost 9,000 complaints - the most in the show's 25 year history - and in response to this the producers have decided to end the storyline earlier than they had planned. The complaints have been about how the soap is showing a negative stereotype of "a bereaved mother [who] has been portrayed as deranged and unhinged".

Link for those who are interested: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12134763

So, basically, do you think that this plotline is insensitive, and do you think it has warranted the number of complaints that have been made?

[lauratje86]

I think it is insensitive, from what I've read about it, but then many if not most soap plots are, to be honest. People with all sorts of problems are portrayed in soaps, often negatively. I guess this one just strikes a chord with people - it's something that people are willing to actually complain about rather than just ignore or not even notice.

Personally, if I'd lost a baby to cot death, I'd rather a popular tv series was not suggesting that people who lose their babies to cot death may go a bit nuts and steal someone else's baby, but there you go. I expect that it does contribute to people's opinions and "knowledge" on a topic, but it is just a tv programme. I'm sure many/most people know that characters on soaps don't exactly lead normal lives!

[whiterider]

I don't think it's insensitive, no... no more than any other stereotypically negative portrayal of a character, and we all know Eastenders never has those! If people wanted realistic and well thought-out approaches to serious issues, they wouldn't be watching Eastenders.

I do understand that some people would find it incredibly difficult to watch; in that case, though, they should just not watch it. I do, however, think that it might be appropriate to move it to a post-watershed slot - but I've thought that for a long time, this story arc doesn't seem to be terribly worse than others they've done (not that I've ever followed it - but other people have the annoying habit of talking about it despite the fact that I very evidently don't give a crap).

[RoseCity]

I've never seen Eastenders, but I can't help posting. I don't think the plot twist was insensitive, but I know that anytime a tragedy is portrayed on television, they run the risk that people who've experienced similar tragedies will be upset.
But the first thought that came to my mind was how ridiculous this plot device is. Because by the time you have a baby home from the hospital, you know what it looks like - newborns don't all look the same. Mix ups typically have happened in the hospital before women had really seen their babies. So as soon as the woman whose baby got stolen saw the dead one, she'd know it wasn't her baby. And there the story would end.

[Sparklycookie]

I think the plot is incredibly dumb- as my mum pointed out, Kat would surely recognise her own baby! Plus how would they not hear Ronnie going up and stealing it? And the whole thing with Charlie is just stupid. Can't wait for this storyline to end.

[geallach]

Didn't this happen in 'Footballers Wives' a few years ago, except in that scenario, the baby was smothered by a dog? The woman who stole the baby actuallly rubbed fake tan on her dead baby to give it darker skin to match the living baby. It was a post-watershed show, but it was still insensitive, yet I never heard of people complaining about it. The storyline in 'Eastenders', while ridiculous and unbelievable as all 'Eastenders' storylines are, are pretty much in keeping with the very low standards of scriptwriting and credulity of the show. Most soaps that attempt to deal with serious issues make a mess of it, particularly of that soap is 'Eastenders', and I think that if you watch it, you should be expecting that it is not going to handle issues with great sensitivity or intelligence. Kat would in real life have recognised her baby; they may not have all the differences of adults, but there are obviously going to be variations in features. This storyline implies that not only were these babies born on the same day, but they are also mystically identical.

But even 'Eastenders' isn't as bad as the main soap in my country, which steals plots from 'The Simpsons' and other shows, and which recently tried to cover domestic violence against men and then completely screwed it up.

[appelsapgodin]

Duh, it's a soap. The equivalent of crappy storylines and far-sought plot twists. That's what you watch it for.

That said, I do think this is an especially crappy storyline. As mentioned in some above post, the mother would know it wasn't hers and she would probably also know which baby it was if the wome knew eachother. (It has been years since I saw some Eastenders, so I'm not up to date with characters, but I know the basics and setting.)

[Robodl95]

I truly have to question soap operas, I've never watched one (and don't plan starting!) but any show that runs for 20 years is going to get dull. The poor writers have to come up with something and it's usually insanely stupid from what I've heard. Stories that never end generally are not good ones.

It's sort of insensitive but a lot of TV is.

[Rectos Dominos]

Well like all soaps they just wanted to write something dramatic, it is a soap opera after all, not to offend a certain group of people. It's insensitive if you let be insensitive.
negative stereotype of "a bereaved mother [who] has been portrayed as deranged and unhinged".

Wha :wtf: I never heard that one before. Thank you for creating a new stereotype. To bad there is no sarcastic clap smiley.

It's sort of insensitive but a lot of TV is.
Same with real life.

[wickedblue]

Just because you haven't heard of a stereotype doesn't mean it was made up the poster. That stereotype is very much a real one.

As far as this plot goes, yes it is insensitive and not the tiniest bit believable but most soap plots are. I think it's probably best for it to not be on the show but as far as plots go, it's nothing new in a soap.

[RoseCity]

I wasn't thinking about it being a soap - in the soap universe, people can die and then come back to life, etc. So now I've reconsidered and think her idea to switch the babies was brilliant.

[Rectos Dominos]

Just because you haven't heard of a stereotype doesn't mean it was made up the poster. That stereotype is very much a real one.


Um I meant the people who made the complaints. I think I am going to have to start making disclaimers on all my posts. :faceslap:

[Black_Barook!]

Wait they're ending a show because of a... soap commercial? I'm slightly confused here.

[Petchy]

Wait they're ending a show because of a... soap commercial? I'm slightly confused here.

A "Soap" is a type of TV show over here, often called a "Soap Opera" it is a unique type of show which has overlapping plot lines going about many character's Day-to-day lives. The episodes are on almost every night and occasionally large story arks take over into prime focus for a big "crash" or "finale" [kinda like the end of a Series - see Coronation Street's Tram crash fail] and then all order is restored in a couple of weeks. :)

[Cloudburst]

I don't think it's insensitive at all really. If it had been some random character that switched the babies then you could say it's ridiculous and conforming to the stereotype (which I'd never heard about incidentally), but Ronnie (the character) has had metal issues in the past, and clearly still does. Plus she's already lost two babies (or three if you consider she lost one of them twice, so it's not surprising that's where they took the storyline, and it was entirely fitting with her character. I think some of these people who are so concerned need to step back and consider that the show isn't real, and that the majority of people are not going to take it seriously, let alone start basing judgements on people based on what they've seen on TV. You have to question in fact, whether the people who take it too far, such as those giving the actress abuse in the street are entirey metally stable themselves.

[whiterider]

Black Barook!, think "soap" as in "soap box" as in "Nobody cares, will you shut up and make way for some good TV please?" "No!".

[Rawra]

I hate soap opera...

[HystericalParoxysm]

Actually they're called "soaps" because back in the day, most of the sponsors for the shows (they've been running pretty much since the rise of TV - some of the long-running ones like All My Children were originally in black and white) were soap companies, trying to sell products to the housewives watching their shows. ;)

[paksetti]

'As The World Turns' existed before television, it was originally a radio show.
At least I think that's the one.

I still think that most soap plots are kinda stupid.. this seems no different.
But that's just my opinion.

[el_flel]

Wha :wtf: I never heard that one before. Thank you for creating a new stereotype. It's definitely not a new stereotype. Women are constantly represented as being emotional and irrational and they have been represented this way for many many years. Go read a bunch of news stories surrounding murder and you'll see that when a woman commits a crime the media are more likely to portray her as suffering from some kind of mental condition - PMS, postpartum depression, etc - than they are a man who commits the same crime. I think that's what people are pissed off about and in some respects I can understand it. I get annoyed every time a person with mental health issues is portrayed as weird or dangerous because all it does is fit the ill-informed stereotype.

I think it probably is an insensitive storyline but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be shown. TV programmes are always pushing boundaries and reporting on things that are likely to offend people; this is no exception. On one hand I can understand the concerns of the people who have complained - people do believe what they see on TV whether the source is credible or not, and I'm sure these people just don't want the stereotype of the 'crazed woman' to be perpetuated. OTOH people do do strange things when they are in shock or grieving and whilst this storyline isn't representative of all mothers who unexpectedly lose a child, I think it is kind of important to raise awareness that it can affect people in this way.

Wait they're ending a show because of a... soap commercial? I'm slightly confused here.Are you reading the same thing as everyone else?! Soap opera, not soap cleansing product! :lol:

[Sparklycookie]

After the ZOMGSTACEYISAMURDERER storyline and this one, I don't hold much hope for the future! :faceslap:

[Sunbee]

So where's King Solomon?

[treeag]

So where's King Solomon?

First thing that came to mind :lol:

[Willow's Tara]

Cloud- Are you kidding? They are giving the actress grief just for that? She was only doing her job, she shouldn't be getting crap from no one. This reminds me of Buffy (The vampire slayer) when Willow broke up with Oz and got together with Tara, the actress who played her Amber had gotten crap from some viewers who blamed her for the break up of Oz and Willow (Last time I checked she did not write the script, she almost didn't even get the part of Tara).

Now I never watched this soap opera but to be honest it's just a TV show. Why does everyone have to get up about it? This also reminds me when I read people complained that the actor who played Artie in Glee was not really disabled and apparently people started whining because of that, and Health Ledger when he died his funeral got trashed because he played a gay guy in a movie, Seriously? It's just a TV show or a TV character. And alot of people react differently to the death of their own child, if I lost my child that easily, especially from what you said THREE! (And a I am guy btw) I would probably have a mental breakdown.

If this character had mental problems before, and lost three babies before then who can bloody blame her for doing that, she was probably also in denial when she switched the baby and wanted to pretend this child was really hers.

People seriously need to get a grip and realize it's only a show. And most of all leave the damn actress alone, have no clue who the hell she is but giving an actress crap for doing her job so she can get money so she can survive in this stupid world is really low and the same goes all for the actors that I have mentioned and others, infact this goes for everyone who is just doing their jobs.

HP- Wow had no clue about that, I always wonder why they were called that

[iibeccax]

this storyline made me feel sick, i stopped watching eastenders now

[RoseCity]

It's definitely not a new stereotype. Women are constantly represented as being emotional and irrational and they have been represented this way for many many years. Go read a bunch of news stories surrounding murder and you'll see that when a woman commits a crime the media are more likely to portray her as suffering from some kind of mental condition - PMS, postpartum depression, etc - than they are a man who commits the same crime. I think that's what people are pissed off about and in some respects I can understand it. I get annoyed every time a person with mental health issues is portrayed as weird or dangerous because all it does is fit the ill-informed stereotype.

I think it probably is an insensitive storyline but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be shown. TV programmes are always pushing boundaries and reporting on things that are likely to offend people; this is no exception. On one hand I can understand the concerns of the people who have complained - people do believe what they see on TV whether the source is credible or not, and I'm sure these people just don't want the stereotype of the 'crazed woman' to be perpetuated. OTOH people do do strange things when they are in shock or grieving and whilst this storyline isn't representative of all mothers who unexpectedly lose a child, I think it is kind of important to raise awareness that it can affect people in this way.
I agree - I'm not sure you can call something real a stereotype - post-partum depression is real and grief from the death of child is real. And then each person would react to those things in their own way. The reason I think it's not insensitive is, for example, we see people murdered on television all the time, but no one complains that those often ridiculous plots are insensitive to people who've had friends or family who were murdered. Edit: Maybe people do complain - I don't know.

[wickedblue]

I agree - I'm not sure you can call something real a stereotype -

What?

You can call something real a stereotype. The problem is that while some people in a certain demographic might hold certain aspects of a stereotype, the stereotype assumes that all people in that demographic fit the stereotype and it reduces them to their stereotype making it more difficult for them to be seen and judged as an individual based on their individual characteristics.

[RoseCity]

I understand what you're saying, but if you call that a stereotype (I'm assuming you're referring to the crazed, grief stricken mother) then you wouldn't have much content on television. Is showing a man cheating on his wife saying that all men are cheaters or just that particular character? If a female character longs to have a baby, is that saying that all women long to have a baby?
Edit: I think something becomes a negative stereotype in the overview. If the only roles or the majority of roles available for African Americans are as criminals or, for women, are as crazed, grief stricken mothers then a group is being stereotyped.

[el_flel]

Forgot to mention this last time: I don't think the fact that Kat would recognise her own baby actually registered to Ronnie when she made the swap. Her grief and shock has caused her to become irrational. She probably didn't think as far as "they might realise it's not their kid"; she is concerned about replacing what she lost.

this storyline made me feel sick, i stopped watching eastenders nowWould you mind elaborating why? Your post doesn't give much away.

[MsScribble]

It's definitely not a new stereotype. Women are constantly represented as being emotional and irrational and they have been represented this way for many many years. Go read a bunch of news stories surrounding murder and you'll see that when a woman commits a crime the media are more likely to portray her as suffering from some kind of mental condition - PMS, postpartum depression, etc - than they are a man who commits the same crime. I think that's what people are pissed off about and in some respects I can understand it. I get annoyed every time a person with mental health issues is portrayed as weird or dangerous because all it does is fit the ill-informed stereotype.

That bothers me too, as well as the constant imagery of women portrayed as victims on tv. I don't watch any shows that do this.

I'm also aware of how people with mental health issues have to battle with the shockingly false stereotype that's been created through tv and media.

We don't get eastenders here but that storyline would make me tune out. We have enough horrible things in rl - fictional storylines should be entertaining, dramatic, funny etc. You could argue that it was dramatic, but given the number of people watching that episode who had lost a child makes me think it wasn't thought through, and yes, insensitive.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

Didn't this happen in 'Footballers Wives' a few years ago, except in that scenario, the baby was smothered by a dog? The woman who stole the baby actuallly rubbed fake tan on her dead baby to give it darker skin to match the living baby. It was a post-watershed show, but it was still insensitive, yet I never heard of people complaining about it. The storyline in 'Eastenders', while ridiculous and unbelievable as all 'Eastenders' storylines are, are pretty much in keeping with the very low standards of scriptwriting and credulity of the show. Most soaps that attempt to deal with serious issues make a mess of it, particularly of that soap is 'Eastenders', and I think that if you watch it, you should be expecting that it is not going to handle issues with great sensitivity or intelligence. Kat would in real life have recognised her baby; they may not have all the differences of adults, but there are obviously going to be variations in features. This storyline implies that not only were these babies born on the same day, but they are also mystically identical.

But even 'Eastenders' isn't as bad as the main soap in my country, which steals plots from 'The Simpsons' and other shows, and which recently tried to cover domestic violence against men and then completely screwed it up.

think maybe the storywriters were playing too much Sims 3 when they came up with it?

alas, such are the reasons i dont watch soaps. many, if not all, are so incredibly ridiculous and far-fetched with ideas like not recognizing your own freaking baby that it ruins the entire immersion process and leaves me with this face: >:/
for the rest of my day.

funny, how decent scifi writers can make even the furthest fetches seem believable, yet something thats supposed to be based on Earth and Earth life is often bastardized to the point of disbelief.

[wickedblue]

funny, how decent scifi writers can make even the furthest fetches seem believable, yet something thats supposed to be based on Earth and Earth life is often bastardized to the point of disbelief.

Funny. I never thought about it that way but it's so true. I find it much easier to believe the truly outrageous things in Sci-fi than it is to believe half of what is in soaps.

Then there's that whole bad acting and predictable plots thing. All they do is continuously cycle the same story with different actors.

I used to watch soaps - General Hospital and All My Children to be exact and I remember enjoying them even while picking them apart the way I do everything I watch but I - I don't know when it happened- but I just no longer enjoy them because the storylines are so damn ridiculous. And nauseatingly predictable.

[TheLB]

I'm not sure it's so insensitive. I mean, yes, it depicts a single mom as being emotionally unstable, but to my understanding, it doesn't depict all single moms as emotionally unstable. The fact that people complain about it enforces the theory that it is impossible for a single mother who just lost a child to be emotionally unstable, which imho might be just as destructive as the other. I would take the "single mom" out of the equation and say "this person just lost a child and became understandably upset and possibly slightly unhinged, and they just happen to be a single mother."

For all we know, the character could have had an underlying mental illness that caused her to act in such a manner. Or not, I mean, the loss of a child is a very serious, tragic event that could have a huge impact on the person. People react to grief in very different ways, so it's not unbelievable that some people would react in irrational (and frankly, disturbing) ways.

Of course, context is everything, and we simply do not know how another character would have reacted in this situation. Had the same scenario happened to a male character who took the typical tough guy stance (which I doubt is realistic, but who knows) then yes, I would say that might be the grounds for sexism. For all I (take this with a grain of salt, because I know nothing about the series) know, this act was just in character, being a single mother notwithstanding.

Unfortunately, soap operas like to tackle serious issues like this, which will undoubtedly cause people to have knee-jerk reactions.

Also, apparently I can't spell today.

[Robodl95]

That bothers me too, as well as the constant imagery of women portrayed as victims on tv. I don't watch any shows that do this.

For women to quit being victims you also have to deal with the male stereotype of being football or sex addicts.... I can't think of any show where the woman broke the mans heart...

[el_flel]

I don't think the issue was with single mums because AFAIK the character is in a relationship, it was more the cliche of the overly emotional and unstable woman which people had a problem with.

Oh and re: a parent recognising their own child and so this wouldn't work - apparently either the 'stolen' child or it's parent had been rushed into hospital and so the child and parent hadn't spent much time together. That was how the writers [tried to] got around that issue. If it worked or not I don't know.

[geallach]

I heard that due to the level of complaints, the show announced that they would be ending the storyline early, in fact it was supposed to be over by now. But according to my mother, the storyline is still running. I suppose the channel were testing the waters to see if complaints would increase if the storyline continued, which apparently has not been the case.

I think one issue here might be how attached audiences become to characters. I have heard of actors who play villains in soaps being harassed on the streets by viewers. And weren't there campaigns when characters in 'Coronation Street' were imprisoned for crimes they did not commit? People might hate to see Ronnie lose yet another chance to be a mother, and also her portrayal as a crazed grieving mother. Or they might hate what is happening to Kat and Alfie. The 'Eastenders' storyline with the most complaints was the one when, after finally finding her, Ronnie's daughter was killed right in front of her, so maybe fans are angry not just at the depiction of a grieving mother and the ludicrous storyline, but also at the fact that Ronnie never gets a break.

Even if Kat did not spend much time with her baby, is it such an impossible idea that Alfie, who was caring for him, would recognise him? Even if he was not his biological son, he still loved the boy and cared for him. Or are fathers incapable of bonding with their children? Well, looking at the way they portray grieiving mothers, I suppose fathers might not get off either.

[el_flel]

The actress that plays Ronnie has had someone come up to her in the street and say something horrible. I'm quite disturbed that people are unable to tell the actions of a fictitious person on a soap opera apart from real life.

[lilac_sim]

The actress that plays Ronnie has had someone come up to her in the street and say something horrible. I'm quite disturbed that people are unable to tell the actions of a fictitious person on a soap opera apart from real life.

this always happens here in the uk el_flel! lol
I have also heard of people going up to other actors and slapping them for being an abusive person in a soap! one was a wife beater and got lots of people shouting at him in the street and stuff for playing this person on the soap.
It just goes to show there are some people who actually must believe the storylines are real or why would they do this lol :wtf:

I THINK the person had just came out of hospital with her baby and was celebrating downstairs in the pub they live in and that was when the baby was stolen. BUT i would of still known it wasn't my child. Its the same when they are in the hospital nurseries, you don't go and take another child by mistake or i never did! :blink:

I actually don't EVER watch eastenders as the stories are way over the top and VERY unrealistic and was a bit annoyed when they won ALL the soap award catergories at the recent tv awards as i believe its crap!

So i did think it could happen (as in a severly emotional women could do something , esp when she has lost other babies too)
BUT they need to bring across the fact that SHE is emotionally disturbed to the viewers to make it not seem like all mothers would do this.
The problem i did have with it, is what i mentioned earlier, the fact that kat didn't even realise it wasn't her child AT ALL! :BLINK:
I do really understand how mothers who have lost their children can think its insensitive and unrealistic . and i can understand them being offended BUT as most of us have already said it IS A TV SHOW!:wtf: