Tim Tebow: A good role model or not?

[fraroc]

I've been meaning to make a topic out of this for a while, so here goes.

In my honest opinion, no. He's NOT a good role model at all. I know that everyone here at MTS seems to be extremley tolerant of homosexual individuals and against using the bible to condone hatred. Well,we all know that Tebow is, in all respective purposes, a total evangelical Jesus-freak and Jesus-freaks....can be a bit misguided... I remember back when a few of my friends attended the Gay Pride Parade in NYC after Same-gender Marriage was made legal, they told me that Jesus-freaks were going insane on the other side of the street. They were holding up signs with portraits of govoner Chris Cuomo saying "The Antichrist is Here", "All homosexuals are peverted demons",and "1 Corinthians 6:9, Leviticus 20:13" while shouting "PUT SATAN BEHIND YOU!!! PUT JESUS IN FRONT OF YOU!!!"

Tebow is really big in involvement in his Evangelical church, and I read an article where it confirmed that he refused to participate in It Gets Better and before he joined Denver, he did an anti-abortion ad (I don't like abortion either, and its not even the point) but it was for Focus on the Family, who like the Westboro Baptist Cult...i mean Church. Protest against all gay rights.

I really honestly hope Tim Tebow is smart enough to know that's not what God is all about. God is about love and caring, not hatred and bigotry....If he does say something hurtful about gay people or verbally attack a gay couple in public telling them that they're going to Hell, Words would not coherently describe how disgusted and sickened I would be.

[VerDeTerre]

He's the guy that prays before games and when he scores? It's weird - it's like he believes God is on his side, but no one else's. Apparently, no one else who plays on any other team has any pull with God or is holy enough to beat him. :P

From my perspective, anyone who does that is so egocentric that they make a poor role model and a poor model of a Christian as well. And you are 100% right - if he's preaching hate he makes a poor role model, and again, a poor Christian.

Best thing I've seen yet: TeBowie: Together as one! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHB0o9lCizQ)

Also, for anyone who feels they need to quote the old testament as the end-all on the biblical discussion of homosexuality, there's this (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/), this (http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/drlaura/bl_drlaura009.htm), and this (http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2012/01/rick-santorum-might-want-to-double.html).

[Mistermook]

He's a football player. He's categorically only a good role model for something if you're looking for someone to look up for playing sports. People who look to people who play sports as role models for things outside of sports, because of their fame and/or skill in sports? That's pretty misguided in my opinion. On the other hand, people are frequently misguided with even less reasonable people and things they look up to. In that respect I suppose knowing that it's unlikely that Tebow has committed any murders or crimes against humanity is at least a point in his favor. It's no worse in that respect for having unreasonable emulations of actors and actresses as role models, a profession best known for its ease in adopting false projections of personality.

[fraroc]

But the thing is, many people are saying that "oh, Tim Tebow is bringing something that's been missing from this generation of teens for a long time, FAITH." Umm, excuse the hell out of me, but that type of faith has also said some of the most vile things possible about not just gays, but people that are not a part of their church. Some of the hate speech from churches is some of the most disgusting shit I have ever heard.

People that think its a good thing that kids want to be evangelists, but here are the hard hitting questions they need to hear. Do YOU want you kids to hear that it's all right to violently and forcefully rebuke a person for being gay? Do YOU want your kids to think it's OK to say that all Jews are going to hell just because they believe a little differently from Christians? Do YOU want your kids to think that all these minority groups should die just for existing?

[VerDeTerre]

Mistermook, I think you are making a good point that we need to keep perspective: What'sHisFace is an athlete and not an icon. On the other hand, he's a celebrity and they live in the public eye, so I look to him as a human being and am sorely disappointed.

Doesn't he, himself, try to put himself out there as some kind of a model when he publicly gets down on one knee to pray for touch downs and to thank God for his victories?

[Mistermook]

Some of the hate speech from churches is some of the most disgusting shit I have ever heard.
Tim Tebow is not a churches. Until he starts opening his mouth from atop a steeple I'll try not to confuse the two.

People that think its a good thing that kids want to be evangelists
Which people? Not many that I've heard, and I live in the Bible Belt surrounded by Southern Baptists.

Do YOU want you kids to hear that it's all right to violently and forcefully rebuke a person for being gay? Do YOU want your kids to think it's OK to say that all Jews are going to hell just because they believe a little differently from Christians? Do YOU want your kids to think that all these minority groups should die just for existing?
No I don't, but on the other hand as much as I don't personally like Tim Tebow I don't know that I can recall him personally saying any of those things. Conservatives aren't all Ann Coulter, and not every guy playing football saying he's an evangelical spent his weekend dragging homosexuals down dirt roads behind his football truck.

What he does do and say is annoying enough that I don't really think it's well adjusted or constructive to project what he might say or do into the future, simply because of his associations. After all, he's getting paid to be a quarterback and for the most part he's acting like a running back. If we were going simply by his associations and not what he actually does, we should be expecting Dan Marino. Or we could peg him as a celebrity, declare that celebrities are all boozing drug addicts based on stereotypes, and wonder why the guy isn't smoking enough crack...yet.

Like I said in another thread, I don't even think he's being a "bad Christian." I think he's being a fairly normal Christian, because most Christians (and indeed, most people altogether) have a disconnect between "say" and "do," and most people have issues somewhere where they feel strongly enough about something that they're an annoying douchebag about it.

If it gets to be enough of a distraction his coach and teammates will take care of it, and he'll have a choice between playing football and preaching on the field. On the other hand, as long as people talk about him for doing that, and buying tickets to games based on the hype surrounding him, I don't see how it's any more of a problem or issue for the sport in general than Dennis Rodman used to be. Because that's exactly what it reminds me of, the same urge to stand apart from your teammates. That's not automatically a bad thing, but once it becomes that bad thing professional sports are remarkably cut throat about such things I think.

And after defending him like that, let me just say it brings me great joy to see him crying on the sidelines each and every time it happens. Even I find myself tuning into his games, just to see if he'll have a masculinity break-down on national television each time. I'm not ashamed to say I find that terribly entertaining.

[Robodl95]

Doesn't he, himself, try to put himself out there as some kind of a model when he publicly gets down on one knee to pray for touch downs and to thank God for his victories?
It's wrong for him to pray in public? I don't think he's trying to be a model, he's just executing his faith and what he thinks is right. If he thinks that you should pray for touchdowns and thank God for victories then he should do that. I wouldn't do it because my faith is different but I still wouldn't change my beliefs because I'm in the public eye. Be true to who you are.

[crocobaura]

But the thing is, many people are saying that "oh, Tim Tebow is bringing something that's been missing from this generation of teens for a long time, FAITH." Umm, excuse the hell out of me, but that type of faith has also said some of the most vile things possible about not just gays, but people that are not a part of their church. Some of the hate speech from churches is some of the most disgusting shit I have ever heard.

People that think its a good thing that kids want to be evangelists, but here are the hard hitting questions they need to hear. Do YOU want you kids to hear that it's all right to violently and forcefully rebuke a person for being gay? Do YOU want your kids to think it's OK to say that all Jews are going to hell just because they believe a little differently from Christians? Do YOU want your kids to think that all these minority groups should die just for existing?


FAITH is just another name for politics and power. Religion has always been used by people to control other people, that's why in times when religion was a big thing, the church had alsmost as much power if not more than the kings. Even now, if you look at monarchies, it's the church that carries out the ceremony to make them kings. So, it's only normal that they do not approve of people who have their own opinions and question their views on certain issues, and so those so called evangelists will try and bully and manipulate the masses into submission so they can be used as tools to further their plans and gain even more power.

[VerDeTerre]

It's wrong for him to pray in public? I don't think he's trying to be a model, he's just executing his faith and what he thinks is right. If he thinks that you should pray for touchdowns and thank God for victories then he should do that. I wouldn't do it because my faith is different but I still wouldn't change my beliefs because I'm in the public eye. Be true to who you are. You're making a good point. There really is nothing wrong with praying in public, although praying for a touchdown is asinine. Players on the opposing team could easily do the same thing; who should God listen to?

Do you believe he is sincere? His dramatic gesture coupled with the drop to one knee suggests a desire to draw attention in a showy way to his actions. Maybe praying isn't wrong, but theatrical praying...at a football game...for a touchdown....um, yeah. :giggler:

[Robodl95]

FAITH is just another name for politics and power. Religion has always been used by people to control other people, that's why in times when religion was a big thing, the church had alsmost as much power if not more than the kings. Even now, if you look at monarchies, it's the church that carries out the ceremony to make them kings. So, it's only normal that they do not approve of people who have their own opinions and question their views on certain issues, and so those so called evangelists will try and bully and manipulate the masses into submission so they can be used as tools to further their plans and gain even more power.
When someone talks about their faith they're generally referring to their personal connection with religion/God.
Religion has always been used by people to control other people, that's why in times when religion was a big thing, the church had alsmost as much power if not more than the kings. Even now, if you look at monarchies, it's the church that carries out the ceremony to make them kings.
People like to control other people - that happens without religion.
So, it's only normal that they do not approve of people who have their own opinions and question their views on certain issues, and so those so called evangelists will try and bully and manipulate the masses into submission so they can be used as tools to further their plans and gain even more power.
This is again human nature. I hear plenty of disaproval from non-religious people about religious topics. Plenty of religious people are open-minded even if their religion isn't, there are also plenty of non-religious people who are certainly not open minded.

You're making a good point. There really is nothing wrong with praying in public, although praying for a touchdown is asinine. Players on the opposing team could easily do the same thing; who should God listen to?
Do you believe he is sincere? His dramatic gesture coupled with the drop to one knee suggests a desire to draw attention in a showy way to his actions. Maybe praying isn't wrong, but theatrical praying...at a football game...for a touchdown....um, yeah.
It's hard to say, how you pray really varies between individuals and denominations. I don't know enough to say whether that way is normal for evangelists/him.
who should God listen to?
Good question and I don't think anyone can answer that.

[whiterider]

It's sort of a self-defeating question, really. Presumably, most of the people who think that teens having an overtly "Christian" role model is an important thing, are Christians themselves. And given that according to Christian beliefs, all humans are sinners and incapable of achieving perfection, the only role model who stands up to Biblical standards is Jesus. Those who don't give a shit about the Biblical standard, theoretically, are not Christian, and probably therefore aren't that impressed with this Tebow guy.

[VerDeTerre]

The idea that that all people are sinners describes certain Christian groups and believers, not all. I, for one, would be impressed with someone who lived their faith through service to others and who strove to be loving as Jesus taught in the New Testament. Someone like that would make an excellent role model.

[crocobaura]

When someone talks about their faith they're generally referring to their personal connection with religion/God.


It's funny how it's Ok to have a personal connection with god and religion yet if you have another personal connectin with some other imaginary entity you're deemed a lunatic.

[Robodl95]

It's sort of a self-defeating question, really. Presumably, most of the people who think that teens having an overtly "Christian" role model is an important thing, are Christians themselves. And given that according to Christian beliefs, all humans are sinners and incapable of achieving perfection, the only role model who stands up to Biblical standards is Jesus. Those who don't give a shit about the Biblical standard, theoretically, are not Christian, and probably therefore aren't that impressed with this Tebow guy.
Jesus is a holy figure, no one's suggesting worshipping Tebow. If you're a Christian parent wanting a good role model for your kids you probably like one with similar beliefs to yours. This is true of everyone, you want you kids to look up to your perception of good people, not alcoholics, criminals, etc.

[VerDeTerre]

Seriously getting off topic - Unless you think TeBow is trying to dominate or control the fans by praying? Maybe he is....

[Mistermook]

Now I want to see a sect of Tebow worshipers, and attend their services to see them perform rituals in the name of the Touchdown Messiah. Bonus points for the fact it would likely irritate the shit out of Tebow.

[SimsLover50]

I honestly didn't know who Tebow was/is.

I do not personally consider sports figures/athletes to be role models. I think some of the fannish worship of athletes is a little out of control, as well as their salaries.

The person who runs the local soup kitchen while holding another job, gives to charity, helps the poor, does good deeds, and is kind to others is more of a role model, than someone who is a role model simply because of their skill at a sport... which is what an athletic career really is, and a highly paid job too.

Religion is neither an indicator of goodness or badness or indicator that someone is a role model for me. Spontaneous religous fervor seems more genuine to me. Ritualized or overly staged religious fervor can seem like they are doing it for other reasons than their faith- such as to preach, set an example, or superstition. (If I don't do my ritual before the game, I won't win), etc.

[VerDeTerre]

Ritualized or overly staged religious fervor can seem like they are doing it for other reasons than their faith- such as to preach, set an example, or superstition. (If I don't do my ritual before the game, I won't win), etc. First, I have to say that I agreed with everything you said, including the part about not knowing who TeBow is (I only learned about him a couple of days ago when someone shared that video - see my link in an earlier post) and I do like the way you expressed it. But I had not considered this last part before. Maybe that's it! He has OCD!

[Yazoo]

I am not here to be a bitch. But to say that "Tebow is a Jesus-Freak" then to degrade those kind of people. That makes you no less better, then someone that is against homosexuals or racist people. I am sorry, but its true. I may be a lesbian, but I will NOT judge someone.

Or anything like that, Tebow is a good guy, he really is. Hell, the poor guys get SO MUCH shit for him being religious. This thread kind of makes me wonder, if the girl who was shot in Columbine High School, for defending her religion to the shooter. And when he asked why she believed in God, he shot her.

So, did she deserve to get shot for being what you call a "Jesus-Freak" or "Martyr"? Seriously, take in the thoughts that there are OTHER people that protest against gay rights. Hmm! For example there are people that aren't even religious that think homosexuality is disgusting. And yet, you pin point it all on religious people. Lets face the facts here. In my eyes, this thread is putting down religious people, and saying they are the ONLY people that despise homosexuality. Hmm, I have had people throw their damn cans of pop at me, calling me a fucking fag (Literally their words, don't mind the language) and guess what? They do not believe in God.

Oh, by the Tebow is going to a Fun Raiser in a place that no one would ever go too, (Montana, I only heard this from a friend. I, however, do not live there, so I'll not be able to meet Tebow) and its for Religious reasons. Hmm, bad guy, huh? Yeah, right. And dear goodness, NOT Evangelical or Christians or Catholics or any other religions are like what you are portraying them as. If that's the case, then I hate myself for being a lesbian, and I am going to Hell. That's a great thought to have. I'm sorry but to get crap for being who you are, is racist. To be who are, and get dissed on, is discriminating.

Bottom line, if I ever have kids. I will let them choose whether that they go to church or not. But I am not going to fill their minds that all Religious people are spitting against Homosexuals. Because I do have religious friends that actually hang out with me, and help me, and even MEET my girlfriends.And one of my friends...Well, she is Catholic, and she wanted to be with a girl. But I guess her religious friends and family, puke to the thought of her being bi. No, they are actually supportive.

If you think EVERYONE person that is Religious is like that, they you are sorely mistaken, hun.

Yes, God is very forgiving, and loving. But hate to break it too you, people aren't. I will repeat myself one more time, and in caps even:

NOT ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE HATE GAY PEOPLE!

But seeing I'm a Christian...I hate myself. I find myself disgusting. And I can't stand looking at myself in the mirror because I'm a dyke, a fag, a lesbian, a homosexual, and a disease to this world. (And sadly, I do hate myself, but not because I'm a lesbian. I find myself ugly, because of all of the bullying and the torment I had going through over the years. And my teacher was a religious woman, went to church every Sunday. And she was the one that hugged me, when I cried. She was the one that stopped our studies, just to talk too me through the class period. She was the one that let me cry on her shoulder, when someone called me a "fag" and most of the time they were Atheists. For you information Atheists do not believe in God, or Satan. They do not believe in Heaven or Hell. But hey...I had a teacher that believed in God, that helped me throughout the school years.) But after reading this, I guess all religious people hate me. And that I should hate myself. And just to let you know, there are Homosexuals that believe in God, and that Jesus is their savior.


P.S. Everyone prays before the game. Every player and coach gets on their knee, and prays. I watched a scene where they were in the Giants locker room, they all got on one knee, and prayed. Hmm.

:cry: :cry:

Sorry for saying anything. . .But now. . .I have another reason to hate myself :cry:

[fraroc]

You know damn well that I'm talking about those churches that discriminate against gay people, not all do. I went to a catholic school and they made it oh-so-clear that gays do NOT go to Hell and that God loves all living things, no matter what. Unfortunatly, there will always be evil, disgusting people in the world and I DO hope Tebow is smart enough to stay the hell away from them, and if he's not, then fuck him, he deserves no respect from me or anyone with a brain.

[Yazoo]

Yeah...Once again, sorry for saying anything...It was stupid to open my trap, wasn't it?

[fraroc]

Yeah...Once again, sorry for saying anything...It was stupid to open my trap, wasn't it?

Nonetheless, I can say that I am proud of the fact that you openly say your orientation! :gjob: I mean, if I was gay, I would definitley have trouble coming out of the closet, and I'd probably end up marrying a woman or living a single life. But you, you make it loud and clear about who you are!!

PS: if some BITCH comes up you and calls you rotten names just because your a lesbian, don't take that shit, fight back!

[Yazoo]

I couldn't hide it anymore. Not to mention I was caught making out with a girl. Yeahhhh. That was during my school years, I still get it. But not as bad. But yeah. It wasn't always all girls, that called me that. It was mainly guys. The girls were for some reason more supportive. I did make friends with a jock, that surprised me.

[VerDeTerre]

It's funny how the term "Jesus Freak" has changed since its inception. The "Jesus Freaks" of the 60s and 70s, the ones who rocked to "Jesus Christ/SuperStar" and "Godspell", were quite different. For one thing, they were hippies.

Oh, Look at this - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_freak) knows what I'm talking about!

[Pixelhate]

I wonder what would be the reactions in USA if the same guy was Muslim and started to pray on the field each times he scores. Probably very negative.
That being said, a lot of athletes refer to god or alike when they achieve something but this one is too conspicuous to be honest, in my opinion...

[maxon]

I've never heard of him either (being English) but it sounds like ostentation to me. Look-at-me-praying like Look-at-me anything else usually has something else going on in the background.

[Robodl95]

I don't understand what he's done to make himself so hated, personally I think he's sincere (his dad's a pastor, he was born in the Phillipines while his parents worked as missionaries, home schooled most of his life - he obviously grew up in a VERY religious household). He's charitable, respectful, a hard worker and true to himself.

[VerDeTerre]

I think when Maxon expressed that it sounds like ostentation, she hit the nail on the head as to why people react negatively to him. Yes, he has some good qualities, but he's off-putting with the big show. Also he's praying for touchdowns! That's ridiculous! This guy (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plato-pop/201112/tim-tebow-the-problem-evil-and-divinely-bestowed-touchdowns) says it better than I do.

I checked out his website and was shocked at the egomania and book and DVD for sale. (The book is about a message for hope - shouldn't he offer that for free?) Are all athletes like that? That commercial? I wouldn't know.



Maxon, here are a couple of pictures:

http://i.imgur.com/HzFLJ.jpg[/URL][/IMG] http://i.imgur.com/8RFcI.jpg (http://imgur.com/8RFcI)

[fraroc]

I don't understand what he's done to make himself so hated, personally I think he's sincere (his dad's a pastor, he was born in the Phillipines while his parents worked as missionaries, home schooled most of his life - he obviously grew up in a VERY religious household). He's charitable, respectful, a hard worker and true to himself.

Just watch these..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_OnP4JKi08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k

And don't forget this fucking disgusting cunt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Ann_Coulter2.jpg/220px-Ann_Coulter2.jpg

Makes me throw up just seeing her.

[Robodl95]

Just watch these..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_OnP4JKi08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k

And don't forget this fucking disgusting cunt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Ann_Coulter_at_book_signing.jpg
I don't see mention of Tebow anywhere, and seriously Westburo? That's the same as saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I know that his religion is against homosexuals but Tebow has not said or done anything against them personally. He is probably against it but at least he has the decency to keep his opinions to himself.

[VerDeTerre]

That picture keeps coming in large and small...it's weird, can you fix it?

Who is she and why are you bringing her into the discussion?

I have to echo Robod's questions: How does this tie into the topic at hand?


(And, dude...that word...ouch!)

[ElementMK]

Dude, fraroc, give my bandwidth a break. That picture is as huge as the hyperbole you describe it with.

[fraroc]

Iol I fixed it even though I can't stand to see her face.

And to Robodl95, I understand that, but how long until Tebow breaks his silence and says something really hurtful? When (or hopefully if) he ever does, I really hope he thinks it's worth it, because at that nanosecond, Tebowmania would be destroyed.

And sorry for the language, but I just hate Ann Coulter so damn much....

[VerDeTerre]

Ah! That's who that is! Now I can google her ;) Thank you and thanks for fixing the image. That was crazy. :blink:

We can't really fault someone for something he hasn't done yet. It doesn't make sense. I would suggest suspending judgement for now.

[maxon]

Uh-Huh - yeah, VerDeTerre, that's ostentation if you ask me. I wonder what he's trying to suppress.

[SimsLover50]

Do these genuflection's interrupt gameplay or delay the game in some way? I honestly, do not know, since I do not watch, but it seems like it might be time consuming to get down on one knee and the whole bit. Does he do this multiple times or just once per game?

Is he praying to win? Or everyone's safety? World peace? What?

I think- and this is my personal feeling- is the down on the knee thing is a bit much especailly if he does it more than once. I can see taking a quiet moment before the game to pray about the outcome, if he feels strongly moved to do so. But the good thing about prayer is you can do it quietly in your mind you don't need to be demonstrative or genuflect when doing so.

[VerDeTerre]

@SimsLover, I don't have the answer about how much time it takes or all the moments he does it. I've only heard that he will do it before the game or after a touch down. Sometimes he points to heaven after a touch town and says, "Thank you". Many athletes will cheer or throw their arms up when they score, so that doesn't sound like anything that would take away too much time, but I don't really know.

I read somewhere tonight that he is teaching others this act of "Tebowing" -dropping down on one knee to pray or give thanks. I think there's sort of an arm pose that goes with it. It's hit the news and some teens were recently suspended for Tebowing in the hallway of their school.

[KKiryu007Joker]

What made this guy so popular all of the sudden? I swear I started hearing about him only today, but everywhere.

[Yazoo]

Like ALL athletes they pray for:

A good game

Safety of the Players

And win or lose, keep the team as a team. Seriously, alright. Lets go bash other players that pray.

Aaron Rodgers, prays and points to the sky after getting a touchdown

Eli Manning points the sky and thanking god for the touchdown

Shall I continue?

The teams huddle in a group praying BEFORE every freaking game, and ask for a good game and safety of the players. Its not like they are saying:

"Well, I need to pray for everything, and anything. God grant me a gazillion touchdowns"

So, here you go. OH, look they are ALL praying. Hmm, interesting. So to just bash Tebow, then you need to bash all of the NFL players. Because hey, we don't know they may hate homosexuals as well. Come on, seriously! People, just understand, that Tebow NEVER once bashed homosexuals. And if you think that, then you are sorely mistaken.

Praying NFL Players:

Green Bay Packers:

http://i44.tinypic.com/28wdmop.jpg

After a Touchdown (Green Bay Packers):

http://i39.tinypic.com/13ygq47.png


Buffalo Bills Player:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2a0cmu0.jpg


Denver Broncos and Jacksonville Jaguars:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2my9j0n.jpg

Tebow is NOT the only one that gets down on a knee in the endzone, or prayers every time he comes on the field.

[RoseCity]

Well, his praying on the field is over for this year. Maybe in the off-season he can pray for a throwing arm upgrade.

[Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust]

What made this guy so popular all of the sudden? I swear I started hearing about him only today, but everywhere.

well the broncos just got eliminated from the playoffs so that might have something to do with it

[Zennia]

I think it's interesting that some people applaud gays for coming out, which i have no opinion of either way. Yet when someone you disagree with on a matter comes out, in this case a christian openly praying and not hiding his faith in a closet, who happens to be of an opposing opinion to the OP, well thats just wrong? You know, one of the greatest things i've found in the bible is judge not and you won't be judged. For with what measure you judge someone else, you will be judged in the same way. In other words, remember, while your pointing that finger at someone else, there are 3 fingers pointing right back at you.

I personally try not to judge other people because i'm way too busy cleaning out the trash in my own backyard. :)

[Mistermook]

I don't think it's really about being offended by the guy being religious, it's about the guy kind of being a dim-witted douchebag (but apparently a nice one, and those are the worst ones) and people reaching for things to slam him for. If he overtly drank, or played The Sims, or whatever, people would latch onto those traits and slam him for it. There wouldn't be any end to it at all if he were homosexual, by the way. Gays would denounce him for crying on television and ruining their image, the American Christian Right would slam that as an indication of all the bad things being homosexual did to you (right along with turning good Christian politicians gay, obviously. They can't help themselves as long as it's legal,) and everyone else would probably just wait for it come up as an excuse for something ("I'm not winning football games because of all of the hate mail.")

He'd still probably be a nice, fairly talented guy in the same exact way as he is now, if after every touchdown he went over to the sidelines and made out with his boyfriend. And it would probably irritate the shit out of some people even if it were that. It's not about what he's doing, it's the attention he's somehow conscripting for doing it. I don't know if he's demanding it or manufacturing it himself, but he certainly doesn't appear to be trying to keep a low key. And, yes, there's nothing wrong with that either - he's an entertainer and his main job, implicitly, is to do stuff that fills seats in stadiums. He's just figured out a way to do it that doesn't have to do with how well he throws the football, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Jesus either. It's all about Tebow. I think that is what's annoying people. It annoyed people when Dennis Rodman did it by wearing dresses and piercing every inch of his body too, but I could see Dennis Rodman running off about how the Virgin Mary helped him dribble and that would probably be just as annoying too.

[VerDeTerre]

Thank you Nevermore, that was very helpful. I didn't realize that so many athletes prayed that way before and during the game. It makes what Tebow does look a lot more normal.

Now I have a couple of questions and concerns:

* Why does Tebow stand out for something that so many other athletes are doing? Why is the way he prays being copied by so many teens and has been dubbed "Tebowing"?

* When football players go into a huddle, aren't they coming up with a strategy for the next play?

* Praying en mass like that must be comforting to those who share those religious beliefs and practices, but I am wondering if it makes fellow players and fans who do not share those beliefs or practices uncomfortable? Do they feel pressured to put on the same show to fit in? It seems like a group thing in a few of the pictures Nevermore shared and that often ends up with a situation of peer pressure.

And a couple of comments:

* Praying for a good, fair game and for the safety of all players and fans is ok.
Praying for a win is not. In a child, that sort of action and reasoning is understandable, but in an adult, it's just egotistical.

* I've heard and read that Tebow prays for a win and acts as if God is on his side because his team wins. That annoys me and is probably the reason people get irritated with him and make fun of him. Plus, as MisterMook said, he draws a lot of attention to himself. Not exactly humble, is he?

* KJ: I just heard about him before the weekend, probably because the game was this weekend. Check out the link to the Youtube video I gave above: It's Jimmy Fallon doing a spoof of David Bowie and Tim Tebow as one person and it references an upcoming game with New England.

[SimsLover50]

I think it's interesting that some people applaud gays for coming out, which i have no opinion of either way. Yet when someone you disagree with on a matter comes out, in this case a christian openly praying and not hiding his faith in a closet, who happens to be of an opposing opinion to the OP, well thats just wrong? :)

I don't really see being openly Christian and praying in public as the equivalent of coming out. Christianity is widely accepted and admired by many in the US, and protected under his right to freedom of speech.

[RoseCity]

* When football players go into a huddle, aren't they coming up with a strategy for the next play?
The QB has a transmitter in his helmet, so he can get play calls from the sideline. Then he tells the offensive team what play they're running, etc. Some QBs call their own plays, I think, but I'm not sure how many, if any.

* Praying en mass like that must be comforting to those who share those religious beliefs and practices, but I am wondering if it makes fellow players and fans who do not share those beliefs or practices uncomfortable? Do they feel pressured to put on the same show to fit in? It seems like a group thing in a few of the pictures Nevermore shared and that often ends up with a situation of peer pressure.
Maybe they develop some of these quirks like dropping to one knee and praying in response to the stress of playing professional sports. I can't imagine being out there in front of thousands of fans and millions of tv viewers. When you eff up, millions of people see it. Plus letting your teammates down, etc. And it's competition - of course, you want to hand the other guy's ass to him on a platter - you can be sportsmanlike, but you can't be Mr Nice Guy. And if you're praying, of course you're probably praying to win. I don't know - it doesn't really seem unsportsmanlike to me, unlike for example the excessive TD celebrations of yore.

[Yazoo]

I think it's interesting that some people applaud gays for coming out, which i have no opinion of either way. Yet when someone you disagree with on a matter comes out, in this case a christian openly praying and not hiding his faith in a closet, who happens to be of an opposing opinion to the OP, well thats just wrong? You know, one of the greatest things i've found in the bible is judge not and you won't be judged. For with what measure you judge someone else, you will be judged in the same way. In other words, remember, while your pointing that finger at someone else, there are 3 fingers pointing right back at you.

I personally try not to judge other people because i'm way too busy cleaning out the trash in my own backyard. :)

I would like to add to that quote. God even said:

"Thee who judges, shall be judged according to how they judged."

So, lets say you judged a homosexual for him or her being gay. And you say the word hate. Guess what my friend, you will be judged for that hate.

For he did say:

"Love thy neighbor."

So, if a religious person hates homosexuals. Is it right for the homosexual to be offended or should they just turn the other cheek, and say: "That's fine. I may be a homosexual, but I'm happy with who I am. And what I am."

You can NOT judge someone for who they are or for what they do. Because honey, that is not your call. You do not judge them. You just can't. Because if you do, then be prepared to be judged according to how you judged someone. For me, I do not judged. Even if they are my enemy. Because, will it make me feel good? No. It will make me feel like I am just another judgmental bastard.

Thank you, Zennia, for putting that quote up there.


Thank you Nevermore, that was very helpful. I didn't realize that so many athletes prayed that way before and during the game. It makes what Tebow does look a lot more normal.

Now I have a couple of questions and concerns:

* Why does Tebow stand out for something that so many other athletes are doing? Why is the way he prays being copied by so many teens and has been dubbed "Tebowing"?

* When football players go into a huddle, aren't they coming up with a strategy for the next play?

* Praying en mass like that must be comforting to those who share those religious beliefs and practices, but I am wondering if it makes fellow players and fans who do not share those beliefs or practices uncomfortable? Do they feel pressured to put on the same show to fit in? It seems like a group thing in a few of the pictures Nevermore shared and that often ends up with a situation of peer pressure.

And a couple of comments:

* Praying for a good, fair game and for the safety of all players and fans is ok.
Praying for a win is not. In a child, that sort of action and reasoning is understandable, but in an adult, it's just egotistical.

* I've heard and read that Tebow prays for a win and acts as if God is on his side because his team wins. That annoys me and is probably the reason people get irritated with him and make fun of him. Plus, as MisterMook said, he draws a lot of attention to himself. Not exactly humble, is he?

* KJ: I just heard about him before the weekend, probably because the game was this weekend. Check out the link to the Youtube video I gave above: It's Jimmy Fallon doing a spoof of David Bowie and Tim Tebow as one person and it references an upcoming game with New England.

Okay, during the beginning of the game, the team will huddle with their coaches, and pray. They will pray for a good game, a good crowd to cheer them on, and for safety for both teams. But on the field when they huddle, they are telling the players the play for that scrimmage.

I got this article. To show how effed up people are, on people who are religious. It goes both way. If Religious people hate gays. Well, then people hate religious people. It seriously goes BOTH ways. Here is the article. Read it. And see the side of someone else.

Football Player Flagged For Praying (http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-no-praying-in-the-end-zone-112910,0,4538168.story)

And this:

Lions Player Mocks Tim Tebow during a game (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/lions-players-celebrate-by-mocking-broncos-qb-tim-tebows-praying/)

My final question, was it right for that Lion Player to mock him?

[SimsLover50]

For me- there is a difference in the certain fundamentalist religious groups using his doctrine to hate on gays, and the gay hating the religious person who does this. The difference to me, is that gays aren't instigating the issue, and certain religious sects/organizations are using their religious doctrine to descriminate or marginalize a minority group or deny them rights. Ignoring the rights of another, and denying them freedom, is very hurtful and harmful, and worse, when the sole justiifcation is a religious belief that not everyone believes.

[Mistermook]

Again though, there's a difference between people and organizations too. Just because you're a member of a club doesn't mean you're bound by contract to act within the pronouncements of that club, unless there is an actual contract - like the one he has with his team owners, agent, and the NFL. I don't know if I've ever heard of lay members of any religion having the same sorts of contracts, so whatever his religious affiliation might be I don't think you can make assumptions on what he's personally doing. And what he's personally doing is bound by his professional contracts, and once they get tired of... anything really, they'll find a way to put a stop to it. Until they've got a financial reason to do so, I don't see it happening.

I'd bet money that he's been approached privately with a list of things they will and will not tolerate, and I'd also bet there's a group of folks at the head office trying to figure out numbers and whether he's a good thing or a bad thing, whether anyone else thinks differently or not. It's not a game, it's a business. Right now they put up with Tebow like the NHL doesn't do anything about fighting in hockey, or how Tyson was allowed to fight right up until the point they decided he was more of a liability than a ticket seller. And none of that's anything to do with talent or how well anyone does as an athlete - essentially if we're supposed to condemn Tebow for his associations with his church we should condemn the NFL for its associations with Tebow... but that seems a bit hypocritical because there are ex-cons, accused rapists, and just normal assholes playing in plain view for decades before Tebow ever showed up. He's a walking ego, but the business thrives on ego. The line between professional wrestling and any other professional sport is a thin one. I'm still wondering how NASCAR pulls these universally wholesome looking white kids into the fold and shuts out the car-bubbas with more skill but less teeth.

[Tigga07]

The idea that that all people are sinners describes certain Christian groups and believers, not all. I, for one, would be impressed with someone who lived their faith through service to others and who strove to be loving as Jesus taught in the New Testament. Someone like that would make an excellent role model.

Last I checked in EVERY Christian bible there is "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23.
So even if you say that all people being sinners is only for certain groups and believers of Christianity, you admit that Christianity is a religion that one can pick and choose what they want to believe. Even if the book of their faith, the Bible, says the can't. So then you get people who are Christian but feel bad about gay bashing and prejudice against other's who are ethnic, non christian, women, poor, and non republican. However, some adopt a new brand of their faith rather than question the over all legitimacy of their faith. It's like trying to figure out if a Big Mac from McDonalds is still a big mac if you take away the second burger, tomatoes, bun, and lettuce.

And also, according to Christians, the last time the world was given a great role model like Jesus, they stood by while he was killed. Oh . . .wait a minute, that was Jesus.

[Tigga07]

Again though, there's a difference between people and organizations too. Just because you're a member of a club doesn't mean you're bound by contract to act within the pronouncements of that club . . .

I'm still wondering how NASCAR pulls these universally wholesome looking white kids into the fold and shuts out the car-bubbas with more skill but less teeth.

I think people should be aware of all the in and outs that come along with the organizations one chooses to be associated with. That's like me joining the Klan and then saying "But wait, I only joined for their premier linen laundry service. They sure do keep their sheets white." And then be upset because as a member I'm associated with prejudice, violence and intolerance. Guilty be association. Also, if you can't or won't act within the pronouncements of a club, why in heck are you a part of it!
Also Nascar gets the wholesome guys because good teeth sell. See: Slavery, holocaust, Real Housewifes of whatever etc etc :p

[Mistermook]

So now his religion is the KKK?

[Tempscire]

Yet when someone you disagree with on a matter comes out, in this case a christian openly praying and not hiding his faith in a closet, who happens to be of an opposing opinion to the OP, well thats just wrong?
Well, last time I checked, there's a line in the Bible that's pretty explicitly in favor of not openly praying (http://bible.cc/matthew/6-6.htm). Some translations even actually say you should literally go into a closet to do so. Just saying. :)

[Tigga07]

So now his religion is the KKK?
LOL, No. But the whole idea of my post was be aware of the reputation or regard a group or club you affiliated with has. I bet all you saw was the word Klan. No I'm relating Tebow to the Klan. :Pint:

[Mistermook]

You bet? How much? I need a dollar as much as the rest of us.

Dismissing your allegations of reading comprehension, what I'm trying to say is that you were bringing a very volatile example to the mix. It's possibly not as bad as going "Well, if he were a Nazi he had to have known their reputation" or something like that, but I think it's fairly clear that that's the sort of implication you were aiming for.

A religious affiliation is a lot looser and more complicated than a lot of other associations. Recently people have been making this false assertion that implies you can, for instance, tell everything you need to know about Catholics by their association with Catholicism, or even more problematically that you could, in another instance, determine what every Christian or Muslim by their association with that. But it's simply not true. I'm an outspoken, committed atheist. I associate with various religious folks though. Nominally I'm probably still "on the books" as a member of various churches that I've attended in my life that insisted that I sign things to gain entry. But obviously I'm not a member of any religion, nor is my association with atheism a good indicator that I'm plotting with other atheists.

Tebow works on Sundays. How much is he really able to attend any church? He's a professional football player, so at least one of his teammates is likely a felon. Insisting that his associations define him is tantamount to making him an ex-con.

Again, he's an annoying guy. I don't like him. But there's plenty there to be annoyed with based on what he himself explicitly does without making screwed up logical pronouncements. I'm American. There's sorts of vague associations and pronouncements one might make about Americans, and very much of those would not be true.

[Zennia]

Well, last time I checked, there's a line in the Bible that's pretty explicitly in favor of not openly praying (http://bible.cc/matthew/6-6.htm). Some translations even actually say you should literally go into a closet to do so. Just saying. :)

I agree with you but there is such as fine line in that. You can't hold every situation to the same black and white standard. If your always praying and giving thanks for every meal and then go to a restaurant, do you not pray because it would be open before all? It's what is in a persons heart and God judges the heart. He knows the motivation of a persons heart whether it is pure or evil. That's one reason i think the bible says not to judge another because how can you know the motivations of a persons heart? Most times we are blind to our own motivations, let alone someone else. The secrets of the heart, God knows.

Personally speaking, i am a christian and also straight. But, i think there is a tragedy in the church today to judge the lifestyles of others, like homosexuality for instance. While the church has been busy condemning homosexuality, adultery and fornication has been ripping it apart, leaving no stone unturned. We need to take a good long look in the mirror and examine our own hearts.

But that doesn't mean it's not interesting that non christians hold christians to such a high standard. Much more than they hold themselves to. I wonder why, if non christians know so much about how a christian is supposed to act, whats their excuse for not being one? What will God say to the unsaved on judgement day that have held his people to such high standards while they did whatever they wanted?

On the other hand the bible says all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. So, maybe that's why the whole world bears down harder on christians than any other. Something more is expected of us and i think that is to let Jesus shine through us and we all know Jesus is the most amazing being that ever lived. I heard a preacher say he was glad that he was a sinner because its the only way he could know Jesus. And knowing Christ is everything.

[SimsLover50]

I wonder why, if non christians know so much about how a christian is supposed to act, whats their excuse for not being one?

There was actually an interesting article in last month's natitional geographic that talks about Religiousity, and that strong religious inclinations may be hereditary, as were other personality traits previously believed to be learned behavior. This is interesting to me, because if this is true, it may indicate that some people are simply inclined more to be more religious than others. If that is true, your answer may be that some are 'born that way.'

That said, many people are former christians, have loved ones who are, or read the bible.

What will God say to the unsaved on judgement day that have held his people to such high standards while they did whatever they wanted?

"Doing whatever we wanted" is freedom, and personally, I don't believe that a good god would put people on this earth, give us free will, and expect us to be obedient, worship one particular way and then get mad when we don't. I don't feel god is out there to Zoink people. The Christian view of god as this divine punisher whose obsessed with sin, and fretting about people misbehaving and who they sleep with seems a bit un-loving. Especially when God is perfect, knows all, sees all and hears all...

Part of Christian doctrine that I don't like is the 'fear' element. Misbehave and God will get you, or you will go to hell, be judged, or Satan will have you. Why would people be interested in a god who spends his time punishing and hurting people who don't believe one particular flavor of abrahamic creed? These don't seem the actions of a good and caring god.

[Zennia]

"Doing whatever we wanted" is freedom, and personally, I don't believe that a good god would put people on this earth, give us free will, and expect us to be obedient, worship one particular way and then get mad when we don't. I don't feel god is out there to Zoink people. The Christian view of god as this divine punisher whose obsessed with sin, and fretting about people misbehaving and who they sleep with seems a bit un-loving. Especially when God is perfect, knows all, sees all and hears all

I couldn't have said it better. God isn't a fear-mongerer. Free will after all is a gift from God to us. I've learned that God never superimposes his will on us. He's too much of a gentleman for that. He gives us all things to enjoy. :) He won't force us into something we don't want. He let's us have our way. And some people want to live for God and do his will. To choose what he wants instead of our own will. I believe they are the most happiest people on earth. Choosing God's will always brings a greater joy and blessing than having our own way.

God loves us no matter what we choose, but his choice is the better way.

[SimsLover50]

Who decides what is God's choice? Who decides what is God's will? And better than what? People for centuries have used "God's will" and the bible to justify whatever they want. The bible is a broad document and can't really be proven either way to be the word of God.

Not everyone is happier being a believer either. It may personally be true for you, but for some this might not be the case. Some people suffer under the yoke of religion or religious tyranny and rules, whether it is Chrsitianity or any other religion.

If what current research suggests is true as well, some people may be biologically inclined to religious viewpoints (the religion doesn't matter, just the religiousity). If this is so, then what is 'natural' or makes a religiously inclined person 'happy might not make someone without this inclination happy. Also, it might make a case, that if hereditary inclination towards strong religious viewpoints are so, then how much really is free will and choosing to obey god, and how much is just a genetic inclination towards religious belief.

I think we're digressing though, from the original topic at hand. Which is Mr. Tebow. And whether he is a good role model or not. To this regard, I do not know enough about him to decide that personally. Overt religiousity, isn't enough to decide that. It really is a question of how Mr. Tebow behaves, and what he does that matters.

[Tempscire]

I agree with you but there is such as fine line in that. You can't hold every situation to the same black and white standard. If your always praying and giving thanks for every meal and then go to a restaurant, do you not pray because it would be open before all?
I was teasing by mentioning the closet translation, but I'd interpret that passage not to necessarily literally or always go pray in private (the link in my previous post also gives some historic and cultural context), but more loosely not to make a spectacle of your prayer, which would detract from what prayer is supposed to accomplish. LOOK AT WHAT A GOOD [religion] I AM! SO MUCH MORE HOLY THAN THOU!

I wonder why, if non christians know so much about how a christian is supposed to act, whats their excuse for not being one?
I used to be a Christian, once upon a time. Plus there's lot's of Biblical references soaked into Western in culture in general (literature and idioms and so forth), and of course, lots of other Christians walking around who wear tshirts with Bible quotes and stuff. It's not that hard to know about Christianity or any other of the major religions without making extra special effort for scrutiny. Not that not being a Christian needs any excuse.

And to try to bring this back around to topic (and where I drift into a more general assertion than direct reply to you, just fyi, Zennia :) )...
What will God say to the unsaved on judgement day that have held his people to such high standards while they did whatever they wanted?
I don't hold Christians to higher standards than myself. I hold them to their own standards. Christians dominate American society. There are a number of laws on our books directly influenced by Christian moralizing rather than secular logic. Gays can't marry but women wear pants and men shave? Jesus preached giving to the poor 'til it hurts, but megachurches are a thing now and the noticeably religious conservative right are the traditional force against social welfare programs?

People who moralize on a public stage deserve to be scrutinized closely. Why do I make fun of Republican politicians caught with male hookers (or the ones with multiple marriages and divorces), more so than Democratic ones? They stake their careers on Family Values and Good Christian Morals in the first place, values they'd love to force on everyone. There's being human and thus unable to live up to an ideal, and then there's...that.

Has Tebow done anything like that? Not that I know of. He even has a charity foundation (whose website drips with God talk, but that's just an issue of my own personal preference). For some reason he's gotten attention for his prayer on the field, even though (as shown upthread) he's hardly the first or only. Does he "moralize" on the public stage? Not in the way a politician would, so far as I can tell, but he does have influence and does proselytize. To someone Christian, I can see how he might be considered a good role model: good ol' American boy, plays football, god-fearing, spreads the good word...

To someone like me, I can't help but roll my eyes because, oh, he's only the 20 billionth person to be 'openly' Christian in this country (i.e. there really needs to be another role model for Christianity?) and the best thing he can pray for is football? I don't care if he's asking for a safe game rather than scores, it's still a trite waste of basic decency. Dear God, I know there are people suffering in the world, but we're all about to voluntarily risk our healths to play this billion dollar game, so could you cast some of your care this way for now? Would Jesus approve of the spectacle and expense of football when there are starving people out there? I suspect not.

As someone fairly liberal who supports gay rights, I'd be willing to say he makes a bad role model from that point of view. He chose to be in a Focus on the Family commercial (an organization I consider deplorable and actively harmful); he refuses to be in a "It Gets Better" video. He's just another superficial Bible-beater who doesn't truly consider what Jesus preached when he could follow the bigotry of Paul and the egoism of American evangelism, and we already have enough of those as public figures. That's not to say he's a bad guy or does no good for society. I consider more of a null than good or bad.

[KKiryu007Joker]

Damn I hear about him everywhere.