Showtime: retextures of previous clothing

[Lady D]

It doesn't seem like there is a category for Showtime yet, so I hope it's okay if I post this here. I also hope this hasn't already been posted as I didn't see anything similar.

I had just finished installing Showtime and making sure awesomemod and my various bits of CC were working properly when I started creating a new sim. As I was browsing the new clothing available I noticed something fishy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/LadyDea/TS3W2012-03-1116-47-42-76.jpg

Do these look familiar? Well, they should. We already have these. I think the tshirt is from basegame:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/LadyDea/TS3W2012-03-1116-48-09-54.jpg

The tank from Late Night:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/LadyDea/TS3W2012-03-1116-47-52-36.jpg

And the hideously retextured jacket from a downloadable pack from the store (not positive, though).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/LadyDea/TS3W2012-03-1116-48-53-35.jpg

Actually, I think all of the new textures are ugly. I'm just right pissed off that they were included in this expansion pack and instead of new content we get stuff we already have that had some hideous decal slapped on.

[socherish]

I noticed that too, but it doesn't bother me. SHT came with enough nice unique clothes for me to not really care about the recycled stuff. Then again I'm never cared too much about clothes in the sims, they were nice to have but if an EP came with like no clothes I wouldn't care as long as it had a bunch of jobs/interactions/activities/objects, so I guess that could be why.

[Lady D]

There are some nice outfits that I do like, and I admit there seems to be more clothing/shoes/accessories in SHT than there have been in a single EP so far. I just look at those three tops above and wonder why they even bothered. It's just going to be clutter.

[AdamantEve]

I am not sure how a new clothing decal is not "new content". Yes, it's an existing mesh, but do you complain when you see stores selling a new t-shirt because it's...a t-shirt? I mean, you already have a t-shirt, right?

[Lady D]

My point is that it's the exact same piece of clothing that we already have, there's just a little picture or stripe on it now. So, it's not really "new" it's just recycled. If they somehow just merged the "new" tshirt in with the choices of what we already have, then fine. I just don't think that EA should include things like that with something we pay for when we already have the same thing. If it was in the store, free or not, then you'd at least have the choice to download it.

[aGOLDENbox]

I am not sure how a new clothing decal is not "new content". Yes, it's an existing mesh, but do you complain when you see stores selling a new t-shirt because it's...a t-shirt? I mean, you already have a t-shirt, right?

Yeah, I agree if you walk into a store and see a similar shirt that you've already purchased, but with a new design there's no real reason to complain, but this user bought an expansion pack and the base game and paid for "new content" that included a new stencil of a shirt already available to her. Not a new mesh, not a new pattern, but a recolor/new stencil that they won't be able to put on anything else. I think that's a partial waste of money and TS3 being a little too lazy.

[AdamantEve]

My point is that it's the exact same piece of clothing that we already have, there's just a little picture or stripe on it now. So, it's not really "new" it's just recycled.

Again, do you also have this issue with REAL CLOTHING?

If they somehow just merged the "new" tshirt in with the choices of what we already have, then fine.

So the problem isn't that it's modified...it's that it's not hidden in the little slide bar for the existing meshes, where you'd never realize it even existed...? ;)

I really don't get the problem here. There are only so many ways you can make a t-shirt. They did not need a new mesh, so they didn't make a new mesh...not a big deal. :bunny:

[matrix54]

Now, compare those arbitrary things to the rest of clothing in the game. To the amount of clothing in any other game.

They're just stencils on 3 tops. Nothing to complain about.

[EmotedLlama]

I like the look of those shirts. I also like the look of those stencils. Thus, I like the shirt--would you rather they arbitrarily made a new mesh that would either look to out-there to be a base shirt with a stencil, or turn out so similar it really wouldn't make a difference anyway?

[GnatGoSplat]

Yeah, I noticed the retextures of previous clothing as well. My first impression was that it seemed rather lazy. Most other EPs/SPs had new meshes. Ripped denim shorts looked like just a texture on the legs and one of the new outfits is a retexture of the racing suit from Fast Lane Stuff. Maybe I'm a closet fashionista because I always look forward to new and unique clothing for my female sims.

Perhaps they're paying their meshers by the vertex and decided to keep costs down.

[Miss Puff]

Again, do you also have this issue with REAL CLOTHING?

It's not really helpful to compare sims clothes to real clothes. Real clothes wear out and you have to replace them, so of course you want the stores to carry similar shirts that you already have. You also wear a lot more clothes in real life than sims do. A sim can go their entire adult and young adult life wearing the same T-shirt, so it's important for their clothes to be representative of that individual sim. In real life, most people will change into clean clothes every day, so if you really like a particular style it would be nice to have similar items.

If it were only one item no one probably would've noticed, by since it's three it starts to stand out a little. Personally, I don't mind the drama one, and I think they were actually pretty creative with the recolors for the leather jacket, but the stencils on the tank top look tacky and stuck on. I suppose that last one is nice for people who don't have LN, but still, when I get new EPs I want them to have stuff that is more difficult to make because they're the ones doing this as their job. Throwing stencils on an already existing mesh is something that the community could have (and has) done easily for free. I'd rather have one new mesh than 3 old meshes with new stencils, as there are fewer people who know how to mesh well.

Imagine if they did the same thing with furniture, and said "Here are three new objects!" but they were just base game objects with new stencils on them? Maybe Mission counters with matching rainbows and unicorns. :rofl:

[~MadameButterfly~]

Weren't they claiming that this EP would have the most items ever? I guess they had to pad their numbers somehow, and here I thought it would all come from non-interactive decor stuff...

[Zokugai]

That's the biggest issue with it, I think. They were advertising this pack based SPECIFICALLY on how many new items and clothing it had. They were using that as a selling point, and there are people who bought it because of that. Except then EA went "oh sorry by new item we mean the same item you already have, just with a blurry stencil slapped on it."

[AdamantEve]

If they got rid of these shirts that use existing meshes, it still has the most items of any expansion pack ever :!: Even if they got rid of ALL the clothing in the expansion, it still has more!

[Miss Puff]

If they got rid of these shirts that use existing meshes, it still has the most items of any expansion pack ever :!: Even if they got rid of ALL the clothing in the expansion, it still has more!
You keep trying to defend each of the issues people bring up as if they exist in a vacuum. It's not just that they included recolors of old meshes, or just that they were wrong about simport not importing CC, or just that they released the wrong patch with a bunch of extra stuff that's still in testing. It's the fact that they did ALL of these things while at the same time spending their time coding social features that don't add anything to the actual game and that a very large portion of their customers don't even want while there are STILL bugs from previous expansions that they have not fixed. People will always be upset about mistakes or not getting exactly what they want, but the reason it's getting so bad with Showtime is because we keep seeing these things happen over and over and feel that we're being taken advantage of because EA knows they don't have any real competition. So, no, it's not a huge deal that these are in the game, but if we didn't get so many indications that the company was getting lazy or unorganized or whatever it is that's making them go downhill, then maybe we would just see them as a few extra things someone threw in on the side instead of wondering why someone was wasting their time with this instead of working on some of the real issues with the game or at least giving us something nice to make up for it.

[AdamantEve]

Either this was a waste of time, significant enough to impact the game's development, or it was a quick addition that is without value.

The argument here seems to be that it's somehow both- these are so simple and quick to make, that we should be angry that EA dared count them as new. But they're also such a time sink that their creation must have impacted the game as a whole. How is that even possible? (It also ignores that the people making the clothes are not the same people doing everything else in the game, meaning the clothes could not possibly have impacted hte rest of the game, but as I learned from an earlier thread, the people on MTS refuse to understand that game development isn't 6 people taking turns at various jobs even when they're being told so by someone *in the industry!!!*, so we'll ignore that. :|)

It is just a silly thing to get so angry about. What happened to enjoying the game? I miss the Sims BBS. :(

[Zokugai]

Hey, AdamandEve. If you disagree with this thread so strongly, you're welcome to not read it. Just saying.

[AdamantEve]

If you disagree with my disagreements, you're welcome not to read them. :luff:

[Robodl95]

You keep trying to defend each of the issues people bring up as if they exist in a vacuum. It's not just that they included recolors of old meshes, or just that they were wrong about simport not importing CC, or just that they released the wrong patch with a bunch of extra stuff that's still in testing. It's the fact that they did ALL of these things while at the same time spending their time coding social features that don't add anything to the actual game and that a very large portion of their customers don't even want while there are STILL bugs from previous expansions that they have not fixed. People will always be upset about mistakes or not getting exactly what they want, but the reason it's getting so bad with Showtime is because we keep seeing these things happen over and over and feel that we're being taken advantage of because EA knows they don't have any real competition. So, no, it's not a huge deal that these are in the game, but if we didn't get so many indications that the company was getting lazy or unorganized or whatever it is that's making them go downhill, then maybe we would just see them as a few extra things someone threw in on the side instead of wondering why someone was wasting their time with this instead of working on some of the real issues with the game or at least giving us something nice to make up for it.
The clothing designers aren't the same people who code... really, this thread is about shirts. Not everything that's wrong with the game.

And for the record, I think the achievements they added are great, lots of people love challenges and I think they're a great way to try something new.

[Miuki]

I think it is a lazy way out EA took this time. I always thought that the purpose of clothes in new EPs was to add new meshes, so players could use CAS to adapt them to their taste and style, also I don't like how it clutters in the list of items in CAS.
AdamantEve but as I learned from an earlier thread, the people on MTS refuse to understand that game development isn't 6 people taking turns at various jobs even when they're being told so by someone *in the industry!!!*, so we'll ignore that. )
It is just a silly thing to get so angry about. What happened to enjoying the game? I miss the Sims BBS.
Yes..this site is just a bunch of stupid and angry people. What are you doing here with all your superior intelligence and knowledge then?

[AdamantEve]

I never said everyone is stupid and angry! Putting insults in peoples mouths is never a good idea.

I said they don't listen when you tell them things that are facts. Look at my post up there where I said the expansion still has more content than any other even if you removed all the clothes. That's a fact but people still disagreed! :lol: Emotions come before facts here, I guess, which is pretty unfortunate. But I never said anyone was stupid or that everyone is angry. :)

[Pyba]

I never said everyone is stupid and angry! Putting insults in peoples mouths is never a good idea.

I said they don't listen when you tell them things that are facts. Look at my post up there where I said the expansion still has more content than any other even if you removed all the clothes. That's a fact but people still disagreed! :lol: Emotions come before facts here, I guess, which is pretty unfortunate. But I never said anyone was stupid or that everyone is angry. :)

I think Nightlife has more content, but whatever. :)

[Miuki]

AdamantEve Yes, thank you, I have read the whole thread before posting. That's what Lady D is concerned about -
I'm just right pissed off that they were included in this expansion pack and instead of new content we get stuff we already have that had some hideous decal slapped on. (Basically the theme of the thread)
And you started a lengthy discussion about real clothes, SHT defence, etc. What for?
Back on topic - Either this was a waste of time, significant enough to impact the game's development, or it was a quick addition that is without value.
It is a quick addition that costs players money to buy, not just some extra we are given as a favour, there should have been new meshes instead. But the practice isn't new, they also count every single hairstyle with ugly hats as separate - three cowboy hat recolours, three new hairstyles for you players! The same is about walls.

[AdamantEve]

It is a quick addition that costs players money to buy, not just some extra we are given as a favour, there should have been new meshes instead. But the practice isn't new, they also count every single hairstyle with ugly hats as separate

Point 1. The game has more content than any other expansion pack, yet costs the same. Therefore, these extra shirts did not cost you any more money. Their existence does not cost you any more money. You paid the same amount of money for DOUBLE the amount of objects and clothing and hair of even the biggest previous pack. It's just not logical to say that these extra things you don't like cost you. In another thread I mentioned cake with brocolli and how it's unreasonable to say the cake is worse off because there's a side of broccolli, just because you don't like broccolli. The same applies here. If you pay a dollar for a piece of cake for 10 years, and then one day it starts coming with broccolli at no extra charge, are you really going to go around complaining to all your friends about how the restaurant is such a ripoff?

Point 2. You claim new retextures shouldn't count as new, but also that different hairstyles should not count as new. Long hair with hat, Short hair with hat, Medium hair with hat...you consider those one item? But they are three meshes. Does not a new mesh make a new item? :) Isn't that the problem with the shirts? That they aren't new meshes, and therefore not "new"? Those hairs you claim shouldn't count as separate items are all separate meshes! This is another issue of trying to have it both ways- "These new clothes don't count as new because they aren't separate meshes. And those hairs, which ARE separate meshes, are also not individually new." What counts as "new"? First you say it's a new mesh. Then you say new meshes, even, do not make an item count as something separate. You're not being logical. Tell me: What counts as a "new object"? It can't be a new texture. It can't be a new mesh. You consider neither of those to count. So what is it?


I think Nightlife has more content, but whatever.

This is the kind of thing I'm not getting. Nightlife has 129 new objects in buy mode- and that is including potions, date rewards, and aspiration rewards.

I am sorry, but 129 is less than 165 (198 if you include Buy Debug). And that's just...that's a fact. You cannot say "Oh well, it is my opinion that a fact is wrong.". You just can't! Denying facts is just...it's awful.

This is unbearable! I can't believe nobody even agrees with me on this. I am going to go away until I forget this thread exists. :rolleyes:

[Pyba]

Who cares about the freaking object mode? Nightlife has more content, more social interactions, more dances, etc.


:)

[simsample]

AND... they give us a new world with Showtime. Which we didn't get with Generations! So personally I can live with them re-using a T-Shirt mesh.

[applefeather2]

Welp... definitely time to make supper.

[AdamantEve]

Who cares about the freaking object mode? Nightlife has more content, more social interactions, more dances, etc.


:)

But we're talking about raw, physical content. "Gameplay" is really difficult to define and completely up to personal interpretation.

The fact that Showtime has more content than any expansion ever, even if you removed every piece of clothing, is not. :p

[Miss Puff]

The clothing designers aren't the same people who code...
That's true, but there are CAS issues that could be fixed, as well. I myself have made a fix for a top that came with Generations whose texture overlaps with bottom meshes. There are also a lot of outfits that are incorrectly categorized that people have spent time fixing, those gloves with ribbons that don't let you recolor the ribbon separately from the gloves that someone else fixed, maternity pants that don't have a maternity mesh, clothes WITH maternity meshes that aren't flagged as maternity wear, there's one top from the store whose texture shows up on shoes of all places, and probably more stuff. And I did add "or at least giving us something nice to make up for it" because I thought someone might make this point. ;)

really, this thread is about shirts. Not everything that's wrong with the game.
I responded to AdamantEve about these other things because I've seen him in multiple threads defending multiple issues like they're not that big a deal. And on their own, some of them aren't big deals, but taken all together and seen as part of the longer history of issues that we have been dealing with in these game for awhile, it shows a worrying trend. Personally, I don't think it's fair to say that we should just look at each issue individually and think of excuses for why this one thing is something we should overlook. Eventually you have to ask how much sloppy work do we want to keep paying for, not to mention fix ourselves.

And for the record, I think the achievements they added are great, lots of people love challenges and I think they're a great way to try something new.
Fair enough, and honestly I don't really have a huge issue with the achievements. I'd still argue that they don't really add any new gameplay, only give you suggestions for how to use content that's already there, and that some of what they accomplish has already existed and been created by the community in places like the Sims 3 Challenges forum here at MTS. And I could be wrong, but I'd guess that they weren't one of the features that you've been just waiting for them to add through all these expansions, or that there aren't other actual gameplay features that you might have chosen over them given the chance, or bugs that you are glad they passed over fixing in order to implement them.

And see, that's why the whole picture is so important to mention. Sure, achievements and recolored shirts are both nifty little things that could add something to the game, IF we already had most of the gameplay elements we wanted, and if the game had few glitches which were fixed in a timely manner when they did come up, and if we weren't terrified of installing new expansions because they might make us lose the families and neighborhoods we've put so much time and effort into. Context is important.

Honestly, I'm not really as bothered by these things as I'm probably coming off as with all the paragraphs and what-not, but I think that people are frustrated and want to vent and have a right to voice their opinions about low quality work being included in the game. If people disagree with the assessment of quality, that's fine, but don't get upset if you can't make everyone change their minds (not you, necessarily, but in general).

[Zokugai]

But we're talking about raw, physical content.

No, AdamantEve, we are talking about retextured SHT clothing. That is all we're talking about.

The only person who keeps trying to turn this into a discussion of SHT's merits as a whole is you. Please stop derailing the thread.

[AdamantEve]

No, AdamantEve, we are talking about retextured SHT clothing. That is all we're talking about.

The only person who keeps trying to turn this into a discussion of SHT's merits as a whole is you. Please stop derailing the thread.

Please go back and follow the discussion. It goes from "This is dumb because they said there'd be tons of content, I don't consider this extra content" to "Even without this stuff there's still more object/hair/clothes content than any other EP" to "I think Nightlife had more objects" to "No, Showtime did" to that person saying they think Nightlife had more "gameplay", to me telling them the current discussion is the actual objects/physical things. It is a natural progression. The current discussion at hand was the physical stuff in the game.

[CeJaye]

I noticed the re-textured tank top too, but it was the hairs that really got me. There was quite a few "new" hairs that were just base game hairs with a stupid hat on them.

We're never going to get hats as accessories because then EA won't be able to slap a hat on a base game hair and call it a new hair.

[Bij0ux]

Please go back and follow the discussion. It goes from "This is dumb because they said there'd be tons of content, I don't consider this extra content" to "Even without this stuff there's still more object/hair/clothes content than any other EP" to "I think Nightlife had more objects" to "No, Showtime did" to that person saying they think Nightlife had more "gameplay", to me telling them the current discussion is the actual objects/physical things. It is a natural progression. The current discussion at hand was the physical stuff in the game.

What about Pets?! Also if you are so anal about facts, I'll have you know that there are no Nightlife in TS3.. it is named Late Night, this is a fact.
Why are you arguing with people's disappointment of false advertisement? Because yes, saying something is new when it's recycled is false advertisement. There are new items, NOBODY is disagreeing with this -_- Aren't they allowed to be disappointed as a customer?

[Miuki]

AdamantEve The game has more content than any other expansion pack, yet costs the same. Therefore, these extra shirts did not cost you any more money. Their existence does not cost you any more money.
What does these points have to do with my reply to you? I don't own SHT yet and frankly I don't care if it has more objects then any of the previous packs, this is not the point of the discussion, I don't understand why you bring it up again and again. By the way, is there a chart or set of rules which states exactly how much content and what content should an EP have? If no, then why do you consider reused clothes extras? I won't even comment on your broccoli analogy, it's completely illogical and unrelated.
You claim new retextures shouldn't count as new, but also that different hairstyles should not count as new. Long hair with hat, Short hair with hat, Medium hair with hat... Wow, I demand a direct quote on that. If not, please stop making assumptions about my "claims"

No, AdamantEve, we are talking about retextured SHT clothing. That is all we're talking about.

The only person who keeps trying to turn this into a discussion of SHT's merits as a whole is you. Please stop derailing the thread.
Thank you very much for pointing that again, but I doubt you'll be heard. ;)

[Zokugai]

Why are you even in this thread, Adamant? You clearly don't agree with it at all. Are you expecting to convince people that the shirts are totally awesome or something? I don't even understand why you're posting here.

I noticed the re-textured tank top too, but it was the hairs that really got me. There was quite a few "new" hairs that were just base game hairs with a stupid hat on them.

We're never going to get hats as accessories because then EA won't be able to slap a hat on a base game hair and call it a new hair.

Did you notice how freaking MANY of them there were? Those stupid little Singagram hats are like half the hat-hair section now. There's nine of them and twelve of the mini tophats, because of course EA has to list every single recolor separately.

[Miuki]

Zokugai You don't get it, they are all new and you should be grateful you have them! (irony)

[crocobaura]

[I]In another thread I mentioned cake with brocolli and how it's unreasonable to say the cake is worse off because there's a side of broccolli, just because you don't like broccolli. The same applies here. If you pay a dollar for a piece of cake for 10 years, and then one day it starts coming with broccolli at no extra charge, are you really going to go around complaining to all your friends about how the restaurant is such a ripoff?


Dude, you ruined the receipe for the cake. They don't care that you add broccolli or an extra amount of sugar for the same price, but you ruined the taste of the cake.

[Zokugai]

Zokugai You don't get it, they are all new and you should be grateful you have them! (irony)

You're right, of course. What kind of idiot am I to think that just because I paid good money for an item I have a right to expect quality?

[AdamantEve]

You don't even try to talk to people, all you do is whine and yell at them when they try to have reasonable discussion! Then a bunch of you act like the discussion didn't naturally flow to a separate topic and yell at me for it. It's like you all take deep personal offense if someone tries to counter your opinion, even if it's with factual information! You can dislike Showtime all you want, you can THINK Nightlife had more OBJECTS all you want, but taht does not make it an opinion! It is *wrong!* it is possible to be wrong! It is okay to be wrong! It is reasonable to be wrong! It is NOT unreasonable to say that it's your "opinion" that a smaller number is bigger than a larger number! God! This place was nice the first day but all that keeps happening is people disagreeing with me and yelling at me when I post FACTS!!!!!!!

No wonder I avoided making an account all these years! God!

And to the person saying there's not nightlife for sims 3- NO CRAP! I WAS TALKING ABOUT NIGHTLIFE FOR SIMS FREAKING 2! Like the person who BROUGHT IT UP was?! AUGH!

In t he time I've been here not ONE person has been reasonable. This is ridiculous. And it'd be so much easier not to get frustrated if those stupid buttons under every post weren't there! All they do is let stupid people disagree with information without bothering to explain why. Do you know how annoying it is to say *anything* and get 10 disagrees on it just because people hate when someone thinks differently than them, regardless of their reasoning? :cry:

[EmotedLlama]

I gotta say, I'm inclined to agree with AdamantEve. Not only do I, you know, *like* the new shirts regardless of whether or not they're stencils, AdamantEve has that point of, you know, if it's more content than we would have gotten otherwise why do we care? I mean, look: we got three previous shirts with stencils! Hey, and I like the stencils, they're cool looking! ...Wait, why is this a bad thing?

And guys, making fun of AdamantEve ("Zokugai You don't get it, they are all new and you should be grateful you have them! (irony)" "You're right, of course. What kind of idiot am I to think that just because I paid good money for an item I have a right to expect quality? ", sarcasm which I count as making fun of because it's not in any way a rational argument) is NOT RIGHT. Have a reasonable discussion, please?

EDIT: CRAP, I got into an internet argument, didn't I? I swore I was done with these!

EDIT TWO: Okay, after doing some thinking I believe I may know where each side of this argument is coming from.

The people opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that they're lazy and poor, and would rather have gotten new textures.

The people not-opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that removing the stencil-shirts and such would leave the EP still having more stuff, that it doesn't matter if they're there or not.

Am I totally off-base here?

[Zokugai]

And guys, making fun of AdamantEve ("Zokugai You don't get it, they are all new and you should be grateful you have them! (irony)" "You're right, of course. What kind of idiot am I to think that just because I paid good money for an item I have a right to expect quality? ", sarcasm which I count as making fun of because it's not in any way a rational argument) is NOT RIGHT. Have a reasonable discussion, please?

Actually, I believe we were making fun of EA.

You don't even try to talk to people, all you do is whine and yell at them when they try to have reasonable discussion!
Lol, yeah, I'm the one yelling here...

This place was nice the first day but all that keeps happening is people disagreeing with me and yelling at me when I post FACTS!!!!!!!
If people keep disagreeing with you over and over again maybe you should take a closer look at what you're saying to make people disagree with you. Just like if no matter who a guy talks to, they call him an asshole, maybe he should evaluate what it is about his behavior that's making people think he's an asshole.

Here's a tip: I don't care what you're saying, if you use more than three exclamation points, I disagree with whatever point you're trying to make. Not because I don't like what you're saying. Because I don't like how you're saying it.

And to the person saying there's not nightlife for sims 3- NO CRAP! I WAS TALKING ABOUT NIGHTLIFE FOR SIMS FREAKING 2! Like the person who BROUGHT IT UP was?! AUGH!
Dude, it's a freaking forum, chillax.

Do you know how annoying it is to say *anything* and get 10 disagrees on it just because people hate when someone thinks differently than them, regardless of their reasoning?
Do you know how annoying it is for someone to call you stupid just because you disagree with them?

That being said, I am truly impressed at the 23 disagrees your first post alone got. Way to shoot for the moon there.

[AdamantEve]

I called nobody stupid for disagreeing. I called people stupid for disagreeing with facts and/or not even bothering to give justification for it. I do not insult people who do not completely deserve it, and I have to say- disagreeing with blunt facts is deservedly stupid. Disagreeing with ANYTHING without giving justification is also stupid.

The people opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that they're lazy and poor, and would rather have gotten new textures.

The people not-opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that removing the stencil-shirts and such would leave the EP still having more stuff, that it doesn't matter if they're there or not.

Yes. Additionally, the stencils are such a simple thing to make that their presence did not in any way logically impact the rest of the game at all, too.

[Zokugai]

I called nobody stupid for disagreeing. I called people stupid for disagreeing with facts and/or not even bothering to give justification for it.
Maybe the fact that you're calling people stupid at all is one of the reasons people disagree with you. Just a thought.

I do not insult people who do not completely deserve it, and I have to say- disagreeing with blunt facts is deservedly stupid. Disagreeing with ANYTHING without giving justification is also stupid.
If it's so stupid, again, why are you still in this thread?

[AdamantEve]

You keep saying that. "Why are you still reading this thread?" "Why are you still reading our posts?"

Why are you still reading mine? ;) Take your own advice or don't give it. Giving advice you don't follow yourself is hypocritical.

[omegastarr82]

In the time I've been here not ONE person has been reasonable.


I've been around here for quite a while now but never really been on this side of the forum, I tend to stay on the creator side. I had no idea that the "discussion" side of this place was just as bad as the official forums. Nothing but whiny, self entitled, pretentious, brats. No EP/SP will ever be good enough for anyone. There will always be something to complain about. Whether it's adding online content or some re-stenciled shirts. I find it quite disheartening to find this aspect of this website the way it is.

[StarboardParoxysm]

WTF is going on in here?

http://i41.tinypic.com/4pzgbq.gif

Srsly, there's a snarky bitchslap fight over -this-? Knock it off, quit bickering, and have an intelligent conversation without resorting to namecalling and wharrgarbl or I'll have to hose the whole thread down with silly string. Flammable silly string, and my lighter finger's gettin' itchy.

[AdamantEve]

Thank you, Omegastarr. Glad to see I am not alone.

Sorry HystericalParoxysm.

[simsample]

http://thumbs2.modthesims2.com/img/5/2/8/4/8/MTS_simsample-1280032-NotThisShitAgain.jpg

Please be nice!

[Miuki]

Ok, a fight? I guess I've missed something. 0_0
I was really refering to EA with -
Zokugai You don't get it, they are all new and you should be grateful you have them! (irony) , so please do not read between the lines and imagine things.
And why do people read this thread as an EP bashing? Personally I found the topic interesting, as I research SHT facts in the sense of "to buy, or not to buy" and seing provided images I didn't like this EA practice and commented, I was not talking about the whole EP content as well, but somehow got this argument over and over in responce.
The people opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that they're lazy and poor, and would rather have gotten new textures.
The people not-opposed to these stencil-shirts believe that removing the stencil-shirts and such would leave the EP still having more stuff, that it doesn't matter if they're there or not.
Am I totally off-base here? EmotedLlama that's exactly what it is. And do you notice that people keep talking in this thread about completely different things?
AdamantEve Maybe you should try to calm down and read the thread again in the couple of days. Maybe then you will see where do "dislikes" come from and that nobody yells at you.
it is possible to be wrong! It is okay to be wrong! It is reasonable to be wrong!
;)

[Miss Puff]

It is NOT unreasonable to say that it's your "opinion" that a smaller number is bigger than a larger number!
I'm assuming here you meant that it's not reasonable, yeah? And I'd agree with that, but I don't think that's really what the argument is about here. If someone says that it FEELS like one expansion has more objects, it doesn't mean they're saying that 5 > 10. What it most likely means is that the objects in that expansion were items that they actually wanted and used, where as the items in the other were forgettable so you hardly even notice them.

It's a quantity vs. quality thing. If they had added one new shirt mesh and then added 500 stencils to it, yeah, you could argue that they added 500 new pieces of content to the game, but would you really choose 500 new stencils over, say, 20 new meshes? Or even 20 new patterns that could be added to ALL clothes and objects and wallpaper, and not just on that one mesh? I'm inflating the numbers here because I think it might be a bit more obvious what the problem is.

And sure, they can take one new hat, add it to 6 old hair meshes, and make 2 recolors of each and say we have 12 new hairs, and yes, TECHNICALLY it would be a larger amount than, say, 3 brand new, unique hair meshes. But personally, I'd say that 3 new hairstyles adds more content of VALUE than the 12 hairs that are only slightly different and reuse old content.

And god, why can I not post without it becoming a freakin' essay? I need to work on that. :wtf:

[Redhead Creations]

WTF is going on in here?
http://i41.tinypic.com/4pzgbq.gif

HP, you just made my LIFE!

[StarboardParoxysm]

http://i41.tinypic.com/4pzgbq.gif

HP, you just made my LIFE!

Then you totally need to see this, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx2qeKVtdz4

[Redhead Creations]

Bwahahahha! The death glare as he's offered the treat is the best.

Erm, back on topic... What were we talking about in this thread? Oh yeah, re-textures. I have to side with Miss Puff on this. And I love her essays.

[virgalibabe]

When they release a new EP/SP I expect new content. We already have those pieces of clothing. Do we really need new stencils for them? They are of no added value to the game. So instead of seeing them as so-called "extras", I wonder why they bother with them at all and instead spend time on creating something that's truly new. Like a new mesh or make it possible for singers to join bands.

Showtime comes with a lot of objects that are mainly clutter. Most are over the top items that have no use for regular sims families. Not to mention that plenty are hidden in the game and not accessible through buydebug, forcing people to use Simport to unlock content they paid for. We're now forced to spam our friends with requests to get stuff we want in the game. you know, the kind of crap that make me avoid Facebook.

Either way I do find it "lazy" of them to just slap some stencils on old meshes so they can pass as more content.

[AdamantEve]

I wonder why they bother with them at all and instead spend time on creating something that's truly new. Like a new mesh or make it possible for singers to join bands.


The people making 3 shirt stencils aren't the same people who make meshes or do programming, and spending time making those stencils or not making those stencils would not impact either of those things. :)

[Zokugai]

The people making 3 shirt stencils aren't the same people who make meshes or do programming, and spending time making those stencils or not making those stencils would not impact either of those things. :)

No, but the MONEY spent making those stencils could be spent on other things.

[AdamantEve]

How much money do you think was spent on these stencils?

[Zokugai]

How much money do you think was spent on these stencils?

That depends, what's the average salary of a game graphics designer these days?

[lexylu]

How much money do you think was spent on these stencils?

Adamant, sweet pea, you know what your problem is? You take everything what people say so... literally. These few stencils showed in this thread probably didn't cost much to make. But we are displeased with the general tactic that EA uses so it's understandable that it might rub people the wrong way.

The people making 3 shirt stencils aren't the same people who make meshes or do programming, and spending time making those stencils or not making those stencils would not impact either of those things.

Nobody here thinks that the same people who are responsible for programming are the ones who also make stencils... :faceslap: Again with the literal thing... When somene says that EA could spend time and money on something else instead, it doesn't mean that the people who are doing one thing should stop and do another. It means that instead of paying a bunch of guys to recycle old clothing poeple would like to see them paying another bunch of guys to improve other aspects of the game.

You don't even try to talk to people, all you do is whine and yell at them when they try to have reasonable discussion!

I haven't noticed anyone yelling at you here. And as someone who wants to have a reasonable discussion you often come off as a person who considers himself as kind of an oracle or something. And since there is no 'dislike' or 'disapprove' button, I think people might click 'disagree' to express their displeasure with your attitude rather than your train of thought.

[AdamantEve]

. It means that instead of paying a bunch of guys to recycle old clothing poeple would like to see them paying another bunch of guys to improve other aspects of the game.

Yes, and I respond by asking just how much money people think something like this costs. Do you guys really think that if they were to say "No, let's not make 3 whole stencils, let's put that money into something else" they'd be hypothetically able to pay for even one mesh? One non-animated mesh? I doubt it, which is my point. This whole thing is trivial. There or not, they don't impact the rest of the expansion pack in any tangible way.

[Shimrod101]

The new stencils are cool, new ones always are.

[Zokugai]

Yes, and I respond by asking just how much money people think something like this costs. Do you guys really think that if they were to say "No, let's not make 3 whole stencils, let's put that money into something else" they'd be hypothetically able to pay for even one mesh? One non-animated mesh? I doubt it, which is my point. This whole thing is trivial. There or not, they don't impact the rest of the expansion pack in any tangible way.

Sweetheart, they don't pay for the meshes, they pay for the manhours it takes to make them. So if someone doesn't spend three hours making a stencil, that's three hours of salary that can be spent on someone else.

For instance, someone working to make singers compatible with bands.

[dispear]

Sweetheart, they don't pay for the meshes, they pay for the manhours it takes to make them. So if someone doesn't spend three hours making a stencil, that's three hours of salary that can be spent on someone else.

For instance, someone working to make singers compatible with bands.

Like the time it takes to make a simple stencil is at all comparable to the time investment to add a complete feature like that. :rolleyes:

Singers not being compatable with bands probably has something to do with the fact that since you can change the tone of your sims voice there is no telling what octave your sims are going to be singing in. EA could have just let you choose a singing voice for your sim. But people would complain and bitch about that to :faceslap:

[crocobaura]

Like the time it takes to make a simple stencil is at all comparable to the time investment to add a complete feature like that. :rolleyes:

Singers not being compatable with bands probably has something to do with the fact that since you can change the tone of your sims voice there is no telling what octave your sims are going to be singing in. EA could have just let you choose a singing voice for your sim. But people would complain and bitch about that to :faceslap:


I think it would be quite nice to have singers that sound "out of this world" in the game. Besides, it would be like the opera singers, some sing tenor and some soprano.

[dispear]

I think it would be quite nice to have singers that sound "out of this world" in the game. Besides, it would be like the opera singers, some sing tenor and some soprano.

Oh yeah, it would totally work for simulating people who have three to four octaves. But it could be weird if too many sims sang in a voice completely unlike their speaking voice. An average person can expect to only have two octaves afterall.

[lexylu]

Like the time it takes to make a simple stencil is at all comparable to the time investment to add a complete feature like that. :rolleyes:

Exactly, there is no camparison, but money hungry EA wants to pop out a new pack every 6 months, so instead of taking time they rush things. They slap couple of stencils on old meshes instead of doing something new. And then Graham is all fake-orgasmic on the live chat while saying "tons of new stuff!". I said it once already and I'm going to repeat it for those who are not aware, in simlish "a ton" means ZILCH.

[dispear]

They slap couple of stencils on old meshes instead of doing something new.

Why is it so inconcievable that they could take three hours to make a few stencils and add something new. I don't get peoples mind set about this. I don't have SHT but it doesn't seem to have less content than the other sims 3 expansions. The moaning about stencils just obscurs the real issue, which is that the expansions don't have enough content :| .

[EmotedLlama]

Guys, you all seem to be devolving again. Maybe this discussion should just be dropped--nobody seems to be getting anywhere.

[Zokugai]

Like the time it takes to make a simple stencil is at all comparable to the time investment to add a complete feature like that. :rolleyes:
The phrase "for instance" in the English language generally indicates one of multiple possible examples.

[simsample]

Guys, you all seem to be devolving again. Maybe this discussion should just be dropped--nobody seems to be getting anywhere.

I agree- this is going in circles and there is too much condescension and calling people 'sweetheart' and 'sweer pea'.

Please keep it on topic and non-personal, please.

[Jasumi]

I actually agree with AdamantEve (especially when he said that people hate hearing the truth), but all of you are starting to worry me...fighting over stencils...:help:

[simsample]

but all of you are starting to worry me...fighting over stencils...:help:
I blame Katy Perry, we were all such a nice lot before she came along! *sob*

[lexylu]

I agree- this is going in circles and there is too much condescension and calling people 'sweetheart' and 'sweer pea'.

Agreed on the discussion, but I wasn't trying to be condescending when saying 'sweet pea', I'm sorry if it came off this way, but he was so sad that nobody likes him and many disagrees with him and I wanted to geniunely show that despite all differences I still find him endearing. :lovestruc Can't speak for Zoku though. ;)

Adamant, we good?

And yeah, it's all Katy Perry's fault! *runs to get a pitchfork and a torch*

[simsample]

Ah sorry, I misunderstood you there! That's the trouble with Internetz. :)

[KateWinslet]

[Yes. Additionally, the stencils are such a simple thing to make that their presence did not in any way logically impact the rest of the game at all, too.[/QUOTE]

This is where you are wrong, AdamentEve. The presence of these recycled stencils does impact the rest of the game for me. It's called the big picture. Those "simple thing to make" cheap-o shirts are part of a big picture of EA's flippin' laziness. I get irked thinking about how I spent hard earned money on an EP being touted as having so much more stuff, and then some of the stuff is just a cheap recycle. It's annoying. It's lazy. It's not creative. It's false advertising. It bugs me. EA, shave off at least two bucks off the game price for those recycled shirts, ok? Cuz I coulda done them myself. And guess what? Every time I scroll through the clothing and see those recycled shirts, stupid hats, etc... I am reminded of how this fun franchise keeps going downhill.

[AdamantEve]

Sweetheart, they don't pay for the meshes, they pay for the manhours it takes to make them. So if someone doesn't spend three hours making a stencil, that's three hours of salary that can be spent on someone else.

For instance, someone working to make singers compatible with bands.

The point is that the time spent making those stencils is a fraction, a small fraction, of the time it takes to complete anything else. The money spent making these stencils is definitely not enough to spend on an entirely new feature to the expansion. That's the point- they're simple, they are a quick thing to make, and spending the hypothetical money on them on something else wouldn't pay for, well, anything. Except maybe one super-stencil. And I'd like to meet the guy who takes 3 hours to make a stencil so I can punch him in the balls and tell him to stop being terrible at his job. :giggler:

Comparatively what you are asking for is for EA to opt not to spend the money on a pencil so they can doodle a picture, and instead allocate that money towards making a comic book- and ignoring the fact that not buying a pencil does not mean you can afford to draw a comic book. :wtf:

[~MadameButterfly~]

I blame Katy Perry, we were all such a nice lot before she came along! *sob*

I blame retrograde Mercury. I probably could have interjected this sooner, but I was really hoping for some hair-pulling. (I am only reading this thread for potential hair-pulling.)

[AdamantEve]

I blame retrograde Mercury.

You are a winter and should decorate accordingly.

[matrix54]

This thread is still active...

Think of it this way: EA could have EASILY ignored (it's basic images at best. Maybe one and a half days of work) making stencils, thereby removing them from the game. I'm POSITIVE if the shirts hadn't been there, this entire complaining mess of a thread wouldn't be open. You didn't waste money on anything, you paid for a small, insignificant extra - a stencil. EA has reused plenty of things in the past - don't get me started on code. This thread is the epitome of trivial.

BTW, the expansion on the first page is wrong. It's Late Night, not Nightlife.

[Zokugai]

BTW, the expansion on the first page is wrong. It's Late Night, not Nightlife.

We already covered that. Exclamation points were involved. It was bad.

[Miss Puff]

The point is that the time spent making those stencils is a fraction, a small fraction, of the time it takes to complete anything else. The money spent making these stencils is definitely not enough to spend on an entirely new feature to the expansion.
I agree with the second sentence, but disagree with the first. There are other things they could have done, it's not a choice between the extremes of nothing, stencils, or entirely new feature. Some examples would be making new texture patterns that can be used on all meshes, starting to work on making content for future expansions, or working on fixing old issues with CAS items, which I mentioned earlier in the thread:

I myself have made a fix for a top that came with Generations whose texture overlaps with bottom meshes. There are also a lot of outfits that are incorrectly categorized that people have spent time fixing, those gloves with ribbons that don't let you recolor the ribbon separately from the gloves that someone else fixed, maternity pants that don't have a maternity mesh, clothes WITH maternity meshes that aren't flagged as maternity wear, there's one top from the store whose texture shows up on shoes of all places, and probably more stuff.
For an example in Showtime itself that I just remembered, the community has had to fix the Katy Perry hair that came with the collector's edition as it was only available for adult/ya and only categorized as everyday and formal. Instead of stencils, they could have spent time making sure that the other content they were giving us was held up to a decent standard. Again, quality > quantity.

[lexylu]

We already covered that. Exclamation points were involved. It was bad.

Hahaha! I thought I was finished with this thread, but I have to say you just totally cracked me up. :giggler:

Edit: Oh, and since I'm already posting... Adamant, I asked if we were good and you didn't answer, now I'm hurt...

[metal_goat]

Fighting aside, I am curious why there isn't a seperate Showtime board.

[Miuki]

Yeah...I think the necessity of separate SHT forum is so obvious after this thread. :)
P.S. The spirit of Katy Perry be gone! ...and take the "diva" trait with you!

[matrix54]

People have no idea how video games work. The complains really are frivolous...

[Miss Puff]

People have no idea how video games work. The complains really are frivolous...
So you don't think that the people working on CAS content should make sure that their current items are correctly categorized, have the appropriate recolor channels, are flagged correctly as maternity wear and have the associated mesh if they are, are available for the appropriate age stages, and do not have broken alpha channels that cause some items to overlap when worn with other items before they spend time making trivial content to inflate the number of items they can write on the box? Can video games not "work" that way? Is it not possible to run a game company that has standards as high as the community who will do that work for them for free?

I really don't understand why it's so hard for people to realize that EA keeps releasing shoddy work and that some of us are getting fed up with it. I know that not all companies have the luxury to spend the time and money a company like, say, Blizzard does in making sure their games are absolutely stable and polished before release, but EA has been getting away with some ridiculous stuff in this series for a very long time, and personally I'm glad that more people are finally starting to say that they're not happy about it, even if they chose something as simple as reused meshes to be their pet peeve.

However, I suspect that for most people complaining in this thread, this particular issue is just one of many, and probably not even something that necessarily bothers them all that much. If the overall quality of the game and the content was consistently high, and issues and glitches were responded to regularly and efficiently, then people wouldn't care if they threw in stuff like this in their free time. But it's not, and they don't, so when we see this sort of thing, it just serves as a reminder that there are more important things on EA's mind than making a quality product. It's this reminder that causes people to bring up seemingly unrelated issues, not because they don't understand how video games work (whether true or not), but because they see this as part of an overall trend of a company that keeps releasing low quality, buggy work, whether it's in the coding or the content.

This will most likely be my last post in this thread unless someone responds to me directly, as at this point I feel like I'm mostly repeating myself and this conversation is going nowhere.

[AdamantEve]

I really don't understand why it's so hard for people to realize that EA keeps releasing shoddy work and that some of us are getting fed up with it

Perhaps you misread the title of this thread as "Shoddy retextures of previous clothing". This thread is not about shoddy work. This thread is about how EA did one thing, and not doing it would not automatically mean they could've done something else instead. THAT is why Matrix says people do not understand how games work. You can't take that argument and respond to it with whatever you want, creating your own context out of thin air. He wasn't saying "Games dont work in such a way that they cant be shoddy", yet you're responding to him as if he is. That's not what the thread's about. That's not what the conversation at the time was about. That's not the context of what he said, and it's illogical, unreasonable, and altogether outright ridiculous to respond to an argument about one thing with complaints about another.

"I think cats are lame."
"Well maybe if you didnt think DOGS were so cool you'd sympathize with ME!"

???

Here's another thing that doesn't work that way: Conversation.

[Robodl95]

This is where you are wrong, AdamentEve. The presence of these recycled stencils does impact the rest of the game for me. It's called the big picture. Those "simple thing to make" cheap-o shirts are part of a big picture of EA's flippin' laziness. I get irked thinking about how I spent hard earned money on an EP being touted as having so much more stuff, and then some of the stuff is just a cheap recycle. It's annoying. It's lazy. It's not creative. It's false advertising. It bugs me. EA, shave off at least two bucks off the game price for those recycled shirts, ok? Cuz I coulda done them myself. And guess what? Every time I scroll through the clothing and see those recycled shirts, stupid hats, etc... I am reminded of how this fun franchise keeps going downhill.
This EP does have a lot of good stuff. If the shirts weren't included I doubt people would complain about a lack of clothes. And really they've been doing this since TS2 (if not TS1), nothing to get excited about. You didn't complain about the T-shirts with several different stencils in the BG did you? SHT just added new choices.

[Miss Puff]

This thread is not about shoddy work.
This is a thread about retextures of previous clothing. Some of us think that those retextures are of low quality. Discussing this opinion is relevant to the thread.

This thread is about how EA did one thing, and not doing it would not automatically mean they could've done something else instead.
But there are other things they could have done instead, I listed some examples in my post. Are you saying that the people working in CAS could not have spent time fixing those bugs or making patterns instead of stencils? I agree that it's not automatic, it's a decision that was made, and one that I personally think shows that they do not prioritize quality.

He wasn't saying "Games dont work in such a way that they cant be shoddy", yet you're responding to him as if he is.
I responded to him to describe why some of us might think that the quality of other parts of the game are relevant to our opinions on the quality of this part of the game, even if the exact people who work on each part are not the same. I actually do agree that many people do not understand what goes into making a game, but I don't think that means they can't spot a trend of sloppiness throughout the game and see it as a reflection of how the company as a whole operates. It does mean that they might have trouble explaining their problems, which is why I wanted to explain why I think their complaints are still valid, even if they might have said things that were technically incorrect.

"I think cats are lame."
"Well maybe if you didnt think DOGS were so cool you'd sympathize with ME!"
Um, what? I'm not asking you to sympathize, I'm just trying to explain why some people see these stencils in such a negative light, and it has to do with the context of the game as a whole. If you like the stencils, that's fine. Instead of telling everyone else we're so wrong for not liking them, why don't you explain what it is you do like about them so much?

[Miuki]

Miss Puff Thank you for your "essays", I completely agree with you and you word it all so beautifully. :)
The quality aspect is seriously lacking with this sims illiteration, starting from reused meshes that clog CAS list to animations and balance.

[simsample]

I noticed today that they are also recycling music. Some of the music from the magician shows are definitely from Sim City (4 I think, although maybe its 3000?). They already had Sims 1 music in the spa and France, and some sims 2 music in the diner, so they are really searcning the archives!

[Miuki]

simsample I think it's pointed more towards people's "nostalgia", when I first got WA and travelled to France I sometimes just let my sim travel around the map to listen to music from Making Magic in map view. :rolleyes:

[matrix54]

It's great walking into a thread being attacked about an argument that had nothing to do with the argument at hand. :rofl:
I also like when people dislike me when I tell them the truth - says a lot.

Anywho, Miss Puff, from what I can see, you DO understand how video games, or at least, the Sims 3, works. Game Development is different. While I do agree, those EA slip-ups are unforgivable (time and time again), but sometimes, you have to be apart of the process to understand what goes down. I've made a few games in the past - nothing on the scale of the Sims 3, but this example is enough. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice quality to meet a deadline - this is any manufacturing job. With all of the games I've made, it doesn't matter how hard you work, or for how long - something will ALWAYS be wrong, or break, stop working, etc.

We had to make a game in 3 months. It's was a smaller project, but by the time you really look at it, you'f think it took us longer. We (more or less, I) worked my butt off to get it as perfect as possible, and there were still issues. Nothing major, but still a little buggy. The same principle applies to ea. They have a work cycle 4 time larger than ours, and the team, maybe 10 times as big - it doesn't matter what you do, there will be issues, big and small. Sometimes, you don't have the time to iron out everything, because with every change you make, something else breaks.

People also forget that the employees there are... you know... employed. Taking time away from their busy schedule to fix something is a no-no. It's happened to me many times, actually. One of my levels, on a different project from the one above, had VARIOUS issues. It was playable, and it worked, but there were still problems. I was told to fix them, and was stuck there the entire development cycle, when the rest of the group needed my. I was unable to help - and when it was done, it was still in pretty much, the same condition. In terms of EA, yeah, it will take a few minutes to enable some stencils, and a few hours to fix some alpha channels, but that's time that can be spent on the NEXT project, while the other is still in production. That's regressive. With a game like the Sims, it's take a LONG time to develop - it's being developed while players play it. Some things, like an alpha channel, or a slightly off animation, have to wait. If they don't do it while they're doing it, it will get put off until later. Things get over looked sometimes, and they are human, but the entire product isn't hanging on by a thread - it works. It's not perfect, but neither are you. Would your Mother yell at your Father because you didn't eat vegetables as a child because they tasted disgusting? It's technology - it has issues. Shit happens.

Now, you have to take a business/economics class to understand why the company will make decisions it makes. Quality is good, but some small problems can wait.

Players fix issues anyway.

[Miuki]

matrix54 Maybe that is the way you say it. Just saying. :)
And please, do realise that there are many people here who do not think that games are done with one click of the mouse by two or three employees who do everything and that the things you call small ( missing alphas, animations, sound synch and etc.) gather up and as we already have 6 EPs start being really noticeble and irritating. And I don't even speak about EA's balancing and bringing EP and base game elements together. We are all grown ups and know what working, deadlines and business practices are, believe me. Saying that players fix issues, is not right. I agree that players are extremely good at finding issues, especially in such "sandbox" type games, really it's impossible to test all possible situations but EA should really react to those finds faster.
Maybe I'm wrong, but i'm spoiled with 80s-90s games where you didn't need 20 patches for your game to work.

[crocobaura]

In terms of EA, yeah, it will take a few minutes to enable some stencils, and a few hours to fix some alpha channels, but that's time that can be spent on the NEXT project, while the other is still in production. That's regressive. With a game like the Sims, it's take a LONG time to develop - it's being developed while players play it. Some things, like an alpha channel, or a slightly off animation, have to wait. If they don't do it while they're doing it, it will get put off until later. Things get over looked sometimes, and they are human, but the entire product isn't hanging on by a thread - it works. Quality is good, but some small problems can wait.

Players fix issues anyway.


Don't know much about game design, but I always thought that there is the creative team who designs and creates the items in the game, from clothes, objects and animations and then there are the programmers who put everything together. If the animation was not done right there is no way the programmers will be able to make it appear Ok in the game. Yes, they may enable by mistake a maternity clothing that does not have a maternity mesh, but why add in game on object that does not appear or animate properly from the beginning? I think they shouldn't have testers only for the final product, but also for the separate production stages before things get added to the game.

[simsample]

simsample I think it's pointed more towards people's "nostalgia"
Yes, I think you're right- I used to put the Sims 1 and Sim City music in for when I was playing Sims 2! I miss that in Sims 3, the custom folder isn't quite the same.

I have no problem with them using old music, but I don't mind the retextured clothes either!

[Miuki]

Yes, I think you're right- I used to put the Sims 1 and Sim City music in for when I was playing Sims 2! I miss that in Sims 3, the custom folder isn't quite the same.

I have no problem with them using old music, but I don't mind the retextured clothes either!
And it's totally OK by me, I love old music very much myself, I just use Winamp, while muting music in game. :) We do, after all have different tastes and opinions.
P.S. Somehow, I'm sure, your not minding will not get any "dislikes", which are so numerous in this thread because you word it as a normal human being, without implying that those who do are ungrateful, ignorant idiots. :heyhey:

[matrix54]

Don't know much about game design, but I always thought that there is the creative team who designs and creates the items in the game, from clothes, objects and animations and then there are the programmers who put everything together. If the animation was not done right there is no way the programmers will be able to make it appear Ok in the game. Yes, they may enable by mistake a maternity clothing that does not have a maternity mesh, but why add in game on object that does not appear or animate properly from the beginning? I think they shouldn't have testers only for the final product, but also for the separate production stages before things get added to the game.

Everything takes time. There are groups who do individual jobs, but spending time to fix issues one ONE thing takes even more time. Sometimes, close is as good as you can get. I remember one woman saying she spent a month on ONE animation. Not even transitions, but the animation itself. That's ONE thing. That's probably why we get so much decor. Most of it is simple to make. It'd probably take one or two days to fix the bar to get it perfect, but that's only after making it. You'd have to program, animation, re-sync sounds, make a new version of the game, etc. It's no easy task at ALL. This is why things get pushed aside, and held over. It's very time consuming.

Now, I understand why people get upset over small stuff - I, too, am bothered by hidden stencils, alpha channels and the general mishaps that happen, and I wish they'd put a little more care into making sure those tick boxes were ticked off, and those animations were calculated, coming from someone who works with games, and understands them, I'm not going to yell at them because this "ultra cute top" isn't for pregnant Sims, or this one stencil isn't enabled. Have faith that they'll patch them. I make note, and tell EA what has happened, and hold them to their words. THEN you get upset, because of negligence.

We should be happy to have a modding community to be so active and helpful to clean up those mistakes - if they truly are mistakes).

matrix54Maybe I'm wrong, but i'm spoiled with 80s-90s games where you didn't need 20 patches for your game to work.
I'm from the 90's era. I know what you mean by out the box - perfection, but even then, there were bugs. Games didn't do as much back then, and were simpler. Expectation of games were also lowered a bit. Now, people want more, and people have to slave away to get it to the comsumer - in the same amount of time it took for the older games to be made.

[Redhead Creations]

Yes, I think you're right- I used to put the Sims 1 and Sim City music in for when I was playing Sims 2! I miss that in Sims 3, the custom folder isn't quite the same.

Is it sick to say that I listen to TS1 music randomly even when NOT playing the game, just because I like the feeling it gives me? It takes me back to that time when I totally and completely fell in love with the game.

Such a sap, I know.

[Miss Puff]

It's great walking into a thread being attacked about an argument that had nothing to do with the argument at hand. :rofl:
I also like when people dislike me when I tell them the truth - says a lot.
I'm sorry if you felt attacked, that was not my intention, but I understand that I probably came off as sounding a little frustrated. I don't dislike you, just some of the things you say. ;)

Sometimes, you have to sacrifice quality to meet a deadline - this is any manufacturing job. With all of the games I've made, it doesn't matter how hard you work, or for how long - something will ALWAYS be wrong, or break, stop working, etc.
I understand that, I really, really do. I also understand that the way game companies work, you have artists who may be done with their work before the coders are and you have to find something for them to do because you can't just pay them for doing nothing and you can't just send them away because they have to make a living so they'll have to find somewhere else to go if you're not going to keep them continuously employed.

Despite that, the company has a choice in how it will respond to bugs that come up after the game is released. It has a choice in how it uses its artists when they're done with the core content they're working on. And, most importantly, it has a choice of whether it wants to make more content, but have less time to test it, or make less content, but make sure it's of good quality.

I am not complaining about these shirts arbitrarily. I agreed with Miuki's post about the music because I think that's an example of an excellent way to save production time and cost while still providing a quality product. The players not only get to enjoy the nostalgia, but also get the benefit of more resources being available for other parts of the game. This is an example of a good choice, even though it reuses content. The shirts, on the other hand, seem to be an example of a choice to squeeze extra numbers out of the game at the last minute, at the expense of making sure that the content already in the game was up to par.

People also forget that the employees there are... you know... employed. Taking time away from their busy schedule to fix something is a no-no.
And this is a problem with the company. Someone at EA had to make a decision: they could tell the artists to make a new pattern that would add limitless new options for clothes and objects to the players, they could tell them to go back and fix the alphas for previous outfits to be included in the patch, or they could tell them to create stencils so they could reuse some meshes from a previous expansion. If the company will not let their developers fix the games issues, that means that they care more about cranking out a greater quantity of products than making quality products. This has worked for them for awhile, but people are getting tired of it and they are going to lose customers. Sure, maybe they'll be able to keep making money off of teen Katy Perry fans for now, but their loyal fans who have been buying the game for multiple iterations and get every EP aren't going to keep forgiving them for this kind of stuff forever.

In terms of EA, yeah, it will take a few minutes to enable some stencils, and a few hours to fix some alpha channels,
Actually, based on my experience, creating a stencil, creating a new item the links to the meshes, setting its presets and applying the stencil would take longer than making a quick edit to the alpha of an item that is already otherwise completed.

but that's time that can be spent on the NEXT project, while the other is still in production. That's regressive. With a game like the Sims, it's take a LONG time to develop - it's being developed while players play it.
One of my earlier suggestions for what the time creating stencils could have been spent on was starting to work on content for the next EP. If they don't have enough time to fix bugs in their work, they don't have time to inflate their item count with low quality items, either.

Now, you have to take a business/economics class to understand why the company will make decisions it makes. Quality is good, but some small problems can wait.
No, I don't (although I have), all I have to do is look at the quality of games made by other game companies. EA has decided that it must release a certain amount of EPs and SPs per year. When these get released is not up to the developers and has nothing to do with when the game is ready. The deadlines are set in advance and the developers are forced to make the game as ready as possible in this time, and are most likely no happier about this than the end users are (it sounds like you've experienced some of the downsides to working in such an environment yourself). Many game companies operate this way, to be sure, and to the detriment of the games industry, but not all. If this were a new franchise or company, I'd cut them some slack, but EA is a huge company and The Sims is one of the most popular franchises in the world. They could afford to release fewer, but better quality EPs if they wanted to, but they don't.

Players fix issues anyway.
This does seem to be the attitude the company has at times, and it's one that is very upsetting. Customers shouldn't be expected to pick up the slack. Relying on this is a very poor business model, as at any time the creators decide they're tired of cleaning up after you, your strategy will no longer work.

Furthermore, EA has consistently shown little support for the creation community, despite the fact that the huge success of the franchise is a direct result of player modding and expansion. A sandbox game like this would not have lasted as long as it did for so many people if we were stuck only with the official experience. However, EA either will not release tools, or on the rare occasion they do are often incredibly slow about it, and have become more and more stingy of even giving builders and world creators access to certain resources in the game. And before you say how hard it is to release tools, try checking out some of the other game mod communities, like the Neverwinter Nights or Elder Scrolls series.

So, the community is busy spending time fixing EA bugs, creating our own tools and digging through files to enable resources that EA thinks even people who know how to find the buydebug catalog are too incompetent to handle. Then EA shows up saying, "See, we made a new shirt! It's something that the newest community member could have made by following the first CC tutorial recommended at MTS!" and people somehow wonder why some of us are a bit disappointed by that.

Have faith that they'll patch them. I make note, and tell EA what has happened, and hold them to their words. THEN you get upset, because of negligence.
And, that's the thing. Many of us used to have faith, but have lost it and feel that they have been negligent for a very long time. I've only heard recently that they're going to be looking into patching some of the issues with store content, and I think that might likely be a response to some of the backlash they've been getting with Showtime. If there are now enough people complaining that they're realizing they can't keep shoving this stuff under the rug, I say that's a good thing.

[AdamantEve]

The shirts, on the other hand, seem to be an example of a choice to [squeeze extra numbers out of the game at the last minute]*, at [the expense of making sure that the content already in the game was up to par]^.

The core of the counter argument is that this is illogical. The people doing stencils don't do anything else for the game. Whether or not those people made these 3 stencils would not have anything to do with "making sure that the content already in the game was up to par". You're saying here that they chose to do *X instead of ^Y, where *X is "make stencils" and ^Y is "tweak literally anything else in the game". But it's not the job of the stencil makers to do that. Thus, the stencils don't affect anything else. Right? Like how a stocker at a department store spending less time on the shoe department wouldn't mean the registers move any faster. :)

[Miuki]

Oh, not you again...
Shish!
The people doing stencils don't do anything else for the game. Whether or not those people made these 3 stencils would not have anything to do with "making sure that the content already in the game was up to par".
So-called "The people doing stensils" are designers that work on creating clothes and as I understand Miss Puff meant that they (meaning designers) would've better ensured "the content already in the game" all EP and base game clothes is checked and tested (meaning enabling all morphs and alphas, checking mapping, etc.) instead of adding cloned T-shirts with stensils. Is that clear for you now? Or should I explain in more simple terms? :rolleyes:

[matrix54]

Miss Puff, I legit agree 99%. I just have one small remark - it's about the stencils and alpha channels: It's about them being made already. I meant EA fixing them (when they are enabled, and doing tweaks) and EA enabling stencil that are attached to an object. That's why I gave the time signatures I did.

Trust me, I know the hell it takes to make something form scratch. *shudders*

[Miss Puff]

Miss Puff, I legit agree 99%. I just have one small remark - it's about the stencils and alpha channels: It's about them being made already. I meant EA fixing them (when they are enabled, and doing tweaks) and EA enabling stencil that are attached to an object. That's why I gave the time signatures I did.

Trust me, I know the hell it takes to make something form scratch. *shudders*
I was basing my remark on that having myself both fixed an alpha and added stencils that already existed in the game to another mesh that already existed in the game. Admittedly, I did the later when I knew less about modding than I do now, but it is still a more involved process than editing one dds image, and that's not including the creation of the actual stencil graphic, itself. In house, I'd guess that the alpha and stencil graphic would probably both be made by the art department, while the actual insertion of those resources into the game would be done by someone else, although this is purely speculative. If this were the case, though, the alpha-edited dds and stencil graphic could reasonably take about the same time to fix/create, although it could vary one way or the other. On the other hand, inserting the new alpha would be trivial, while creating the new CAS item, setting the preset pattern and color values, and attaching the stencils would take a bit longer.

Also, I do want to say that it could quite possibly be that I am wrong about the decisions that led to these tops being made. Maybe it really is true that there was nothing else the people involved in their creation could have been doing at the time for one reason or another. But, based on what we've seen of EA's dedication to quality in other aspects of their game, I don't think it is unreasonable to doubt that and feel disappointed, either. That's why I'm trying so hard to explain that disappointment when people come in this thread and try to say that we should forgive EA because this one thing on its own isn't a big deal and if we don't we're frivolous or don't understand facts.

You're saying here that they chose to do *X instead of ^Y, where *X is "make stencils" and ^Y is "tweak literally anything else in the game".
No, what I'm saying is that they chose to do *X instead of ^Y, where *X is "make stencils" and ^Y is "make sure the CAS content they already worked on is completed with a minimum of errors". Please don't call me illogical until you've made a sincere effort to understand my argument.

[Elexis]

/*me tries to return to the actual thread topic*/

"Retextures of previous clothing" - usually EA puts new meshes in the new EP and I'm fine with that, but I always hated when the same old stuff was reused again and again. Everyone knows how CAS section can be easily filled up with lots of stuff that you cannot filter or remove otherwise, so you are doomed to wait until everything gets loaded and then scroll down until you finally are able to see what you need. And I'm not talking about CC.

Not to mention - having lots of unused stuff in the game heavily affects the speed of your gameplay.

We all have different tastes and we all like to use different CAS stuff while leaving some of it unused; and I think it's fair to have all of them when they are new (or at least altered) meshes, but not when it's the same re-cycled thing. New meshed clothing is what most of the people would want in their game (in CAS clothing category, not in general), but not everybody wants to have a gazillion versions of the same old thing. Some say that this way EA gives us more choices, but the fact is that we cannot choose if we want to have re-cycled stuff or no, especially when the whole web is filled with CC re-cycled EA clothing.

My point is, no matter how many good new meshes EA have included in SHT, the re-cycled ones aren't the best addition to the game. While the re-cycled music brings the nostalgia, the re-cycled clothing and hair brings nothing that we do not already have.

[Miuki]

Elexis I think it would stop being problematic if EA would include some sort of filter system, with which you could exclude unwanted clothes from loading, mark them usable/avoided for townies, etc. It would help CAS loading speed dramatically.

[Elexis]

Elexis I think it would stop being problematic if EA would include some sort of filter system, with which you could exclude unwanted clothes from loading, mark them usable/avoided for townies, etc. It would help CAS loading speed dramatically.

Totally agree.
But then goes another problem - people wouldn't want to pay the full price for the EP if they won't use all stuff from it :/
Though I still would like to have some sort of filtering system, I know that there are CC hiders and such, but I believe that they don't affect the gameplay speed, since the actual objects are still in game.
Even having 16gb of ram on the shiny new overclocked PC doesn't seem to be enough to load all CAS stuff instantly, so I guess there isn't much that can be done about it :turtle:

[Miuki]

Elexis But then goes another problem - people wouldn't want to pay the full price for the EP if they won't use all stuff from it :/ Off topic, I see people doing it constantly. As an example - "I don't like SHT at all but will buy it for pool table and photobooth..." and the likes. :)

I think they could come up with coherent filter system, current used for buy/build/CAS mode is definetly lacking and I don't like how your filter settings reset when you switch to live mode and back. Anyway, I believe if it was done differently and spend more time on, it would work, at least for CAS.

As for clothes, I'd also like some sort of in game stencil tool (just like the tatoo one), where you could take a T-Shirt or sweater and apply the stencil where you want it (I mean at least back/front of the item), then save your choice. After all, stencils are currently not recolourable and instead of adding new, but reused tops to CAS list add several nice new stencils which players could apply, or let them be. :llama:

[AdamantEve]

But then goes another problem - people wouldn't want to pay the full price for the EP if they won't use all stuff from it :/

But they've been doing so for 12 years. 0_o