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Test Subject
Original Poster
#1 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 5:12 AM
Default Autism - Is it a valid excuse?
I've heard quite a bit of people opinions on a different site, and I was wondering about how you guys thought of it.

A while back, someone I knew grimaced and said "ew" when a lesbian couple kissed passionately. They are severly autistic and at the age of thirteen, with a phobia of any intimate displays.
Some people didn't know this, and started to bash the child, with one lady even calling her a "disgusting homophobe of a child".
When her mother came out and explained she was Autistic and phobic of any and all intimacy, many said it wasn't a valid excuse.
But the girl would have done the same if it were a straight couple?

There are a few other incidents of Autism being "not a valid excuse" varying from case to case.

So... What's your view?
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Field Researcher
#2 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 5:34 AM Last edited by Chicken0895 : 14th Apr 2012 at 1:40 AM.
I think it is a perfectly valid excuse. Autism renders an individual a perpetual child, even though their body may look like an adult, and the child cannot help that.

Even if Autism was not a valid excuse. a phobia is medically defined, and this also a perfectly valid excuse. Because of this phobia, I do believe this girl would have acted the same way had it been a straight couple.

Straight or gay/lesbian does not matter, people still should not treat autistic children this way. Nine times out of ten they do not know any better, or even know what they are doing.

Edit: Who disagreed with me? This is your right but as I cannot see any argument against what I said I'd love to hear one.

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Forum Resident
#3 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 8:37 AM
I don't see how this is not a valid "excuse." Autistic people who are uncomfortable with intimacy will also have problems with intimacy in their own relationships, whether they are GLBTQ or otherwise. It doesn't matter who is being kissed, it is the fact that kissing is occurring at all that is bothersome.
Theorist
#4 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 10:36 AM
More like someone else's 'valid excuse' to unload their grievances on a child.
Mad Poster
#5 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 11:09 AM
The reaction could be because of autism, but doesn't sound all that unusual for a child of 13. Kids that age are all over the place in terms of maturity and some would be fine with seeing others kiss and others would be put off with it. Some kids just think it's gross when adults are affectionate. The people who bashed the child as being homophobic were either projecting their own feelings or showing a lack of understanding about kids in general.

On the other hand, if the affectionate display was within the bounds of polite behavior (not overtly sexual, for example), then the parent's response to the child should have been to explain that it is not ok to say, "eww" when couples kiss. All kids have to be taught how to behave in the company of others and kids with autism need it spelled out in concrete terms.

Addicted to The Sims since 2000.
Mad Poster
#6 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 12:34 PM
One doesn't have to be autistic to be disgusted by some uninhibited public display of affection.
Inventor
#7 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 1:05 PM
Both my sons are Autistic and have aversions to different things and react in different ways. My youngest hates babies, it was so bad when he was younger I had to cross the street to avoid him shouting at them or worse. That to me was hard to deal with and NO-ONE was tolerant obviously. I just stopped going out for a long time to avoid issues.
Autistic people have to be taught how to put themselves in others shoes as it were. They often just don't relate to other people having feelings and needs, at least not automatically. My youngest still will only communicate with others on his terms...hopefully as he gets older he will find it easier to react appropriately but it will always be something that has to be practised and worked at.

My kids have had to learn to look at how others might be feeling and what the "rules" are for social situations because it doesn't develop naturally so much.

Autism is not outwardly recognisable like other conditions...people generally think they're just bad kids/rude people, and each person with Autism is so different with their set of "symptoms" that it's often difficult to explain their behaviour and how they percieve things to other people.
I would not agree that Autism renders people perpetual children within because you just can't make sweeping statements with people affected so individually.
My sons are both diagnosed Autistic but very differently affected and my elder son is much more emotionally mature than my younger one was at the same age.
Also they go to a special school with a lot of Autistic kids from primary age right through to 18...there are very different levels of social and emotional maturity with all ages there. Just too much variation to generalise, which is one of the main reasons why Autism is so hard to define to someone confused by the unexpected /unsociable behaviour.
Banned
#8 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 1:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nottie
someone I knew grimaced and said "ew" when a lesbian couple kissed passionately. They are severly autistic and at the age of thirteen, with a phobia of any intimate displays.


That's the key line here. This autistic kid has a phobia of any intimate displays, which would imply that this kid merely appears to be homophobic. This kid may really be erotophobic, or may not have experienced seeing two women (or two men or one man and one woman) kissing passionately with each other and don't know how to react in this situation, or may not have the mental capacity to understand intimate relationships or social norms within a particular society (not all societies in the world show passionate kissing on the lips as a form of affection, by the way). Homosexuality can be a very sensitive issue at times, and some people may become very upset by others who do not show what they perceive as "tolerance". Since tolerance is a virtue and a value in developed Western nations, I think some people feign what they perceive as tolerance to become accepted by the community, and some people are raised in an environment where homosexuality doesn't bother them as much so they naturally become more "tolerant". Nevertheless, no matter how is one raised, no matter how different one's mental capabilities are, the ultimate goal seems to be to accept/tolerate homosexuality as a normal product of human behaviour. All reactions other than tolerance/acceptance, especially negative reactions, are greatly condemned, and the people who display these reactions pay a social price, because they can be perceived as morally inferior than others. I may be in the minority here, but I'd say that I actually feel sorry for the autistic girl. Homophobic reactions may not be appropriate behaviours; however, should it really be appropriate for one to completely berate another for behaviours perceived to be homophobic? Should a person, perceived as a homophobe, be treated with less dignity and respect, if that person just doesn't live up to your moral standards and cultural values? I think that alone addresses another question.
Lab Assistant
#9 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 1:58 PM
I think most 13 yo would say Ewww and bashing on someone verbally or physically is not the way to educate any child. Autistic children need extra guidance and understanding if they are to reach their fullest potential. The adults involved were showing their own ignorance and lack of understanding, shame on them.
Instructor
#10 Old 11th Apr 2012 at 11:15 PM
It really depends on the person, the level of control they have over their responses. One may not be able to control one's visceral reaction to a phobia but controlling what one says is something they could work on.

I don't really consider 13 a child, but a teenager. The mother was right to explain the situation, but the other person was right the reaction APPEARED homophobic. Was she right to chastise her? Understanding works both ways which is, the parent and the autistic person need to understand the reaction could be perceived as does the autistic person, and once the matter was explained, the other person needed to be tolerant and understand the teen's sitaution.

No one in the situtation can read minds, which is why misunderstandings occur.
Scholar
#11 Old 12th Apr 2012 at 12:17 AM
Quote: Originally posted by crocobaura
One doesn't have to be autistic to be disgusted by some uninhibited public display of affection.


^^^^^ THIS!^^^^

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Forum Resident
#12 Old 13th Apr 2012 at 8:34 PM
My thing is, even if the child was saying eww out of disgust whether it was because a lesbian couple or just a couple was kissing in general, I don't think at that young of an age people should say such things to a child. I really wonder how some people minds work, because telling an impressionable child/teen who are already self-conscious (b/c most are), that they are a disgusting human being rather than explain to them the situation or ask them why they think it is "eww?" It just goes to show you that some people are just quick to judge and spew their negative opinions on others. For example, my younger sister who's soon to be15, I call "a normal teenage girl" because she's boy crazy, immature, and just all over naive. She once said to me, "I hate jews." So I gave her this look and instead of telling her she was stupid or racist, I asked her why in the world does she hate jewish people. Do you know what she said to me? "Didn't they do something bad?" *insert eyes rolling hard* I then had to explain to her, that it was the Nazi's and Hitler who did "bad things" to Jewish people.

For me, I personally can't relate to the things most teenagers do these days as I was never immature like this. I've never been boy crazy, made rude comments out of ignorance, or thought my phone/friends were more important than my education, so this is the only 'personal" info I can offer up.

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Inventor
#13 Old 14th Apr 2012 at 3:31 AM
Of course it's a valid excuse. Autistic children/ people see the world differently and often react out of the social norm. How can you blame them for the way they are? Let alone bash them, that's disgusting.
I have tourettes syndrome as well as aspergers and from my experience there are a whole heap of people like this out there, those that don't understand or just don't want to which can add extra obstacle to those who are already having trouble fitting into society. I think everyone deserves a chance to fit in, not to be excluded because they are a bit different.
Theorist
#14 Old 14th Apr 2012 at 3:56 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Saturnfly
Of course it's a valid excuse. Autistic children/ people see the world differently and often react out of the social norm. How can you blame them for the way they are? Let alone bash them, that's disgusting.
I have tourettes syndrome as well as aspergers and from my experience there are a whole heap of people like this out there, those that don't understand or just don't want to which can add extra obstacle to those who are already having trouble fitting into society. I think everyone deserves a chance to fit in, not to be excluded because they are a bit different.

On the other hand, it's simply treating the person as if they had no disability. If they were targeting the individual with autism because of their autism, then that would be wrong; but expecting people to know or notice that someone has a disability? I'm not sure it's their fault for treating the teen as if they're a perfectly healthy person with shitty manners, until the point it's pointed out to them that they have a medical condition. I don't know how you resolve that other than to announce it, but I'm not sure it's a horrible human failure to start with not treating the disabled differently until it's made clear that there's an issue.
Top Secret Researcher
#15 Old 14th Apr 2012 at 9:33 AM Last edited by simbalena : 14th Apr 2012 at 9:54 AM.
Being a 13 year old child explains the immature response, so the fact that the individual has a psychological disorder is irrelevant. If a child/teen exhibits an antisocial response then they should be taught why their response is inappropriate (without insulting them because they are still learning how to be a member of society).

If an adult insults a child because of something the child has said then the adult is the one with the problem.
Forum Resident
#16 Old 14th Apr 2012 at 9:58 AM Last edited by nonamena : 14th Apr 2012 at 4:55 PM.
I highly recommend this article if you aren't familiar with autism, as it has some great insight into how (some) autistic people learn to overcome intimacy issues and other social impairments: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/u...?pagewanted=all

You might need an account to read the article though.

I also recommend learning about Carly's story, which might help explain how many autistic people view the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xoYwLNpvw
Carly has recently written a book with the help of her father and also has a twitter and facebook page.
Mad Poster
#17 Old 14th Apr 2012 at 12:58 PM
Quote: Originally posted by SimsLover50

I don't really consider 13 a child, but a teenager. The mother was right to explain the situation, but the other person was right the reaction APPEARED homophobic. Was she right to chastise her? Understanding works both ways which is, the parent and the autistic person need to understand the reaction could be perceived as does the autistic person, and once the matter was explained, the other person needed to be tolerant and understand the teen's sitaution.


Just so we can get on the same page, let me define my terms: I tend to refer to anyone under the age of 21 as a "kid" because, comparatively speaking, they are kids. Some of my coworkers, who are in their early 20s seem like "kids" to me as well only because of their youth.

To get to the same page in understanding, let me expand on my earlier statement about this age being "all over the place". It really is. Some teens have the wisdom and maturity of middle aged adults, but not many do. Most will have moments, and most will have thinking, behavior, and overall maturity that ranges and shifts fluidly between childlike and adult. They live in a state of fascinating and exciting flux. The younger teens especially have a huge range of behavior and maturity. Sometimes it can be hard to work with a class of eight graders, for example, because some are clearly adolescents and some are clearly still children.

As you pointed out, understanding needs to go both ways. Yes, the adults need to understand that the child was acting as children do. And the child needs to be taught social rules ("It's not ok to say, 'eww' when couples kiss") and social thinking skills ("What were the other people thinking about you when you said, 'eww'?").

Addicted to The Sims since 2000.
Theorist
#18 Old 15th Apr 2012 at 2:13 AM
Maybe, but if you're so "understanding" about people being offensive (whether it's because of their age or a medical condition or whatever) that they're not clear that what they're doing IS offensive, then I don't know that anyone ever learns any sort of social graces. Perhaps it's better to "be nice" when correcting people, but on the other hand people being offensive about other people's sexual orientation? That's kind of a big deal, it's one of those things even serial homophobes commonly learn to hide (like bigots learn to be wary about saying offensive racist titles for their antisocial fetishes) because it has an enormous impact on people's perception of you. Being a jerk to people who may or may not deserve it? Not so much, even if they're significantly young (but not so young as to provoke the "fragile child" response in people.)

So basically I see this specifically like this: Outwardly the kid did something that he should have known better than to do, and he got called on it like I'd hope people would do even if they went a little overboard because nipping this sort of thing in the bud is a good thing. But the kid also had a semi-valid (which I qualify only because I don't know the degree of his autism, if it's mild enough then I don't care about his specific phobias and nuances, he'll be better off learning to deal than everyone coddling him) excuse in his disability, which should nuance the reaction a bit. On the other hand, using the kid's autism as an excuse to slam people for "making snap judgements" and the like, when it's an entirely reasonable response unless the kid was wearing his "I'm autistic. I might say offensive things" t shirt? I think that's a little much. And even if I saw a teenager wearing the literal tshirt? I think I'd rightly be suspicious of whether or not it was a ploy of a non-disabled teen to use other people's disabilities as an excuse to be an asshole.

It's definitely an awkward situation though. Hopefully the autistic kid learns something about appropriateness of commentary in public, and the other people learn something about autism; and that's probably the best I could hope for or expect.
Mad Poster
#19 Old 16th Apr 2012 at 1:36 AM
"Outwardly the kid did something that he should have known better than to do..." Most 13 year-olds would not know better. That's why they would need to be told, "this is not ok". And as for hoping the child with autism learns something about 'appropriateness'...how abstract can you get? It's better to stick to concrete, black and white rules, "do not say 'eww' or make a face when couples kiss'.

Who are you accusing of being nice? I suggested the parent tell the child it was not ok.

Addicted to The Sims since 2000.
Test Subject
#20 Old 16th Apr 2012 at 3:52 AM
It really honestly depends on the severity of the autism.
Instructor
#21 Old 16th Apr 2012 at 5:40 AM
Sadly, most of the time it is not an autistic person saying 'ew' when a gay person kisses.
#22 Old 21st Apr 2012 at 2:13 AM
I would say in that (OP's) case it isn't an excuse, it's a reason.

Unfortunately I've come across far too many people trying to use their autism to get out of accusation when saying incredibly stupid things--things they KNOW are offensive. And as a former website moderator, we had a procedure for that, considering that a fair amount of the staff was also autistic (it was a Pokemon website so that tends to attract autistic people like cake).

I find it odd that the general perception people have of people using autism as an excuse is somehow a sign that they aren't actually autistic. Do these people think that we (I'm autistic too) are incapable of manipulation? I know that's a common perception, but it's one that has nothing to do with reality. What also disturbs me is that I often hear it from other autistics and that just plain puzzles me. Surely they'd know that it's entirely possible for us to manipulate others and bullcrap others, right?
Field Researcher
#23 Old 21st Apr 2012 at 10:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Chicken0895
I think it is a perfectly valid excuse. Autism renders an individual a perpetual child, even though their body may look like an adult, and the child cannot help that.

Even if Autism was not a valid excuse. a phobia is medically defined, and this also a perfectly valid excuse. Because of this phobia, I do believe this girl would have acted the same way had it been a straight couple.

Straight or gay/lesbian does not matter, people still should not treat autistic children this way. Nine times out of ten they do not know any better, or even know what they are doing.

Edit: Who disagreed with me? This is your right but as I cannot see any argument against what I said I'd love to hear one.

I'd like to point out that not all autistic people remain in a childlike state, and that the degree of disability can change. Most in fact do mature (like every person would) through experience and learn to adapt. Social cues may remain hard to pick up on, but embarassment from social faux pas' may drive one to develop techniques to prevent that.

I'm a little confused though by the idea of an autistic person being disgusted by somebody elses affection. I can see how hugs can be a source of overload for many but I've never heard of autistic people reacting negatively to other people being affectionate. Maybe it's just nurture, this idea that you shouldn't be too cuddly in public.

I personally don't mind, gay or straight, as long as clothes stay on :P

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Alchemist
#24 Old 24th Apr 2012 at 10:37 PM
is diabetes a valid excuse for not drinking soda all the time?

IMHO if there is a tangible medical affliction behind the behavior, it is a valid "excuse". however, i also do not deny that there are those out there who would rather use their medical condition to get away with things that they otherwise know better than to do, than explain why they are a certain (different) way.
disorders in children i am particularly skeptical of. children arent yet aware of who they are....yet somehow there's already way for them to be, and a way for them to NOT be? when i was a child, i was homophobic. why? because i did not know about myself or others, yet. i had not yet developed to the point of grasping and utilizing empathy on a regular basis. children are, by nature, SELFISH, because they need to be in order to survive in a huge world full of danger and fear. children need time to learn about the things they are encountering before they can formulate a proper response, and often it takes YEARS for them to gain the experience necessary to reach a conclusion, either way. why adults are in such a rush for children to hurry up and behave like rational, level-headed adults just boggles me, sometimes.

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Scholar
#25 Old 27th Apr 2012 at 2:26 AM Last edited by BlakeS5678 : 27th Apr 2012 at 10:23 PM.
When I say this I'm assuming the autistic child at hand was making a noticeable reaction such as pointing, making a considerable amount of noise, or making it somewhat obvious that they don't like the fact that the said couple is kissing.

I'm going to say 1 person did something wrong and they other did something immature.

The man who "bashed" the autistic child, had no right to do that.But, it IS a free country.

I'm being very biased here, and probably deserve to be bashed. But, I remember in elementary school a student in special ed much bigger than I would tease me, kick me, say really weird, perverted things to me very frequently and whenever I told an adult they would always say that he's in special ed and therefore would not be punished. Autism should be an answer, not an excuse. Autistic children as I see, want to be normal like the rest of their friends. So, shouldn't we still educate them instead of blankly ignore them?

Just call me Blake! :)
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