So when the batbox says it's "fixed and removed X number of items," it's not referring to the number of discarded CAS sims? Because those numbers are always different. I can't remember particular instances, but I know sometimes it's a three-digit number, sometimes two, sometimes only one. I think it's even been a four-digit number, but don't quote me.

To what, then, does this message refer?

In any case, I haven't had first born syndrome but the once, before I knew about rolling the pacifier, and it's not often I get two births in one play session. And the batbox has been my go-to preventative.

Yes, that message refers to the number of sims created and discarded. BHAVs have access to only one Random Number generator, and it looks like that generator is not properly seeded. However, that particular random number generator is used by all BHAVs which require a random number, so the likelihood may be that it will be called a random number of times before the batbox is used.

I saved my game immediately before a birth, then ran some tests on that birth. Every single time, the batbox created 13 sims. Further investigation indicates that very few of EA's random number generators are properly seeded. Rolling the pacifier a random number of times resolved my testing issue.

I'm glad if most people aren't experiencing this. Again, I'm probably particularly susceptible to this bug because of the way that I play. I won't report this to Pescado until I've done further testing. My tests were for my new Modified Eye Color Genetics mod, but I should really test with no other mods before reporting it. I may try to find a better solution before reporting it, too.

Ah, so presumably something about the way I play has tended to trigger generation of random numbers for other uses (all those community lots I tend to visit, maybe?) before the births happen, so by the time I get to the batbox I really do get a random number. If I understand this correctly, that probably means I don't need the batbox as much as many people do, but it makes a good insurance policy.

That's almost correct. The Random Number BHAV primitive is definitely returning the exact same number every time, when it is the first thing that occurs on starting the game. If you aren't experiencing that, then the likelihood is that the Random Number primitive is being called multiple times during your normal gameplay.

However, the fact that the Random Number primitive is being called a random number of times doesn't remove the need for the batbox. That's because the random number generators used to create babies are separate from the Random Number primitive available to us in BHAVs, and those random number generators are only used to create new characters. At the very least, we need to randomize the personality random number generator and the genetics random number generator. Unfortunately, we have no access to those random number generators except through the Make New Character BHAV primitive. So, unless your game is spawning random townies, you still need the batbox to spawn and safely remove a random number of townies.

The good thing is that the Random Number primitive used by the batbox will function (somewhat) correctly if it has already been called a random number of times.

Basically, (as far as I can tell) almost all of the random number generators in the game are broken. The programmers at EA don't seem to understand how to properly set the seed for the random number generators. Unfortunately, the seeding is done inside of the EXE, so there's no easy way for us to fix the problem, although it might be possible to patch the EXE, as Dizzy did for his Thumbnail Hack.

Fixing the seed is the correct solution, and will produce the best results. The next best alternative is to run the random number generator a random number of times. This won't give us the best results, but will still be better than the alternative.

Unfortunately, Pes used the (broken) random number generator to decide how many times to Make New Character. The solution is to skip the (broken) Random Number primitive and find a truly random number. There are a number of possible options, but BHAVs don't have access to many of those options. Perhaps the best one would be to use LUA, which should have access to a (hopefully unbroken) random number generator of its own.

My delay in reporting this to Pescado is not because I am unsure of my results, but because Pes asks us to report problems in a specific way. As a courtesy, I intend to do the additional research before reporting the bug.

I get truly random, or a fairly good imitation of random, from the batbox--the last two were five and twenty. Is there something I could help with testing, Mootilda? I keep an empty Anygame for testing stuff (since I don't program/create, I figure it's what I can offer from time to time).

Thanks for the offer, but it's probably easier to do all of the work myself, so that the results will be guaranteed to be consistent.

I use batbox randomizer first thing any time I play. Enter a household, cancel action for a sim and hit the box.
I think I get a bit too many 23 or 25. As I thought "..items removed" was individual features (ah ha stupid) I didnt bother too much about it, now I guess this means I have to do something about it.
So, to run the randomiser once more directly after the first will get me a true random then?

There's no way to get a true random number from the EA source code, because the random number generators are not seeded correctly. With a true random seed, the numbers that you get out of the random number generator are much more random, although they still follow a strict algorithm. For all intents and purposes, though, a random seed gives the best result and appears most random.

However, without a random seed, there is a specific list of numbers and you just get to choose which of those numbers to start with. After that, the "random number generator" will just give you the list in sequence. One could determine that list by running the random number generator over and over again and then writing down the results. Most of the random number generators that EA uses are not properly seeded. This is why you must call the randomizer a random number of times to get the best results that are currently possible. This gets you somewhere into the sequence of numbers.

I have learned that I must have other MATY hacks installed to see the random number bug. I suspect that the random number generator is being used when those hacks are not in place. There appears to be no other requirement to see the bug. I have not yet narrowed down which hacks are actually calling the random number generator; I'm not sure that it's worth my time to investigate further. Instead, I have been looking into whether there is any way to get the batbox a random number from available (BHAV) data.

Again, the best solution for this problem is to patch the EXE so that each of the random number generators are seeded correctly, especially because I just don't seem to be able to get into the habit of rolling the pacifier multiple times before a birth. Quatchi and I have been discussing this issue and we may try to create a patch which is compatible with Dizzy's thumbnail hack for M&G. However, neither of us is inclined to consider creating patches for every EP and SP.

After missing out on a lot and reading what I missed out, I have been wondering now becasue I'm a bit confused: should we use the sim randomizer from the batbox several times?

Here is what i did, before a birth, I would use the batbox once, then I would go to CAS to do the rolling of the pacifier (a random number of times, I really don't keep track of how many times I do it), that way I hope I guarantee that randomization has actually occurred, and its once per play session. Is this enough? Because I can see some differentiation...

The Batbox asks for a number from a non-seeded random number generator, then creates that many new sims, then exits the lot without saving so that you don't end up with a ton of unwanted sims.

Because the Batbox is using a non-seeded random number generator, the "random" number that it gets isn't very random. You can increase the randomness of the process by using the Batbox sim randomizer a random number of times.

However, that particular random number generator is used by other processes during game startup, depending upon the hacks that you have installed (and probably depending upon the EPs that you have installed). So, you may be getting a somewhat random number without using the Batbox sim randomizer multiple times.

How can you tell? The Batbox will print out the number of sims created (although the error message isn't obvious). If you consistently see the exact same number displayed, then you should run the sim randomizer a random number of times, or roll the pacifier a random number of times. However, if the Batbox is displaying different numbers, then I wouldn't worry about it.

In my case, the Batbox always generates exactly 13 sims, so it isn't helping me at all.

Recently I examined my population in SimPE and I noticed that 6 sims are named Caryl. So, if there are ~100 non-playable sims of which ~50 are female then more than 10% of the females are named Caryl!
(This is not a problem, I just noticed it.)

I suspect that there are also problems with the randomness of the name selection for generated townies. Yet another thing to research.

OMG! It seems that anything to do with randomness in the game is broken!

As far as I can tell, the EA programmers consistently made the exact same mistake with each random number generator that they used. There are very very few that are actually correctly seeded.

The amazing thing is that they never thought that this was worth fixing. 10 EPs (including M&G and SE) and 8 SPs, numerous patches for each EP, and they just never thought that it was worth the few minutes to properly seed the random number generators.

Please, EA! Give me the source code and I'll fix that for you!

Why not send them an email with all of the explanation?

Tell them that this is what happens and blah blah and this is how it can be fixed blah blah...

:P

EA is no longer doing development on Sims 2, so they would ignore me.

Besides, it might not be wise to admit how much I understand about their coding. I'm a baaaad girl.

Seriously, we've known about the firstborn syndrome for a long time and Pescado reported the problem with the random number generators back near the beginning of the series. Any reasonable programmer could find and fix the problem in a day or less. EA does not consider this to be a problem which is worth fixing.

Oh, I'm sure there is. I know of a player who had a string of Allyn's, which is a name I've seen a number of times myself among newly-generated townies. Another time, I had three newly-generated strays in a row named Alabama.

Not statistical proof, I know, but enough to strongly suspect. Especially in light of known issues of (non)randomness in other areas.

I can't tell you how many times I've railed that EA should listen to the modders of the community!!! *sigh*

ETA: There are threads at MATY where a Maxoid asks for feedback on new EPs to get an idea what needs patching, which is really cool. But I guess one or two Maxoids gathering info didn't have the power to make sure certain things actually got fixed. SO close, yet so far.

Well, if Quatchi and I ever get around to trying to create a patch, we'll look into the names too. Once we have the call to get the system time, we might be able to seed all of the global random number generators at the same time.

Mine are Abhijeets. I get so many Abhijeets that it makes my head spin. I seem to be particularly vulnerable to all of the random number generator failures. For one thing, I allow very few townies to generate. For another, I frequently quit and restart my game, which resets all of the random number generators.

Do you have a link to that thread? Any that have been posted to this year? I'd be happy to add a few thoughts.

Oh, the threads involving Maxoids (really, just MaxoidTom, with references to MaxoidSam that don't appear have anything to do with troubleshooting) are ancient and inactive.

But if you're interested in seeing what took place, a perusal of MaxoidTom's posts is a good way to see the various threads he was involved in.
http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/s...54;sa=showPosts

ETA: Interesting that a lot of the names people see too often start with "A".

Thanks, Darby. I will look those over.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that EA is doing any more development on Sims 2, not even a final patch to fix some of the worst bugs. If we want this fixed, we're probably going to have to do it ourselves. My life has been pretty hectic lately, but I'm very interested in getting a fix because I'm so prone to the problem. I also seem to have a really hard time remembering to roll the pacifier because I'm always eager to see the baby.

Highly motivated; very little time... guess we'll just have to see which one wins out. At least Quatchi and I have been discussing how to fix the problem (in theory), so it's on both of our minds.

Aha! Thats why I get all these Alon chaps running around!

(Until I simblend them that is. Very odd name....)

And update on my batbox randomiser. Last four days gave me 14, 19, 17 and 18. My box seems to work :D

Mootilda
Highly motivated sounds better than no time. The product of highly motivated sound even better. Oh how I wish I could send over some time!

"Seems to" is the operative phrase. I'm glad that so few people see the problem with the random number primitive that the batbox uses. Makes sense, though. If most people saw the problem with the random number primitive, then Pescado would never have used it.

Yet another "A" name. Hm.

You're welcome, Mootilda. Should be some interesting reading there.

I can't imagine anyone at EA is doing anything Sims 2 related, nor has done for probably years. It's definitely up to modders like you who're still active and interested to make any wanted changes.

I'm pretty used to living with the game's shortcomings, at this point, but I'm glad you and Quatchi are willing to look into ways to make it better, even at this late date. Anything y'all come up with will be an unexpected and much appreciated bonus! :lovestruc

Agreed! :-) All of the modders and creators here provide valuable additions to my, and other people's, games. I honestly don't know how I'd play without mods nowadays. Especially some of the fixes from MATY and other sites....

Since EA isn't even fixing long known problems with Sims 3, I very much doubt that they would take a look at Sims 2. If a modder can fix it, he/she is the most likely person to fix it.

I refuse to play without mods, it is too frustrating, and in some cases, too many bugs to play with out them.