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Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#1 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 1:04 PM
Default for europeans: the european constitution.
i would like to hear from some other people why they would choose for or against a European constitution

should all the members of the eu obey a higher constitution, is it possible to have one that is acceptable for all its members, would it actually be useful

here is an example of why it would be useful

a Belgian fled to Poland where some of its relatives live because he was wanted for murder, a European law(or arrest or guide line don't know how they call them) states that if a person who is in a different EU country and wanted by the police in another one that he must be extradited to the police of the country where the crime was commited.
but the polish constitution states that they cannot extradite polish citizens to other country's
the situation was eventually solved after a while, and he was extradited to the belgian police

things like that make it difficult for EU to operate

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
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Test Subject
#2 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 1:32 PM
Hmm ... I do think a constitution would be a great thing, basically because it would melt all treaties we have now into one piece. That'd simplify EU-law.
I don't have the time to give a big statement now, but I'll definately watch this discussion and write more later on. I have lived in Brussels for a while and worked for the EU, so I know what I'm talking about

However, for your example: EU-law stands above state laws when the particular state is a member of the EU, so Poland would always have to work together with Belgium or whatever state and maybe Europol to help find a criminal, so I don't think that we'd need a constitution for this problem ...
Theorist
#3 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 6:20 PM
No. Each country in the EU is an independent nation, and should have the right to determine its own policy. They may be tied together economically, so there aren't 40 different currencies to keep track of, but each nation is different from each other in very significant ways, with differences in laws, traditions, etc. It is not the same situation as the United States Constitution...states in the USA are not independent countries, such as France, Spain or Germany, American states were created under the banner of a single Federal government as they were being created out of colonies. The colonies had existed independently for 100 years, not 500. When you have been an independent nation state for as long as some European countries have, I doubt that an EU Constitution would ever be ratified by each country's Parliament, Bundestag, or what have you. I doubt you would get anything but a fringe element in support of creating ANY set of laws that would deprive the nations of their independence in that manner. Trying to create a continental set of laws for a large group of nations for every citizen to follow is not the same as creating military alliances such as NATO. I seriously think creating a European Constitution would never work. With as different as the nations are from each other, who gets to decide whats included? Do bigger countries get more power in deciding than small countries like Luxembourg? It works in America, because the states were set up to be part of a Federal government, not 50 nations, with long histories trying to become one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Forum Resident
#4 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 6:42 PM
You guys talk about the good of the EU constitution. But what of the negative? One comes in the form of National Defence. This is out of UK alone from back in Feb.

Quote:
A MEMBER of the Territorial Army has been told he cannot serve his country and keep his day job under new European working regulations.

The postal worker, who we have agreed not to name, faces having to give up his paid post with the Territorial Army by April when new laws limiting working hours for lorry drivers are put into place.

The extraordinary case raises the question of whether thousands of TA soldiers, fire fighters and special police constables who drive for a living will face problems because of the new EU legislation.

UK Independence Party MEP Nigel Farage said the situation would be “laughable if it wasn’t so serious”.

“Not only are the EU working time rules that they have agreed to destructive to jobs and enterprise, but now because of their own cack-handed approach they are even prejudicial to our national interest.”

From April, new EU regulations on vehicle drivers’ working hours come into effect, including new weekly driving limits and requirements for rest periods.

It is a criminal offence for drivers not to take their minimum daily and weekly rests and the new rules will also make employers liable for prosecution.

Any secondary work a driver does in their spare time does not count as resting. As a result, the man received a letter from his employers last week stating that his paid service with the TA was cutting into his rest time.

He must now either quit the TA or the Royal Mail or find another job within the company by April.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Test Subject
#5 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 6:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
No. Each country in the EU is an independent nation, and should have the right to determine its own policy. They may be tied together economically, so there aren't 40 different currencies to keep track of, but each nation is different from each other in very significant ways, with differences in laws, traditions, etc. It is not the same situation as the United States Constitution...states in the USA are not independent countries, such as France, Spain or Germany, American states were created under the banner of a single Federal government as they were being created out of colonies. The colonies had existed independently for 100 years, not 500. When you have been an independent nation state for as long as some European countries have, I doubt that an EU Constitution would ever be ratified by each country's Parliament, Bundestag, or what have you. I doubt you would get anything but a fringe element in support of creating ANY set of laws that would deprive the nations of their independence in that manner. Trying to create a continental set of laws for a large group of nations for every citizen to follow is not the same as creating military alliances such as NATO. I seriously think creating a European Constitution would never work. With as different as the nations are from each other, who gets to decide whats included? Do bigger countries get more power in deciding than small countries like Luxembourg? It works in America, because the states were set up to be part of a Federal government, not 50 nations, with long histories trying to become one...


It seems as if you don't know that we already have a big set of common laws in the EU. In fact, over 80% of the laws that pass the German Bundestag (parliament) are EU-laws.
The EU constitution, if it should be agreed on, was just supposed to be a way to simplify the legal body of the EU and to rearrange things since the EU has grown a lot since the Treaties of Rome (on which the EU is mainly based) that were signed 50 years ago. And it already passed several state parliaments when France and The Netherlands voted "No". Now the process is stuck and people like Angela Merkel are trying to bring the topic back to the agenda.

AmishNick, I don't really see where the problem is. I think it is good to enforce breaks because this will help avoiding accidents.
Forum Resident
#6 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 6:57 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Gerbera
Amish Nick, I don't really see where the problem is. I think it is good to enforce breaks because this will help avoiding accidents.
From the article;

"The extraordinary case raises the question of whether thousands of TA soldiers, fire fighters and special police constables who drive for a living will face problems because of the new EU legislation."

So when they are forced to quit helping their nation by doing those things because their regular jobs pay better, and your nation finds its self with a shortage of soldiers, fire fighters and police, and an emergency happens and their services are needed, and they aren't there, will you still agree that it is a good thing?

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Mad Poster
#7 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 6:59 PM
Actually, the Euro is the official curency of 13 of the member countries, and in the future the number of countries adopting the Euro will grow. The main reasons the EU was formed were for economical purposes as well as geopolitical strategic positioning. It allows easier exgange of goods within its member states and also protects them from american (or other superpower) economic monolopy.
A constitution merely puts forth the rules according to which the component states or countries collaborate with each other, it doesn't mean that european countries will lose all national identity or power because of a common constitution. They'll still have their own constitutions and set of laws, it's just that they will need to make them so that they do not contradict with the EU constitution.
Test Subject
#8 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 7:03 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Amish Nick
From the article;

"The extraordinary case raises the question of whether thousands of TA soldiers, fire fighters and special police constables who drive for a living will face problems because of the new EU legislation."

So when they are forced to quit helping their nation by doing those things because their regular jobs pay better, and your nation finds its self with a shortage of soldiers, fire fighters and police, and an emergency happens and their services are needed, and they aren't there, will you still agree that it is a good thing?


In this case it seems as if the country is doing something wrong. The question should be "Why do they pay their most important people (fireman etc) so few money for such a long time of working that they have to have other jobs to make a living that now collide with their service?"

Quote: Originally posted by crocobaura
Actually, the Euro is the official curency of 13 of the member countries, and in the future the number of countries adopting the Euro will grow. The main reasons the EU was formed were for economical purposes as well as geopolitical strategic positioning. It allows easier exgange of goods within its member states and also protects them from american (or other superpower) economic monolopy.
A constitution merely puts forth the rules according to which the component states or countries collaborate with each other, it doesn't mean that european countries will lose all national identity or power because of a common constitution. They'll still have their own constitutions and set of laws, it's just that they will need to make them so that they do not contradict with the EU constitution.


Exactly. And that's already the way it is now, the constitution was not supposed to change anything about that.
As I have already said, it just should put all the treaties we have now into one document, simplify them a bit and make some adjustments to the changed situation we have 50 years after the now-so-called EU was founded.
Forum Resident
#9 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 7:24 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Gerbera
In this case it seems as if the country is doing something wrong. The question should be "Why do they pay their most important people (fireman etc) so few money for such a long time of working that they have to have other jobs to make a living that now collide with their service?"
Known fact, Civ jobs can and some times do pay higher then government jobs. Regardless of the nation you live in.

Here in the states, professional firefighters working full time earn $34,000 per year on average. I make more then that. And I work retail.

In order to pay these people the better wages, you need to do what every one hate scream about the most, pay higher taxes.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Test Subject
#10 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 7:26 PM
I think I can't give an unbiased opinion on this topic because I do work for the government
In my opinion my salary is quite okay, and really, 34000 sounds a lot to me ... Someone that would do my job fulltime would make about 21000 bucks a year. I don't get half of that and still have a good life.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#11 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 10:00 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
No. Each country in the EU is an independent nation, and should have the right to determine its own policy. They may be tied together economically, so there aren't 40 different currencies to keep track of, but each nation is different from each other in very significant ways, with differences in laws, traditions, etc. It is not the same situation as the United States Constitution...states in the USA are not independent countries, such as France, Spain or Germany, American states were created under the banner of a single Federal government as they were being created out of colonies. The colonies had existed independently for 100 years, not 500. When you have been an independent nation state for as long as some European countries have, I doubt that an EU Constitution would ever be ratified by each country's Parliament, Bundestag, or what have you. I doubt you would get anything but a fringe element in support of creating ANY set of laws that would deprive the nations of their independence in that manner. Trying to create a continental set of laws for a large group of nations for every citizen to follow is not the same as creating military alliances such as NATO. I seriously think creating a European Constitution would never work. With as different as the nations are from each other, who gets to decide whats included? Do bigger countries get more power in deciding than small countries like Luxembourg? It works in America, because the states were set up to be part of a Federal government, not 50 nations, with long histories trying to become one...


you know apparently very very little of the situation in the EU, in theory yes we are independent nations ,but in fact its members are not, its members cannot wage war on each other, they cannot close borders, stop trading

and no the Europeans are not very different from each other, there might be a few(Poland for instance is still very catholic) but in reality we're very united and follow quite similar policy's, and there are already lots of laws that govern its members


Quote: Originally posted by Amish Nick
Known fact, Civ jobs can and some times do pay higher then government jobs. Regardless of the nation you live in.

Here in the states, professional firefighters working full time earn $34,000 per year on average. I make more then that. And I work retail.

In order to pay these people the better wages, you need to do what every one hate scream about the most, pay higher taxes.


in america there is something you can do better, cut on military spending

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
Inventor
#12 Old 13th Aug 2007 at 11:02 PM
Quote: Originally posted by wargarurumon
you know apparently very very little of the situation in the EU, in theory yes we are independent nations ,but in fact its members are not, its members cannot wage war on each other, they cannot close borders, stop trading

and no the Europeans are not very different from each other, there might be a few(Poland for instance is still very catholic) but in reality we're very united and follow quite similar policy's, and there are already lots of laws that govern its members




in america there is something you can do better, cut on military spending


You got that right wargarurumon, and they (America) also has no problem with large tax cuts for the rich or big business helping in the fleecing of its citizens. They complain about not having money for schools and their bridges are falling down, but we have money to kill and obliterate nations and make commitment to help build them back up. Rank 44 in the world for life expectancy in front of Mexico, yeah, we are a great country. :buddies: :eviltongu

A large number of citizens with no health care and questionable individuals running the country but we love our capitalism, go figure! :haha: :mute: :laugh:
Scholar
#13 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 1:02 AM
Quote: Originally posted by wargarurumon
but in reality we're very united


I had to laugh when I read that, us Brits have been fighting it all the way and have used our power of veto on many occasions.

I think the Eu makes up rules and regulations just for the sake of it sometimes. I mean did it really matter that we used the imperial system? Did we really have to change everything to metric? If I ask my butcher for 600g of steak he doesn't know what I am talking about...

And the new working times directive is a nightmare. My husband is a firefighter and they have trouble getting people to cover shifts because they are over their hours or they haven't had 11 hours break (even though they sleep all night anyway). They sometimes have to get officers in to cover shifts, and then they get over their hours and have to take a firefighter off shift to act up as an officer to cover their position!
Top Secret Researcher
#14 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 1:07 AM
Quote: Originally posted by romyhorse
And the new working times directive is a nightmare. My husband is a firefighter and they have trouble getting people to cover shifts because they are over their hours or they haven't had 11 hours break (even though they sleep all night anyway). They sometimes have to get officers in to cover shifts, and then they get over their hours and have to take a firefighter off shift to act up as an officer to cover their position!


I know. There was a bit in the news today about a Postman who works part time with the Terrestial Army, but thanks to the new working times, he's been told that he has to give up one job or quit both and find another. It's stupid really.

At least we don't have the Euro. That's one thing to be thankful for.

I would like to clear up the little matter of my sanity as it has come into question. I am not in any way, shape, or form, sane. Insane? Hell yes!

People keep calling me 'evil.' I must be doing something right.

SilentPsycho - The Official MTS2 Psycho
Forum Resident
#15 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 3:34 AM
Quote: Originally posted by romyhorse
I had to laugh when I read that, us Brits have been fighting it all the way and have used our power of veto on many occasions.

I think the Eu makes up rules and regulations just for the sake of it sometimes.

Interesting point you have there. I'm not in Europe, so I don't know the answer to this as well as others, but on a British Military board I check occasional one of the members had an interesting statement toward this regarding EU law. Basically he said that while UK tends to follow all the EU regulations, other nations like France picks and chooses which they wish to follow. Not all that fair I say. Great unison going on there.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Theorist
#16 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 5:19 AM
The differences between France and the UK is enough for me to think a "European Constitution" would never work. The basic philosophical differences are enough to prevent a true cohesive document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
#17 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 6:03 AM
Now this depends on entirely what the "European constitution" would be.

A simplified agreement that combined all the past ones and made a lot of bureacracy go away? I would love it, but it seems unlikely it's going to work out in the near future. When simplifying, something is always left out, which will be against someone's interest. As long as that someone is a major power, they have the power to say no. And interests tend to conflict.

A true constitution that made us into the United States of Europe? Ummm, no thank you. At least, not yet. I know we have given up a lot of power to the EU, but there's still much more - completely different cultures, with completely different policies concerning taxation, social benefits, business life (we may have the Euro and working time limits for drivers, but regulations for firms, trade unions, employers and employees still vary a great deal), education, health care, etc. Unifying these issues would be a pain (and the same policy wouldn't work everywhere - we may all be Europeans but we have different cultures, governmental histories and policies) and leaving them be would not work should we be a nation. Maybe with "federal" and "state" policies, but that'd be another bureacracy network.

My opinion is influenced by the fact that as a small country we actually have to follow the EU regulations. Oftentimes these regulations are made with the bigger powers in mind, because they have more power in the EU. We have seen that the policies that help them maybe completely wrong for us.
For example, for a few years, we have had an economic boom, with soaring apartment and house prices. But Germany was lagging behind, so to get the motor of the EU going, the interest rates were kept low. It worsened our situation - many people now have dangerously big mortgages they will definitely have problems with now that the interest rates are on the rise.
Test Subject
#18 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 6:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Amish Nick
Interesting point you have there. I'm not in Europe, so I don't know the answer to this as well as others, but on a British Military board I check occasional one of the members had an interesting statement toward this regarding EU law. Basically he said that while UK tends to follow all the EU regulations, other nations like France picks and chooses which they wish to follow. Not all that fair I say. Great unison going on there.


That's not quite true. Actually Britain is one of the states that are most "picky" because a lot of Britains are still anti-european.
France, like Germany, was one of the founders of the EU and is one of its most important countries, and one of the most "european" ones (though I don't know how that will change with Sarkozy now).
#19 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 7:29 AM
All the big powers in the EU have chosen not to follow some regulations. The most radical example was letting the German budget deficits go unsanctioned, even though it had been stated before hand that they had to stay at a certain level and that level was same for everyone with Euro. The problem is that EU needs the bigger states and needs their economies going, so not much can be done about them breaking the regulations, which they will do, if they feel it is in their best interest / not avoidable without a significant cost. Understandable, but not very unified and makes me wonder what even more "uniform" policies could do.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#20 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 7:46 AM
Quote: Originally posted by romyhorse
I had to laugh when I read that, us Brits have been fighting it all the way and have used our power of veto on many occasions.


well i always thought that the British weren't very constructive most of the time in the EU

but you'll be surprised how much we closely resemble culturally speaking

Quote: Originally posted by Kaeru
I know we have given up a lot of power to the EU, but there's still much more - completely different cultures, with completely different policies concerning taxation, social benefits, business life (we may have the Euro and working time limits for drivers, but regulations for firms, trade unions, employers and employees still vary a great deal), education, health care, etc. Unifying these issues would be a pain (and the same policy wouldn't work everywhere - we may all be Europeans but we have different cultures, governmental histories and policies) and leaving them be would not work should we be a nation.

For example, for a few years, we have had an economic boom, with soaring apartment and house prices. But Germany was lagging behind, so to get the motor of the EU going, the interest rates were kept low. It worsened our situation - many people now have dangerously big mortgages they will definitely have problems with now that the interest rates are on the rise.


i think you may have an interesting point there though

but those different cultures mostly just applies to the new ones(Poland,...)
the older members are already more united than most people would like to accept

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
#21 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 8:02 AM
Who's we? And what's newer? Just the 2004 joiners, or also those, who joined in the 90's as well? The Benelux, France and Germany may be close to each other culturally speaking. You can add in Austria as well. But the Scandinavia is whole different issue (we have a completely different society structure actually: based on much higher taxes and more complete social benefits, including very strong trade unions), the new Eastern European member states are yet another issue, and Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy also have a different way to go about things.

For me, culture is reflected in the structure of the society - and that's were differences surface. That's what would have to be more uniform, should we want to be a nation.

Edit: It's not so much about if we "are" or "feel" united in spirit - it's the fact that our structures ar enot uniform. Most people are against radical changes in the system when it concerns their every day well-being, no matter how European they are.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#22 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 8:11 AM
i'm talking about the 2004 joiners
they still have some of the old soviet culture

Belgium also has higher taxes, one of the best social security, and quite strong trade unions, but does a German or a French or a fin feel himself so different than us Belgians

culturally for me means how much we see each other differently from us
for a brit a morrocan looks allot different than a German, doesn't it

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
#23 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 8:22 AM
I am a Finn. I do see a Moroccan as someone more different from me than a Belgian, true. And I do see a Belgian as someone quite different than - if not me, a general Finn. You have all the right to define culture differently than I do - but I am trying to say that cultures create the social structures. And the structures that exist now are concrete things that would need a lot of fiddling with in the case of a European constitution and I do not think the result would be satisfactory.

Seeing ourselves as quite similar people is nice and helpful - but in the end it's an abstract thing, which doesn't lead too far. In my opinion, the Eu agreements need re-writing & simplifying. Wish that would work out. But I think we have a lot more to do, on a practical level, before we could really become a state.
Test Subject
#24 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 9:14 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Kaeru
Seeing ourselves as quite similar people is nice and helpful - but in the end it's an abstract thing, which doesn't lead too far. In my opinion, the Eu agreements need re-writing & simplifying. Wish that would work out. But I think we have a lot more to do, on a practical level, before we could really become a state.


Nobody wants the EU to become one state!
I think the word "constitution" is just misleading. It is not meant to form one European state but to do what I have mentioned earlier.
It is already written so you can read it, but since France and The Netherlands have said no we have to find a new way to simplify EU-structures ...

And to the cultural issues: As I have already mentioned, I have lived in Belgium for some time (I am German myself) and worked for the EU.
I have met many people from all over the EU and it was really fun, and I realized that we all are not so different.
My favorite event was a "stagiaire" (don't know how to translate that into English) party, organized by Irishs and Italians. It was so much fun! Both countries had local food and organized local bands so it was a really mixed evening, but still cool. Everybody was invided, so there were also people from all other EU-countries and everybody got along very well.
So, it may be that we are a bit different when it comes to how the state is organized (we have monarchies, democracies, ...) but in the end we are all europeans, that's how I see it.
When everybody gives up a bit of their national proudness and actually travels to other countries to see what life is like there, we wouldn't have so many prejudices, I think.
#25 Old 14th Aug 2007 at 1:03 PM
I have travelled in Europe, and I went to an international high school. I consider myself a European and I know we're not much different, as people. Yet the societies are. The economies are. Usually the smaller countries don't get much of a say, and while I am not against the EU (I know we need it), I have seen also negative consequences of the EU over here, mostly caused by centralised decisions in bodies where the majority does not know the situation over here / does not think about it.

I understood from the first post, specifically from the wording "a European constitution", (not, "the EU constitution") that this thread would be more hypothetical and not necessary referring just to the model that was developed and then rejected. I have already said that a constitution like it I would agree with - I do think EU needs figures like the proposed president and foreign minister that can really have a say in world politics. I am not too fond of the idea of dropping the number of Commission members though and EU legislation for immigration sounds potentially scary. But for the most part that model seemed sound to me.

Sorry if I was confusing.
 
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