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Original Poster
#1 Old 22nd Oct 2005 at 4:03 AM
Default Plee for help: Mac Modding
*le sigh*

Is there anyone who is working on any sort of program that would let users of Macintosh edit object meshes, make recolors, and edit clothing meshes? Something that would let us do everything else that SimPE does would be fantastic, as well.

I'm pretty good with my little 3d program, and I'd really love to be able to actually make things. I've been asking around, but it's always "Use SimPE! Use SimPE. Why can't you use SimPE?" Same for things like changing last names, even when I very clearly state I'm on a Mac. People don't seem to realize that we don't even get Homecrafter, let alone SimPE.


Anyways, are there any programs in the works, and if so, would you need my help? I'm not very good at programing yet, but I supose I could be usefull.
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Zombie Coder
#2 Old 22nd Oct 2005 at 5:09 AM
Tools like SimPE and DatGen are massive. DatGen itself has 330,000 lines of code, and I'm sure that SimPE has at least that much, possibly more. I've used Objective-C in the past, which is what OS X programs are written in, and its not the most friendly of languages. I'll take a guess that it would require about 450,000 lines of Objective-X code, minimum, to duplicate what SimPE does in a MacOS X program. I think the low volume of OS X users, and the difficulty that comes with programming for OS X, is why there are no modding tools available. I think that also explains why the official Maxis tools like HomeCrafter are not available on Mac OS X. I did try to run DatGen on OS X using Mono (www.mono-project.com), but it was unsuccessful (and extremely difficult to install all the required modules and libraries to get Mono itself working). If your willing to spend at least a year of your life coding, and have several friends who can code Objective-C, you could probably duplicate what SimPE offers, but you would have to put a LOT of time and effort into the project (just to prepare you for what you might be getting into).
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Original Poster
#3 Old 22nd Oct 2005 at 7:53 PM
Hmm. You're right, Objective-C isn't the nicest of languages, but it's not that bad. I do understand that it would take forever, but if I could find the other people who also want to do this, it might be possible. SimPE has open sorce sorcecode, but I have no idea if it's usefull.


I can't be the only person in the entire world who plays sims2 on a Mac and wants something like this, can I? It doesn't seem quite fair that we don't even get homecrafter or bumpmaps. I mean, Macs are used mainly by artists and the like, so they tend to have high-end GCs. I know mine could handle the bumpmaps, but noooo...

Sorry, off topic. I might be able to figure something out using VNC and the crummy used PC we have that just barely runs 98, but that would be giving up.
Zombie Coder
#4 Old 22nd Oct 2005 at 10:55 PM
Not to burst anyones bubbles, but Macs lack a lot of the programming capabilities of Windows PC's, as well as the abilities to go very low level and troubleshoot anything and everything when developing a program. The vast majority of people don't even realize it, mostly because they never work at a low level with Windows. But Microsoft has invested billions of dollars and millions of man hours to make Windows the best programming platform there is. They have the most advanced development tools on the planet (by a very long shot), and the best programming libraries (namely, .NET, but many other API's and libraries for just about anything you could think of). A simple example of the kinds of things Microsoft pays attention to is Internet Explorer. Most people complain about its "shotty" standards support, which in all honesty is pretty damn good (IE properly implements EVERYTHING it says it supports, vs. say FireFox, which CLAIMS to support everything, but has shoddy implementation of many standards), and not only that, Internet Explorer has had extremely useful and powerful features since version 4 that no other browser has ever had, and probably never will have (for example, graphical filters that let you do things like realtime alpha blending, shadows, glow effects, and much more). Microsoft has also helped design and develop most international web standards (often implementing something in IE first and testing its viability, and later submitting it for standards review), as well as many other international standards. DirectX is one of the best 3D programming environments I've ever used, and I've used OpenGL and back in the day, I used the VooDoo 3D devlopment library called Glade. Microsoft is no longer the same company they were, nor do they offer the same poor-quality products they did, back in the days of Windows 98. Computing is much less about looks and empty benchmark claims these days, and more about whats possible. Microsoft Windows has 95% of the market because it supports everything, offers everything, and is relatively easy to program for. While Macs may be extremely easy to use on the surface, and they look much prettier than PC's most of the time, MacOS lacks the extensive programming capabilities and ease of programming that Windows does.

Microsoft also has a massive community of programmers that offers feedback, shares tips and tricks, etc. that helps Microsoft improve their tools. This is also something Apple lacks. All of these things generally affect how many people will program for your operating system. When I was learning Objective-C, it was difficult. There are few community sites where you can go to get help if you don't understand something, few sites where you can go to see examples and learn from other MacOS programmers. Converting code between C# (which is what SimPE and DatGen were both written in), and Objective-C would take some effort, as .NET is a managed environment, where as Objective-C is a native environment. The way you write code for a managed environment is often quite a bit different than how you would write code for a native environment. Finally, to put things in perspective, The Sims 2 itself is about 500,000 lines of code. An Objective-C program to do everything SimPE does would have to be at least 400,000, maybe 450,000 lines of code. Thats a LOT of code to write, which has to be done in addition to learning how all the game files work, learning how SimPE did things, then learning how to do those things in the Objective-C way. There is also the possability that data is stored in a different byte-order on Macs, which may require additional translation of existing file specs before they could be used on a mac.

I looked into writing a modding tool for SimCity 4 about 3 years ago, and thats how I learned all this. Programming for Macs isn't a fun process, as there are many limitations, complexities, and annoyances that don't exist when programming for Windows. Mac OS has long been a nitch market, which also makes putting a lot of effort into official tools for companies like Maxis a hard decision (why spend money for programmers to write tools that will hardly be used?) Back when I was working with SC4, I made an effort to build a team to write a Mac OS modding tool, and there was only one beginner programmer besides myself who could write Objective-C.

So, moral of the story. Macs are pretty, shiny, and expensive. Windows PC's arn;t always pretty and shiny, and are always less expensive than a Mac. If you want the best gaming experience, the best recommendation is to get a PC. They support everything, and unlike Windows 98 (which is now almost 9 years old, and very very out of date, and not even supported by Microsoft anymore), Windows XP is a very stable, solid OS that can do everything a Mac does and more. I'm a tool developer myself (I've worked on DatGen for 3 years, firs in the SC4 community, and the last year in the TS2 community). I speak from experience when I tell you its an excessively stressful job trying to keep up with all the demands of the community and develop good tools that are safe, stable, and easy to use.

I hope that gives you enough perspective on what it takes to write modding tools overall, and particularly for Mac OS. If you really want to try, I offer you the best of luck, and the freedom to ask me for help if you need to. Just be prepared for a long, difficult, and fairly stressful journey...a journey that most people, including those at Maxis, are generally unwilling to take.
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Original Poster
#5 Old 1st Nov 2005 at 2:32 AM
Well, don't worry; you're not the only Mac user who would like to mod their Sims stuff.

However, DarkMatter points out very well-founded facts, and honestly, the one time my iBook booted up in the Unix shell, a little piece of me died. Macs aren't meant for a lot of programming and things like that to begin with; personally, I believe they're more graphical workhorses than anything.

But I don't mean to anger anyone if I have. I prefer Macs simply because I've been using them longer (I'm on a PC, with windows XP now, but last I used Windows, it was still '97 or '98 or something like that).

Anyway, there's no immediate gratification for Mac users if u want to mod your Sims stuff, since you could go one of a few routes...

1. get Virtual PC and use SimPE through that
2. get a PC
3. borrow a PC, or get a friend with a PC, to do the modding

There just aren't some answers in life. It sucks. T-T
Field Researcher
#6 Old 11th Nov 2005 at 5:26 PM Last edited by lucentgem : 11th Nov 2005 at 6:00 PM.
I'm not a developer, but I do work for the big fruit and have a suggestion or two regarding this situation strictly coming from me mind you. Just for those of you who are curious...for the last two, maybe three years, Apple has been supplying developer tools WITH the operating system. Very likely for the very reason Dark Matter is complaining about...

Also, the last two operating systems have been MUCH better than the previous versions of OS X which were lacking to say the very least. Especially with the implementation of Tiger, things have become a little more developer friendly because the Mac user base though still very small overall, is growing quite nicely.

If someone is interested in looking at developing, even more so with the intel processor switch over in the near future, it might be something worth considering. http://developer.apple.com/

I'm not going to disagree that developing on the pc is easier than doing so on the mac because I have looked into it enough to know, but then again everyone and their dog develops on the pc and it's also one of the reasons pc's are virus and hacker ladden as well. It would definitely be nice to see more mac developers as I'm a gamer and would prefer to use my mac. Perhaps checking out versiontracker.com and talking to some of the developers there might illicit some help though very likely for a cost depending on who it is.

It would be nice to see tools for the mac but as I am a cross platform user I can use my pc if necessary...I'll just bitch about it a lot. If I were a developer/coder, I would gladly offer my assistance but as I'm not, I will offer my support instead.

~JJ~
Looking for a forum to host your creations? Let's talk. PM me or email me from my site below.

Check out Lucentsims :*) And our forums.
Zombie Coder
#7 Old 11th Nov 2005 at 9:45 PM
The problem with developing on the Apple is two things. Quality of the development tools (they are ok, but not great, and a far cry from Visual Studio.NET), and the size of their developer community. Apple is a very closed company, which I think has hurt their market share a lot. While I can understand their desire to keep actual systems in-house, I beleive that if Apple opened up their developer community and really improved their tools and languages (even going as far as supporting the .NET Framework for MacOS X), it could greatly improve their market share in a few years time. The future of development really lies in the managed environments (like .NET and Java), rather than in native code. If Apple doesn't wait too much longer to get on that bandwagon, I think it could mean a bit more success for them. We'll have to see, I guess.
Field Researcher
#8 Old 17th Nov 2005 at 1:45 AM
Good stuff Tickle, I will definitely have to look at that. :*)

~JJ~
Looking for a forum to host your creations? Let's talk. PM me or email me from my site below.

Check out Lucentsims :*) And our forums.
Test Subject
#9 Old 7th Jan 2006 at 5:10 AM
hey your pretty funny but can I get areal response
Lab Assistant
#10 Old 20th Jun 2006 at 11:21 AM
I can download Home Crafter but it will not go into any file and so I can only re-colour clothing with bodyshop and photoshop.
All of my friends have Windows so they all can make new stuff but since applications can not be changed i can't use home crafter and on almost every sims 2 site I go on all of the Mac users say the same thing and can not use it

Cats will rule the world some day!!'
Destroy Luke Skywalker!
Test Subject
#11 Old 7th Jul 2006 at 2:29 AM
I run on a mac as well, and am having the same problem. it sucks! I can make the meshes, but i need someone to do SimPE for me. my boyfriend lets me use his computer (windows xp- i hate it with a passion) when i need to do something windows-oriented, like use a certain program, but i dont have the patience to begin modding my mac game on a windows. that just seems...wrong. i did find a nice program that has a free demo. it is BEAUTIFUL...i looked all over for something like it. it can be exported to milkshape and many other similar programs, and is very simple to use...

http://mac.softpedia.com/progDownlo...nload-7956.html


i hope this helps a little bit. i run on 10.4.6, so i dont know if this program will work with your computer if its a tad bit older...
Test Subject
#12 Old 23rd Jan 2007 at 1:58 AM
I have the same problem. I have had Apples/Macs/Unix since the beginning (before windows was even here), but I have only limited experience with coding and have written only small programs in high-level languages (most for configuring light temperature for reef aquariums and other similar mathematical things for my convenience). I love my Mac (PPC) and I love Unix. I have disliked Windows since XP, before that it was tolerable, but not stellar. Mostly I dislike the bulkiness of it. It is easier to code, but harder to debug, in my opinion, and I do not care for the whole direct link library thing because they are hard to remove w/o experience. Plus PCs seem 'dirty' and clog up after a year or so. And they always need to be reformatted. Recently, Mac has allowed easy access to Unix via Darwin and you can always write scripts and programs, just compiling is a pain in the rear. And debugging.

I have PCs, but I still use my Macs more, and I do not want to mesh on a PC just because that's where all the tools are. Honestly, I have not meshed since Sims 1 and that was different. I can only recolor in photoshop for Sims 2, and that will have to suffice. Frustrating, I know, but Apple's closed-system has preserved it from lesser experienced programmers only in it to write trojans and the like. (there are some vintage viruses, like "worms love apples"! how funny!) Unfortunately, it keeps the benevolent beginners out too.

When somebody writes a good program for Sims modding on mac, I will buy it or donate or whatever, but I just don't have the time myself, as previous posters have written. But I can comiserate! There is a demand! We may be the minority, but we are still here!
Forum Resident
#13 Old 23rd Jan 2007 at 7:49 AM
This kind of lament goes on since the advent of Sims 2.

It may be bitter to realize, but if you use an "uncommon" operating system you just have to live with the fact that some software just isn't available or code it yourself.

This is in no way a judgement of the usability or the quality of any OS, but simple pointing out the facts. I have no idea about the sales numbers of Sims 2 for Mac, but it obviously are a lot fewer than those for Win and it seems that no Mac-coder has bought it or an interest to code something SimPE-like for it. The possibility was discussed in detail in the SimPE-forum, you could even re-use parts of the sourcecode, but it seems no one is willing (or able) to do it.

happy simming,
Xanathon


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