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MTS Speed-Building Challenge - posted on 17th Oct 2018 at 7:25 PM
Replies: 17 (Who?), Viewed: 11064 times.
dodgy builder
Original Poster
#1 Old 4th Oct 2016 at 3:39 PM
Default Hijab political or religious?
We have this courtcase in my country these days. We're debating wherther it's rasisme or not.

A girl with hijab comes into the hairdresser, she knows she will be told off because of the hijab, because it's well known in town. She used to be a regular (christian) girl before, norwegian society is quite secular. She's most likely going for a confrontasion with the hairdresser already knowing what the outcome will be, because as it has been stated, she can't take the hijab off while there is men present, and this is a general salon.

The hairdresser considers it a political statement to wear a hijab. Girls wearing hijab represent a political statement by islam she claims.

What do you think? Is hijab politics or religion?
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Theorist
#2 Old 4th Oct 2016 at 4:07 PM
I never post in this section but this really peaked my interest with all that's going on surrounding Islam and enforcement of anti-Islam legislation being adapted quickly throughout parts of Europe, and I'm sure it'll show up over here sooner than later.

However, I think the hijab is solely religious outside of the Islamic countries... within those countries, it's my understanding from what few articles I've read/stories from personal friends that the requirement of the hijab is political, and as a result it's become a part of the religion (hence why I said it's religious outside of those countries). If I'm not mistaken, there's constantly women standing up a protesting against the hijab in these countries, and for a good decade or so in either the 70's or the 80's the hijab was removed, but then reinstated after a revolution of some sort. I could be way off, but going by memory from a documentary/video I had watched on the evolution of the hijab/burka/Muslim clothing in general. I'll see if I can find it and link it below.
Theorist
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4th Oct 2016 at 4:35 PM
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Instructor
#3 Old 4th Oct 2016 at 5:04 PM
I'm not entirely sure what the question is...

The hijab is a garment worn, in Islam, for modesty's sake, since that religion calls for modesty. Depending on how strongly the call for modesty is taken, a woman may or may not wear one, since "modesty" is a rather vague term.

By this logic, it would stand that the hijab is not a political statement, unless it is specifically used as such (for example, a woman who typically does not wear a hijab choosing to wear one in order to incite political controversy).
Mad Poster
#4 Old 4th Oct 2016 at 6:05 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 5th Oct 2016 at 12:05 AM.
Whether a hijab is political or religious has absolutely nothing to do with whether a hairdresser should cut someone's hair. The person underneath the hijab is a human being, and what she wears on her head isn't the business of the hairdresser, as long as the woman takes it off when she gets into the chair (because cutting someone's hair while they have on any kind of headpiece is really difficult).

I'm also not sure if what the hairdresser did counts as racism or bullying, but it's either one or both. Also, using her own religion as an excuse for harrassing other people is not okay. Whether or not the hairdresser was or is Christian has nothing to say, and is not an excuse for getting away with doing stupid things. She did something bad and was mean to another human being, and now has to face the consequences. She needs to understand that not everyone sees the world in her own narrow-minded way, and maybe she'll learn something from the experience. One can only hope...

As for the woman with the hijab, she'd be much better off finding a more accepting hairdresser the next time she needs a haircut, and perhaps a salon where there are some secluded spots, if she feels bothered about men seeing her without her hijab. Either that, or accepting that she's not in an all-woman hair salon, in a non-islamic country where other people don't understand her religious rules. Sometimes you can't get everything you want, and have to accept a compromize.

(Personally, I think religious headwear is a ridicolous concept (and some of the headgear even looks ridicolous, like the pope's hat, but that's beside the point). As long as it's just a piece of fashion for a part of the world, it's fine, but used in a way that either lifts someone above someone else, or as a way to oppress a group of people, it's just wrong. Hijabs can look really nice - but not if the woman underneath is less worth in the eyes of others, and can't even get a haircut without getting into trouble).
Theorist
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4th Oct 2016 at 10:12 PM
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Mad Poster
#5 Old 4th Oct 2016 at 11:23 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 5th Oct 2016 at 12:18 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarVee
Their business and thus they can refuse service who they want.


If she'd had black skin, and was refused because of that, it would be racism. If the person had been openly gay and denied entry, it would have been harrassment. It's just a matter of which words or context you use, but refusing someone entry because how they look or what they choose to wear, how they feel, or what their customs are, isn't right. Sure, if she'd paraded in naked, or been drunk, or caused a giant uproar, or tried to rob the hairdresser - that's a completely different thing. But denying her entry because she has a piece of cloth tied around her head? Does that really sound right to you?

I saw the footage, and the woman behaved like a lot of people do when they're seeing the wrapping and not the person underneath. Maybe racism isn't the right word, but it's darn close, considering what the hairdresser was saying is that "you wear a garment I dislike, and you have different customs than me, so I'm of the opinion I have the right to say bad things to you and deny you entrance". Sounds an awful lot like racism, or oppression, or harrassing, or bullying, (or whatever you see fit as the proper word with the proper coverage in English) to me.

In my opinion all religions have screwed-up customs and ideologies, so whether it's a matter of race or religion or confused ideologies doesn't matter to me. Refusing a decent person entry just because of a garment they're wearing is still wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarVee
The Hijab does neither of those things. Concept of Hijab is not feeling "above you" nor it is to oppress women. The concept of Hijab is about protecting woman's beauty from those that wish take advantage of it.


A twist of words, that's all. "You're pretty, so you have to hide away, whether or not you actually want to do it or not, or men will take advantage of you" - pretty much the same as the "women can't wear revealing garments showing too much skin, because men are beasts and will take advantage of them, rape them, and yaddayaddayadda" debate in western countries. Men have brains, and should be capable of controlling their urges, no matter their religion or nationality. People who can't control themselves belong behind bars, or somewhere else where they can't hurt innocent people. A woman's body is her own property, just like a man's body is his own property - and their own body is theirs to share or keep to themselves, not for anyone else to take advantage of without full conscent - and it's too bad that view isn't accepted all around the world.

Women (and men) should be allowed to wear what they want (as long as it's decent enough for the situation) without men (or women) gawking at them, or feeling the need to take advantage of them. The amount of coverage needed for decency depends on the situation, of course. A bikini or shorts is decent enough on the beach - but maybe not at work...

I know/have known/have met people who use hijabs, and underneath it, there's usually a decent person once you get to know them. If there's not, it's usually the person and/or their ideologies there's something wrong with - not the garment itself.

My point is, whatever the woman chose to wear on her head that day isn't the business of the hairdresser. The religion of the woman doesn't concern the hairdresser. The problems could have been solved so easily. Find a more secluded spot in the salon, and give the woman a haircut. Get paid, and let the woman leave without harrassing her. That's what any decent human being would have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarVee
The problem with "getting into trouble" over haircut and other such thing not fundamental problem with Islam religion, it problem with how much of many societies view Islam. Much of world has negative perception of Islam and do not correctly understand its values and teachings, this is what often cause "trouble". Not wear of Hijab/Burkini/whatever itself.


Religion, and the clash of religions has always been a problem. It's nothing new. Besides, most of the bible-thumpin' people don't even understand their own religion, so it's no wonder they misimpret other religions.

Personally, I try to view people as 'this is a decent human being until otherwise proven', regardless of their beliefs, customs, ideologies, and whatnots. I just wish everyone had the same viewpoint. It probably would have made the world a lot easier to live in.

Most of the negative perception surrounding Islam comes from small groups of people who are bent on warfare and terrorism. Some come from stories about oppression of women and the patriarchal hiearchy in some Islamic communities. One feather tends to turn into five hens, and suddenly all Islamic people are worse than bad, even if they really aren't. Most people who follow Islam are probably decent people who are trying to live normal lives, but they get a bad reputation because of the few ones who are as far from decent as it's possible to come.
Mad Poster
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5th Oct 2016 at 12:02 AM
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Theorist
#6 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 1:55 AM
Funny how they make a fuss out of wearing a hijab. A lot of conservative christian women here still wear something similar (elderly + any woman in our bible belt) and their behaviour is suddenly pretty normal? Sorry, but I don't see any difference between a muslima and a native christian woman wearing these things. Is it because most of these hajibs lack any print?

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Instructor
#7 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 9:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor86
Funny how they make a fuss out of wearing a hijab. A lot of conservative christian women here still wear something similar (elderly + any woman in our bible belt) and their behaviour is suddenly pretty normal? Sorry, but I don't see any difference between a muslima and a native christian woman wearing these things. Is it because most of these hajibs lack any print?


I really agree with you on this one - the Queen (of the UK, Australia, Canada, etc.) wears headscarves a lot, but none of the people complaining about headscarves complain about her!

Actually on topic: religious headwear, as simmer22 pointed out, is usually silly. The whole concept of "women should dress modestly to prevent men from misbehaving" is unpleasant an demeaning to both genders, whether it comes from Islam or elsewhere. But everyone does silly things at times, and it's just an item of clothing that - given she is in a western country that doesn't force it on people - this woman has chosen to wear, and she feels uncomfortable removing in front of men. Surely the hairdresser could have either (a) found somewhere more private to cut her hair, or (b) apologised for not having anywhere private and recommended somewhere else?
Theorist
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5th Oct 2016 at 9:07 AM
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Lab Assistant
#8 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 1:46 PM
I'm willing to share my perspective as a 3rd worlder who lives in a country with a very great Christian majority and very tiny Muslim representation, so tiny, in fact, sometimes we forget that there *are* Muslims here and it's surprising to see a Muslim woman in a burka, hijab, etc. I've seen Muslim school girls wearing pants but no headscarves so I assume the Muslims here are not as strict or devout as those from Muslim majority countries, however, I have also heard a horror story of two teenage girls killed by their family because they dressed provocatively and refused to cover-up but this may have been just a rumor as I am unable to find any official report on it. Also, considering that I've been here my entire life and that is the *only* verbal account I've encountered I think it's safe to say the Muslim community here is very content.

I do recall one instance where I worked at a service desk and a Muslim woman wanted to access information. Because of the strict level of verification required by customers before providing sensitive information, I had to ask her to remove her head covering (her entire face was covered except her eyes) to verify her face matched the image on the card. Now, at the time, I knew absolutely *nothing* about Islam and I didn't know women weren't allowed to remove their head coverings if men were around (and there were male staff and customers present). I was under the impression that if a member of authority asked, it was okay to remove it. Now, I'm not saying that I had authority over her but, it was my job on the line and I could not release information unless I confirmed the face matched the one on the card and I could tell from her hesitation that she did *not* want to take it off, and, I'll be completely honest here, I thought she was being a tad belligerent because of her refusal to comply. I didn't think that *because* she was a Muslim. I thought that because she *refused* to comply.

See how easy it is to assume something about someone without knowing their background and applying your own perspectives and biases? And this is just one example of the type of conflict that can present itself. Do I risk my job or do I offend this person's beliefs or put them in an embarrassing position which is akin to exposing themselves in public?

I think a situation like this could be resolved if we were allowed to take the customer into a private / bath room and confirm their identities there.

Be that as it may, I was very respectful and I went to my supervisor who came and allowed the woman access. Now, I remind you, this is a very Christian community and I know for a fact that my supervisor was a Christian woman (and I was at the time). And we handled it professionally. There was no prejudice, no hatred, just following SOPs and 'covering our asses'.

Now, in the case of the hairdresser: This is not the popular opinion but it *is* her business and she *does* have the right to refuse service for any reason. If she were an employee and she refused the service for those reasons then sure, she could be up for a firing since she is not representing her employer's business. But if she's the owner then *she* sets the rules and is allowed to break them if she wants to. It's not a sane business practice, no, but it's *her* business! She can do whatever she wants with it, even if it includes running it into the ground.

I'm black, and if I went into a store owned by a racist and he refused to offer me service because of my skin colour then I would just leave and go somewhere my patronage would be appreciated. I'm not going to bully or force anyone to give me service they don't want to because I've had people sabotage a product before because they didn't like me. I'd rather give my money to someone who *wants* to provide a service to me, not gives it begrudgingly or spitefully. It's also why I am very polite to fast food workers because I don't want anyone spitting on my food and I *always* tip my waitress because I used to work in Food Service, so I know, first hand, what it's like.

In the case of the Muslim woman, you said she *knew* she was going to be told off. In that case, I am wondering why she didn't call around first and find a more inclusive hair-dresser (unless that was the only one, in which case that sucks). Again, black person here, and I moved to a predominantly white area a couple years back to study and I had to call around hair dressing salons first to find one that had experience with black hair. I even asked other black women which salon they went to or recommended. I know some people will think I'm victim-blaming, which I'm not. I'm just saying that if you have specific needs then it's wise to invest the time and effort to find the right business that can accommodate those needs. It would be convenient for me to call first and ask for a private service, away from the public space or, if she enjoys talking with women while she gets tended to, then ask for a time when only women are scheduled. There are also hair dressers that come to your house and tend to you there. I actually prefer this method because there are no other customers, no distractions for the hairdresser and I'm in the comfort of my own home.

To the main question. Is the hijab a religious or political statement? To me, it's religious. Members of that religion wear it for religious reasons and their beliefs dictate when they can and cannot remove it. Comparatively, wearing a BLM or Feminism Now T-shit is a political statement as those movements are not religions. On the other hand, with all this focus on identity politics these days I can definitely see how some would think the hijab is a political statement.
dodgy builder
Original Poster
#9 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 1:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
If she'd had black skin, and was refused because of that, it would be racism. If the person had been openly gay and denied entry, it would have been harrassment. It's just a matter of which words or context you use, but refusing someone entry because how they look or what they choose to wear, how they feel, or what their customs are, isn't right. Sure, if she'd paraded in naked, or been drunk, or caused a giant uproar, or tried to rob the hairdresser - that's a completely different thing. But denying her entry because she has a piece of cloth tied around her head? Does that really sound right to you?


The hairdresser isn't perticularly bright. She could have gotten away with this if she was more on the politics, because that's what this is about in my eyes. In my country if it's considered racisme, the word isn't generally considered as having anything to do with rase, because that's a difficult word to use in our language. Hitler and all that. So the law use the term racisme, and what rase is hasn't been discussed because the scientists don't agree if it's a legit term at all. The law though points out how the term racisme is suppose to be understood.

Quote:
I saw the footage, and the woman behaved like a lot of people do when they're seeing the wrapping and not the person underneath. Maybe racism isn't the right word, but it's darn close, considering what the hairdresser was saying is that "you wear a garment I dislike, and you have different customs than me, so I'm of the opinion I have the right to say bad things to you and deny you entrance". Sounds an awful lot like racism, or oppression, or harrassing, or bullying, (or whatever you see fit as the proper word with the proper coverage in English) to me.


In my eyes the garment is being used by Islam leaders to force Islam into Europe and create friction with it. That is politics. I don't really support the hairdressers actions in this case, she could have done it differently. It's her salon. She could just have said "I don't have time" or something, without stepping on someone's shoes. She could also be more persistant on the politics side of it. It's a bit silly really if it's true what they say she couldn't cut her hair their at all, then it's provocation. Too bad the hairdresser didn't know that.


Quote:
In my opinion all religions have screwed-up customs and ideologies, so whether it's a matter of race or religion or confused ideologies doesn't matter to me. Refusing a decent person entry just because of a garment they're wearing is still wrong.


It's been pointed out by several. Norway is a secular country. It's no problem for me being an athiest living here. We have all kind of religions here and they get support from the parlament for their community work. It's a bit odd though that everyone else seem to do it without ever creating a stir, while the muslims is nothing but.

Another thing is these woman wearing the full burka. They exclude themselves from society at large, and talking to them would be a joke. I mean keeping a conversation with someone when you can only see their eyes, or not even that? It's hopeless and a bit rediculous. In my country we like immigrants to assimilate into our society, if you can't communicate you can't assimilate.

The comparison with older women wearing headband isn't working. They don't wear it to send a message to the world "I'm muslim!".

Quote:
Personally, I try to view people as 'this is a decent human being until otherwise proven', regardless of their beliefs, customs, ideologies, and whatnots. I just wish everyone had the same viewpoint. It probably would have made the world a lot easier to live in.


Me too, but not all people is nice. This woman may look presentable and speak nice Stavanger dialect on the tele, but she went in there with a mission.

Quote:
Most of the negative perception surrounding Islam comes from small groups of people who are bent on warfare and terrorism. Some come from stories about oppression of women and the patriarchal hiearchy in some Islamic communities. One feather tends to turn into five hens, and suddenly all Islamic people are worse than bad, even if they really aren't. Most people who follow Islam are probably decent people who are trying to live normal lives, but they get a bad reputation because of the few ones who are as far from decent as it's possible to come.


As I said she went in there with a mission to take this hairdresser. The opinion in Norway was very much on the muslim womans side, but then people started realizing she knew what she was up against, and she couldn't even cut her hair there at all.

... I guess being a convert isn't all that easy, but she made the choice. Now she might end up with a compensation from the hairdresser, and the hairdresser might end up paying the hole courtcase. Not bad salary for a few years fronting a case.

I just want this view of the hijab being a religious symbol go away. It might be religious, but it's not the way it's being use. They use it stir up public opinion and keep Islam on the news.
dodgy builder
Original Poster
#10 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 2:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimfulBear
I'm willing to share my perspective as a 3rd worlder who lives in a country with a very great Christian majority and very tiny Muslim representation, so tiny, in fact, sometimes we forget that there *are* Muslims here and it's surprising to see a Muslim woman in a burka, hijab, etc. I've seen Muslim school girls wearing pants but no headscarves so I assume the Muslims here are not as strict or devout as those from Muslim majority countries, however, I have also heard a horror story of two teenage girls killed by their family because they dressed provocatively and refused to cover-up but this may have been just a rumor as I am unable to find any official report on it. Also, considering that I've been here my entire life and that is the *only* verbal account I've encountered I think it's safe to say the Muslim community here is very content.


I wouldn't mind a woman in burka or hijab if they just behaved nicely. No problem at all. I wouldn't keep a conversation with a woman in burka though, because I like to see the face of people I talk to.

Quote:
I do recall one instance where I worked at a service desk and a Muslim woman wanted to access information. Because of the strict level of verification required by customers before providing sensitive information, I had to ask her to remove her head covering (her entire face was covered except her eyes) to verify her face matched the image on the card. Now, at the time, I knew absolutely *nothing* about Islam and I didn't know women weren't allowed to remove their head coverings if men were around (and there were male staff and customers present). I was under the impression that if a member of authority asked, it was okay to remove it. Now, I'm not saying that I had authority over her but, it was my job on the line and I could not release information unless I confirmed the face matched the one on the card and I could tell from her hesitation that she did *not* want to take it off, and, I'll be completely honest here, I thought she was being a tad belligerent because of her refusal to comply. I didn't think that *because* she was a Muslim. I thought that because she *refused* to comply.


I sell alcohol to people, and according to law I cannot sell alcohol to people under 18. It's my responsibily to apply by the rules, or I will be fired. I'm pretty sure it would not be approved here, I could call my boss and check the identity on a backroom, but I would assume a woman with a burka wouldn't drink alcohol at all. I have worked in this shop for 15 years, and has never encountered anything like this. It's probably not comparable though, in a public office, we might handle it like you did.

Quote:
See how easy it is to assume something about someone without knowing their background and applying your own perspectives and biases? And this is just one example of the type of conflict that can present itself. Do I risk my job or do I offend this person's beliefs or put them in an embarrassing position which is akin to exposing themselves in public?


Norway is a very secular society, many people would just look at this with ridicule and disbelief. They hide it as well as they can and try to comply though.

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Now, in the case of the hairdresser: This is not the popular opinion but it *is* her business and she *does* have the right to refuse service for any reason. If she were an employee and she refused the service for those reasons then sure, she could be up for a firing since she is not representing her employer's business. But if she's the owner then *she* sets the rules and is allowed to break them if she wants to. It's not a sane business practice, no, but it's *her* business! She can do whatever she wants with it, even if it includes running it into the ground.


She can run it into the ground, but she can not refuse service on racial grounds.

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I'm black, and if I went into a store owned by a racist and he refused to offer me service because of my skin colour then I would just leave and go somewhere my patronage would be appreciated. I'm not going to bully or force anyone to give me service they don't want to because I've had people sabotage a product before because they didn't like me. I'd rather give my money to someone who *wants* to provide a service to me, not gives it begrudgingly or spitefully.


haha, oh qeeesss what can I say. A black man comes into a hairdresser wanting a cut, and it's refused. The hairdresser better have a good excuse. The hijab debate can't be compared. It's very different. A black guy ... ? expect the same service. A woman with hijab, she goes in there, but can't cut it there. In my eyes, I wouldn't in a million years support the hairdresser if she refused the black guy, The woman with a hijab on the other hand, what is she doing there? She's just creating a stirr.

It's very interesting though, would she refuse the black guy? He might be ok in her eyes ... so is it racisme still?

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In the case of the Muslim woman, you said she *knew* she was going to be told off. In that case, I am wondering why she didn't call around first and find a more inclusive hair-dresser (unless that was the only one, in which case that sucks). Again, black person here, and I moved to a predominantly white area a couple years back to study and I had to call around hair dressing salons first to find one that had experience with black hair. I even asked other black women which salon they went to or recommended. I know some people will think I'm victim-blaming, which I'm not. I'm just saying that if you have specific needs then it's wise to invest the time and effort to find the right business that can accommodate those needs.


I'm a bit shocked actually. If I was black I would find the most suitable service for my hair and expect to be served.

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It would be convenient for me to call first and ask for a private service, away from the public space or, if she enjoys talking with women while she gets tended to, then ask for a time when only women are scheduled. There are also hair dressers that come to your house and tend to you there. I actually prefer this method because there are no other customers, no distractions for the hairdresser and I'm in the comfort of my own home.


Private service? What's that? I don't think we have that in our vucabulary

Quote:
To the main question. Is the hijab a religious or political statement? To me, it's religious. Members of that religion wear it for religious reasons and their beliefs dictate when they can and cannot remove it. Comparatively, wearing a BLM or Feminism Now T-shit is a political statement as those movements are not religions. On the other hand, with all this focus on identity politics these days I can definitely see how some would think the hijab is a political statement.


It may start as religious, but there's a fine line between religion and politics. Religion has been running states as long as man has excisted. They shouldn't be mixed. In our country the King kicked out the Vatican from politics in 1536 and made his own religion. Handy way to keep your subjects in control.
dodgy builder
Original Poster
#11 Old 5th Oct 2016 at 2:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarVee
Is it right? Not really. But you fail understand that it their business. They own business. They pay tax for business. They invest hours and money into business. The shop owner and employees that abide by their employers choice of business have the right. Not the customer.

You can't go into shop and demand to be serviced because "I'm special" and then cry wolf after when shopkeep refuses to cater to your "special-ness". You want to be serviced? Then you respect shopkeepers way of business or find another business that will service you if you refuse to abide. Plenty of business opportunity out there.


That's how it is in Egypt? I'm glad I'm not running a business in my country. I would end up in trouble everyday because of people who don't like my face, but still want's to be catered to.
Theorist
#12 Old 6th Oct 2016 at 2:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyCarey
I really agree with you on this one - the Queen (of the UK, Australia, Canada, etc.) wears headscarves a lot, but none of the people complaining about headscarves complain about her!

Actually on topic: religious headwear, as simmer22 pointed out, is usually silly. The whole concept of "women should dress modestly to prevent men from misbehaving" is unpleasant an demeaning to both genders, whether it comes from Islam or elsewhere. But everyone does silly things at times, and it's just an item of clothing that - given she is in a western country that doesn't force it on people - this woman has chosen to wear, and she feels uncomfortable removing in front of men. Surely the hairdresser could have either (a) found somewhere more private to cut her hair, or (b) apologised for not having anywhere private and recommended somewhere else?


Yeah. our former queen wears them from time to time, too. Btw, until this thread I only knew the Dutch translation of a headscarve for both the islamic and christian headwear and when mentioned, you know that in 99% of the cases it's about the muslim version. Because I don't care about this subject. I can see their face when I talk to one, that's the only ''but'' I have for these things. I have a lack of understanding of religious people in general and why they base their views on politics and society on their religion, including the reasoning behind these headscarves. And I never believe it's free will, when a child wears such thing on her head.

And I fully agree. Even when women walk around naked all day, being very aroused, and in public, it does not give any right to guys to misbehave. It pisses me off really hard when I read about a woman getting raped in a (mostly islamic) country, she gets punished. Not just by a forced marriage with the perp and bare his children, but also a bigger punishment from some kind of court than the males , if they even get punished. Serious, what the hell. If you see a hot girl, but she doesn't want you, you just need to rape her to get married to her? What a very strange system.

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Mad Poster
#13 Old 14th Oct 2016 at 8:35 PM
Not sure if any of you paid much attention to the whole "debate" thing this situation ended up with, but the hairdresser sort of changed her opinion (sort of, because that woman had some strange ways to show respect). Anyhow, the end of the story was that the hairdresser ended up saying something along the lines of "ah well, the hijab makes you look cute, and you are kinda nice as a person. If you want, you can have your hair cut in my shop." Which goes to show that forming an opinion about someone based on what they're wearing, and denying them entrance because of that perhaps was a bad idea after all. I can't say I was any impressed by the hairdresser's answer, though (in my opinion a very badly formed not-really-an-apology, along the lines of 'alright, so perhaps I was just a tiny bit wrong about you in particular' that doesn't really solve a whole lot), but kinda did move things along in the right direction in that particular situation. And to be completely honest, I mostly just read the headlines, so if something was said in the debate that I didn't catch up on, I was probably too busy with more important things (like treating elderly people with various health issues with respect and kindness - which is part of my work, regardless of what I might personally think about their religion or customs or habits - of which there are a lot, and of which I personally try to 'map out' so that I understand the person better).

I may not know a whole lot about the whole hijab/niquab/burka debate, or Islam/muslim culture, other than what I've heard, seen on TV or read - but I don't need to have intimate knowledge about religions or cultures to know how to be decent to a person. Unless you know an awful lot of things about the world's religions and cultures (of which there are so many hundreds and thousands) you're bound to step wrong somewhere along the line, but you can only do your best, and you can get far with an apology if said toes are stepped on without meaning to. To be blunt, if there was a lot less cultural and religious mumbo jumbo in the world, it would be a whole lot easier not to step on people's feet while trying to treat them with respect, though. Sometimes you just don't know if you're trying to be respectful to the person and their basic human rights, or to their culture/religion, because those two have a very bad habit of clashing. One might argue that their religion or culture is a part of who they are, and sure, of course it is - but that doesn't mean the customs of the religion or culture is the right way to go about life. It also doesn't mean that you are obliged to give the person your heartfelt opinion of their stupid, horrifying or annoying customs just because you can and want to - because that's disrespectful to the person. Showing curiosity for their culture and customs in a positive way may be a better approach - or (if you're in your negative corner that day) just bite it and try not to ruin their day by going out of your way to say or do something offensive.

Sometimes, the best thing you can do is to accept that different cultures have different customs, and choose your battles wisely. Maybe picking on a woman for wearing cultural/religious headwear when all they want is to get their hair freshed up is the wrong time and place. In an official debate of whether or not hijabs should be allowed while at school or at work - that's a completely different situation, where you can lay out your opinions for and against, and everyone present has a say. Same with internet discussions and things like that. But if you go rip the hijab off the person's head, or denying them entrance because they chose to wear a hijab that day, then you're disrespectful to the person wearing the hijab, and not doing anything promoting your case. Attacking the person only makes the person feel bad about themselves. Just keep in mind how you would like to be treated if you were on the other side of the table, and you're automatically less likely to do something stupid.

At the same time, if someone is from another part of the world, they need to be understanding of the fact that they now live in a world with other customs than what they've grown up in, so they can't expect everyone around them to understand or follow, or even respect those customs - at least not without explaining why that particular custom is important to them. Understanding and respect goes both ways.
Theorist
#14 Old 15th Oct 2016 at 1:08 AM
I just post this one to see the new post of Simmer22.

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Alchemist
#15 Old 16th Oct 2016 at 2:40 AM
Both, either, or none. It's at the discretion of the person using it. Much like all religious rituals, actually. Or ALL rituals, really...
Additionally, you can turn a religious statement into a political statement and visa versa. It's pretty case-by-case. (And no I'm not a religion apologist, I honestly don't like religion, but I'm of the live and let live variety at the ripe old age of **.)


Also, as a licensed cosmetologist, this:
"A girl with hijab comes into the hairdresser, she knows she will be told off because of the hijab, because it's well known in town."
MAKES ME SAD.
The hijab is not a problem, she is not a problem, unless she is being hurt, is hurting others, or wants out of it. Hardcore feminists rail against this, but insist that their main belief is in a womans right to choose. Ergo, it is also her right to choose what they don't encourage.
But if it were me personally, I'd take it as a personal religious statement than a political one. And even if she wants to make a political statement, in America, other people make A LIVING off of doing exactly that, in what one might argue as being MORE offensive ways. Other people promote equally (Assuming she's a radical) if not more so dangerous ideas.
Might I add, it's not the hairstylists' job to school her on anything political or religious or anything other than hair. If the hairstylist hates it so much, they can politely refer her to someone else. How people express themselves is not up for them to decide. They can advise, but it's rude to do so unless invited to. If it's a health concern, on the other hand, that's a different story. We're not allowed to do anyone's hair who has lice, scabies, etc, and are taught to refer them to a physician.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"Science literacy is a vaccine against the charlatans of the world that would exploit your ignorance."~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Space Pony
#16 Old 20th Nov 2016 at 1:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
As for the woman with the hijab, she'd be much better off finding a more accepting hairdresser the next time she needs a haircut, and perhaps a salon where there are some secluded spots, if she feels bothered about men seeing her without her hijab. Either that, or accepting that she's not in an all-woman hair salon, in a non-Islamic country where other people don't understand her religious rules. Sometimes you can't get everything you want, and have to accept a compromise.



This is where it gets political most often. Why should a hairdresser in lets say Norway, have secluded chairs for customers wearing a hijab? Even if that was not the question at hand, it would lead to that eventually, and only fuel what some people call racism and others call common sense. At some point there would have to be special saloons for Muslim women only, l and perhaps no "white or christian" customers would go there, they would not feel welcome. This in turns leads to the part where people get segregated from each other because the old "race,politics and religion" , and more racism,hatred and segregation becomes the consequence. People native to the region would feel this Muslim woman did this only to make a political statement and perhaps also earn some money because she was "discriminated against" (Here in Sweden this is quite common, we pay good money - the tax-payers money- to "discriminated against" foreigners, while others are starving,well,well...donĀ“t kill the messenger, I'm only referring to how people talk in the streets).

Plus,someone running a saloon has no obligation to please everyone entering their business with or without head-wear. As you said, itĀ“s hard to cut someones hair with a scarf covering it. But a hijab is a politically charged piece of fabric wheter one likes it or not. If it where my saloon I would ask her to not take up my time because I have other customers who wants to get their hair done. Sometimes a hairdresser rents a chair,and its very costly. Not to mention the rent for a good spot downtown.

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Test Subject
#17 Old 7th Feb 2018 at 4:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvenom
We have this courtcase in my country these days. We're debating wherther it's rasisme or not.

A girl with hijab comes into the hairdresser, she knows she will be told off because of the hijab, because it's well known in town. She used to be a regular (christian) girl before, norwegian society is quite secular. She's most likely going for a confrontasion with the hairdresser already knowing what the outcome will be, because as it has been stated, she can't take the hijab off while there is men present, and this is a general salon.

The hairdresser considers it a political statement to wear a hijab. Girls wearing hijab represent a political statement by islam she claims.

What do you think? Is hijab politics or religion?


Islam is both political and religious.
Cfr. theocracy.
Lab Assistant
#18 Old 26th Mar 2018 at 12:18 AM
It is definitely religious, or maybe even cultural. It all depends on what she decides and what she is comfortable with.

Why that hairdresser decides she wants to confront a potential paying customer is beyond me. You are working, so be professional and courteous to everyone. Whether you agree or not.
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