This is and has always been a touchy topic, the use of the 'N' word. Namely why its viewed as OK if used by some one who is black, but not for some one who is white.

For those keeping up with what has been going on with the "View", they have been discussing this.

Some parts are very interesting in this;

For starters, this all started with Jackson’s comments about Obama using the 'N' word.

Elizabeth Hasselback was having a difficult time understanding Whoopi Goldberg’s point of view that the word could be used inoffensively by black people but not by white people. Trying to make sense of it, asked how she was supposed to explain it to her young daughter Grace. Hasselback asked, “Am I supposed to tell Grace, okay, here are some words you can use, here are some words you cannot. But your friend over there can use it…?”

Whoopi Goldberg explained, “Elizabeth, this is a word that has meaning when you give it meaning.”

When Hasselback broke down into tears, Barbara Walters did her best to mediate.

Sherri Shepard, who is black, said that she could use the word as a term of endearment, but said to Barbara Walters: "I don't want to hear it come out of your mouth."

Now to me, this is all double standards. If we are going to say that this is a terrible word that one should not say, then no one should say it. But this is not the case here.

For those who want to see the episode;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3HWXej9N8Vg

Of course it's a double standard, but as of yet it's not illegal to say the 'N' word, just socially improper. And if it's a word that only has meaning when you give it meaning, then white as same as black should be able to use it in the "endearing" way. But the fact is we still put too much emphasis on the differences between black and white, instead of focusing on the fact that we're all human beings who can feel and think and need to feel like a part of something. If it hurts someone to hear it said by a white person, it's clear even they think there is a difference between us. I guess the only thing to do is to choose a different word to use. Like "brotha", or something of similar meaning.

I would add to the last post but I think Elyasis said it all.

I think people are being deliberately obtuse here. You understand perfectly well that an insult, coming from a very close friend, can be a term of endearment. Like me calling my wife a sl*t when she does something sexy. If you called her a sl*t, you would get a fist in your face. That's basic, regardless of what race or gender you are.

I can also, when I am angry at him, call my brother a f*ing moron. My sister can do that, too. It's not meant to be sweet, but when it's family business, we can say things like that without it turning into an all-out feud. If you, on the other hand, tell me that my same brother is a f*ing moron, you're likely to get a fist in your face. Why? Because it's my family, and you don't talk to me like that about my brother. When you say it to me, it's an insult to me and my family's honor.

You all know this already. You're just pretending not to in order to feign outrage. What BS.

I think everything is based on itself in context. Doc's examples were good, certain people can say certain things.

And as for explaining the double standard to a four year old? I liked how my dad did it (hough i was five at the time, so it could be totally different)- "this is a very weird world, but if my little girl wants to say something she should know exactly what it means and she should be able to guess how the people shes talking to will react to it. And if you cant do that sweetie, then dont say it." Great way to explain to a little kid- doesnt answer the question, shuts them up, and a good thing for them to know.

But really, its a word. Words are wind. If we stopped focusing on words and focused more on whats meant, we'd prolly all be happier.

But Doc, this is the difference. We are not talking about just family.

Watch the video link I provided, I love the part where Barbra ask, "Is it OK, for black comics primarily like your self when you do an act and so, is it OK then to use it as it is still done, and not OK for white people?"

And Sherri Shepard responds "I have no problem when they use it, it has some that means some thing way different to me, then it does to you..."

In addition, think back to all the gangster rap where it is almost a common word used, singing about "Crooked @ss N*gga." (Tupac Shakur) or Snoop Doggy Dogg singing "Wanna grab a skinny n*gga like Snoop Dogg". Of all these songs, you rarely if ever hear any complaint about it, but if a white singer so much as even hints at the word, OMG its all over the news.

Well done.

Personally I do not like the word. Never saw a purpose with it.
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"Of all these songs, you rarely if ever hear any complaint about it, but if a white singer so much as even hints at the word, OMG its all over the news."

Yes, and I already explained why. It's nothing unique to white/black interracial relationships. The same principle applies to Jews and Gentiles. Jews can tell Jewish jokes safely. But a non-Jew that tells the same joke could, if the circumstances aren't sufficiently respectful, get himself in a lot of trouble.

There was a great Seinfeld episode... maybe the part I'm thinking about is on Youtube, if somebody can find it, where Jerry goes to Elaine's dentist who doesn't have a Jewish name, and the dentist starts telling him Jewish jokes. Jerry is offended, but then he finds out that the dentist is in the process of converting to Judaism, so it's okay, right? Jerry thinks a while, and then he is even MORE offended. Why? Well, it seems unfair to him. Doctors get to tell all the cool dentist jokes. It's not fair that he should get to tell Jewish jokes, as well. It's greedy, somehow. Like trying to corner the market on jokes. And he tells Elaine, that he suspects that her dentist is only converting to Judaism to tell Jewish jokes, not out of piety.

At the end of the episode, Jerry finds out that the dentist is very sincere, and he relaxes. Then Jerry tells the dentist a dentist joke, and the dentist and the dental assistant both become offended, because, well, Jerry's not a dentist, so THAT'S NOT COOL.

Oh well, this may be my last word on this. We have had this very same discussion before, so you know all this, already. I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to somebody who doesn't want to get it.

You and I have not had this discussion before, you may have with others, but not I. And interesting on the don't want to get it part.

Once again, we are talking about offencive words, not really jokes, thou those too can be seen as offensive as well in how they are told. But we are talking about blacks who can without offence use the word N*gger.

Maybe I should try this, to try and get my point across, how about the word K*ke. Do you go around calling other Jews (Non Family) K*ke as a term of endearment, with out offence?

Or how about for my self, I certainly don't go around calling other white people honky, as a term of endearment. Its offencive to do so.

Elizabeth Hasselback should not feel so helpless because she don’t know how to explain the usage of the “n” word to her kids. There is no law that say she can’t use it, and in fact she can start by calling her kids the “n” word and elevate her new found power by including her husband into the game the next time they are making nice, she, should just let it rip. In no time her family will see the “n” word as a word of love and respect. Problem solve! :einstein

Well, personally, I didn’t think it’s a double standard. I mean the word was taken from the Spanish and Portuguese word of Negro which is derived from a Latin word that means black. As in the color black. I’ve also read it somewhere, can’t remember now, that it was used by the Dutch in the old colony of New York.

Over time the word was used by Slave owning people of the Americas (Please note that they pronounced differently then the Latin, Dutch words) and that’s when, I believe, it became a derogator word and black people started to resent it. I guess as the anti-slavery movement grew in strength so did the link between the N word being a derogator term.

I guess blacks first used the N word as a way to shame their kids. I’m not really sure it just makes the most sense. Over time it was taken by rappers, mistakenly, as some kind of symbol which might explain why it spread so fast in the African American community.

I guess maybe the African American community was trying to take the word and change it into something positive. Because that’s how words function, by changing over time.

Judging by the rest of your post, you don't seem to know what double standard means...

And yeah this word is a good example of a double standard in society, personally I'm all for free speech and find this whole debate stupid. If you find it offensive when a white person says it, it means you harbour some very negative emotions about the word which would make no sense for you to be using it in your own speech in the first place. What if someone is half black/half white, can they say it? Pointless debate.

Quite frankly, I have trouble seeing the 'difference' between blacks and whites. To me, both parties are equally stupid and rude if they use that word.

Yeah, I can totally understand that. But if it's changed to something positive, why can't white people say it?

And, I don't call my friends or relatives slurs or, y'know, insulting things, even in jest... So I guess I don't get that.

Jooxis84-I pretty sure I know what 'double standards' means, yet what makes you think I don't?

Lockshockbarrel-I'm not sure why the black community is uncomfortable[font=&quot][/font] with white people saying it.

I guess an analogy might help people understand how I view this:

I’m sure most, if not all, know about the Crusades. Well am not sure what Western perception of the Crusades are, but over here they are seen as barbaric murders. A while back, I’m not sure when, there was a town in Iraq where a European army was stationed. (I believe it was Spain, but that doesn’t matter) Well the towns people were horrified because they thought they were going to be killed by modern day Crusades. Why? Because the soldiers have the symbol of the Cross on their uniform.

It seems silly to me, and I’m sure most of the people here, but not to the towns people. It doesn’t have anything to do with Christianity but the fact that there were white men with weapons and the symbol of the Cross.

It was an subconscious fear. Maybe that’s the same with the African Community. Maybe.

If and if the white community is uncomfortable with that then they can take the word ‘Cracker’ and forbid the Black community from saying that word.

[QUOTE=Black_Barook!]Jooxis84-I pretty sure I know what 'double standards' means, yet what makes you think I don't?

Lockshockbarrel-I'm not sure why the black community is uncomfortable[font=&quot][/font] with white people saying it.

I guess an analogy might help people understand how I view this:

I’m sure most, if not all, know about the Crusades. Well am not sure what Western perception of the Crusades are, but over here they are seen as barbaric murders. A while back, I’m not sure when, there was a town in Iraq where a European army was stationed. (I believe it was Spain, but that doesn’t matter) Well the towns people were horrified because they thought they were going to be killed by modern day Crusades. Why? Because the soldiers have the symbol of the Cross on their uniform.

It seems silly to me, and I’m sure most of the people here, but not to the towns people. It doesn’t have anything to do with Christianity but the fact that there were white men with weapons and the symbol of the Cross.

It was an subconscious fear. Maybe that’s the same with the African Community. Maybe.

If and if the white community is uncomfortable with that then they can take the word ‘Cracker’ and forbid the Black community from saying that word.[/QUOTE]

What is funny about that is, that there are folks here in Florida that do refer to themselves as "crackers" and very proud of it, yet no one make an issue of it as well as they should not. I have an idea of what all the fuss is about, but until I find a way to put it in the right context that do not offend I will keep it on the shelf for now.:egg

You did not elaborate on why you think it isn't a double standard and yet it seemed like you wanted to, but you talked about somehting that has nothing to do with double standards.

I did state why I didn't see what the black community is being of the double standard type.

"I guess maybe the African American community was trying to take the word and change it into something positive. Because that’s how words function, by changing over time."

I just went through the words history before stating why I thought it wasn't a double standard.

Regardless if it has a positive or negative connotation it is still a double standard. Because it's alright for one group but not alright with another. I, as well, don't see the need to use it. But I'm not about to forbid a whole group from using it if it's their wish. Also, hypothetically, if someone who is black calls you "nigga" first is it alright to say it to him/her? (if you are white)
In my opinion that just over complicates things. If I wanted to insult someone I wouldn't rely on their color, it's all so illusionary a concept.

BlackBarook:

The double standard here is:

It's OKAY for black people to say it and NOT OKAY for white people to say it- but it's the SAME WORD. A different standard applies depending on your race, therefore a 'double standard'. Nothing you said still has anything to do with that. It's also hard to think that it's "not a double standard" because that's excatly what it is. That's the definition of a double standard.

But ok this is not what the discussion should be about anyway.

this type of debate has always amused me, everyone has words that can be considered double standards. Example: Homosexuals call each other "Fag" and various forms of it, but god forbid a straight person that isn't a friend say it. We all have words that we don't want people we don't know to call us/use. What everyone should do is get their heads out of their arses and realize that they are just words and you should read in between the lines to see what the words mean but alas for some that would mean having to have actually learned something in school.

Honestly I think no one should say it including african americans. That word is offensive no matter who's mouth it comes out of and I don't use it and neither does my parents allow it. It kind of shows immaturity in a way.

Fair enough. It was probably Davious. But we have had multiple discussions like this on here, and I end up repeating myself. But, okay, I will dive in once again.

First of all, let me point out, that there doesn't exist a similar word to n****r for white people in colloquial American English. There just doesn't. Cracker comes slightly close, but only slightly, because it just can't possibly contain all the back history.

And let's be honest, it does matter who says the word cracker, and where, doesn't it? If you were in Compton (which I live just a couple of miles from), and your car broke down in an unfamiliar part of town, and some black youths came up to your window and said, "What are you doing on our turf, cracker?" you would probably be uneasy. The whole situation might itself make you uneasy, but the use of the epithet cracker in a situation where you are vulnerable and not in control is particularly threatening. In that situation, it is clearly hostile. And let me reiterate, cracker doesn't have nearly the history of venom behind it that the N-word has.

The history matters. You learn about these words growing up. I can feel a tiny bit of sympathy for Elizabeth Hasselbeck not knowing how to explain things to her kids, but I'm sure that black kids grow up knowing full well that the N-word has multiple meanings and usage.

You ask about the Kike word, and if Jews use it with each other. The answer is, yes, although not as an intimate greeting. You'll hear that word used to describe another Jew that was ridiculously stingy. Like, "Can you believe that s***head kike Aaron wouldn't pay the $10 donation to the kids who spray paint the house numbers on the curb? Unbelievable." There is no question that the same comment coming from a non-Jew would provoke a confrontation. It's rude, either way, but coming from a non-Jew, it's likely to start a feud. There are issues of honor.

I have been called a kike before, particularly when I was in school back in the sixties and seventies. It was a vile schoolyard taunt. Its intent was to start a fight. It places a burden of honor upon you, because you're not just the only one being insulted. All of your kind are. Using it Jew-against-jew is just belligerent. Using it Gentile-against-Jew is a deliberate ethnic provocation.

I have a wonderful book called "This is My God: The Jewish Way of Life," (1959) by best-selling novelist Herman Wouk, the same man who wrote The Caine Mutiny and The Winds of War. I recall something he wrote in it. He was struck by the mere power of the word Jew. As a playwright, he watched how New York audiences flinched at just the mention of the word Jew in a play, even when it was used correctly, not as an insult. The word has power, and part of that derives from the history of anti-Semitism that was once more prevalent in our country. People flinch because they are wary of what comes next.

I suspect that is what drives much of the N-word usage in rap. They deliberately want to shock. They want to show you a wall between them (blacks) and you. In a way, it is offensive, to whites. Personally, I won't listen to rap, and not just because of the lyrics. If I hear it while I'm at a stop light, I roll up my window and crank up the Mozart.



Perhaps you don't think so because you don't always perceive the line between insult and intimacy.

When I learned Spanish, the first semester, they taught us the difference between the "familiar" tense of the word you, and the "formal" sense of the word you, and the verbs that go along with them. For instance, if you are talking to a child or a lover, you use the familiar word "tu" (you). If you are talking to anybody else, you use the formal word "usted" (you). We don't have those same words in English, nor a separate verb tense for it, so it takes some explaining. When you want to insult somebody in Spanish, you must use the familiar, intimate tenses of the verbs. If you want to call somebody a jerk, you say "Tu eres un pinche bendejo," not "Usted es un pinche bendejo."

"Tu eres" is the familiar form of "You are." "Pinche bendejo," you can google yourself.

There is a principle here that crosses language barriers. That which is familiar or intimate in one context is an insult in another. It depends on how you know the person you are speaking of or to. Our Spanish teacher pounded this into us so we wouldn't get beat up on vacation.

Remember that Spanish crossover hit, "Eres tu." ? "It's you." From the context you know that it's a woman singing about her lover. The same words from above, but used in this context, it means love.

There isn't anything double standard about this. This is a global aspect of human language.

Have you ever called somebody Sweetie or Honey? That can be an insult in the right circumstances. Imagine if you were frisked by a police officer and he/she called you Sweetie? And Honey, well... I had a Texas girlfriend once that told me that Honey is almost always meant as an insult where she came from.

No, I think I do understand that... It's just, the n-word sort of crosses a line. If I had a relative who was mentally disabled, there's no way I would call them retarded, even if I was joking or something... It's just a really ugly thing to say.

Its possible...I wanna say last year maybe? Its been a while since we had a good "N-Word" discussion, not since the Imus nappy headed ho stuff, I think. If I recall, my position then, was the same as it is now...if you genuinely believe in racial harmony, in ending racial tensions, you can't have words that are acceptable to one group, and not acceptable to another. Either everyone can say it, or nobody should be able to. Its an incredibly divisive word, so if you want to end the divisions between races, you simply don't use it, period. I believe it was the only time I have ever written down the phrase "I actually agree with Al Sharpton", as he spoke out against the black community using it, if I recall correctly. I seem to recall him calling for an outright ban of the word by everyone...maybe it was Jesse Jackson, I don't remember all the details.