LOL frankie I try stay out of these kind of debates as much as I can. But as you can see I failed to do that when I opened this thread. But don't worry I will back away now.

Regarding prayers vs luck though, I think human will never know for sure until a time machine is invented. Go back to the times where the miracles happened and stop the person from praying and see if the same thing happened or not I don't think that kind of a machine will ever invented though, too bad.

Ok I'll shut my mouth now and stay away from this thread. Cheers.

You don't need to stay away from this thread, debates are just that... debates. We are expected to have opposing views at times, that's also what makes the debate fun.

aw.. if its any consluation they wouldent let my great grandma on a plane because she has a metal pin in her leg or somthing

back on topic tho. honestly treegag if you really think that sara palin's prayers arent going to get to him then you must not be a very good cristian. because read the bible or go to church or somthing becaue at my church [yes i do go to church] they teach us to accept people for who they are.. and to pray for those who do not want to be prayed for. but this sunday ... i might pray for you to become a little less naive

back to frankie- its hard for everyone to accept and love them selfs sometimes.. i have an eating disorder.. and i have since i was 6 i dont like that about me and im trying to get better and when i sit and think about it i dont like my self. but it is waht it is and all i can do it try to like my self and know that my friends and family do love and accept me <3

aw treeag... dont back away. you make the thread interesting.. with out you its just a bunch of people saying how they dissagree with palin

Being homosexual will never be made illegal. To love someone is not illegal. Don't worry!

Imagine a guy who has a beautiful wife but is homosexual in the first place. He is forced to love a woman just so he will be deemed "normal" and "a legal citizen". So sad. I mean everyone has a right to find their partner.

Destinita, it used to be illegal in the past. People were actually jailed and/or killed because they were homosexual.

I'm British, and even I hate this woman.

Before this veers too far off topic, let's just try to keep this thread focused on the original issue, rather than turning it into a general politician-bashing-free-for-all. We've already had plenty of that elsewhere.

hahah my family who still lives in lithuania hates her too i was talking to my cosin and she was like WTF is up with the VP lady shes f*ckin crazy..[in lithuanian of course <3]

Thank you for your kind words, twig.

My best friend was telling me that there is a chance that McCain is probably regretting having chosen Palin because of the bad press that she has suddenly been receiving. So maybe he will get her to shut up next time so that she won't ruin his chances on winning. See, the thing is, if Palin wants her party to win, she needs to be careful with all the things that she is supporting and saying, etc. I mean, sure, she is a conservative and is expected to express her beliefs and views to "reassure" people, but at the same time, the competition is fierce and Palin is doing nothing but scaring some p4eople away with things like mentioned in this topic. So that in turn can cause her to lose, or McCain to lose I should say.

Lolz.
I just moved to Canada and currently lovin' it.
Though I am straight, I can't believe this homosexuality bullcrap is still going on.
People need to grow up. ;-; Seriously,
"'Scuse me for having (what psychologists are now saying is) a birth defect that makes me into guys. Guess I'd better go to hell now. ;;" is basically what the gays are gonna say.
>_______> buuuuushhhhhhhh

see, i like being swish.

there are times when i think 'oh, it would be so nice to just to be like everyone else', but most of the time i think thank god i'm not like everyone else.

really i just wish i was interested in sports so i had something to talk about with guys. so instead i just sit there because i only want to talk about gay things like wine coolers and marie claire magazine.

Well in all honesty Frankie, there are ALOT of people out there that actually think like she does.....I wouldn't say its a small group either. I don't think McCain is regretting it at all, and if he were, well no one would know that but him. In the end people will vote based on who will do what with this economy...because I remember when Bush was re-elected all the same topics were covered and he won again....popular vote dosen't mean much its the electoral vote and at this point it could go either way....we still have 5 weeks or so and it will get interesting...sorry you have had to go through what you have been through...no one deserves it.

edit to add, if people seriously want to make a change and not have her in office then the "cell phone" generation and college kids need to make the effort to go VOTE!

Yes, I admit that I have been lazy to go and register for Michigan (I'm still registered at Wisconsin when I lived there for 2 years) and then I can go vote.

Jenny, my best friend was saying for me not to worry as much because the portion of people who are like this is so small... but I always thought it was larger than we imagined. So I am not sure as far as statistics go.

frankiepoo- any time babe =] im good at kind words ...if i was a sim... i think i would have maxed out nice points[ok can anyone telli play too much?]

but yea.. i live in the south [georgia to be exact] and there are alot of MCCAIN 08 bumperstickers that seem to all be next to the BUSH CHENY 06 ones its disturbing... >.< my mom wont even but a support the troupes one on our car due to her hatred to bush lol

Frankie:

Would you perhaps like a bit of insight into the "opposing side," so to speak? Maybe it might help to allay your fears about these evil Christians? I am a conservative Christian. Many, though certainly not all, of my opinions and beliefs align with "fundamentalist" thinking. I personally do not believe that homosexuality is entirely a genetic thing, nor that it is always something that you are born with. I believe that life experience can and does greatly influence one's sexual preference, trumping any preference or genetics that you might or might not have been born with. For instance, I myself am a woman who was raped and so find myself with very little attraction to men and, occasionally, some attraction to women. In the end, however, whether or not homosexuality is a lifestyle choice doesn't or at least shouldn't really matter.

Rather, I think the real issue at hand here is that most of my fellow Christians do not understand the historical context of the Old Testament in general and in specific the Levitical scriptures toward which they usually point in order to condemn homosexuality. I, however, do. This is why I, personally, do not believe that homosexuality as practiced in modern times, whether it's "just" a lifestyle choice or not, is a sin. I'm not going to go into the theology and the Ancient Near Eastern history here, as it would turn this post into a thesis.

But you see, Christians are humans, heir to all the weakness and fallibility of the human condition. The average conservative/fundamentalist Christian sincerely believes the Bible to be true...but often has not read it in its entirety and even less often knows anything at all about the Ancient Near East and its history, of which the Hebrews, to whom the Scriptures were given, were a part. They go to church and listen to what their pastors say, trusting them to know more than they do...but unfortunately, the pastors are often every bit as clueless and misinformed as their parishioners. So it's a cycle of misinformation. This is, of course, partly the fault of these Christians; they haven't done their homework, so to speak, choosing instead to just listen to what their pastor tells them and to repeat the mantra, "Because the Bible says so." Well, the Bible says things for a reason, and the reason is the part that they're lacking AND the reason they think modern homosexuals are committing some great sin. They most certainly are not...unless they're engaging in sex as part of a religious ritual the purpose of which is to worship a god other than...Well, God. This is also the reason why there are Levitical strictures against having anything to do with a menstruating woman...but I said I wasn't going to go into the theology.

Anyway, you'll find that the vast majority of Christians, even some of us conservatives, do not condemn homosexuals and/or want to take away their rights, even if they believe them to be sinning. Most Christians realize that everyone, even the "best" Christians, are still sinners. The "Christians" you see on TV are a vanishingly small but unfortunately vocal minority. Since their ravings get ratings, the media loves them. Try to bear that in mind. Further, bear in mind that even if McCain/Palin is elected, that doesn't mean that any of Palin's pet issues will become law. As vice president, she would have no true power unless McCain were to be incapacitated. Rather, the true political power lies in the Congress, not in the presidential office. And right now, the Congress is Democratic and likely will not pass any conservative pet projects.Nothing becomes law without Congress's approval. Heck, even when Congress was Republican, few of Bush's pet projects -- like defining marriage -- passed, did they? So chin up there, my friend. My prediction is that if McCain/Palin wins -- and I have my doubts about that -- things regarding gay rights are not likely to change much. I would say that you need to worry a lot more about who represents your state in Congress and what THEIR platform is, much more than you should worry about who gets elected president.

Thank you for the explanation iCad and I do agree with you in that many Christians fail to read/interpret the Bible correct and just go by whatever the pastor/priest tells them. And to add to the fact that these high role people are humans as well, my mother's former pastor had an affair with a minor for five years and he was well in his 30's. And he criticized and judged and preached away like nothing. That is just an example of the hypocrisy in her Pentecostal church.

I don't know if you believe homosexuality is a sin or not because I didn't get that implication or maybe I didn't understand your post towards homosexuality, but bear in mind that when a conservative Christian speaks their mind, I automatically put my guard up because I still have trust issues with such people. After all, it is true that the majority of conservative Christians are against homosexuality and believe it is a sin.

As for you theory on choice, I'm sorry to say this but you are not correct about that. Unless you are gay yourself or even bisexual, you would not have the capacity to understand. I have been bullied and tortured and hurt by males way more than females and I still am attracted to males and not females. Whereas you were raped and see men as "bad" and therefore it affected your view. But my experience did not affect my view as it has nothing to do with my sexuality. I was born gay because at the age of 5 I felt comfortable "playing" with boys and not with girls and I had crushes on boys. My mind was automatically leaning toward the same sex. And it only continued as I hit puberty. Why is it that you will believe that a straight person was born straight but not a gay person born gay? It seems to me that most Christians will always believe that one can be born straight but not born gay. A straight person feeling more inclined and attracted toward the opposite sex is no different than a gay person feeling the same toward the same sex. Just because a gay person has the same organs as the same sex does not mean it is impossible for him to fall in love or lust with the same sex. It's not about what body you have that determines your sexuality, it's about your mind and brain that determines that. It's just because to you a man and a woman make more sense together because they have different body parts. Again, it's all in the mind and not the body.

Sarah Palin is a nut. Every single time I learn something new about her it makes me dislike her more.
About the is homosexuality a choice or genetic, I don't think there will ever be a cut in stone type answer to that. Sexuality is fluid, just look at the Kinsey scale. There are gay and straight people who would never in their life switch sides, and then there are people who float around on the spectrum, and then there are bisexuals (who are not all 50/50). Regardless, gays should be treated no different then straight people.
I'm bisexual and I honestly believe that I didn't choice my sexuality. The only choice I had was to accept and grow comfortable with which I did. Still, I have met a few bisexuals who believe that their sexuality was a choice and I think that is just as valid. I mean there are plenty of straight people who end up falling in love with a particular person of the same-sex and I'm sure its happens the other way around too.
They should have the right to marry (and divorce), to adopt, and everything else that straight couples enjoy (and take for grant.)

And someone posted that Christianity isn't the most homophobic religion out there which I believe to be true. But at the same time in the United States Christians are the most vocally against it then any other religious group. Not to lump all Christians together like that but in my experience they have been the most hateful. (Of course that's a skewed observation since most people I have come in contact with are ignorant Christians which far out number the Wiccians, Buddhist, Muslims, and New Age folk that I know. Even still I have never had much of a problem from non-Christians when comes to topics like this. They may disagree but they don't feel that it is their life purpose to "save the gays." To me that makes all the difference.)


Sorry, Frankie, but I have got to speak on this one. I don't think simply because iCad isn't gay or bi her view of what makes people gay is less valid then ours. Just like I think foreigner's should be able to speak their mind on politics within this country. I do have issues with the view that heterosexuality is the default, and that something must have happened like rape to turn someone gay.
Like I said before, I'm a bisexual woman who believes that she was born this way. I knew I liked girls and boys when I hit puberty, around age 10. I struggled with my sexuality for years even after I came out when I was 15 to my family. But I have spoken with other bisexuals who believe it was their choice. (It's kinda murky waters because everyone seems to have a different definition of what bisexuality is. I've met people who think of it as an off/on switch, which it isn't, or the dreaded bi chic.)

Notice that I didn't say that it is NEVER something genetic or some sort of in-born predisposition; I said that it is NOT ALWAYS that way. There's a difference there. For instance, two of my dearest friends whom I have known for years happen to be a lesbian couple. Both of them attribute their lesbianism to the fact that each was molested by a man in teenagerhood, one by her father, the other by her uncle. I take them at their word, as I have no cause to believe they are lying to me. On the other hand, another lesbian friend whom I have had from childhood as well as my cousin with whom I have always been very close have both said that they "always knew" they were gay. I have no cause to disbelieve them, either, and the two explanations are not necessarily in conflict. For some people, they have lifelong feelings toward the same gender. For others, it's something that happens later in life, often because of life experience. One experience is not "lesser" than the other. The person born gay is not purer gay than a person who stumbles on it later in life. The two people have just arrived at the same place by taking two different paths to get there.

So, in short, I believe that sexuality of any persuasion is far more complex than mere genetics, as are most things psychological about human beings in general. I believe that many factors come into play. It's not that I don't understand you and your situation as a gay person for whom life has not always been pleasant at all; I do. The afore-mentioned cousin was severely beaten when he was a teen, so I know what happens and what you experience, though certainly not first-hand. I don't have to experience things first-hand in order to understand them. I just believe, given my own experiences, that homosexuality simply being a question of having a gene or not is far too simple. The life stories of homosexual people would seem to bear this out, as the stories do not all center around one explanation or another.

When you get down to it, human beings are more than the sum of their genes, and you as a precious and complex human being are selling yourself short if you attribute all that you are to mere genetics. You are far more than the sum of your parts, my friend.



Well, the natural inclination would be to answer that most people have to be "born straight" or else the species will not continue in any natural way. More seriously, most Christians of the type you are talking about would say that people were created as men and women in order to fulfill God's command to be fruitful and multiply. Two men or two women can't multiply. Therefore the concept has developed that straight is normal and gay is not and that therefore there must be something wrong with gay people.

Me, I believe there are gay people who were born that way. I believe there are gay people who became that way due to life experience (in my experience, this is more usually the case with lesbians than with gay men). In the end, I believe what really matters and what counts in the eyes of God is simply whether or not we love rather than hate, given that to love our neighbor is according to Jesus the greatest commandment. I don't think He much cares if the person we love has different plumbing that we do. I DO think He cares that Christians are indeed spreading hate, and I DO think that some Christians will be very surprised about who will be in heaven and who won't be, once they get there.

iCad, you have just redeamed the conservative Christian for me. Thank you.

Actually, The American Psychological association hasn't considered homosexuality a mental illness since 1977.

I don't actually understand your comment, but yeah. Just getting that out there.

you know, i'm inclined to agree. my mother really wanted a girl instead, so i tend to think there was some subtle psychological pressure (guilt?) to be more effeminate.

besides, it's not like she ever suggested i take up football, or complained when i taped champions on ice so we could watch it together every night when i was nine. oh that scott hamilton!

Really? I just read it in psychology today.
It's not a mental illness, per sey, but it's when you don't get enough of some manly chemical when you are unborn.
I guess. Idk.

</dumb blonde>

ok i had to say somthing about this lol

ok.. that obv cant be true because i have met alot of rape victims in my day [lots of "exuation" admissions to the mental help fasitily] and in group this subject would come up alot due to the fact it was a catholic hospital im assuming? and alot of the rape victims sayd they would never switch sides.. and alot of them havent. so i dont think its a defect/somthing trumatic that happened because if that was the case... id brobly be the most flamboint lezzies out there[haha... no but seriosly.. iv been in and out of the loony bin since i was six if thats not trumatic what is?]

I am by no means up on the latest research, but I do recall some twin studies being done, the results of which suggested that homosexuality is at least not entirely genetic. Were it entirely genetic and not at all affected either way by one's upbringing and life experiences or by biochemistry that isn't necessarily directly mediated by gene function, then if one twin in an identical set is gay, then the other should be as well. As I recall, this particular twin study did not bear out this hypothesis, suggesting that either upbringing/life experience can affect one's sexual preference and that that influence is perhaps more important than any genetic component that might exist or that neither nature nor nurture is entirely correct. As I said, it would not at all surprise me if it's more of a "some from Column A, some from Column B, and some from Column C" sort of situation.

But then, like I said, I'm not up on the latest and greatest research. If someone has more updated info, please do share.



LOL. Were I your mother, I probably wouldn't have complained, either. I hate football but have a rather embarrassing fondness for figure skating.