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Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#1 Old 7th Jul 2009 at 9:13 AM
GPU overheating...A LOT
Hi, I hope it's the right place to ask about this. What should I do if WITHOUT any game running CPUID Hardware Monitor tells me that my GPU temp is 70 C?
I'll only add that I checked this because TS3 crashes frequently in Live Mode (and only then). Can I cool it down somehow? Btw, the pc has been cleaned lately and the cooling paste or whatever it's called was changed. Help?

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
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Née whiterider
retired moderator
#2 Old 7th Jul 2009 at 3:08 PM
I take it this is a desktop?

The first thing I'd suggest is cleaning inside the case - if you've already done that, and it's still overheating, then you may have some serious problems. Is there a PCI card in the slot next to the GPU's fan? If so, can you move it? Having a free slot for the GPU fan to chuck hot air into can improve things. How many case fans do you have? And what model GPU do you have?

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#3 Old 7th Jul 2009 at 7:22 PM
Quote: Originally posted by whiterider
I take it this is a desktop?

The first thing I'd suggest is cleaning inside the case - if you've already done that, and it's still overheating, then you may have some serious problems. Is there a PCI card in the slot next to the GPU's fan? If so, can you move it? Having a free slot for the GPU fan to chuck hot air into can improve things. How many case fans do you have? And what model GPU do you have?


hey, thanks for reply. well there is no GPU fan, it has this passive cooling..um radiator or so. and the model is nvidia geforce 6600, but today I tried another card - nvidia geforce 9400GT and as soon as i ran the pc it got 69 C. and two programs confirmed that. I have 2 case fans.

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
shiny!
retired moderator
#4 Old 7th Jul 2009 at 11:13 PM
70C is not overheating for a graphics card. A lot of people invest in extra cooling to keep temps down because even running within parameters higher heat will wear a card down faster over time, but your temps aren't abnormal or any real issue. As for the crashing, it could be any number of things.

If you want to bring temps down then I recommend doing a thorough cleaning of your system. Part of this guide talks about that safely: http://modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=330401 Make sure that you leave the PCI slots directly next to the graphics card empty, and remove the slot cover of the empty slot right below it. If you have a mess of wires in there, you'll want to do some cable management. Wires can really hurt airflow. Other than that, buy something that doesn't have a passive cooling option. GPUs with passive cooling options tend to run hot.

ETA: I got that your gpu is idling at 70C and that is indeed hot. How high is it getting when you play and who reseated the heatsink on the card? Still recommend doing the above.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#5 Old 8th Jul 2009 at 8:39 AM
Quote: Originally posted by callistra
70C is not overheating for a graphics card. A lot of people invest in extra cooling to keep temps down because even running within parameters higher heat will wear a card down faster over time, but your temps aren't abnormal or any real issue. As for the crashing, it could be any number of things.

If you want to bring temps down then I recommend doing a thorough cleaning of your system. Part of this guide talks about that safely: http://modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=330401 Make sure that you leave the PCI slots directly next to the graphics card empty, and remove the slot cover of the empty slot right below it. If you have a mess of wires in there, you'll want to do some cable management. Wires can really hurt airflow. Other than that, buy something that doesn't have a passive cooling option. GPUs with passive cooling options tend to run hot.

ETA: I got that your gpu is idling at 70C and that is indeed hot. How high is it getting when you play and who reseated the heatsink on the card? Still recommend doing the above.



it gets up to 95 C after game. umm my boyfriend did that, he works as an information tech specialist but he's not really into games and stuff and graphic cards are not his thing. i'll check wires and clean the system, maybe that's it. it would be weird if two graphic cards were bad.

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
shiny!
retired moderator
#6 Old 8th Jul 2009 at 1:13 PM
95C is hotter than I'd be comfortable with but it's not technically overheating according to Nvidia and some cards will get that hot with stock cooling solutions, especially ones that are passively cooled and if the airflow in the case isn't great for whatever reason (design, dust, poor wire management, etc). Some cards do have problems at those temps regardless of what Nvidia says though. It will certainly shorted the life of the card to run that hot often.

Improper application of thermal grease can totally bork temps, which is why I asked about that. A lot of people are misinformed about the amount to install, for example. You can put on too much. You only want to use about the size of a grain of rice. Do you know what temps were before he altered the heatsink?

Post back when you do some cleanup and let us know if you were able to drop temps and/or stop the crashing.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#7 Old 8th Jul 2009 at 5:24 PM
so..
first of all - I managed the wires and moved stuff from slots close to the graphic card.
then I put in the new card (nvidia 9400gt) and I checked the temp. it was 66 C.
later on I launched the game to check if it crashes still. it doesn't, even after 4 hours and on the old card the game crashed after 15 mins.
after quitting the game I checked the temp and it was 86 C, so basically somehow a little less than before.
now there is one thing that bothers my mind. is it possible that my old card simply wasn't good enough for the game and the temp is another thing unconnected to it but caused by a failing temp sensor? honestly, I'm lost now. I'm afraid this new card will end up just like the old one because of sth I do not know about!

and about the heatsink - the temps were almost the same before he changed it.

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
shiny!
retired moderator
#8 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 1:18 AM
Doesn't seem like you have a temp sensor issue, but you have dropped your peak temps by almost 10C and that decrease could make things work now. That's a really significant temp drop. Neither card are particular great for running the game and people have reported problems using stronger cards. However the 6600gt is a really old card and it's possible it was just wearing out. If things are stable now then that's great. As long as it stays that way, you should be good to go.
Fat Obstreperous Jerk
#9 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 1:36 AM
No, this is a very real issue in TS3. See here. TS3 is trying to murder your computer. It's not a driver issue and its not caused merely by dirt. TS3 simply unnecessarily runs the GPU at excessive speeds for no good reason, and most GPUs simply don't have the kind of cooling needed to sustain that, and fry. This is actually more of a problem if you have a nice, shiny new expensive GPU.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.
shiny!
retired moderator
#10 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 1:53 AM
I'm sorry but you don't seem to have any idea what vsync does. Vsync is designed to limit the fps to the refresh rate of the monitor so that you don't get tearing. Vsync isn't this magic thing that is required to keep your graphics card safe. TS3 isn't the only game that doesn't have vsync and vsync can be forced in the control panel anyway. Vsync may limit the gpu activity on SOME computers (ones that have graphics cards strong enough to be able to render faster than the refresh rate of the monitor) and therefore does provide less stress on the graphics card in some circumstances. However, if a graphics card needs to be limited because it isn't able to run to its fullest potential and/or handle what the game throws at it then there's something wrong with the graphics card, not the game.

Please stop telling people that lack of vsync is killing their computer.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#11 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 9:11 AM
okay so I get that it should be rather fine now..but if limiting this vsync helps, then shouldn't I limit it somehow? just as preventive measures? I'm sorry, I get lost easily when it comes to pc stuff.

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
Fat Obstreperous Jerk
#12 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 10:13 AM
Quote: Originally posted by callistra
I'm sorry but you don't seem to have any idea what vsync does. Vsync is designed to limit the fps to the refresh rate of the monitor so that you don't get tearing. Vsync isn't this magic thing that is required to keep your graphics card safe.
One of the benefits of limiting the framerate of a program is that it DOES reduce the stress on the card. While MOST games simply do not hammer the system enough for this to matter, either because they innately restrict their own framerates, or because they are not performing high-energy computation, this is not the case with TS3.

Quote: Originally posted by callistra
TS3 isn't the only game that doesn't have vsync and vsync can be forced in the control panel anyway. Vsync may limit the gpu activity on SOME computers (ones that have graphics cards strong enough to be able to render faster than the refresh rate of the monitor) and therefore does provide less stress on the graphics card in some circumstances. However, if a graphics card needs to be limited because it isn't able to run to its fullest potential and/or handle what the game throws at it then there's something wrong with the graphics card, not the game.
Yes and no. Many graphics cards are simply not designed to run at maximum heat indefinitely, and do not have cooling structures capable of supporting that level of work. Additionally, drawing above 30 fps produces unnecessary work that is simply dumped as waste heat, because humans cannot even see anything faster, and the game itself has an internal clockrate of only 30 fps, meaning drawing faster than 30 fps only shows you the same game-frame repeatedly. The unnecessary rendering, in turn, creates additional heat, and if you already have heat dissipation issues, this will fry the computer.

Quote: Originally posted by callistra
Please stop telling people that lack of vsync is killing their computer.
In this particular case, it is definitely a contributor. Even vsync may not be enough. If you don't believe me, try it: Run framelimiter and then monitor the temperature on your card. Without framelimiting, your card can easily overheat into the 100+ range. On my computer, which is cooled with dry ice, this is actually visibly apparent, in that the ice will sublime off the card in an enormous geyser, something that will NOT happen if limited to 30 fps. We have empirical test results on this. If you are ALREADY getting overheat issues that crash your game and computer, you already have this problem. Lack of vsync isn't what kills the computer on its own, but if the computer was already having heat issues, the extra heat produced may be enough to break it. In fact, vsync may not even help, since some people for reasons utterly unknown set their monitor to ridiculous refresh rates and therefore, would not run into a vsync cap anyway. This is really an issue that goes beyond merely vsync.

With the OP's card already running at 70C even at rest, running TS3 at insane framerates will almost certainly overheat the card.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#13 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 12:12 PM Last edited by damnedcitizen : 9th Jul 2009 at 12:40 PM.
okay, so I take it that this vsync can't do me any bad, but can help at least a bit,so where should I set this vsync? somewhere in control panel? where?


****************************************************

okay I found it and turned it on. now tell me if I should set the refresh rate to sth else than it is now - 60Hz? or is it okay?

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
shiny!
retired moderator
#14 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 1:03 PM
Pescado. TS3 does not make a card run at maximum all the time. You trying to tell me that TS3 is the most demanding game on the market.. that it's going to make it run harder than Crysis, and every other high stress benchmark tool out there? It's going to run at its fullest potential to meet the needs of the game, and that's it.

Yes, I've already acknowledged that if a graphics card has problems, limiting what it does by using vsync may help in some cases, but it's certainly not the CAUSE of any problems and the way you keep talking about TS3, well it's very melodramatic at best, and quite misleading to most people who don't really understand the concepts. If people have a decent system and their graphics card is 1) strong enough to handle the game and 2) doesn't have any defects in cooling or anything else, it should have no problems running TS3. It's one thing to advise people to force vsync in the control panel to cut down on temps and unnecessary stress, it's another to go screaming from the rooftops TS3 is trying to murder people’s computers and failure to install your mod is going to destroy everyone’s graphics.

The 6600gt is quite old and could simply be wearing out the. The 9400 is weak but so far seems to be good to go on the game, and that was before vsync.

damnedcitizen, you need to leave the refresh rate at what the manufacturer set it out. 60hz is pretty standard for most LCDs so you might not be able to set it any higher. If you set it higher than it can handle you’ll start having problems with the screen.
Fat Obstreperous Jerk
#15 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 2:41 PM
Quote: Originally posted by callistra
Pescado. TS3 does not make a card run at maximum all the time. You trying to tell me that TS3 is the most demanding game on the market.. that it's going to make it run harder than Crysis, and every other high stress benchmark tool out there? It's going to run at its fullest potential to meet the needs of the game, and that's it.
You're ignoring the fact that TS3 is also a buggy pile of crap. Benchmark games and tools are made to run efficiently and generate their results as a point of competition. TS3's engine is poorly optimized and produces a lot of unnecessary results. I have empirically verified these results and none of your waffling and hand-waving is going to convince me otherwise. Unless you have empirical data that proves your point, it is nothing more than empty talk, unbacked by any empirical data...which I have.

Quote: Originally posted by callistra
If people have a decent system and their graphics card is 1) strong enough to handle the game and 2) doesn't have any defects in cooling or anything else, it should have no problems running TS3.
WHY this happens is irrelevant to solving the problem or its causes. Yes, it's true that in THEORY, if all these conditions were satisfied, nothing would go wrong. Unfortunately, the real world is not an ideal scientific experiment. A HUGE number of graphics cards *ARE* manufactured with inadequate cooling mechanisms, and TS3's code *IS* crap and not designed to consume only the resources it actually NEEDS, but rather, everything it can get its paws on.

Quote: Originally posted by callistra
It's one thing to advise people to force vsync in the control panel to cut down on temps and unnecessary stress, it's another to go screaming from the rooftops TS3 is trying to murder people’s computers and failure to install your mod is going to destroy everyone’s graphics.
I haven't actually stated that, YOU stated that. I merely pointed out that yes, TS3 is indeed murdering your computer and that replacing the drivers will do nothing, because the crash issues are thermal issues and not software issues.

Quote: Originally posted by callistra
damnedcitizen, you need to leave the refresh rate at what the manufacturer set it out. 60hz is pretty standard for most LCDs so you might not be able to set it any higher. If you set it higher than it can handle you’ll start having problems with the screen.
Changing the refresh rate on an LCD is useless, LCDs are not CRTs and do not refresh by the same physical mechanism. At best, nothing useful will be accomplished because an LCD's refresh rate is dominated by how quickly the picture elements can cycle (which is why anytime something actually moves, it dissolves into a blurry mass of crap), and at worst, trying to force the issue will result in your monitor behaving in an undefined manner.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#16 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 3:53 PM
guys guys calm down, I just asked...lol
well from all that I read here I understand that I should simply leave it as it is, but that this overheating will kill my gpu slowly and painfully and if I had a better graphic card there would be no problem with overheating, yes? well I'm not buying a third one (lol) so is there anything more I can do with this one or is that all?

btw after playing a few hours now the gpu temp was only 82 C, not 90 C, hurray! XD

oh and callistra, you are probably right about 6600, because I played Oblivion a lot last 2 years and maybe that's what wore it out? it's kinda demanding game as well.

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
Fat Obstreperous Jerk
#17 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 4:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by damnedcitizen
and if I had a better graphic card there would be no problem with overheating, yes?
This is not a guarantee. A newer, better graphics card will likely draw more power. As all of the power drawn by a graphics card is ultimately dissipated as heat, a newer, better graphics card with a higher power demand will actually be capable of generating even more heat than your older card will, and so this can actually make it worse. As TS3 will not confine itself to sensible draw rates, the new graphics card will ALSO be pushed to work to the limits of its capability for absolutely no good reason, and may also overheat if the cooling systems cannot tolerate this, resulting in your new expensive graphics card becoming fried. So not only is buying a new graphics card not necessarily going to help your overheating issue, it can, in fact, make it worse!

Quote: Originally posted by damnedcitizen
btw after playing a few hours now the gpu temp was only 82 C, not 90 C, hurray! XD
And this is with the limiters I suggested above, yes? No more crashing or exploding, no matter how much you gawk in CAS?

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#18 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 5:07 PM
yeah, nothing crashes even after hours of playing since I have the new graphic card, but now with vsync on the temp got a bit lower (86 C -> 82 C)

I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#19 Old 9th Jul 2009 at 5:20 PM
Pescado, while vsync can have an affect only becuase it skips frames, I have to agree with Callistra that you going around shouting that TS3 can kill your PC really doesn't help, at all.

To be quite honest, turning vsync on only really works to lower temps in very extreme cases (like this one, with passive cooling). On any decent card with a good cooler (which is pretty much most of them), you can leave TS3 running for hours and hours and not have issues. Heck, I have a Crossfire system with dual Radeon 4850s and they go up to over 100c with no issues. It all depends entirely on the individual card, the case, and the specific circumstance, so suggesting to"turn off vsync" or using some kind of "framerate limiter" should be reversed for only those specific cases, and not every one you see.

Please stop going on about this and let us handle the tech issues here, ok?

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Lab Assistant
#20 Old 20th Jul 2009 at 3:45 AM
I don't pretend to know a lot about computers but you may have overlooked an obvious possibility;
After installing a second cpu in my computer and thouroughly cleaning it in the process, my computer was shutting down due to overheating. of course I thought it was the new chip,"perhaps the machine can't handle two at once even though there are two slots?" when I opened the case to remove the offending chip I found that I had not plugged in the adjoining cooling fan once I did that the computer was fine. So, perhaps it is not your card that is burned out, but a malfunctioning fan that is the problem (btw I am running a 6500 and it does just fine)
shiny!
retired moderator
#21 Old 20th Jul 2009 at 3:52 AM Last edited by callistra : 20th Jul 2009 at 4:02 AM.
CPU is not the same as graphics card, which is what we're talking about here. You do need to plug in the CPU fan but you shouldn't have to plug in the cooling fan on any graphics card, unless for some reason the manufacturer just screwed up and didn't plug it in.. Anyway this should have been locked, as the problem is solved.
 
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