Not sure if I should start a new thread or merge this one with an existing thread. I think this issue is an important one to discuss.

Recently in the news, and other news sources, it has been shown that Proposition 8 is considered unconstitutional, because it violates human dignity and treats gays and lesbians as second-class citizens. With the court ruling, can this mark the end of the same-sex marriage controversy, or is it still ongoing? How long do you think the opponents of gay marriage will fight/oppose equal rights for gays and lesbians? As the court ruling states, there is no rational reason to be against gays and lesbians, so what is the point basically of this "debate"?

Likewise, on an issue such as Intelligent Design in the famous Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, it is widely cited that there are no rational grounds to support such a "theory" to be admitted into public schools, and indeed, it is mainly a religious concept in disguise. In a PBS video about the trial Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial, the Judge mentions that he fears that this conflict with last generations, and he fears that his own family is in danger because of his ruling in the court, when conservatives call him an "activist judge".

On a serious note, how long do you think these conflicts will last?

Perhaps, the unwillingness of the conservatives to give up has to do with the unwillingness to give up their way of life or original way of thinking? Perhaps, conservatives are concerned that these two issues somehow violate their sense of morality? It appears that way, since conservatives tend to use moral statements against gay marriage and intelligent design very frequently.

What do you think? And how do you think we can solve this problem? Should we, as a society, loathe conservatives for their factually incorrect and irrational platform, or should we try to help them understand that evolution and gay marriage do not clash with faith?

Many conservatives seem to oppose gay marriage for religious reasons or homophobia. I think conservatives in general don't like change, and may not have a lot of real life exposure to gay people.

I don't think anyone should be loathed. The best way to raise their conciousness, is for them to understand what it is like to be in a gay person's shoes, and for them to think about how that might feel.

I do think it is inevitable that we will have clashes that are based on faith. I don't think these can be solved unless the faith itself is tolerant. Since many religions preach exclusivity this is a problem.

Just let them get married. Jeez. It's not like they're having sex right on your lawn. You don't have to mow around them every day because they are having sex on your lawn. There's not a big patch of grass on your lawn where they have sex every day.

So true. They're on mine.

I don't think the debate is over, but it might be running out of things to say. There's a set list of things the antis say, a set list of things the pros say, and then some "la la la". Rinse and repeat.

And it will be repeated - in every jurisdiction which has not yet legally accepted gay marriage.

Some people still debate multi-racial marriage, ethnic rights, women's rights and so on. We'll be debating same-sex marriage for many years to come...

I personally belieive its bullshit that they're still arguing over this. Homosexuals have gone through so much abuse throuought history, I mean, people stopped believing it was a mental disorder in the 1950s! That's a little over just 50 years ago! Nowadays, we try our damndest to accept them as our brothers and sisters and certian people, especally radical conservatives and religious fanatics STILL treat them with disrespect. When people call them the disgusting word "Faggot", its like pouring acid on a large, open wound.

It depends on what 'people' you are commenting on. Sadly, Only recently did China stop considering it a mental disorder.

fraroc appears to be commenting on the issue of same-sex marriage, gay rights, and homosexuality in the United States. It's not that explicit, but those words do send clues on the location. In 1973, homosexuality has been removed from the classification of mental disorder from the DSM.

So far, the aftermath of Proposition 8 has led some conservatives to hope that the court case would be taken to the Supreme Court of the United States. Some people speculate that the court case might not receive a hearing; others think that the issue is important enough to receiving hearing and a final decision on the issue. We'll see what happens.

Last edited by NollemD : 9th Feb 2012 at 02:13 AM.

I think what a lot of conservatives need to realize is that you can't change the world, especially not by oppressing people. It has been shown by history that when a certain group of people are oppressed and persecuted, they tend to prevail. Now, I'm not saying conservatives are evil, wicked people. I'm a conservative. I'm just saying that the ones that want to ban same-sex marriages are A) Making themselves look like arrogant jerks and B) Forgetting that just because these people have different views on lifestyle, doesn't mean they don't have feelings, too.

As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I know that this will be a thing that carries all throughout our history. Even if people accept gay relationships/lifestyles/marriages there will always be someone that will have something to say about it.

two things people do not enjoy, in general, are addressed in homosexual rights:
1) lack of social drama, and
2) sharing.

as long as there are childish individuals among us who cannot wrap their heads around the concept of not berating thy neighbor for something that honestly does not effect them PERSONALLY, and as long as there are fear mongers to reinforce that behavior...it will be an "issue", and the horse will be be beaten well past its final decomposition stage.
but not a real issue, like say, large quantities of marine life dying off because of specific chemicals that contaminate the water that WE put there.
or even that our ozone is weakening because people just cant stop driving to everywhere they go, and cant be arsed to cut down on their meat intake*. hopefully we will run out of gasoline before that situation gets severe enough to destroy us. people just dont seem to realize that everything, EVERYTHING, is connected. sure, you may live in an air conditioned house during the hottest summers, but many PLANTS cant survive on less and less water caused by such hot summers, and few animals can endure it, too. we EAT plants and animals, and we NEED water, so you can freakin bet that we'll be effected by such climate changes one way or another.

but all of these "issues" have one thing in common: they require people to change...to adapt. and thats just not something a nation full of spoiled, entitled, selfish, overgrown children can bring themselves to do. i know i went a bit OT, but quite honestly, i dont see gayness as even a problem, much less a problem to get worked up about. i see death and famine and radiation as problems to freak out about--and gays cause NOTHING like that. unless you're insane. then, they do.

*people like my oldest brother are especially awful about this. i wouldnt be on board to get rid of ALL our cows, but saving steak/hamburgers/whatnot to be 2-3x a year only is not that big of a deal. unless youre secretly a velociraptor. which my brother probably is.

I think it is generally homophobia. I have a sister who thinks homosexuality should be outlawed. She has such an extreme view on gays, probably from her conservative religious values- And places like Focus on the Family, which keep pumping out how evil, sinful and the like gayness is.

If you consider that her viewpoint is probably at least a portion of the older population then some of where these views are understood.

Conservatives are by definition resistant to change and/or reactionary. If something was once one way then by social statistical certainty there will always be a certain percentage of people who desire to cling to the old way as opposed to the new social reality.

I wanted to join the fray because I recall reading somewhere in the distant past that the first Catholic wedding ceremony was between a woman and a woman.
Naturally now at this time of night I can't find any references so sorry about that.

What I did find is this:

Gay marriage is rare in history—but not unknown. The Roman emperor Nero, who ruled from A.D. 54 to 68, twice married men in formal wedding ceremonies, and forced the Imperial Court to treat them as his wives. In second- and third-century Rome, homosexual weddings became common enough that it worried the social commentator Juvenal, says Marilyn Yalom in A History of the Wife. “Look—a man of family and fortune—being wed to a man!” Juvenal wrote. “Such things, before we’re very much older, will be done in public.” He mocked such unions, saying that male “brides” would never be able to “hold their husbands by having a baby.” The Romans outlawed formal homosexual unions in the year 342. But Yale history professor John Boswell says he’s found scattered evidence of homosexual unions after that time, including some that were recognized by Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. In one 13th-century Greek Orthodox ceremony, the “Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union,” the celebrant asked God to grant the participants “grace to love one another and to abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all thy saints.”

So why are some people just so blind? Really? I think homophobia is a modern thing. Even when I was in school in the 1980's in a very very christian country did we learn in Latin class that no man or woman could stand before Caesar.

I'm reminded of that Barry Goldwater quote that's become a sort of meme now:

Emphasis added for the most relevant portion. Now, I'll disagree about "can't and won't" which to me imply a certain amount of finality. I think they can and will. You don't hear too many Christians quoting the Bible in defense of slavery these days, so yes, change can occur. It'll just be a painful, slow, dragged-out process whose greatest tipping point will come when a great portion of the bigots have finally died (surveys show far greater levels of support in younger generations than older), just like ending slavery and establishing civil rights for blacks and women.

Speaking of slavery and civil rights, we're ~150 and ~50 years out from key moments of progress in those fights, and at least 2 generations have been born and raised in an era without institutionalized segregation. Yet racism lingers, and not just among the elderly. Abortion rights have been established for a similar amount of time, and that remains an openly contentious issue that has to be actively protected today. Even if we in the US all woke up tomorrow with a new amendment in the Constitution forbidding discrimination by sexual orientation, the issue would not end for quite some time. People would be fighting to have it reversed; probably some locales would devise some Jim Crow-esque laws to try getting around the new rules. And of course just plain de facto insults and attacks would linger.

And quite frankly I'm to the point of believing that anyone vehemently supporting intelligent design in school science classes or is anti-gay marriage is just flat out willfully ignorant and beyond help. You can explain until you're blue in the face that John marrying Steve has absolutely zero impact on Mark marrying Alice, that gayness isn't a choice (and even if it were, so fucking what, you fascists), that science does not work that way... to no avail, because they just don't want to hear it. And now they're in the way of social progress and endangering America's ability to scientifically competitive in the world, and it's time to just bulldoze right over them and stop vindicating their hateful and demonstrably wrong beliefs with any amount of attention. They will always be wrong. They were wrong when their ilk argued, through hate and through false concern, that blacks were better off as slaves and second-class citizens, they were wrong when they argued women shouldn't have voting or property rights or education, and they're wrong now.

And no, they're still not going to shut up about it within my lifetime, I'm sure.

I believe it is something that we are doomed to fight against , as long as Religions (in plural) refuse to be Up to date .(to be altered , changed , edited) .

Hell...just last year I got this dumped on me , and it came out of the blue too !

It wasn't on a christian topic , but a Nancy Grace Topic lol and from a Lady who was part of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism movement .

One last thing , the video (1st link is about exorcisme the gay , I didn't watch the video but beware if you do ) .

sure the church believes in change. it believes in changing whatever text they need to, to suit their desires.
the bible has been edited numerous times. slavery used to be OK, far as the bible was concerned. rape is still used in moral lessons, and the lesson is not that rape is awful.
i have yet to see buddhism cause major physical altercations or social stigmas, so i leave that one alone. the problem with religion is that as years go by and social attitudes progress length by length, religion moves only an inch in a progressive and tolerant direction....and it is my personal opinion that anyone who thinks that living in the past is a good idea, should get to work on a time traveling machine.

videos like that scare me because it tells me that if someone were to fall to the floor and have a heart attack or a serious seizure, these people could not be relied upon to actually seek medical intervention. they'd probably just stand around them and scream HOMO DEMON BEGAWN until the person died, or something. so primitive.

Lmfao. xD

Yup. The Bible says a whole lot of things that very few if any Christians believe we should follow today (if they're even aware those things are said in the Bible, that is).

Christianity is a very adaptive religion. Someday in the future the homosexual verses will be among those verses that advocate slavery, in that they will be tossed aside and not taught anymore.

I really don't get that. We have a group of Christians claiming that the Bible is the inerrant word of God... Yet they don't even follow the entirety of the Bible. I am no longer a Christian so this is very clear to me now. It no longer even makes any sense. The Bible is nothing more than a relic of an ancient society and therefore also reflects the flat out inhumane and prejudiced views of that ancient society.

They try so hard to cover it up, but it can't be covered up anymore.

Anyway, sorry, really don't want to turn this into a validity of Christianity debate here. I just think what I pointed out is essential. When people argue for '(Christian) traditional marriage' when arguing against homosexual marriage, they really have no idea what all they're advocating. For example, you all may have heard the case in Morroco of a girl that got forced to marry her rapist (and later killed herself because she couldn't take it). That marriage is Biblically approved. Deuteronomy 22:28.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm certainly glad that many Christians have gone progressive. It shows some good in humanity. However, I really think it's time we recognize the Bible for what it really is.

See also: the handy little graphic shared by kattenijin here.

im still not over this one, courtesy of kiwi_tea. it just goes to illustrate that some people have really weird ideas about sexuality and how a person is "supposed" to interact with another person.