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Alchemist
Original Poster
#1 Old 19th Jul 2014 at 9:10 PM Last edited by Rawra : 20th Jul 2014 at 10:09 PM.
Default Is discrimination against majorities not as relevant?
Spending time on Tumblr educates you in some matters, but it does so aggressively and offensively, if you ask me. Basically, if you're straight, white, cis, male or mostly any combination of those so long as you're white, your opinion is irrelevant and other people are entitled to be bigoted against you.

Now don't get me wrong - POC have it much worse than white people, in terms of wage and society, at least in the US. But does that really excuse being a jerk towards white people? Is that not racist? The definition of racism says nothing about a certain race. Some call it 'reverse racism', just to diminish its importance. I call it racist. I hate discrimination and, quite frankly, to me, if you're a bigot, it doesn't matter who you are, you're still a bigot.

I'd really love to hear the opinions of, I say, more mature people than the usual lot you inevitably face on Tumblr.

EDIT: changed the title to suit the current discussion better.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
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Scholar
#2 Old 19th Jul 2014 at 9:39 PM
To answer the thread title's question. Nnnn... that's tough to say because everyone has their own experience with it. So here's just what I've personally experienced;

Yeah, a little bit. As a white person I have dealt with "racism" firsthand. Yeah, it sucks and I didn't like it, but in the long run it really didn't affect me at all. Those kids that tormented or harassed me were just bullies and that's really it. If I were the same color as them they would've just bullied me for something else, to be perfectly honest. In fact, even though the things they said to me were, in fact, blatantly racist, it just didn't feel like racism, y'know? It just felt like they were just being... well jerks, and my skin was something they could use against me.

To even compare the "racism" I've felt as I white person to the discrimination I feel and continue to feel for being LGBT. Well, it's dumb really. Because of my sexual orientation I live in a world where I don't have the right to marry. If my (hypothetical) spouse were to hospitalized I would have no say in any of that. I live in a state where my boss could come up to me and say "We don't want gays working here" and fire me on the spot, and that would be perfectly legal. I will have to live with the fact for the rest of my life, that there are people out there that believe that I'm disgusting. There are people who think that I'm trash. That I don't deserve love, happiness, or respect. That because I'm different because of something I didn't even choose I will burn in punishment for the rest of my (miserable) existence. I see it and hear it almost everyday. I know that when I have a significant other I'll have to correct people's pronoun usage, and I know it'll be a constant reminder of how I'm different. How my parent's will never see my fairy-tale wedding with a bride and a groom like they thought I would have for so many years. To even compare being that type of minority with the ignorant comments of some loudmouth bullies, much like ones you've encountered on tumblr is dumb. Because of those silly comments I'm not at risk. I'm not at risk of losing my job because I'm white. I'm not at risk of being attacked or beaten. I'm not at risk of being shunned and losing my family. I'm not allowed to have a spouse and live underneath a government that finds my rights to be fundamentally inferior because I'm white, no. They're just not the same.

I'll step off my soapbox now. Sorry about that.

Just call me Blake! :)
Hola, hablo español también - Hi, I speak Spanish too.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#3 Old 19th Jul 2014 at 9:54 PM
That's what I wanted to say, of course it doesn't compare to what POC experience, I'm just talking about it as an idea. I feel like fighting fire with more fire is useless. I mean, I'm a bisexual girl living in a pretty conservative country, which automatically subjects me to different kinds of discrimination every once in a while (would be a LOT more if people knew I was bi). I am catcalled on the street, I have to endure homophobic behaviour at school and keep quiet, not to mention a painful kind of misogyny, especially when it's coming from girls, surprisingly so. However, I don't think that me hating on straight males would help my cause in any way, only make it worse. I think people just really have to learn to live with each other, we're literally all the same, a slab of meat on a weak skeleton. Sometimes I feel like the line between activism anti-discrimination and activism pro-discrimination is extremely blurred in too many people's minds.

Again, I am not feeling affected by this kind of racism, I don't get called out on the street for being white, I don't get bullied or anything like that. The concept in its own bothers me, and the way that people (and by people, I mean ALL oppressed groups) fight fire with fire, as I've stated above. We'll never work out our so-called differences if we act like this.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#4 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 12:20 AM Last edited by NaeShelle : 20th Jul 2014 at 12:29 AM. Reason: omfg i can't even type properly
I wouldn't say racism against white people in the U.S. is irrelevant, just that it's not eve a thing bc racism is more than just feeling a certain way. When we talk about racism, there's often a power dynamic being asserted in whatever context or situation we're discussing.
For instance, "cracker" vs. "n-gg-r". You can obviously tell which one is worse just by the fact that I must censor one and not the other, but, there's more to it than that. There's a legacy of pain and racism behind one word where there's only meaness behind the other. I think that's what a lot of "racism towards white people" is about. It's not racism, just people being mean.
I think you can be prejudiced against white people. You may even be able to discriminate. But there's no institution established against white people that upholds values set upon diminishing the worth of white people so, no, I really don't think you can be racist against white people.
I think (in my own experience) what a lot of white people view as being attacked isn't anyone attacking them, it's people being honest. Like, I'm sorry but a joke about a white person being pasty isn't the same as a joke about the darkness of my skin looking like (excuse my language) shit bc of the historical implications behind the jokes (which stilllllll affect us today).

(p.s. omfg please do not say anything about the Irish. I'm not saying you were going to but I s2e whenever you say anything about racism against white people, people always like to bring up the Irish. Ethnic/nationality-focused disparities within one racial group does not racism make. I understand the Irish were probably discriminated against but no. Not even anything close.)

Queen of the Land of Typos.

Check out my simblr.
Lab Assistant
#5 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 1:11 AM
1. Tumblr is full of creeps and weirdos. I have seen disturbing things on it without looking for it.
2. A lot of "social justice activists" insist that everything in the least bit negative said about any person of color is horrible racism and people of color can do no wrong against white people. I disagree with them. They talk about privilege incorrectly, mis labeling the source of it.

--Ocram

Always do your best.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#6 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 10:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
I think you can be prejudiced against white people. You may even be able to discriminate. But there's no institution established against white people that upholds values set upon diminishing the worth of white people so, no, I really don't think you can be racist against white people.


I have already stated that I consider it to be much less of a problem when it's about white people, but it still fits the definition of racism, so that's what it is. It's about the concept, not about how it's being executed. I had this fight, if you will, with someone on YouTube, who said that she wouldn't care if someone of another race called her the n word, so long as they're not white. Isn't that kinda hypocritical? Why do you care what race the person who's being racist about you is? Does it really matter? I feel like so many people are biased in their opinions, that's one of the reasons why we just 'can't have nice things'.

Quote: Originally posted by AzemOcram
everything in the least bit negative said about any person of color is horrible racism and people of color can do no wrong against white people


Basically what I was being mad about. That's racism. On Tumblr, I'm pretty sure that the majority of people believe that white / straight / cis people are bigots by birth and that they need to hold their mouths and not state their opinions because they are irrelevant. A little off-topic, but do you know how much shit Macklemore got for being pro-gay rights? Because, and I quote, "he's a straight white cis male who doesn't know about gay people's struggles". As a bisexual person, I consider that he, as a majority, can give voice to LGBTQ+ members who would never be allowed to have a say in such matters, for example. I hate that it's so hard to see past our identities when it comes to stating opinions, especially when he was PRO this community, even if he did it for attention, he still did what others wouldn't have. That's why I'm saying that certain ideologies apply to everyone. You can be discriminating against majorities, and it can hurt these people.

I live in a country where there are a lot of Rromani (sp?) people, and most of them are extremely racist (mostly against white people, but usually they just hate whatever stands out of their communities). They despise white people (and women, and gay people, etc), you sometimes do get called out on the street for any of those things and it makes you feel like shit. Is that not racism just because it's aimed at white people? I beg to differ. It's a preconceived idea that should be crushed.

Equality is what we should be striving for, not fighting each other like idiots. If you want your voice to be heard, you need not shut someone else up so you can speak. Obviously, that applies to anyone, but it's foolish to believe that only white people can be racist, only men can be misogynistic, only women can express misandry. I've noticed that people just enjoy hating one another, and this attitude is only fueling this situation. However, yet again I feel obliged to emphasize that I am not, in any way, comparing what white people experience from PoC with what PoC experience in general. I am aware of the wage gap, I am aware of those problems, but you can't blame a whole race (or gender, as it were, because apparently, in the US, since I haven't heard it happening in Romania, women are being paid less than men) for what a couple of dickheads in the government or CEO assholes decide. In the mundane world (and now I'm referring to my country, which is, as I've stated before, a lot more conservative than the Western world, we're still not completely out of communism if I'm any judge), racism as a behaviour from mundane people isn't as spread as the internet or the corporate world's attitude might lead you into believing.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Née whiterider
retired moderator
#7 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 11:55 AM
To answer the title question, in the vast majority of situations, yes, it's irrelevant. As NaeShelle said, racism isn't just someone being cruel to someone else and using their race as an excuse or a reason. Racism involves a commonly-held worldview which, directly or indirectly, reduces the human value of people of a certain race because of their race. It involves ingrained practises and attitudes which construct people of a certain race as an amorphous lump without the qualities which make "real" people valuable.

Someone saying nasty things to a member of a racial majority because of their race is shitty and wrong. It might be described as racially-motivated, but it's not racism.


And regarding this bit of your post:
Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
Spending time on Tumblr educates you in some matters, but it does so aggressively and offensively, if you ask me. Basically, if you're straight, white, cis, male or mostly any combination of those so long as you're white, your opinion is irrelevant and other people are entitled to be bigoted against you.

That's entirely untrue. Mostly, impressions like these come down to two things:

First, a "not all men" attitude. Groups of QUILTBAG or other minorities make some jokes or negative comments along the lines of "Cis people be like...", and instead of realising that, firstly, that's shorthand for "Certain cis people, who annoy the fuck out of me, be like...", and secondly that those kinds of comments don't mean the author actually thinks that cis people are bigots by default, but that the author's everyday life is full of shit from people who are cis and making jokes is an outlet for that frustration - end up feeling offended, and going "I'm cis and I don't do that! You can't say that!". Which, y'know, in a perfect world would no-one ever make generalisations, even in jest? Maybe. But we don't live in a perfect world, and if you hear someone who has to deal with constant shit from people who are cis, motivated by the fact that those people are cis and the author is not, making a frustrated, generalising joke about this dominant majority that you and 90% of the assholes in the world happen to be part of? Assume they are talking about the assholes. Don't get defensive. And of course, this applies to any distinction, not just cis/uncis.
This might be worth a read: Scarleteen - I feel bad for being straight

Second, people mistaking privilege for a sin. Pretty much everyone in the world is privileged in at least a few ways, but it's a kind of subtle concept and lots of people get it wrong. A lot of people think that describing someone as privileged is an accusation, that saying "You're really fuckin' privileged" is like saying "You're really fuckin' bigoted" or "Wow, you just don't have empathy at all, do you?". That's not what privilege is at all. Privilege is largely innate: because of who you are and the society you live in, you have privilege. You can't generally change that, because you can't stop being part of privileged groups (white, male, cis/binary, able-bodied, straight, etc) - I suppose you could piss away all your money to lose the privilege of financial security, or get yourself deliberately hurt to lose the privilege of being able-bodied, but that would be stupid. When we talk about privilege as a negative thing, it's not a negative thing to be privileged.
What's negative is to be privileged and not realise it, or not pay attention to how your privileges affect your worldview and your understanding of others. "Check your privilege" doesn't mean leave it behind, it means, think about what you just said and whether or not it's coloured by assumptions you've made on the basis of your privilege. Being privileged or not really makes no difference in the end, if you're introspective and willing to listen and learn from people who aren't, in order to figure out how privilege colours your perception of the world, and see past that when needed.

If you're struggling with this, look at the people whose stuff you're reading on tumblr - figure out who they are. Laci Green, an awesome feminist blogger, is very privileged: she's cis, white, educated, conventionally beautiful, not an immigrant, wealthy enough, at least, for a laptop and internet and flying around the US to give talks, has no physical disabilities that I'm aware of... all tumblr activists are privileged in some way. Being straight, white, cis, or male is not what sets anyone apart from that group.


The thing with Macklemore, as far as I saw, wasn't so much about what he said - which was great - but about the fact that he was hailed as being so brave for saying it. It's great that he supported QUILTBAG rights in public, but it wasn't a courageous move on his part: as an ally in 2014 America, he wasn't really taking any risks by coming out in support of marriage equality. Which doesn't mean that he shouldn't have done it, it just means that some people who do take big risks as part of activism were cheesed off that he got so much credit.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Field Researcher
#8 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 3:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
I have already stated that I consider it to be much less of a problem when it's about white people, but it still fits the definition of racism, so that's what it is. It's about the concept, not about how it's being executed. I had this fight, if you will, with someone on YouTube, who said that she wouldn't care if someone of another race called her the n word, so long as they're not white. Isn't that kinda hypocritical? Why do you care what race the person who's being racist about you is? Does it really matter? I feel like so many people are biased in their opinions, that's one of the reasons why we just 'can't have nice things'.


No, it's not just about the concept. I'm sure you've heard it said before, but racism isn't just prejudice. It's power plus prejudice. "Power" in that white people (for some very obvious reasons) have the higher ground in society. Racism is very much about "how it's being executed" because there's a very thin line between actual racism and your everyday, run-of-the-mill prejudice - and how it's being executed makes that difference. (re: example about "cracker" vs. "n-word").

About the whole Youtube thing. Goodness. First of all, no, that's not hypocritical. Racism is not ahistorical (if you will). A white person calling me the n-word does not have the same implications of, say, a Latino person calling me the n-word because of the history of the U.S. in which the enslavement of one race and near-'bout genocide of another (which were crucial in even building the country) was perpetuated by white people. There's bad history behind a white person calling me the n-word. Granted, I don't want anyone calling me that word, but, we can't just pretend like history doesn't exist and a lot of us (and by us, I mean black people) aren't still dealing with unfairness and discrimination today based on what happened all of those years ago.

Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
Basically what I was being mad about. That's racism. On Tumblr, I'm pretty sure that the majority of people believe that white / straight / cis people are bigots by birth and that they need to hold their mouths and not state their opinions because they are irrelevant. A little off-topic, but do you know how much shit Macklemore got for being pro-gay rights? Because, and I quote, "he's a straight white cis male who doesn't know about gay people's struggles". As a bisexual person, I consider that he, as a majority, can give voice to LGBTQ+ members who would never be allowed to have a say in such matters, for example. I hate that it's so hard to see past our identities when it comes to stating opinions, especially when he was PRO this community, even if he did it for attention, he still did what others wouldn't have. That's why I'm saying that certain ideologies apply to everyone. You can be discriminating against majorities, and it can hurt these people.


Macklemore didn't get shit for being pro-gay rights, he got shit for being the "voice" of the gay community when there were other gay artists who've stepped out & talked about the issue before him. Especially since he stole a song from a black queer artist but... That's another topic.

He didn't get hurt and he wasn't discriminated against. Macklemore is part of the majority - his job isn't to "give voice to" a community but to help their voice be heard, which is kinda not the same thing. And, it wasn't even so much against him, just what the media was doing to his image and how he wasn't really trying to stop it.

Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
I live in a country where there are a lot of Rromani (sp?) people, and most of them are extremely racist (mostly against white people, but usually they just hate whatever stands out of their communities). They despise white people (and women, and gay people, etc), you sometimes do get called out on the street for any of those things and it makes you feel like shit. Is that not racism just because it's aimed at white people? I beg to differ. It's a preconceived idea that should be crushed.


Where do you live? Because historically the Rromani people have been despised and regarded as dirty travelers (and suffered through a hella ton of crap during the Holocaust they're still dealing with) everywhere they've gone so it's not like they have the whole "power" side of the power + prejudice equation down. They can hate white people, but they can't do anything with that hate. Again, racism isn't just a feeling, it's about institutionalized power. So, prejudiced, yeah, they probably are. But not racist.

Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
Equality is what we should be striving for, not fighting each other like idiots. If you want your voice to be heard, you need not shut someone else up so you can speak.


It's just the opposite, actually. Not about the equality thing, but your other point. The only people who can be the voices to minority groups are people in those minority groups and if that means shutting someone else up so that we can be heard - so be it. I don't need someone speaking for me, but I do need them to move out of the way so that I can be heard. It's a matter of being heard. But, it's easy to say "don't do that" but not look at the people standing in our way and tell them to move.

Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
but you can't blame a whole race (or gender, as it were, because apparently, in the US, since I haven't heard it happening in Romania, women are being paid less than men) for what a couple of dickheads in the government or CEO assholes decide.


Except that, once again, it's not just what the government or CEO assholes decide. Racism, sexism, homophobia - these are not ahistorical issues. There is a past behind each and every single one of these issues in which white people, men or heterosexual people have been in power and set the standard for everyone not like them. We can't ignore history and then try to tackle issues that deal with it. If you're going to ask why these groups are responding with such amount of vitriol now, ask what they've got to be fed up with. Once again - This stuff is not ahistorical.

I find it very interesting that it's thought of as "blaming" an entire race or gender, when it's kinda not. You said equality is what we're fighting for, right? That's what we're fighting for. It's not like people are walking around looking at other people going "you owe us reparations!" - it's people walking around looking at the groups that have historically oppressed them and saying "not anymore. treat us equally." Why do you feel like that's them blaming entire races or genders?

Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
In the mundane world (and now I'm referring to my country, which is, as I've stated before, a lot more conservative than the Western world, we're still not completely out of communism if I'm any judge), racism as a behaviour from mundane people isn't as spread as the internet or the corporate world's attitude might lead you into believing.


Statistically speaking, that's not even true. We can get around to the number of "minority" individuals (racially speaking) that have been stopped and frisked, suffered police brutality, followed around stores, &c. but racism isn't as "mundane" as you'd like to believe. It's just not your reality.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

Check out my simblr.
Spice Pony
#9 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 4:32 PM
As I understand it:

The problem with this issue is that there are multiple definitions of what racism is, and no consensus as to which is correct. Is racism discrimination based on race, or is it racial discrimination done by a majority toward a minority? I personally think that the latter definition is a little ridiculous, but as I say that, I can see the arguments for both sides. It's almost more of a linguistic issue, when it comes right down to it.

On one hand, the term "institutionalised racism" doesn't quite capture the same notion as the narrower definition of racism, and I can't think of any term that does. There's something to be said for encouraging the existence of unique terms for everything, for clarity's sake. But then again, the fact that this is an issue shows we're already having problems with clarity.

On the other hand, in my experience at least, the broader definition is the one more in common use. Normally, I'd suggest favouring the technical definition over the common definition, but as already mentioned, there's disagreement even from a technical standpoint. That leaves an opening for favouring the common definition.

Another thing to consider is precedent. Pretty much every other big kind of prejudice (sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc.) is encapsulated in a single, simple term. "Racism" fits. "Racial prejudice" or "racial discrimination" doesn't. Then again, this is arguably kind of a weak argument to begin with, and I can think of an obvious counterexample (religious intolerance),

In the end, I personally prefer the broader definition, simply because that's what I grew up with. But that's just me.

In any case, I think this whole "can you be racist against white people" argument is somewhat useless, due to the issues outlined above. But the OP is about more than that, Let's focus on that, over the linguistic disagreements, eh?
Lab Assistant
#10 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 5:12 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nysha
First, a "not all men" attitude. Groups of QUILTBAG or other minorities make some jokes or negative comments along the lines of "Cis people be like...", and instead of realising that, firstly, that's shorthand for "Certain cis people, who annoy the fuck out of me, be like...", and secondly that those kinds of comments don't mean the author actually thinks that cis people are bigots by default, but that the author's everyday life is full of shit from people who are cis and making jokes is an outlet for that frustration - end up feeling offended, and going "I'm cis and I don't do that! You can't say that!". Which, y'know, in a perfect world would no-one ever make generalisations, even in jest? Maybe. But we don't live in a perfect world, and if you hear someone who has to deal with constant shit from people who are cis, motivated by the fact that those people are cis and the author is not, making a frustrated, generalising joke about this dominant majority that you and 90% of the assholes in the world happen to be part of? Assume they are talking about the assholes. Don't get defensive. And of course, this applies to any distinction, not just cis/uncis.

Second, people mistaking privilege for a sin. Pretty much everyone in the world is privileged in at least a few ways, but it's a kind of subtle concept and lots of people get it wrong. A lot of people think that describing someone as privileged is an accusation, that saying "You're really fuckin' privileged" is like saying "You're really fuckin' bigoted" or "Wow, you just don't have empathy at all, do you?". That's not what privilege is at all. Privilege is largely innate: because of who you are and the society you live in, you have privilege. You can't generally change that, because you can't stop being part of privileged groups (white, male, cis/binary, able-bodied, straight, etc) - I suppose you could piss away all your money to lose the privilege of financial security, or get yourself deliberately hurt to lose the privilege of being able-bodied, but that would be stupid. When we talk about privilege as a negative thing, it's not a negative thing to be privileged.
What's negative is to be privileged and not realise it, or not pay attention to how your privileges affect your worldview and your understanding of others. "Check your privilege" doesn't mean leave it behind, it means, think about what you just said and whether or not it's coloured by assumptions you've made on the basis of your privilege. Being privileged or not really makes no difference in the end, if you're introspective and willing to listen and learn from people who aren't, in order to figure out how privilege colours your perception of the world, and see past that when needed.
.

1. I have never heard "QUILTBAG" before.
2. What do you mean by " dominant majority that you and 90% of the assholes in the world happen to be part of"? Do you mean that 90% of people are not LGBTI or 10% are transgender? I assure you that I have read scientific studies that proved that virtually all women react physically to sexual imagery regardless of gender of the actors and self-defined orientation label. Also transsexuals comprise of fewer than 1/10000 of the population and other persons on the transgender spectrum still make up less than 1/1000 of the population. I also read a scholarly study that showed that all transsexuals have comorbid psychological issues or were born intersexed.
3. I don't like the term "cis" when applied to people. It might be because I study chemistry and biology or it might be some reason I am not fully aware of.
4. I know that I have male, white-presenting, (mostly) financially secure, western, and educated privileges and I try to use what little privileges I have to improve the world, especially for those who are Latin-American or disabled.

--Ocram

Always do your best.
Scholar
#11 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 5:16 PM
I think the question really being asked here is "Can a majority be discriminated against?" Obviously white people can be discriminated against if they live in/travel to a country (read; any continent other than North America or Europe) where being white isn't the norm, or even close to it.

Just call me Blake! :)
Hola, hablo español también - Hi, I speak Spanish too.
Top Secret Researcher
#12 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 5:39 PM
Quote: Originally posted by AzemOcram
1. I have never heard "QUILTBAG" before.
2. What do you mean by " dominant majority that you and 90% of the assholes in the world happen to be part of"? Do you mean that 90% of people are not LGBTI or 10% are transgender? I assure you that I have read scientific studies that proved that virtually all women react physically to sexual imagery regardless of gender of the actors and self-defined orientation label. Also transsexuals comprise of fewer than 1/10000 of the population and other persons on the transgender spectrum still make up less than 1/1000 of the population. I also read a scholarly study that showed that all transsexuals have comorbid psychological issues or were born intersexed.
3. I don't like the term "cis" when applied to people. It might be because I study chemistry and biology or it might be some reason I am not fully aware of.
4. I know that I have male, white-presenting, (mostly) financially secure, western, and educated privileges and I try to use what little privileges I have to improve the world, especially for those who are Latin-American or disabled.

--Ocram


1. Queer, Unsure, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans*, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay.
2. "Comorbid psychological issues"? You're saying that transexuality is a psychological issue? Also, reacting to sexual imagery does not make someone bisexual.
3. & 4. Who cares?
Field Researcher
#13 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 5:42 PM
Quote: Originally posted by BlakeS5678
I think the question really being asked here is "Can a majority be discriminated against?" Obviously white people can be discriminated against if they live in/travel to a country (read; any continent other than North America or Europe) where being white isn't the norm, or even close to it.


Yep.

That's why I specified "in the U.S.".

Queen of the Land of Typos.

Check out my simblr.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#14 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 6:51 PM
^Well, I wasn't solely referring to the US, I've never lived there, I don't know how it is. I'm referring to Romania and the internet (which is used mostly everywhere in the world). And no, about the Rromani, nobody is entitled to be mean (it appears I cannot use the term 'racist' in this context without being contradicted that it doesn't fit) against anyone else based on historical facts. I've yet to hear a Jewish person hate on Germans, for example. They can't do anything with that hate? Maybe not on a larger scale, but it's not really pleasant being laughed at on the street and being called 'bleach-face', for a lack of a better translation. Try living in Romania and then we'll talk. It's not like they're only discriminating against white people.

@AzemOcram, no, trans* people are NOT psychologically handicapped. I was intrigued by this matter back in 10th grade, and my Psychology Studies teacher handed me a book that covered a lot of matters related to the human mind. There was a chapter about sexual and gender identities, and it clearly stated that it's something in the DNA, a sequence or whatchamacallit (I don't remember correctly), and the book was written by a psychologist (again, I don't remember who), based on countless studies. Let's just not go there. Also, I'm not sure if the term 'cis' is widely acknowledged or if it's just internet slang (it doesn't exist in my language at least, and I haven't heard it outside the internet), but it's easier to type than 'people whose sex and gender coincide'.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#15 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 7:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
^Well, I wasn't solely referring to the US, I've never lived there, I don't know how it is. I'm referring to Romania and the internet (which is used mostly everywhere in the world). And no, about the Rromani, nobody is entitled to be mean (it appears I cannot use the term 'racist' in this context without being contradicted that it doesn't fit) against anyone else based on historical facts. I've yet to hear a Jewish person hate on Germans, for example. They can't do anything with that hate? Maybe not on a larger scale, but it's not really pleasant being laughed at on the street and being called 'bleach-face', for a lack of a better translation. Try living in Romania and then we'll talk. It's not like they're only discriminating against white people.


First of all, "try living in Romania"? No. You can't bring a topic to a worldwide forum then say "try living in Romania and then we'll talk". I specified the U.S. because it's where I live & the perspective that I'm coming from, but really. If we're gonna deal with this like that then there's no point in having this conversation here (unless everyone else is from Romania & I'm just the odd one out).

Secondly, I don't need to live in Romania to know of the experiences of the Rromani people. Not only am I friends with one, but the internet is a beautiful thing. So is empathy - have you tried it?

I didn't say their hate was right, but I did say it was justified. And it is. Them laughing at you & calling you bleach-face hurts your feelings & not much else. Again - I didn't say it was right, in fact, I called them prejudiced. But them calling you bleach-face will not affect you them same way as you calling them, say, g*psy would affect them. (Once more, for posterity - I am not saying that their hate & prejudice is right.)

But still, it's not the same.

As for them not only discriminating against white people, can I assume being called gadje hurts your feelings? Because, that's not an insult, y'know.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

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Alchemist
Original Poster
#16 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 7:21 PM Last edited by Rawra : 20th Jul 2014 at 7:34 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
First of all, "try living in Romania"? No. You can't bring a topic to a worldwide forum then say "try living in Romania and then we'll talk". I specified the U.S. because it's where I live & the perspective that I'm coming from, but really. If we're gonna deal with this like that then there's no point in having this conversation here (unless everyone else is from Romania & I'm just the odd one out).

Secondly, I don't need to live in Romania to know of the experiences of the Rromani people. Not only am I friends with one, but the internet is a beautiful thing. So is empathy - have you tried it?

I didn't say their hate was right, but I did say it was justified. And it is. Them laughing at you & calling you bleach-face hurts your feelings & not much else. Again - I didn't say it was right, in fact, I called them prejudiced. But them calling you bleach-face will not affect you them same way as you calling them, say, g*psy would affect them. (Once more, for posterity - I am not saying that their hate & prejudice is right.)

But still, it's not the same.

As for them not only discriminating against white people, can I assume being called gadje hurts your feelings? Because, that's not an insult, y'know.


I said try living in Romania referring to the Romanian Rromani people's attitudes, about which you are expressing your opinion without having experienced what I, personally, have to experience almost on a daily basis, which you would if you lived here, no matter if you're not white. And just for the record, they're actually being privileged here. They get special places in education, needing much lower grades than others to get to a well-ranked High School, they receive financial benefits from the government, special reports in the news, and so on and so forth. Despite those attempts meant as apologies for their treatment in the past, their behaviour is hardly nice towards people who aren't Rromani, and I'm not only talking about white people, again, but, since we are the majority in this country, we are the main target of their ridicule.

Maybe I would partly agree with you about black people in the US being justified for their lack of regard towards white people, maybe (although I would still call it racism). But Rromani people FROM Romania are in no way justified for anything. Nobody is discriminating them here, it's only a myth that they like to hold up proudly like a national flag, because it's convenient and because they receive special treatment if they find ways to cry racism and discrimination. My working hard to get good grades and get into a good High School and their getting in with no problem if they can prove their ethnicity is racism in its rawest form, it's discrimination and it's not helping their image in people's eyes and not changing their attitude in the very least. I've had three Rromani classmates who were relatively part of the 'popular kids' clique, and I just wish you could've heard their absurdly homophobic, transphobic, racist beliefs and jokes which included the f word, the n word, antisemitism, and pretty much anything that didn't match their identities. I'm not generalizing, although it might sound so, obviously that would be hypocritical of me being the supportive person I am (gosh that sounds faux-defensively), I'm just extremely angry that they get special rights and privileges, which I would ABSOLUTELY understand if they were poor, but all three classmates mentioned above came from wealthier families than me, for example.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#17 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 7:36 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
I said try living in Romania referring to the Romanian Rromani people's attitudes. And just for the record, they're actually being privileged here. They get special places in education, needing much lower grades than others to get to a well-ranked High School, they receive financial benefits from the government, special reports in the news, and so on and so forth. Despite those attempts meant as apologies for their treatment in the past, their behaviour is hardly nice towards people who aren't Rromani, and I'm not only talking about white people, again, but, since we are the majority in this country, we are the main target of their ridicule.


Reparations is an entirely other issue.
Here's the thing about hurting people - you don't get to decide how they heal. Now I'm not saying you (yourself) are hurting them but your ancestors hurt theirs and while you don't have to deal with the resulting fall out, they do.
They don't have to be nice to you. They don't owe anyone anything. While it's great that you're such an upstanding citizen, I don't have to live in Romania to know that not everyone views them in the same light. Documentaries, news features, personal anecdotes, all say the same thing - the Rromani people still deal with a crap ton of discrimination & racism & if they choose to heal by creating their own community then so be it. If they choose to heal by not accepting people outside of their community, they are not hurting YOU. You can't call their isolationism racism because it doesn't hurt you. The minority is protecting themselves against the majority. Boohoo.
For all the focusing on the good things they get, ask yourself why they formed such a tightknit community & what outsiders have done to that community that would make them reject them so.
You do not get to judge them on their reaction if you're not going to evaluate how they got to that point.

As for the part you edited on there, we can't possibly debate that. You could say literally anything about living in Romania with them & we can't debate that, because I'm not there. I can talk about what I've learned from the news and documentaries and speaking to friends but I can't debate your personal experiences.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

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Alchemist
Original Poster
#18 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 7:47 PM Last edited by Rawra : 20th Jul 2014 at 8:45 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
Reparations is an entirely other issue.
Here's the thing about hurting people - you don't get to decide how they heal. Now I'm not saying you (yourself) are hurting them but your ancestors hurt theirs and while you don't have to deal with the resulting fall out, they do.
They don't have to be nice to you. They don't owe anyone anything. While it's great that you're such an upstanding citizen, I don't have to live in Romania to know that not everyone views them in the same light. Documentaries, news features, personal anecdotes, all say the same thing - the Rromani people still deal with a crap ton of discrimination & racism & if they choose to heal by creating their own community then so be it. If they choose to heal by not accepting people outside of their community, they are not hurting YOU. You can't call their isolationism racism because it doesn't hurt you. The minority is protecting themselves against the majority. Boohoo.
For all the focusing on the good things they get, ask yourself why they formed such a tightknit community & what outsiders have done to that community that would make them reject them so.
You do not get to judge them on their reaction if you're not going to evaluate how they got to that point.


They have nothing to protect themselves against. Nobody is hurting them with anything. They're waaay better off than PoC in the US. They're the second most propagated minority in Romania, right after Hungarians. They make up quite a big amount of this country's population. They are not being discriminated against anymore, not by most people, not by the government. Their settlements are left untouched, they're being hired in institutions with no problem, they have representatives in the government, the president hung out with their self-proclaimed king, they have special rights, their traditional celebrations are always being shown on TV, they are asking for their language to be taught in schools in a country that has nothing to do with it, is that what discrimination is? Sign me up then.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Top Secret Researcher
#19 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 8:35 PM
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
Reparations is an entirely other issue.
Here's the thing about hurting people - you don't get to decide how they heal. Now I'm not saying you (yourself) are hurting them but your ancestors hurt theirs and while you don't have to deal with the resulting fall out, they do.
They don't have to be nice to you. They don't owe anyone anything. While it's great that you're such an upstanding citizen, I don't have to live in Romania to know that not everyone views them in the same light. Documentaries, news features, personal anecdotes, all say the same thing - the Rromani people still deal with a crap ton of discrimination & racism & if they choose to heal by creating their own community then so be it. If they choose to heal by not accepting people outside of their community, they are not hurting YOU. You can't call their isolationism racism because it doesn't hurt you. The minority is protecting themselves against the majority. Boohoo.
For all the focusing on the good things they get, ask yourself why they formed such a tightknit community & what outsiders have done to that community that would make them reject them so.
You do not get to judge them on their reaction if you're not going to evaluate how they got to that point.


The definition of racism I go by is as follows:

An act of prejudice regarding skin colour that affects the physical or mental state of another in a negative manner.

To me, this above post is an example of prejudice. You know nothing about the situation or beliefs that Rawra is in, yet you feel it necessary to blame them for their situation. I have never owned a slave, nor ever will, yet because someone who shared my skin colour did long before I was even born, I must bite my tongue when they try and pull the same sort of racism they accuse me of? Despite the fact that I don't care one whit about what colour their skin is?

Racism is a two-way street. As long as one person thinks they are better than another, just on the colour of their skin, and act upon it, to me that is racism. Most importantly, it's stupid, and stupidity is universal, regardless of their skin colour.

I would like to clear up the little matter of my sanity as it has come into question. I am not in any way, shape, or form, sane. Insane? Hell yes!

People keep calling me 'evil.' I must be doing something right.

SilentPsycho - The Official MTS2 Psycho
Field Researcher
#20 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:15 PM
Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
The definition of racism I go by is as follows:

An act of prejudice regarding skin colour that affects the physical or mental state of another in a negative manner.


That's great. That's YOUR definition. Professor Augie Fleras (who holds a degree in anthropology & teaches sociology) says racism is distinguishable from prejudice in both ideology and action, but also "consists of the power to put these beliefs into practice in a way that denies or excludes those who belong to a devalued category. The components of racism are often summarized in the popular equation: racism = prejudice + discrimination + power." ("Unequal Relations: An Introduction to Race, Ethnic, and Aboriginal Dynamics in Canada" - page 440, I believe).

So racism is more than just an act of prejudice & is dependent upon who's perpetuating it.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
To me, this above post is an example of prejudice. You know nothing about the situation or beliefs that Rawra is in, yet you feel it necessary to blame them for their situation.


But I didn't blame them? In fact, I said they probably didn't do anything. wut?

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
I have never owned a slave, nor ever will, yet because someone who shared my skin colour did long before I was even born, I must bite my tongue when they try and pull the same sort of racism they accuse me of? Despite the fact that I don't care one whit about what colour their skin is?


Not even. First of all, we still live with what your ancestors did. It's GREAT that you never owned slaves, but if you're saying that the descendants of slaves now have it equal & easy you're wrong. You're lying & you're wrong. (If that's not what you're saying then I fail to even see your point.)

Secondly, we can't perpetuate the same racism bc reverse racism is not even a thing. Like, seriously. Not once did I say people of color can't be mean & prejudice - in fact, I said they could & then said it was wrong like three times (as to avoid this situation). But, again, because of history we can't actually perpetuate the same racism.

Thirdly, tbh I really don't care what you do with what they're saying as long as you're not acting like your hurt feelings are the same thing as actual racism.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
stupidity is universal, regardless of their skin colour.


Now that's something we can agree upon.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

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Alchemist
Original Poster
#21 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:22 PM
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
That's great. That's YOUR definition. Professor Augie Fleras (who holds a degree in anthropology & teaches sociology) says racism is distinguishable from prejudice in both ideology and action, but also "consists of the power to put these beliefs into practice in a way that denies or excludes those who belong to a devalued category. The components of racism are often summarized in the popular equation: racism = prejudice + discrimination + power." ("Unequal Relations: An Introduction to Race, Ethnic, and Aboriginal Dynamics in Canada" - page 440, I believe).



Check out the Oxford Dictionary (or any language's dictionary for that matter). I believe that academically acknowledged definitions are more relevant than what people define words as. And if I am to go by your definition, a Hispanic, for example (because I already know the answer were I to not clearly mention the race), was being prejudiced against you, called you the n word or generally discriminating you in any form, you wouldn't care? You wouldn't consider it racism? I highly doubt it.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#22 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:35 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Rawra
Check out the Oxford Dictionary (or any language's dictionary for that matter). I believe that academically acknowledged definitions are more relevant than what people define words as. And if I am to go by your definition, a Hispanic, for example (because I already know the answer were I to not clearly mention the race), was being prejudiced against you, called you the n word or generally discriminating you in any form, you wouldn't care? You wouldn't consider it racism? I highly doubt it.


We can get into the degrees of racism if you want. We can get into colorism and anti-blackness & a bunch of other things I'm studying about now, if you really want to. That's the territory you're drifting into by taking the focus off of the answer & the facts I've presented and personalizing this debate.

Short answer? It wouldn't be the same as a white person calling me that. But you already knew that.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

Check out my simblr.
Top Secret Researcher
#23 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:39 PM
I added the definition as a starting point to explain my view on it. It is basically what I was taught at school, adapted by my own experiences and belief.

You told Rawra it was her ancestor's fault, that she deserved the abuse and treatment, which you don't know personally everything she has had to deal with, just because of her skin colour in comparison to others.

I have no clue what my ancestors did, nor do I really care. I am me, not them, and I treat everyone equally. I won't chew spoiled milk, moaning apologies for something I haven't done while burdening myself with stuff that happened centuries before I was born. There are much more important things to do with my life than worry about that.

So being treated like shit because of my skin colour isn't racism? So when a black customer screams at me, threatens me, and calls me racist for treating them exactly the same as I would everyone else, my feelings don't matter. When I get mocked for having an opinion on a sport just because I am white and female, my opinion really doesn't matter? I get told not to touch something in case my white skin contaminates it, it's okay and doesn't matter? Bullshit.

There is big racism, little racism, physical racism, mental racism, whatever. It is still racism, just in different forms, and it still hurts people in different ways, regardless of their skin colour.

I would like to clear up the little matter of my sanity as it has come into question. I am not in any way, shape, or form, sane. Insane? Hell yes!

People keep calling me 'evil.' I must be doing something right.

SilentPsycho - The Official MTS2 Psycho
Alchemist
Original Poster
#24 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:45 PM
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle

Short answer? It wouldn't be the same as a white person calling me that. But you already knew that.


Basically what you keep saying is that only white people can be racist, and only PoC can suffer from racism. That's not equality, what people claim to stand for when they have such beliefs.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#25 Old 20th Jul 2014 at 9:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
You told Rawra it was her ancestor's fault, that she deserved the abuse and treatment, which you don't know personally everything she has had to deal with, just because of her skin colour in comparison to others.


But I didn't *say* she deserved it. In fact, I said it was WRONG. I simply said what they're dealing with isn't racism & hurt feelings aside, we shouldn't call something out of it's name to legitimize it.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
There are much more important things to do with my life than worry about that.


There are more important things to you than to worry about it. For some of us? It's literally life or death. It's a matter of privilege & seeing past yours to recognize the realities of others.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
So being treated like shit because of my skin colour isn't racism?


Nope. It's prejudice, it's discrimination, it's wrong. But it's not racism because, as it's already been defined, racism isn't just one action or feeling. It's an institution.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
So when a black customer screams at me, threatens me, and calls me racist for treating them exactly the same as I would everyone else, my feelings don't matter.


I didn't say your feelings don't matter, I'm saying your hurt feelings don't constitute racism.

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
When I get mocked for having an opinion on a sport just because I am white and female, my opinion really doesn't matter?


Are you serious?

Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
I get told not to touch something in case my white skin contaminates it, it's okay and doesn't matter? Bullshit.


You keep putting words into my mouth. When did I say discrimination was OK? In fact, I can quote like six different times that I've said just the opposite. You're still conflating your hurt feelings with actual racism.

Queen of the Land of Typos.

Check out my simblr.
 
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