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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 7:34 AM
Default Is Spanking The Same As Beating?
It seems a lot of people think that spanking is exactly the same as beating. However, when I was a kid, I was spanked for misbehaving, talking back, stuff like that. I agree that spanking should never be so hard that it leaves marks or injures the child, but it should hurt enough to get the child's attention. Spanking shouldn't be done when the parent is angry, and the parents should always let their child know that they are the only ones who can hit him.

I believe my parents went overboard a few times when spanking, but still, if I hadn't been spanked, I would've thought that I could do whatever I wanted. I'm glad they taught me that the rules are for everyone - myself included.
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Instructor
#2 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 8:08 AM
I have never been spanked, I think. I have been slapped (obviously not hard enough to leave marks on my face or actually hurt me bad) a few times, but that was because I did or say really bad things. Once, I remember, I was doing math homework and I couldn't get a grip on it. I was very irritated so I asked my dad for help, since he is a math teacher. Turns out I was so mad that I basically screamed at him that math was pointless and the most shitty subject ever and stuff like that, that hurt him so he slapped me. I guess he immediately regretted it since he felt bad for days.
Later during my childhood/adolescence I would just get grounded or my mom wouldn't allow me to watch Tv or use a computer or stuff like that.
I think grounding and prohibitions can be 100 times more effective and potentially cruel than spanking/slapping, so I don't think I would ever slap or spank my children. I am not condemning my parents' choices, I just think it is rather pointless: mild violence can immediately make a child quiet but I highly doubt it would teach him/her anything. Plus I think the parent feels much more guilty than the child afterwards.

Me, me, me against them, me against enemies, me against friends, somehow they all seem to become one, a sea full of sharks and they all smell blood.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#3 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 8:49 AM
My parents tried three check mark demerits and three smiley face rewards and while that was good, plus the prohibition of popsicles for the day if I got three demerits, well, sometimes they had to spank. Evidently the spanking proved more effective because they eventually abandoned the reward/demerit system. If I sassed back I'd get a spanking on the butt or a slap in the face. My mom seemed to aim for the nose, though she said it was because I flinched. I don't think slapping the face is a good idea unless the offense is egregious enough. It's too easy to hit the nose or injure the eyes. The buttocks are a much safer place because they have no major arteries or tiny bones that could be broken when struck.

Parents who spank should always tell their children that if another adult spanks them, it's not right and the children should tell them if it happens. Children shouldn't think that it's okay for just any 'big person' to spank or hit them. Hell, one time when I was in the bakery with my mum, singing to myself while in the cart, we went by this older man that neither of us knew, and he slapped me across the face. I thought that I deserved it and I was being bad. If parents spank, they should always let their kids know that it's not okay for other adults or anyone else to hit them.

Just like parents can touch a child's private parts for absolutely necessary things like changing diapers, applying diaper rash ointment or help with the potty, they should be able to spank the child's buttocks hard enough to get his attention, but not hard enough to injure the body. Nobody else except someone authorized by the parents should do those things. If a parent goes overboard with spanking to the point that the child is bruised, injured or just terrified of the parent, then that is beating, and abuse.
Top Secret Researcher
#4 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 10:46 AM
No type of physical vioence is necessary unless it is used as an alert to let someone know they are in immediate danger. Millions of people were/are not spanked as children and yet still somehow know how to be good people.

Edit to add... people who try to justify corporal punishment often say that a parent should never do it when they are angry. That seems sadistic. Lack of impulse and/or self-awareness is more forgiveable than choosing to intentionally hurting your own child!

I wouldn't put a lot of effort into getting it transported.
Scholar
#5 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 2:37 PM
Jesus Christ.. Your parents can thank their lucky stars they don't live in my country. In Denmark corporal punishment isn't just looked down on - it's straight out illegal. And I think that's how it should be.

“I MAY BE A HOGWARTS STUDENT" Hargirid paused angrily. "BUT I AM ALSO A SATANIST!”
Falco - The original Prombat
Mad Poster
#6 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 3:20 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 20th Oct 2014 at 3:35 PM.
If you spank someone, you beat them. However it's done doesn't matter, whether it's a knotted fist, a flat hand, a book, or anything else for that matter. You inflict pain by hitting someone with something, and that's the same as beating someone up. Beating up/spanking a kid is even worse, because they can't defend themselves.

If parents have to resort to spanking, they really need to look at their parental skills. If the kid continues to misbehave even when using spanking as a punishment, then how on Earth can you say that the spanking is effective?

If you really love someone, would you spank them? Isn't that a really screwed-up thought? "I love you so much, but I don't like what you're doing right now, so I'm going to have to beat up up just a little." It doesn't sound right to me. I'd call it a violent relationship. (Of course, what adults do in their bedrooms is up to them - but that's when both of them are in on it). If one person hits and the other unwillingly recieves, then that's violence, no matter if it's kids or adults.

TotallyJW, it's illegal to spank kids in my country as well. And I'm all for that rule. In my opinion, it's very bad parenting to hit your kids no matter how illegal or legal it is.
Mad Poster
#7 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 3:42 PM
US law is very confused/confusing on this topic. In my state you can use corporal punishment as long as it doesn't leave a lasting red mark or bruise - but then if it does leave a red mark and a designated reporter like a teacher or a doctor happens to see it, you're in for a visit from DCF. So I don't know what's the point of using that disciplinary method when so many others are available. And it's not like it's particularly effective.
At the same time, it's against the law to strike an animal in my state - which is mind boggling to me. Striking an animal is abuse, but spanking a child is a parent's prerogative?
Test Subject
#8 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 9:22 PM
There is never an okay excuse to put your hands on a child in a harmful way. There are plenty of ways to punish a child without this method. It's disgusting that people's first instinct when a child does something wrong is to hit the child.
Mad Poster
#9 Old 20th Oct 2014 at 10:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
Parents who spank should always tell their children that if another adult spanks them, it's not right and the children should tell them if it happens. Children shouldn't think that it's okay for just any 'big person' to spank or hit them.


If it's not okay for all those other adults to spank kids, then why should it be okay for parents to do it? Just the thought should be a big, flashing warning sign in itself...

Besides, several of those who grow up thinking spanking their kids is okay will transfer this mindset to their own kids, and they'll transfer it to their kids. People growing up in violent homes or in homes where some forms of violence are allowed will have a higher risk of transferring it to their families. Not all of them, of course. There are some people who will eventually realize that it's not an okay way to treat their loved ones.
Theorist
#10 Old 21st Oct 2014 at 12:39 AM
Quote: Originally posted by simmer22
If it's not okay for all those other adults to spank kids, then why should it be okay for parents to do it? Just the thought should be a big, flashing warning sign in itself

For the same reasons it's okay to give your kid a bath, but it's pretty sketchy for other people to bathe your kids?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#11 Old 21st Oct 2014 at 5:26 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
For the same reasons it's okay to give your kid a bath, but it's pretty sketchy for other people to bathe your kids?


Exactly. It would be appropriate for a parent to bathe a child or even take a bath or shower with the child, but it would be entirely inappropriate for another adult - even an uncle, aunt or grandparent - to do that.

I believe that spanking can be done with tough love and an explanation as to why the parent is doing that. Sometimes physical correction is absolutely necessary, like when a child is reaching for a hot stove. A slap on the hand and a scolding is far less harmful than a burn that could result from contact with an extremely hot object. If a child is running out into the street, a swat to the butt is a lot better and less traumatizing than getting hit by a car and possibly being severely injured or killed.

If you guys disagree, I understand and respect your opinions. I just have a certain point of view about spanking, though I wouldn't be as strict or harsh as my parents were. I think they made a few mistakes, but they did the best they could and they were probably terrified that they were not doing enough to get me to behave.
Mad Poster
#12 Old 21st Oct 2014 at 10:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
I believe that spanking can be done with tough love and an explanation as to why the parent is doing that. Sometimes physical correction is absolutely necessary, like when a child is reaching for a hot stove. A slap on the hand and a scolding is far less harmful than a burn that could result from contact with an extremely hot object. If a child is running out into the street, a swat to the butt is a lot better and less traumatizing than getting hit by a car and possibly being severely injured or killed.


If my child (I don't have any kids at the moment, but I have a couple of young nephews) ran out in the streets, I would explain to them why it's wrong to run out in the street in a way the child on their age and level of maturity could understand, in a voice that told them I was serious. I would never give them a swat or a beating if they'd almost been killed. What good would that serve? Sounds even more traumatizing to me: "You almost got killed, so I'm going to swat you." The logic of that mindset just doesn't add up.

If I had an 7-10 year old very independent kid, I'd say to them that either they wait for me when crossing the street, or they would have to hold my hand until they'd learned how to act in traffic. That would be more than enough punishment, judging by how my oldest nephew would have taken it (he's barely nine, and already way past the 'holding hand' stage).

Physical correction is never neccessary when it comes to kids. There are more than enough ways to teach kids how to be well-behaved without sinking to the level of violence. If parents thinks it's neccessary, then they should look a bit closer on their methods.

Imagine your kid hits another kid. Your way to scold them is to hit them on their behind. How is the child going to learn that hitting someone is a bad thing, when you do it to them? No matter how well you explain this to them before or after the spanking, the act of hitting them is the complete opposite of what you're trying to teach them. If you say something, and do the opposite, you'll only serve to confuse the poor kid - "It's okay for me to hit you, but you should never hit someone else."

If the very act of spanking is meant to scare the kid from misbehaving, then you're acting on their fear for you, not their respect for you. Personally, I'd never come to respect someone who hit me. Fear might be a good motivator if you want people to avoid bad behavior and be afraid of the consequences, but respect makes people want to do good for the person they have respect for.

The golden rule comes to mind here. Treat your kids the way you'd wanted to be treated if the roles were switched. Kids test their limits constantly, and it's not always misbehaving. Sometimes, kids just don't know better. Some kids have to be told once, other must be told a hundred times. Might have something to do with the way they're being told not to do it. Teach them to be able to think for themselves, so they'll grow up to be kind and responsible adults. Teach them that their actions have other consequences than a slap on the behind.

Try to involve the kids in the thought process. Don't just tell them, but let them try to think things through, and follow up with more questions. "What do you think happens if you do so-and-so..." That way the kids will be able to come to conclusions on their own. Should work as soon as the kids have enough words to carry a simple conversation (3+), and it's much better learning than "If you do that, I'll have to spank you." Even smaller kids understand consequences. "If you don't stop beating your sister with that toy, I'll take away the toy, and crying won't give you the toy back."

If you're scared they'll be run over by a car, then tell them straight out what can happen without scaring them too much (yes, kids should know that they can be run over by a car and gethurt if they run our into the streets without looking, but they don't need to know about all the blood and gore). Teach them traffic rules, and give them something to practice (such as look both ways, traffic signs, wait for the cars to stop, use a bike helmet), and eventually they'll learn, and do it on autopilot. Even if you have to remind them a hundred times, and even if you feel frustrated at times, they'll soon enough be the ones to remind you.
Lab Assistant
#13 Old 21st Oct 2014 at 7:44 PM
Spanking is very different from beating someone up. There are times when corporal punishment is appropriate and times when it is not.

--Ocram

Always do your best.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#14 Old 21st Oct 2014 at 8:31 PM Last edited by JDacapo : 21st Oct 2014 at 9:07 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by simmer22
If my child (I don't have any kids at the moment, but I have a couple of young nephews) ran out in the streets, I would explain to them why it's wrong to run out in the street in a way the child on their age and level of maturity could understand, in a voice that told them I was serious. I would never give them a swat or a beating if they'd almost been killed. What good would that serve? Sounds even more traumatizing to me: "You almost got killed, so I'm going to swat you." The logic of that mindset just doesn't add up.


What if none of the accepted discipline methods work? What if no matter how much I scold and explain and lecture until I'm blue in the face, and no matter how much I ground him or take away his favourite things, he still disobeys and talks back? Do I just disown him?

Edit: And by the way, do you guys think washing a kid's mouth out with soap for things like cussing or back-talk is alright?
Mad Poster
#15 Old 22nd Oct 2014 at 12:06 AM Last edited by simmer22 : 22nd Oct 2014 at 12:19 AM.
Then you need to work on the respect bit. Spanking him won't help. If it hasn't done anything to change the kid up until now, it won't work in the future, either. Time to find new methods, and to do those methods the right way. There are a billion ways to do timeouts, but not all will work, particularly if you do those small errors you might not even think about. For instance, if you give the child too much attention during the timeout, it's spoiled, because they'll resort to attention-seeking behavior.

Washing a kid's mouth with soap is about just as bad as spanking. Depending on the soap, there's stuff in it that kids shouldn't swallow, and it could even be outright dangerous. It certainly isn't healthy. Soap is for hands, not mouths. And quite frankly, it's disgusting behavior on the parent's side.

Where I live, things like spanking and soap-washing mouths could actually be enough reason for notifying child welfare authorities.

Have you ever watched the British version of Supernanny? She's had parents that do the soap washing and the spanking before, and waddayaknow? When the parents stopped using those methods and started using her methods (correctly, that is), their kids stopped the bad behavior. In almost every case I've seen, the parents are more at fault than the kids are. I have yet to see an episode of that show where they haven't had to do something about the parents before they could even try to do something about the kids. When she weans parents off bad behavior, she helps weaning the kids off the bad behavior in almost the same go. And some of those kids were pretty darn awful beasts when she started out (and some of the parents were much, much worse...) and still, most of those families apparently turned out quite well.

It's scary what some parents actually think is alright to do to their own kids. Some might have gotten the same treatment when they were young, but still - we live in 2014, and some things that were okay to do 50 years ago are not okay to do now.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#16 Old 22nd Oct 2014 at 9:59 AM
What kinds of methods did Supernanny use? And how did she make the kid magically stay seated during his time out? What are the consequences of getting up? As for swallowing soap, my parents never made me swallow it and they washed my mouth out for a damn good reason - I was maybe two or three and was putting some stuff in my mouth that could have had lots of very dangerous bacteria, and they were cleaning out my mouth to wash the germs out and discourage me from putting dirty things in my mouth. They never made me chew or swallow the soap, and I think going that far is very abusive.
Mad Poster
#17 Old 22nd Oct 2014 at 12:41 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 22nd Oct 2014 at 9:56 PM.
You don't need hand-soap to wash out germs from the mouth. Good old water will do that.
And if the kid is 2-3 years old they're still a bit too young to know what's safe to put in their mouth. Soap is not safe.

Supernanny's methods are, among other things, to teach the parents how to let the kids know they're serious. They often spend a great deal of time with the timeout business, but once the parents manage to stick to the rules, the kids eventually figure out that mommy or daddy won't let them go easy, and eventually sits through the whole timeout. It also ends up discouraging the kids from trying again. The thing is, the methods actually end up working.
Scholar
#18 Old 22nd Oct 2014 at 9:24 PM
This is very fascinating.. In my country no one would admit to approving of beating spanking children, and "washing their mouth with soap" is used only as an empty threat against kids who swear. I actually had no idea people actually do something like that...
Sorry if I'm being provocative, but this is genuinely surprising.

I have a question for you pro-spankers. What is your stance on stepparents? Should they be allowed to hit their kids as well? Or would you say it depends on what age the kids were when they entered into the family?

“I MAY BE A HOGWARTS STUDENT" Hargirid paused angrily. "BUT I AM ALSO A SATANIST!”
Falco - The original Prombat
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#19 Old 23rd Oct 2014 at 3:31 AM
Either way can be a slippery slope. As for step-parents, I don't think spanking is wise unless that parent was married to the child's father since the child was a baby or a toddler. For me, I look back at all those times I got spanked and they seem like those parental dick-moves you hate until you reach your thirties. I've seen those videos of rude kids, including that brat who slapped his mum in the face, and then I would thank my parents for disciplining me. They weren't perfect, but they did the best they could.
Alchemist
#20 Old 23rd Oct 2014 at 4:47 AM
I've personally come to conclude that the effectiveness of spanking has to do with the child moreso than the adult in question.
I was spanked as a kid. You know what I learned? I learned to be sneakier about doing what I wanted to do. I didn't stop doing it, I just stopped being obvious about it. And I learned to be an amazing liar. It reminds me of how they thought that locking things up would keep me from getting to them...guess who figured out how to pick locks? (This actually came in handy though, as one time my brother was hospitalized and we didn't have the key to his house, so I had to pick his locks to get in so I could tend to his pets who needed to be fed/let outside.)
My brothers on the other hand, were also spanked. They fell in line afterward, so I suppose that makes me the weird one. Either way, the only thing spanking really told me was that my parents were bigger and stronger than me and didn't have problems with inflicting pain on me if they didn't like what I was doing.
It'd be the teenage years when they learned to brush up on their negotiation skills. I was much easier to reason with than I was to "put into my place".

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#21 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 12:52 AM
Well, some parents just don't care and won't do anything to correct their children. I've seen it on shows like Dr. Phil where this disrespectful kid was talking to his mum like she was a kid and he was the adult, and it escalated to the point where he slapped her in the face. She wasn't the type who would spank her kid, but he took it as permission to be an asshole to his mother. I was shocked at this display of utter contempt for a parent.
Alchemist
#22 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 7:06 AM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
Well, some parents just don't care and won't do anything to correct their children. I've seen it on shows like Dr. Phil where this disrespectful kid was talking to his mum like she was a kid and he was the adult, and it escalated to the point where he

Those shows intentionally hype up the drama. That isn't to say there aren't any real kids or parents out there like that, just...take that sort of thing with a grain of salt.

Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
slapped her in the face. She wasn't the type who would spank her kid, but he took it as permission to be an asshole to his mother. I was shocked at this display of utter contempt for a parent.

But there's a difference between heeding your parent's wishes out of fear and heeding them out of respect. If you're stopping or performing a behavior that you know your parent wants/doesn't want you to do, because you're scared or anticipating getting hit for it, you're not respecting your parent, you're fearing them. And if you fear them, you might curb your behavior in their presence, but as soon as you know they won't find out, you'll disrespect them in all the ways you can't do it to their face. Or at the very least, still do it in your head. That's the thing about learning: When the lesson can be open to interpretation, it can easily become the wrong message.
Especially when you consider that children operate on a much more base, direct, and simple level than the adult does. The adult knows the why of things; The child only knows the that of things.
Plus, not all parents deserve to be respected or should be listened to. Being a parent isn't about having your own little slave to boss around, it's supposed to be about protecting and guiding the next generation into successful personhood. Personally, spanking always struck me as an intimidation tactic that took the easy way out of communicating with your kid (And teaches them that violence can be used to solve a frustrating situation), and if you're so much older and wiser, it shouldn't be beyond your scope of creativity to figure out something other than hitting the smaller, defenseless, unwise person.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#23 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 12:09 PM
I know that not all parents deserve respect, and I believe that respect should be earned. I also detest parents who think children are their slaves. As for disciplining the kids, I really hope that these alternative methods are near-infallible. If I ever have a child, I want to raise him to be respectful and obedient. I don't want to get reports about him bullying others and breaking the law.
Alchemist
#24 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 4:43 PM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
I know that not all parents deserve respect, and I believe that respect should be earned. I also detest parents who think children are their slaves. As for disciplining the kids, I really hope that these alternative methods are near-infallible. If I ever have a child, I want to raise him to be respectful and obedient. I don't want to get reports about him bullying others and breaking the law.

The trouble with unwavering obedience is that, while that may be well and good for the child's being, it becomes a problem when they grow up and you're no longer in the picture. If you train a person to constantly be looking to others for how they should be behaving, reacting, or acting, then you take away their autonomy and stifle their self-expression to an extent. I would want a child that was respectful, but exercised critical thinking and did what they thought was right to do. But I understand how scary trusting your child's judgement can be for parents, especially ones who have poor opinions of their child's decision-making capability. Nobody got better at making decisions through obedience, though. I would think the ideal parent would want to wean their child off of accepting their decisions in place of their own and teach them how to make good decisions for themselves, especially given this next bit...

The hardest lesson to learn about the world today, it seems, is that nobody else will love you and want the best for you the way your parents do/did. You can expect nobody else to be looking out for you the way they have. Even authority figures can be corrupt or self-serving....perhaps especially authority figures. And I mean, I can name a lot of lawsuits that would never have happened if people had at least taught that generation of children that advertisers don't give a flying rats ass about their health or well-being.


As for bullying specifically, I'm pretty sure the degree of structure with which you're being raised as well as the degree of teaching and learning that's going on under that roof have a lot more to do with preventing bullying than simply being a disciplined or undisciplined kid. Bullying is an incorrect way to vent frustration, but it does point to the presence of frustration great enough that it needs to be vented. There's always a source for that kind of thing, and it's up to the "wiser" adults to figure that out. Just as we can't expect dogs to walk on two legs and drive cars and speak English like us humans, we can't expect kids to be able to articulate the source of their bad behavior properly.
And sometimes the law can be stupid, or highly arbitrary, or the kid could just be ignorant of the law's existence. These are the differences between "grown-up" concerns and the concerns of a child. The adult thinks of the consequences and tries to understand the situation fully before acting, but the child has no real concept of these ideas yet, so they can't make informed decisions until they are informed. And even then, chances are, they will make the wrong decision. Did you really expect an underdeveloped human to posses the same rationality and intelligence as a fully developed human? Did you really expect that you wouldn't have to make any personal adjustments or put any real effort into teaching something? I would say, don't have a child if you're not prepared to be at least some degree of flexible and forgiving. Get a puppy. Get a robot. Get something that will not be a person and won't disappoint you.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Versigtig, ek's nog steeds fokken giftig
Mad Poster
#25 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 6:41 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 24th Oct 2014 at 7:03 PM.
A much better way to raise kids is to teach them to think things through before they do anything. That way you'll get kids who do the right thing because it's right, not because someone tells them to. They'll also be much less likely to be influenced by others in bad ways. If kids learn to ask "why am I doing this?" - then it's much more likely they'll grow up to be better people than if they never question their actions.

Obedient people will do what's easy, not what is right. It's much easier to follow orders, than to question them. Leaders will often find those obedient people and turn them toward their own goals. The leader will find the weakest links and make them obey, and then go after the less weak people, and scare the shit out of them so they too are afraid of not obeying. And that's often when bad things start to happen. Bullying, wars, religious cults, you name it.

You don't see obedient people in the forefront of rebellions. The people in the front are usually the strong ones who can think for themselves, and dare to question the other party's motives. That be in world wars or in the school grounds. If you don't want your kid to be a bully, teach then the difference between right and wrong, and teach them to question their own actions, and the actions of others.

Obedience can create cruelty. Don't believe me? Look up the "Milgram experiment" on Youtube. Here's a more modern recreation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
(and that's just what you can get adults to accept if they're under pressure from authority figures).
 
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