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Creator Theme: Space! - posted on 8th Jul 2018 at 6:02 PM
Replies: 99 (Who?), Viewed: 3659 times.
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Theorist
#26 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 11:42 AM
Not true. Term "casual gamer" or "casual player" only implies that such person does not care for complexity of the game, and would like it more simple and less challenging. That's what it means in gaming culture at least.

And another thing. If those fans are casual about any other game but sims 4, by your definition, wouldn't that mean that they are more likely to defend Sims 4 because it's the only game they are not casual about? I talked with a lot of people who enjoy TS4, and they play the other Sims games casually, Sims 4 religiously almost. And it's their thing, they enjoy TS4 for what the other games does not allow them, which I stated in my last post here.
Still does not change that indeed Sims audience is mostly casual gamer demography (by current and general gaming culture standards) which is not casual only about The Sims (which is also discussable) and that TS4 is less complex than it predecessors.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#27 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 12:24 PM
Then maybe they need to update their demographics to take into account that many people they included in their casual gamer demography are not casual gamers at all. Unless there is a basic bias that says "we won't count sims players as anything but casual since sims is a casual game". To be quite blunt about this, with all the "free" games you can play, why would someone casual invest the large amount required to play The Sims PC game?

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Theorist
#28 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:11 PM
Look at the response on their media reveals and overall responses to TS4. It might be mixed, but overall, the 'positive' voices are greatly outnumbering the 'negative' ones. The ones that are critically oriented towards the game are just more vocal, but not in greater numbers.

As long as this formula works financially for them, they will continue to use it and improve it. It's not just the sims 4 thing. That's where whole gaming industry is headed. Casual gamers are the majority of the customer end of gaming industry, with the market for such games ever increasing in potential, it would be so the industry accomodates to them, and it's apparent. And not just accomodate, but EA's taking it a bit further by using it's knowledge of their demography to utilize financial values of their customers to produce even more income. It's blatantly obvious.

And they would never be up front about their business decisions and models. It's a corporation. Those just don't reveal tehnical details that make their business work and earn them money. I know I wouldn't, unless I'm pasionate about it.

Gaming industry has long ago became a boring business scheme and not fun as it used to be when it started. The Sims 4 is just one of many little stories of games shifting focus to accomodate to current demand in this era of history of video gaming, which makes it's case way less special and unique. But it's also one of the biggest franchises and games in the gaming history, so it should be special and unique. But sadly, it isn't. This has been done before. And is going to become more often and apparent.

EDIT: To answer your last question, because apparently I jumped over it completely... They would give large amounts of money just because they can. Just because The Sims is appealing and one of a kind. There is no other game like that on the market, EA has all the monopoly.
Lab Assistant
#29 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:14 PM
I don’t see why the term casual gamer is a negative . It is what it is. (Referring to when Deli kept saying “stop saying casual gamer!”

But I’m not here to debate the meaning of the phrase either. That was my take on it, if I’m wrong, I’m wrong, I’ve never thought to apply labels to people or give it a definition until just now. We all play games at the end of the day.

Sims 4 does appeal to many who are happy with the simplicity of the game, who are happy that we don’t have burglars, that sims don’t die as easily, that fires are less destructive etc .Just the same there are fans who don’t mind that features have been removed and there are some that are more than happy with the status quo of the game and are happy with the current model for dlc. Not everyone is happy with that (myself included)
I do think those are the fans that EA target.
Theorist
#30 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:24 PM
But don't be negative goldbear. They still are trying to appease to the old fans, at least from recently. Tho with restrictions they've put on themselves, It's obviously going to be hard for them because we do indeed demand much more, since we already have it with the older games.

However, I'm recently starting to wonder, why are we even demanding stuff when we indeed have older games? Are we not fully statisfied with them? But that's how it is, nobody ever will be fully statisfied with anything ever. I'm kinda glad I realised this recently and am more at peace around all this TS4 fiasco, and more open to the franchise dying so that it can be reborn, than having it's corpse dragged around dressed in gucci and jewels.

However, I'm not at peace when I see that it's not only TS4 but where everything considering games is headed. And that makes me wonder if we will ever have good games in the future. :/
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#31 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:26 PM
I think the reason people who are confirmed simmers don't like being thought of as casual is because they worry that if EA is thinking of them that way, and being supported in that attitude by member s of the wider gaming community, they are not going to give the game the attention to make it deep and intense as they would if they knew they were programming for players who were going deeply and intensely into it! It is the idea that simmers are "casual" that probably explains why the game has become shallower and more superficially entertaining ("quirky")

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Theorist
#32 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:33 PM
Indeed. Will never made his games for 'casual' gamers. His games were never formally considered games, but toys to play with, and he himself actually thought of them as complex systems that in fun way educated people and inspired minds. He loved that shit (pardon my words). But in public eyes, sims has always been played by 'mostly female adiences' or is 'the game for little kids'. It never got serous reputation Will wanted all his games to have, and at the end of the day, EA also played big role in that. That's why he left EA himself. And that's why we have what we have now. EA wanted this and boom in the casual market demand further motivated them to do it.
Lab Assistant
#33 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 1:33 PM
I’m not being negative. I’m not asking EA for anything in terms of dlc. I have seasons but I don’t play the sims 4 much anymore. I think the ship has sailed for it ever becoming my favourite over 2 and 3 and I have accepted it will never be as good as those. That’s okay.

What I want from EA with the sims 4 is never going to happen. I want complexity, I want relationships to mean something and my sims to have some kind of attraction system. I want a break from the utopia of the sims 4 worlds where even lightning strikes don’t kill you. I want sims with personality and to feel like unique characters. I want consequences that mean something and aren’t moodlets.

After almost four years I’m not hopeful anymore.
Lab Assistant
#34 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 4:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixa97sr
But don't be negative goldbear. They still are trying to appease to the old fans, at least from recently. Tho with restrictions they've put on themselves, It's obviously going to be hard for them because we do indeed demand much more, since we already have it with the older games.

However, I'm recently starting to wonder, why are we even demanding stuff when we indeed have older games? Are we not fully statisfied with them? But that's how it is, nobody ever will be fully statisfied with anything ever. I'm kinda glad I realised this recently and am more at peace around all this TS4 fiasco, and more open to the franchise dying so that it can be reborn, than having it's corpse dragged around dressed in gucci and jewels.

However, I'm not at peace when I see that it's not only TS4 but where everything considering games is headed. And that makes me wonder if we will ever have good games in the future. :/

Yes we are, which is why we still play those games. That tells us absolutely nothing about Sims 4 though. Sims 4 is a big boy now, it should stand on its own two feet and it doesn't in many ways. People panicked by the mere thought the game could stop because it wasn't finished yet. Almost four years in! I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 about Sims 3, "but the game's not finished yet". And that was before they had released IP and ITF.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#35 Old 7th Jul 2018 at 8:18 PM Last edited by thevogel : 8th Jul 2018 at 6:53 PM.
What I've read and seen, from all the simmers on several forums...not just this one... And that is that TS4 is done. Yes EA is going to continue to pump out DLC for it... good, bad, redundant. But for me.... it was done at Release. If I had not played the game at all, and bought some of the DLC for it, then I couldn't make that kind of statement. TS4 is not really a Sims game to me. It's a empty version of a sims game that is broken and really can't be fixed or filled up. I don't care how many DLCs and crap they pump out for it.... the game is always going to be shallow.

Look at TS2 and TS3... these are version of this franchise that could have kept going.... The engines would have had to be updated, and the issues of bugs or routing issues fixed...but yes... those versions still have stories to tell, and have life to them. TS4 has none of that...from the beginning it had none of that. Yes I'm primarily a builder...but I do enjoy actually playing the game too. If all the gameplay offers is a series of tasks and no consequence, no life to a game that is supposed to be a life simulator...then what's the point?

EA took away the some of the best things about this game, simply to make money. And the crazy thing about that is... if they had just continued where they left off with TS3 (improved graphics, fix the routing, bugs, add improved mechanics to prevent lag) That game would have made them thousands more than what it initially did. They kinda shot themselves in the foot with TS4. they want the money, but they don't want to do what is necessary to make the game really playable and competitive with the current gaming market. EA really did ruin The Sims. they ruined the entire experience of what The Sims is and was.
#36 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 9:29 AM Last edited by SneakyWingPhoenix : 9th Jul 2018 at 10:14 AM.

Didn't watch it, paused at a few seconds and just reading the comments and lol everybody gang up on her, as in disproving her invalid
claims. Haven't watch her video yet (and I'm kinda hesitant to for obvious reasons), but damn that like-dislike ratio on Optimus new video. That's saying something.... maybe. I have to watch it to get the full picture.

ETA: Nevermind on that dislike ration, since she has a bigger following than Optimus. Though the comment section on her video is no different from his, which is quite considering people putting an awareness that she isn't all that right.

Disclaimer: Underscored-spaces (like_this) in my replies/text may bother you. Space key (or shall I say button, since there's a lack of it and lost) is broken. For my own convenience, I have no choice but to utilize though.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Theorist
#37 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 10:49 AM
Firstly, I watched his videos, and both of them did not do their research and it's obvious he does not play the sims game he is talking about enough and that she is overly biased because she does not even pay for the DLC she gets. However, I'm with him on this second video just because he was respectful and she had no reason or right to just jump in and defend EA and The Sims except for the views and her relationship with EA. She also deliberately cut his video where he explains what he means by his wrong terminology: "casual players" just so that she can use it as she wants to support her claims and reaction. This whole 'reaction' video was a bad move on her side... really bad move.
Theorist
#38 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 1:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deligracy
I just wanted to pop in and make it clear I am not paid by EA to defend the sims or their company. Yes, I am part of the EA game changer program (like many YouTubers) but this doesn’t come with any expectation to speak a certain way about the game. There are no restrictions in terms of reviews or threats of being “kicked out”. That’s simply not true and not part of the program. I give both positive and negative reviews about the game, they aren’t sugar coated to be on EAs good side. I think this is an interesting discussion I wanted to chime in on so I don’t mind if there’s some controversy around it in the comments.


Interesting response by Deligracy.

I would however argue that the Game Changer Program does influence the way Youchubers critique the series. Even if they're not paid, it's about getting early copies and getting flown to game events vs being left out in the cold like LGR.
Theorist
#39 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 1:14 PM
I still wonder, if there are no restrictions in terms of reviews or threats of being "kicked out" then why did they "kick out" Clint? Why did they stop sending him free early review copies? He's been with EA way longer than Deligracy is, so why?
Lab Assistant
#40 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 1:51 PM
Clint was never a game changer so no need to kick him out.

The game changers say they can be honest but given that one of them told me that he agreed that my first pet was a shameless cash grab, his review was nothing like that. Just five minutes of what sounded like a script he read off. (And his reviews are never like that) they normally does a review for CAS, build and buy and game play. Clearly they are concerned about the impact of leaving a less than glowing review. As one game changer told me recently, their job is to hype up the game.

Deligracy was a bit foolish making that video, I don’t mean she isn’t entitled to her opinion of course she is. But I don’t think someone that is receiving all the dlc for free (particularly someone with a young fan base) should be defending their dlc practises.

I also think it was quite manipulative of Deli to edit the original video in the way she did. She made it sound like he was calling all sims players casual gamers as if that were an insult, she did miss the point that the sims 4 is a casual game and If that bothers her, that’s on her. To edit out where he specifically says there is nothing wrong with being a casual gamer and also where he points out the cost of the sims 4 and all dlc is underhand. Deli isn’t going to bite the hand that feeds her, her channel is 99% sims.

She can say (as can any of the game changers) that their views are their views but because they receive the product for free, that makes them biased. It’s very easy to sit there and say “oh sims 1-3 did this with dlc” when you don’t pay for the dlc yourself. And also as actually pointed out, what the previous titles did, doesn’t make it okay for the current title to do.

My Husband is a game developer, if I told you that his games are worth it, would you automatically trust my judgement? No. And I don’t expect anything different.
Department of Post-Mortem Communications
#41 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 3:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jje1000
(...)
I would however argue that the Game Changer Program does influence the way Youchubers critique the series. Even if they're not paid, it's about getting early copies and getting flown to game events vs being left out in the cold like LGR.
... which can count as being paid by being given the advantage over others to monetise that privilege. Losing that privilege = losing money. It's that simple. If she got kicked out of the program and were forced to buy the things like everybody else (i.e. much later) by the time she had her videos ready the game changers will already have moved onwards, guides will have been written by Carl's and SimsVIP and a sizable portion of her audience will lose interest in what that late-comer has to say - with noticeable consequences for her ad revenue.
LGR has the advantage that he was already somebody before that yib sims/influencer/game changer crap began to work its poison. How would she survive though?
dodgy builder
#42 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 3:27 PM
i feel slightly insultet by the casual thing. EA has decided it to be casual, not the players. They decide who should by it and therefore decide for it to be casual, but the gamers might be very different. They have very little history in listening to consumers, so they don't really care. It's all their decition.

As a builder I would very much like more complex construction, because frankly where will I find something similar, and because there is a vaste territory between architecural programs and games, open for gameprograms like Sims.
Theorist
#43 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:00 PM
Uhhh... have you watched the second video? He says that he by no means tries to insult the casual gamers and just states the fact that The Sims has always been a casual game, with playerbase that usually plays casual games. He never said that people play The Sims casually, and he by that video even acknowledged how much The Sims playerbase is actually invested in the game itself.

EDIT: Why do some people have two creator badges? I just noticed.

EDIT_2: I'm a casual gamer and I acknowledge it. I feel out of my comfort zone when it comes to playing a game that involves higher levels of skill and steep learning proccess. I mostly never play those. But I really don't feel insulted by it. Why would I be?
Top Secret Researcher
#44 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:29 PM
The definition of "casual gamer" - so fluid. One poster over on the Paradox forums is insisting all of *their* games are "too casual"! (I laughed and laughed when I saw it.)
Theorist
#45 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:32 PM
All of the paradox games are too casual? Do they not know what a strategy game is?
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#46 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldbear
I also think it was quite manipulative of Deli to edit the original video in the way she did.t.


No it wasn't. Everyone was free to watch the guy's original video. We'd have been bored if we had to sit through the entire thing again just so Deligracy could comment in a couple of places!

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Lab Assistant
#47 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
No it wasn't. Everyone was free to watch the guy's original video. We'd have been bored if we had to sit through the entire thing again just so Deligracy could comment in a couple of places!


But they didn’t clearly as many visited his channel to call him out on it. Had she actually kept his words in context, there would have been no need for him to have to make a right of reply video. By omitting what he actually said and meant it gave a very different perspective.
Theorist
#48 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldbear
By omitting what he actually said and meant it gave a very different perspective.


Media Spin 101, I'm surprised people haven't heard of it.
Lab Assistant
#49 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:55 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with everything @Goldenbear has said thus far. Looking through my very short posting history will reveal that I am admittedly not the biggest TS4 fan on the block and will often mock it. But after Seasons and C&D came out, I decided to take a leap and try out the "full" game with all DLCs and a lot of gameplay-enhancing/quality-of-life mods. No expectations, just enjoy the game for what it is.

The most disappointing thing to me was how small of a change in mechanics I felt going from only owning the base game and one game pack to having everything pushed out by EA to date. It's been four years. A lot of the new features felt like reskinned events from previous BG/EPs/GPs, and the parenting skill that came with Parenthood feels like it was something that should have been implemented in the base game proper rather than getting its own pack. The illnesses that came from GTW were poorly-implemented and I grew tired of my sims getting randomly sick and unable to go see a doctor to get medicine for it (even if they could only implement it as an off-screen event). I understand they can purchase medicine on the computer and I'm sure there are mods that fix diseases, but it's ridiculous to me that this foolishness was allowed to persist in a DLC pack. I haven't even noticed any changes in my sims' every day lives yet regarding the Bowling, Jungle Adventures, and whatever other DLCs I got that weren't GTW, GT, Seasons, Parenthood, or C&D. I've had lots of fun with Spa Day but my sims don't even roll wants to get pampered at the spa when tense - I just kinda force them into it.

Anyways, I know this rant was kind of aimless and for that I apologize. And I realize that TS4 should be judged on its own merits, which is what I've tried to do over the last couple of weeks that I've played it. Unfortunately, I feel that that it doesn't live up to its own hype (for me) even after installing a bunch of CC and mods and ignoring the Sims title entirely. TS4 seems like a good filler game for when I don't want to pay too much attention to what's going on (it's great for migraine gaming unlike TS2, where I play on a self-imposed rotation and try to take notes of what's happening with each family), and honestly? I wouldn't pay more than $100 for the base game and all of its DLCs thus far, and that's me being incredibly generous since I feel like it's not worth more than $60. And yet here we are, where it's being priced at least nine times more than that. I'm just glad that I didn't lose my money over this.

Lurking since 10/2/07 ~ Call me Cheezy. ;)
Tumblr: http://mmmcheezy.tumblr.com/
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#50 Old 9th Jul 2018 at 4:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldbear
But they didn’t clearly as many visited his channel to call him out on it
Not her fault people prefer to yell at someone than find out some facts first!

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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