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Original Poster
#1 Old 10th Dec 2018 at 5:49 PM Last edited by Naus Allien : 10th Dec 2018 at 6:08 PM.
Default 100% Lag-Free Open World: The Sim Medieval and the potential of The Sims 3
I've been playing a lot of Medieval recently and I noticed something amazing. The Sims Medieval is an open world Sims game with ABSOLUTELY no lag whatsoever. At least on my computer the game runs way better than The Sims 3 and completely, 100% lag-free. Even Create-A-Style is faster and lag-free. Considering the fact Medieval runs on The Sims 3 engine, this is something truly mesmerizing to experience.

I recorded a video showcasing Medieval's gameplay as well as the 100% lag-free open world:


I know most of us have managed to improve The Sims 3's performance and make it playable and enjoyable, but Medieval runs fine (better than TS3 ever will) out of the box.

Some things I noticed while playing Medieval:
- Obvious graphic improvements compared to The Sims 3. Character models are way better proportioned and new features such as subsurface scattering make them look better than in any other Sims game. And reddit agrees with me.
- Animations are more fluid and the transition between animations is smoother. You'll notice it when Sims walk up the stairs, and even when they're socializing. The end of one interaction and the beginning of another is not very noticeable.
- Routing is almost perfect. I think there was only one routing failures in the whole video (a guy at the church), and no stuck Sims in the world. It probably helps that Medieval has a smaller world than TS3, but they definitely did a better job at painting routable and unroutable terrain. There are still some quirks here and there, like my monarch Sim choosing to go to her bedroom to eat (when there were chairs available in the dining room).
- Not only routing is better but Sims seem to be able to dodge each other (55:10) and they don't need as much space to perform actions.
- 100% Lag-Free Open world. Game run at full 60 FPS at all times. Simulation run at full speed at all times even on Ultra Speed. AI was running at full speed at all times (Sims were doing things at all times).
- No textures popping in? I know it takes 1 second to load the interior of a building but I didn't see any texture popping in the way it does in TS3.
- Create-A-Style is 100% lag-free. I don't show it off too much here (38:50), but CASt works super smooth. It probably helps that there are less patterns, but there's certainly an improvement overall compared to The Sims 3.
- Probably a side-effect of the world being rather small, but I love the fact there are Sims everywhere (and most of them have interesting pre-defined behaviors). TS3's world are too big and it takes a lot of Sims to make the world look this lively and lots of Sims affect TS3 performance so it's a lose-lose situation.
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Mad Poster
#2 Old 10th Dec 2018 at 7:06 PM Last edited by nitromon : 10th Dec 2018 at 7:18 PM.
TSM and TS3 are completely different games! This comparison is not accurate.

TSM is just a glorified choose your own adventure. It has less simulation than TS2 or even TS1.

- tiny little town with... 5-10 lots, not to mention they're not true lots. They're premade and you can only furnish, cannot rebuild. No outer build at all, just a shell.
- much much reduced build mode, only furnishing.
- sims with no true simulation, aging, etc..
- far less interactions, etc.. things to do, etc..
- no weather effects (season is a big one for TS3 performance)

---

TS3 is a 32-bit 2009 game, it has reached its potential limit to some degree. The only thing that is limiting it at the moment is the HDD read/write speed. Game still loads dynamically as you play, such as texture, objects, cache, etc... are all loaded from HDD while the game is in play. So to render this, if you have 64 GB of RAM and can put the whole TS3 on a ramdisk, you can reach the maximum potential of TS3.

However, even so, it is still limited by the 32-bit 3.4GB limitation. Constant read/write cache swapping creates latency even on a ramdisk. There's only so much we can do with such an outdated tech.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
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Original Poster
#3 Old 10th Dec 2018 at 7:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
TSM and TS3 are completely different games! This comparison is not accurate.

TSM is just a glorified choose your own adventure. It has less simulation than TS2 or even TS1.


TSM is built on The Sims 3 engine. They're not that different.

Simulation is pretty good, albeit limited, in Medieval. Sims go around their lives and do certain activities, they socialize and form relationships, children are born. It has traits and a fatal flaw that affect behavior. Other than missing some life stages (toddlers, teens and elders), aging (babies become children but that's it) and a build mode, it's not that different to The Sims 3. And nope, it's not a glorified choose your own adventure. You can forgo questing and just play without any objectives or responsibilities. There's no aging or focus on family play (it may be a deal breaker for some), but I enjoy it for what it is.

The point of this thread was to compare the improvements of The Sims Medieval compared to The Sims 3, not to point out all that's missing. The Sims 2 Castaway Stories doesn't allow to place new lots and TS2 Pet Stories doesn't have elders but they are good for what they are.
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Original Poster
#4 Old 10th Dec 2018 at 7:51 PM Last edited by Naus Allien : 10th Dec 2018 at 8:35 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
- tiny little town with... 5-10 lots, not to mention they're not true lots. They're premade and you can only furnish, cannot rebuild. No outer build at all, just a shell.

Maybe The Sims 3 was too big for its own good (built on a shaky foundation). But if you watch the video you'll notice Medieval improved many things such as routing.
The town is small-ish, but there are definitely more than 10 "lots." I wouldn't even call them lots, the town act as a whole. You don't even see "seams" in between places. To recap all places you can add to your town: Castle with Great Hall extension, spy tower, barracks, wizard's tower, clinic, cathedral, monastery, market, smithy, tavern, central square, judgment pit, kingball court, training grounds, pavilion, mill, lighthouse and docks (+ all the rabbit holes like the forest, the cave and the village).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
- much much reduced build mode, only furnishing.

You can still change walls and floor tiles, add columns, balustrades, and other build mode objects. You can build any new walls, and you're right buildings work like a shell, but you can customize them a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
- sims with no true simulation, aging, etc..

Other than Sims not aging, the simulation is very similar to TS3 base game. Sims have traits and act according to these traits. They socialize and form relationships. New Sims are born and grow into children. There are random events happening all over town, Sims dueling, getting injured, sent to the stocks, guests arriving to the Great Hall, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
- far less interactions, etc.. things to do, etc..

I've been playing for a while and there are quite a good number of interactions and things to do. Don't forget all the NEW interactions the game adds for Hero sims. There are card games, kingball, live shows, chess, violin, laud and much, much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
- no weather effects (season is a big one for TS3 performance)

Probably. But in my opinion it performs better than TS3 base game. You can't never get 100% lag-free simulation in TS3. At least at some point some lag is present no matter what PC you have. I still super fun and enjoyable, but lag is an omnipresent threat. I don't think weather is what impacts TS3 performance the most. I'm convinced it's routing issues, stuck Sims and other world-related crap (stereos left turned on is a big one).
Alchemist
#5 Old 10th Dec 2018 at 10:24 PM
I really wish there was a way of pulling more of TSM's content into TS3- the engines are very closely related, but not compatible.

Imagine if we got the subsurface scattering that TSM sims had!
Mad Poster
#6 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 1:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naus Allien
TSM is built on The Sims 3 engine. They're not that different.


It's a "reduced engine." A lot of things were stripped. Mainly, it is not a "simulation" anymore. Sims don't age and die, no real family tree. I mean your babies turn to kids, that's about it. No real build mode, etc... these are the things which slows TS3 down b/c it is virtually "a world" running on its own.

TSM is not really even an open world, it is more like 1 lot with 10 different rooms. You see a lot of sims walking around, but they don't really have much to do nor do they have any schedules. For instance, In TS3, sims are pushed to certain lots based on certain factors. This is not in TSM, they're randomly going places, just moving around randomly afaik. This is why I say even TS1 or TS2 is more of a simulation despite being dollhouses.

Edit: Just gave TSM a whirl. Ahh the nostalgia. It never used more than 1GB of RAM. Sims have a hunger and a tireness bar, that's about it. Limited clothing choices, etc... It's really more of an RPG. I think I mentioned before I would love to see Ultima series remade in this engine.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
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Original Poster
#7 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 1:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
It's a "reduced engine."

It's not a "reduced" engine. What does that even mean? Do you know what an engine is? It's a genuine question. It seems to be a lot of misinformation about what an engine is. And engine is an environment or toolset to create a game. The same engine that was used to create The Sims 3, was used to make Medieval. And it wasn't "reduced," in fact the renderer was improved to support subsurface scattering and improved lighting. The fact that is a smaller game doesn't mean that engine that was used to make it was "reduced" compared to The Sims 3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
A lot of things were stripped. Mainly, it is not a "simulation" anymore. Sims don't age and die, no real family tree. I mean your babies turn to kids, that's about it. No real build mode, etc... these are the things which slows TS3 down b/c it is virtually "a world" running on its own.

I strongly disagree. Yes, a lot of things were stripped down but there are still enough sim elements to consider it a simulation. TS1 Sims didn't age and die either, there wasn't a real family tree and babies turned into kids. Does it make The Sims 1 NOT a simulation according to your subjective criteria? A simulation goes beyond aging and family play. Medieval has a sandbox / freeplay mode, in which you don't have to complete any quests or do any tasks, you can just enjoy everything else it has to offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
TSM is not really even an open world, it is more like 1 lot with 10 different rooms. You see a lot of sims walking around, but they don't really have much to do nor do they have any schedules. For instance, In TS3, sims are pushed to certain lots based on certain factors. This is not in TSM, they're randomly going places, just moving around randomly afaik. This is why I say even TS1 or TS2 is more of a simulation despite being dollhouses.

It is an open world game. STOP making up your own definitions, nitromon. Open world games are non-linear, allow free exploration, don't have loading screen in between areas, an allow a free approach to objectives or a sandbox experience. Sims Medieval meets every criterion to be consider an open world. The world being small doesn't make it any less open. And Sims have schedules. You said you played it, I can't believe you're saying that. The bartender cleans the tavern and serves drinks to the customers, the monarch's servant cooks you a meal every morning and then goes to clean the bathroom, the harlequin plays the lute and entertains visitors in the Great Hall. I don't know if NPCs go to random places when they're not fulfilling their obligations. Do you? Have you analyzed Sims Medieval xmls and scripts to be so certain about it?
Scholar
#8 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 2:47 AM
You do realise that a lot of features of the TS3 engine are not available for use in TSM, right?

- You can't terraform.
- You can't build your own world.
- You can't place lots or change the structures and then add families to them.
- The other non story sims are not taking part in some kind of story progression.
- No weather
- No vehicles
- A lot less content

So it might still be an open world to some extent (which is kind of a pointless term anyway), but in terms of features not even close to the possibilities in TS3. And from a simulation point of view dumbed down. Less agents, less locations, less options. So it is not really a surprise that with these restrictions in place it can run more smoothly compared to a big world with a lot of expansions packs in TS3.

Apart from some improved graphical effects I am not sure what you want to take from TSM. I own the base game and it lacks most of the freedom that TS3 offers. It is more like a story driven spin off. When TSM was released, it was discussed a lot here on the forums. It never became that popular is what I remember.
Mad Poster
#9 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 10:30 AM
I'm sure, being EA, they didn't much to change the game's code but simply added a few //'s here and there. The rest, I assume, is still there but with no UI functionality there's no way to use it.

Look out for BRIDGEPORT'88 - it's the hottest new show on YT this season!
Already renewed for '89!

(Oh, and join my dumb Discord server for more on that or if you like dead things, my Tumblr.)
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Original Poster
#10 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 3:11 PM Last edited by Naus Allien : 11th Dec 2018 at 4:15 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrijzePilion
I'm sure, being EA, they didn't much to change the game's code but simply added a few //'s here and there. The rest, I assume, is still there but with no UI functionality there's no way to use it.


You're right. It's all there. From Build Mode and Edit Town, to the Dresser system (Ambitions) and BOUNCERS! (Late Night). All the code is there:




I guess it's a good thing the game performs so well despite running all this code it has no use for. If I had to make a conjecture, I'd say they probably left some code from TS3 just in case they decided to expand the game in future patches and add an edit town mode or even build mode. But low sales ended up killing the game before more features could be implemented.
Mad Poster
#11 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 7:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naus Allien
I'd say they probably left some code from TS3 just in case they decided to expand the game in future patches and add an edit town mode or even build mode. But low sales ended up killing the game before more features could be implemented.


It was a misstep and a missed opportunity. Like many I was excited when I saw the trailer, thinking it was some sort of "mideval sims" game. Then it turned out to be just a lot of repetitious reading. They actually made an expansion pack, which I also have and was "hoping" it restored much of the missing functions, but to this date I cannot tell what that expansion pack does other than added a few pirate costumes.

But to draw another point, what is an open world? I mean, Sims 2 is an open world in some sense b/c it is an open world in the house. It doesn't become open world when we incorporate the whole neighborhood. But what about TSM? It is open world as long as we're restricted in this "so called" town. But is it a town? Look at it carefully. It has no "lots" on it. That is why sims move in and out of buildings seamlessly. Technically it really is one huge lot with many rooms, and not really a "town" as in the sense we know in TS3. So it really isn't an open world. The game also included many other nations, including traverse by sea, yet we do not get to go there... so it is considered "closed" world.

The best thing TSM contributed to the Sims franchise is allowing modders to convert their contents to TS3 in order to create a real mideval world.

Fun Project:
I don't use CAW so I dont know if this is possible. But anyone want to try creating a tiny island in CAW and put only 1 lot on it? What is the largest possible lot in TS3? 64x64? Maybe if there is a custom way of making it bigger, say 150x150 or something. Then on this lot build 10 essentials you need to run TS3. Then using "more than 8" in a household, place as many sims as possible.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Mad Poster
#12 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 7:43 PM
I've wanted to do this for a while, too. One, maybe two large lots which Sims can live on and nothing else. No terrain features, no flora, no fauna, no water. Then I'd embed a custom lighting setup in the world and make it pitch black outside so that there would only be artificial light. Boom, now we're on a starship weeks away from any other human life.

Look out for BRIDGEPORT'88 - it's the hottest new show on YT this season!
Already renewed for '89!

(Oh, and join my dumb Discord server for more on that or if you like dead things, my Tumblr.)
Alchemist
#13 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 8:37 PM Last edited by jje1000 : 11th Dec 2018 at 9:02 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naus Allien
You're right. It's all there. From Build Mode and Edit Town, to the Dresser system (Ambitions) and BOUNCERS! (Late Night). All the code is there:




I guess it's a good thing the game performs so well despite running all this code it has no use for. If I had to make a conjecture, I'd say they probably left some code from TS3 just in case they decided to expand the game in future patches and add an edit town mode or even build mode. But low sales ended up killing the game before more features could be implemented.


Anything in there regarding graphics?

Edit: Also what program are you using to look into the files?
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#14 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 8:39 PM
Quote:
I don't use CAW so I dont know if this is possible. But anyone want to try creating a tiny island in CAW and put only 1 lot on it? What is the largest possible lot in TS3? 64x64? Maybe if there is a custom way of making it bigger, say 150x150 or something. Then on this lot build 10 essentials you need to run TS3. Then using "more than 8" in a household, place as many sims as possible.


I did, many times around 20 sims the game started to choke - no mods, no CC, Builder Island (updated) world - so it's not "complete empty" . Usually I create the whole families that way (it's much faster) and then move them to the designated world, with wardrobe CC they can be even properly dressed in one go. Someone with better machine should get better results, but - remember: that is only "CAS, drop on lot, CAS, drop on lot..." routine, no garbage accumulated from normal gameplay. My "stranded on island" families usually started to deteriorate (lag-wise) around 10 sims (with a lot of mods, extended by them gameplay, and such stuff).

Anyway, despise engines similarity (or near identity if someone insist), not invoked functionality is just a garbage-code in practice. 'till you call it, it does not exists, therefore even if it's in practice "skipped" (let's be simple please) in somewhat primitive and vulgar way ( @call_function(return false); ) it won't effect much the actual working code.

TSM is deliberately very shallow in the gameplay area, and that's a shame (so many wasted potential). It would be horror if it could'd be much more efficient. One of the most consuming simulation elements is constant route updates (because player put suddenly that damned stool a 3 pixels to the left), another are a lot constantly working in the background elements which effectively does not exists in TSM.

Anyway - I would grab that subsurface thing in any moment. Even pudding faces in TSM are soooooooo better. /sigh

Fox-Lambert (A)RL
hiatus 'till the life run again in the normal-abnormal way
favorite quote: "When ElaineNualla is posting..I always read..Nutella. I am sorry" by Rosebine
self-claimed "lower-spec simmer"
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Original Poster
#15 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
But to draw another point, what is an open world? I mean, Sims 2 is an open world in some sense b/c it is an open world in the house. It doesn't become open world when we incorporate the whole neighborhood. But what about TSM? It is open world as long as we're restricted in this "so called" town. But is it a town? Look at it carefully. It has no "lots" on it. That is why sims move in and out of buildings seamlessly. Technically it really is one huge lot with many rooms, and not really a "town" as in the sense we know in TS3. So it really isn't an open world. The game also included many other nations, including traverse by sea, yet we do not get to go there... so it is considered "closed" world.


Once again you're trying to use The Sims 3's implementation of the open world concept as the general rule of what open worlds must be. Every open world game has a different implementation of the open world concept but they're all centered around the idea of a continuous experience, non-linear narrative and a freer approach to objectives, free roaming and exploration and additional ways of interacting with the world around beyond the main objective/quest/area/etc. Medieval meets all the requirements because even within the "quest" mode (as opposed to the freeplay mode) you can choose which buildings and characters you want to create after completing the tutorial "level." There are multiple ways to approach quests, with different characters and many different outcomes. There's also the free roaming component and all the additional activities you can do (including have children) that go beyond quests and objectives.

The Sims 2 is not an open world because it doesn't allow uninterrupted free roaming. You're restricted to a small area and going to a different area incurs in a loading screen which breaks the "continuous experience" idea. Big open world areas with loading screens to go to other areas (or in Bethesda games, for example, interiors). So it's not necessarily one or the other, but The Sims 2 doesn't have any sort of uninterrupted free roaming. Even TS4 is a little bit more of an open world than The Sims 2. A lot (even the largest one) is too small of an area to even be considered as a free roaming opportunity. There's also the massive problem of continuity. Open world games that feature loading screens in general try to keep continuity and when you fast travel, for example, in-game hours pass to give the experience a sense of continuity. The Sims 2 does horrible in this aspect with community lots existing in a different universe with its own time. When you return home it's exactly the same time than when you left. This is immersion breaking, and immersion is another important aspect in open world game design.

The Sims 4 could be argued to be open world to an extent, though the constant loading screents in between lots within the same map/free roaming space is a big a thing against this idea. If TS4 allowed to visit all lots within one map/instance without loading screens, then I've no quams calling it an open world game. A small and limited open world, but an open world in the technical sense of the word.

Medieval has lots from a technical point of view. You can't place or move objects outside a pre-determined space and interiors are not rendered unless you go to a lot or use the "see inside" interaction. What's more conclusive, the game itself treats them as lots:


The way it works is that the game replaces the "empty" lot version with the corresponding "furnished/unfurnished" lot when you erect a building. Even places such as the forest are treated as rabbit hole lots like the town hall in TS3.

I said it many times but I'll repeat, underneath its small size and lack of features, Medieval is a reskinned version of The Sims 3. I don't think the game could function if it didn't treat the places you visit as lots.
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Original Poster
#16 Old 11th Dec 2018 at 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineNualla
I did, many times around 20 sims the game started to choke - no mods, no CC, Builder Island (updated) world - so it's not "complete empty" . Usually I create the whole families that way (it's much faster) and then move them to the designated world, with wardrobe CC they can be even properly dressed in one go. Someone with better machine should get better results, but - remember: that is only "CAS, drop on lot, CAS, drop on lot..." routine, no garbage accumulated from normal gameplay. My "stranded on island" families usually started to deteriorate (lag-wise) around 10 sims (with a lot of mods, extended by them gameplay, and such stuff).


I managed to add +-50 Sims to a lot (I wanted to do a 100 toddler challenge with 1 adult and 100 toddlers):


The game was fine for the most part, but many Sims stood there doing nothing. This was in Sunset Valley, I think. I suppose a smaller, empty world should be able to handle even more.
Mad Poster
#17 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 11:07 AM
I'm not suprize as TSM is much more limited in terms of what and how many game mechanics it offers. Then again, I'm not familiar nor experience with TS3, let alone played the spin-off version of it.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
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#18 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 3:39 PM
@Naus Allien I'd dare to say, that @nitromon's (do not kill me mate) intention was emphasis not just really "size" (which does not matters much)* but rather simultaneus simulation - that's sounds like kinda commercial -,- - and level (depth if you prefer) of such (age stages, different gameplay, activities and so on). Overall: attempt to create "the living world experience" not just "open one". It was really bold at the time and they failed mostly. Does Beth' morrowind-ish (daggerfall-ish for elder ones) world is "open" - yeah, is it "alive", nah... not really. Decorative mostly.

*gameplay-wise, depends of the way of said gameplay it's not necessary to have big spaces to create an illusion of vast open area, go ride the highway in Half Life 2 - it's just a corridor, heavily scripted, but that feeling - especially the 1st time back in 2009...

Fox-Lambert (A)RL
hiatus 'till the life run again in the normal-abnormal way
favorite quote: "When ElaineNualla is posting..I always read..Nutella. I am sorry" by Rosebine
self-claimed "lower-spec simmer"
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Original Poster
#19 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 4:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineNualla
@Naus Allien I'd dare to say, that @nitromon's (do not kill me mate) intention was emphasis not just really "size" (which does not matters much)* but rather simultaneus simulation - that's sounds like kinda commercial -,- - and level (depth if you prefer) of such (age stages, different gameplay, activities and so on). Overall: attempt to create "the living world experience" not just "open one". It was really bold at the time and they failed mostly. Does Beth' morrowind-ish (daggerfall-ish for elder ones) world is "open" - yeah, is it "alive", nah... not really. Decorative mostly.

*gameplay-wise, depends of the way of said gameplay it's not necessary to have big spaces to create an illusion of vast open area, go ride the highway in Half Life 2 - it's just a corridor, heavily scripted, but that feeling - especially the 1st time back in 2009...


I understand what his trying to say, but I wasn't arguing that Sims Medieval is as big as The Sims 3. I never said that. What I said was that The Sims Medieval is still an open world (a small one, but open nonetheless), still is a simulation game, runs on The Sims 3 engine, but happens to be 100% lag-free and there are some obvious improvements (smoother animations for example) compared to The Sims 3. Maybe The Sims 3 was too big for its own good. Maybe it needed smaller worlds and a more condensed simulation.

At the very least Medieval proofs that the concept of an open world can work in The Sims franchise, but developers have to be careful as to how big they make the world and how much complexity they add.

As much as I love TS3 EPs, some of them added features The Sims 3 wasn't strong enough to handle: house boats and routing in the ocean, horses, etc. I'm curious to try and install the base game only (No SPs/EPs, only up to the Ambitions/Late Night patch). Maybe it'll perform as well as Medieval does. How far can we push the core foundation?
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#20 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 5:53 PM
still - there's problem of "depth" or "accumulation" if you wish. The open-ish world of TSM is flat (it's deliberate design) there's no typical gameplay-wise garbage accumulation connected with passing time (relationships in time, family tree and it's own problems, inventory, states of sims etc. etc. etc.). Even if we take in account than S3 is forever frozen in early XXI century like S2 in late XX (kinda) there's still time passing. And, well, a lot (i mean a LOT) entities to manage (how many sims are managed in TSM in one time? 20? 30?). This simply does not exists mostly in TSM. Like the whole bunch of expansions becoming burden for old and older engine.

And we already have somewhat TSM-like implementation of The Sims for some extension - it's Sims 4. And even taking into account better machines, newer 64 bit compilations, confined scope, deliberate limitations (etc.) that version burdened with another and another expansions starts to crack. As interested parties apparently said so. So - I'm strangely sure, TSM with seriously enchanced gameplay would be as laggysome as TS3 itself.

Fox-Lambert (A)RL
hiatus 'till the life run again in the normal-abnormal way
favorite quote: "When ElaineNualla is posting..I always read..Nutella. I am sorry" by Rosebine
self-claimed "lower-spec simmer"
Mad Poster
#21 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 7:12 PM
My intention was trying to bring up the point we're comparing apples to oranges. They're not remotely the same. TSM is a RPG, not a simulation. To call it open world simulation, might as well call Ultima 6,7,8 open world simulations too. They're completely not the same in design, function, gameplay.

I think all the views aside, one factual evidence we cannot ignore is simply TSM doesn't use more than 1 GB or RAM. This is an indication of just "how much" is going on in the game, which is very little. It doesn't have a high demand on your CPU, so obviously no lag. It does actually use more of your GPU and I've done testing on that in the past.

http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=571559

BTW, this reminds me of the Star Trek Voyager 2 part Episodes "Flesh and Blood"

It is about a bunch of sentient holograms (AI) that revolted against their flesh masters. So in one scene they attacked a cargo ship, killed all the crew to save 3 holograms workers. When the workers came aboard their ship, the leader smiled and greeted them and explained they're freed. The 3 holograms replied, "Command not recognized, please enter command." And no matter what the leader said, the 3 holograms just keep repeating the same line.

Turned out the 3 holograms had not more than a dozen subroutines, programmed only with basic functions with no complex algorithms.... etc... they were not defective, they were simply "simple."

So compare the Sims AI in TS3 and TSM, you'll understand. They may run on the same AI matrix, but they're not the same.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Test Subject
#22 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 8:02 PM Last edited by TwisterMister : 12th Dec 2018 at 8:16 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon

I think all the views aside, one factual evidence we cannot ignore is simply TSM doesn't use more than 1 GB or RAM. This is an indication of just "how much" is going on in the game, which is very little. It doesn't have a high demand on your CPU, so obviously no lag. It does actually use more of your GPU and I've done testing on that in the past.

http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=571559






Honestly though TS3 base game didn’t often use much more than a gig of RAM. TSM seems kinda like The Sims Stories in the sense it’s actually close enough to simulating the same sort of things as the Main Game, but removed somethings even though it added others (like stories games adding turn ons/turn offs, resturants, dating ,etc but removing some voices, neighborhood and lot sizes and other things).

I brought this up in the thread about stuff said about TS3 we don’t understand about how TS3 base game open world and story progression worked just fine at the beginning, but it’s anyones guess how much forsight they put into how the game would handle all the expansion packs. And to be fair it is hard to predict how much content your game will handle when you haven’t made all that content yet. With what we know now, making a TS3 like game with that open world maybe even bigger and to handle more expansions should be easier to make stable and run great since now we have a better idea how much content can be put out for a sims game.

Now if we had a publisher who didn’t foolishly think we wanted an online game at first, TS4 coulda been just that.
Mad Poster
#23 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 8:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
BTW, this reminds me of the Star Trek Voyager 2 part Episodes "Flesh and Blood"

It is about a bunch of sentient holograms (AI) that revolted against their flesh masters. So in one scene they attacked a cargo ship, killed all the crew to save 3 holograms workers. When the workers came aboard their ship, the leader smiled and greeted them and explained they're freed. The 3 holograms replied, "Command not recognized, please enter command." And no matter what the leader said, the 3 holograms just keep repeating the same line.

Turned out the 3 holograms had not more than a dozen subroutines, programmed only with basic functions with no complex algorithms.... etc... they were not defective, they were simply "simple."

Now I've seen over 500 episodes of Star Trek so it should not surprise me that I had no memory of this two-parter.....but it does. Most of Voyager is big one blur to me and that may even have to do with the limited image quality, punnily enough. However if I recall correctly, that particular two-parter ended in a compromise. The holograms, complex and simple alike, were given a planet to sustain themselves on. And everyone, except the Doctor's overinflated ego, lived happily ever after. So I suppose that if we somehow have to make Voyager into something it is not - an allegory - the moral of the story may be that you need to reach a compromise that can offer as much as both as possible. And that either means the glass is half full or half empty.

Either you're not going to have the richly detailed world of TSM and the large open worlds of TS3, or you can say the glass is half full and make the best of what you can achieve. Buroughsburg is a good example of this, I think. It's visually appealing and very intricate, yet light enough to be completely playable.

Also for the record, I much preferred the Nazi episode. That was a two-parter and it had Hirogen too, but it was way cooler.

Look out for BRIDGEPORT'88 - it's the hottest new show on YT this season!
Already renewed for '89!

(Oh, and join my dumb Discord server for more on that or if you like dead things, my Tumblr.)
Forum Resident
Original Poster
#24 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 8:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
My intention was trying to bring up the point we're comparing apples to oranges. They're not remotely the same. TSM is a RPG, not a simulation. To call it open world simulation, might as well call Ultima 6,7,8 open world simulations too. They're completely not the same in design, function, gameplay.

It's not comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they're not the same but they're still similar enough to be compared. Once again, you claim TSM is not an open world simulation, when by the very definition of that concept it is. You don't get to make up the definitions that are convenient for your arguments. These are defined concepts in game design that have been agreed upon by experts. You can read a little bit more about them here: The Guide to Open World Game Design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
I think all the views aside, one factual evidence we cannot ignore is simply TSM doesn't use more than 1 GB or RAM. This is an indication of just "how much" is going on in the game, which is very little. It doesn't have a high demand on your CPU, so obviously no lag. It does actually use more of your GPU and I've done testing on that in the past.


This is an absolute FALLACY of false equivalence. Game uses 1 GB of RAM or less (which is another fallacy: anecdotal) -> Very little happens in the game.
You don't know if the reason it uses less memory is because it's better optimized than TS3, which is infamous for its memory leaks. You don't know if they updated the memory manager of the engine for Medieval. You don't know if they made a better job at debugging and optimizing since the game was smaller. Read about the Sagan standard, please.

I don't know what testing you conducted but unless you did it on a variety of systems and configurations, any conclusion you can derive from that is absolutely anecdotal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
So compare the Sims AI in TS3 and TSM, you'll understand. They may run on the same AI matrix, but they're not the same.


They're definitely not the same. TSM appears to have better AI to me. But I'm not an AI expert, so I can't give any proof. My experience with Medieval has been very gratifying. For example, when you start playing an instrument most Sims begin to dance, the waitress serves drinks to guests at the tavern, sims attend the church of their religion, when two Sims are dueling others react to it, etc. I know The Sims 3 has way more things going simultaneously, but I haven't encounter so far a single instance in which a PC or NPC behaved in the wrong way or didn't react to something important happening nearby.
Mad Poster
#25 Old 12th Dec 2018 at 8:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwisterMister
Honestly though TS3 base game didn’t often use much more than a gig of RAM. TSM seems kinda like The Sims Stories in the sense it’s actually close enough to simulating the same sort of things as the Main Game, but removed somethings even though it added others (like stories games adding turn ons/turn offs, resturants, dating ,etc but removing some voices, neighborhood and lot sizes and other things).


That's somewhat true, though I never run just the basegame itself, but every time I run a clean run with basegame + all EP except showtime/supernatural, the game runs crystal fast, no lag, etc... sims are super active like TSM.

But again, the comparison is still not the same simply b/c they removed some and added some. It is the same concept when people ask "how much CC and mods is too much and make the game lag?" It isn't merely the number but the size and function, some mods are heavier than others. Likewise some EPs are heavier than others.

TSM removed a lot of "simulation" functions and replaced it with things that doesn't require additional CPU or RAM usage, small things. I mean the very very obvious is the fact TS3 sims have 6 "needs" bar that constantly requires attention while TSM only has 2 - hunger and energy. That alone majorly reduced the TSM AI to 1/3 of complexity of TS3 AI.

But it isn't just the sims, the whole world is different. In TS3, your whole world is literally built up. Most buldings, except RH, are built with walls, roofs, beams, friezes, foundations, etc... while in TSM they're not. They're premade shell, so the buildings are actually "objects" instead of something that is built in an engine. To simply put, there is NO building engine in TSM. That takes LOADS off the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrijzePilion
Buroughsburg is a good example of this, I think. It's visually appealing and very intricate, yet light enough to be completely playable.


I haven't been playing Boroughsburg, just building for it. However, I still doubt it will run smoother than other worlds once it becomes populated and the generation starts to collect. b/c though it is small, it is quite compact and detailed. Likewise is that island world Suva Diva, it ran smooth at first, but my version now runs more or less like any other old populated world.

Quote:
Also for the record, I much preferred the Nazi episode. That was a two-parter and it had Hirogen too, but it was way cooler.


Have you noticed the Hirogens got smaller in every episode? My favorite is the 2nd episode, where they captured Tuvok and 7. In that episode they were huge!

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
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