What goes into a person's sexuality? What factors into its definition?

[maybesomethingdunno]

Is there a definitive or "most agreed upon" criteria for a particular sexuality? How exactly does someone determine their sexuality or that of someone else? I don't mean this to be another "Do you believe X is a choice, caused by genetics, or something else?" thread because I'm not asking how a person came to be a certain way but instead how they might decide that they are that way. I understand labels can be controversial and often messy for some people, but labels can be used as reference points to serve as a foundation.

I have often heard "He/she can't be gay because he/she is married to a woman/man and has a child" in regards to a particular person who behaves in a way consistent with people's expectations for a stereotypical homosexual. Maybe the person really is gay, maybe the person isn't. Certainly it would not be impossible for a homosexual person to marry into a heterosexual relationship and procreate. But to what extent could something such as marriage really affect or reflect their sexuality or its definition? (I'll expand or explain the marriage example soon.)

My understanding, in simple terms (please forgive me if they're too simple), has been that: a heterosexual person is attracted to and desires a member of the opposite sex; a homosexual person is attracted to and desires a member of the same sex; a bisexual person can be attracted to and can desire a member of either sex.

However this seems to only take into consideration physical and emotional desires/needs but nothing else. Do you think there are more criteria? What about personal, aspirational/lifetime goals such as marriage and having children? Do you think one factor outweighs another? (For example, would physical attraction outweigh emotional as a deciding factor?)

Consider a woman who feels physical attraction and an emotional longing for other women. Although she is not really attracted to men physically, she desires to marry a man who shares their mutual love for one another ("soul-mates") and with whom she can have children because she wants to have a family in a heterosexual, "traditional" context. She doesn't necessarily want children via adoption; she prefers her own children with a male partner to be the father figure and to help raise them.

Could she be a heterosexual because she desires to marry a man, have sex with him, and start a family in the context of a heterosexual relationship? Is she really a homosexual because of her physical and emotional desire to be with a woman? Or would such a scenario make her bisexual because her desires are not limited to one end of a hetero-/homo-sexual spectrum? Is she a homosexual who wishes to be heterosexual? Or might she be feeling some kind of subconscious pressure to fit within a particular social norm? How might such a woman balance a desire for other women with having a family involving a relationship with a man? She could marry a man, but could she necessarily be as happy as if she had fully engaged in a "women-only" direction?

I point out such a scenario as this because it doesn't seem to necessarily fit neatly. It is more complicated. Here it seems there is more to a sexual orientation than just physical and emotional attraction. She might have a "rational" or "aspirational" attraction to men for the sake of her goal or desire to procreate within a heterosexual marriage. But is such a desire really necessarily relevant to her sexuality?

Of course, anyone can say they are of a certain orientation, but a person could also be in denial for whatever reason. How might one know for certain? If there are definitive deciding factors, what are they? Are they the same for everyone? Where might you draw the line in some of the more vague areas or scenarios? How might you determine if a person is being honest with you or their self about their own sexuality?


Obviously, I don't mean anyone any offense by any statements, assumptions, or anything implied in this rambling prompt. I just want to know what others think. :)

[ElementMK]

I'm not sure about the details, but one simple test to figure out sexuality is this: What would you stick it in? What would you have stuck in you? That's your sexuality.

[whiterider]

I disagree - it's not nearly that simple. Sure, sexual desires play a significant role, but even they aren't simple. I know gay men who don't want to have sex with men - what does that make them, these men who are attracted to and ogle at, date, fall in love with and engage in relationships with men? What, are they asexual now? What about lesbians who like playing with dildos - that's not an attraction to a natural female bodypart, it's certainly an emulation of male bits to some extent... are they then heterosexual?

And let's take it a little further. You say "What would you have stuck in you"... well, I'm bi, but there are plenty of men (and women) who I would never allow to stick anything in me. Your test would include that as part of my sexuality: does that mean I'm selectively bi? If so, aren't straight and gay people also just selectively bi - selecting by gender rather than other features? Is there also such a thing as no-skinny-people-sexual, or blondes-and-black-hair-only-sexual?

There's no simple test or criteria. I've seen so many variations on sexuality that I can't keep track, and honestly I think it's a fool's errand to try. Labels are useful, but they're general and ignore a great deal of variation: honestly, as long as someone is willing to be honest with themselves about who, and whoever, they are or aren't attracted to (whether physically, romantically, emotionally, rationally, or whatever else), I'll accept them as being whatever sexuality they say they are. And if they're not, I'll still accept whatever they say, because I'm not in their head (or other bits. Usually).

[SimsLover50]

I think sexuality is not as rigid as people think. While I agreee most are heterosexual, thoughts and feelings aren't always so neat. I think there is a lot more fluidity than both the heterosexual community and the gay community want to believe.

There are also people who are simply attracted to an individual regardless of their gender. I think they are omnisexual?

[ElementMK]

I disagree - it's not nearly that simple. Sure, sexual desires play a significant role, but even they aren't simple.Truth be told, it's just an oversimplified joke. Sexuality is odd in that 99% of it has little to do with sex. After all, we're going to get roughly the same stimulation no matter (barring that some people are better in the sack than others) who we're having sex with. For a heterosexual man, it's more about the idea of humping an attractive woman that is great, not the fact that she is an attractive woman making it great. Er, if that makes sense.

And let's take it a little further. You say "What would you have stuck in you"... well, I'm bi, but there are plenty of men (and women) who I would never allow to stick anything in me. Your test would include that as part of my sexuality: does that mean I'm selectively bi? If so, aren't straight and gay people also just selectively bi - selecting by gender rather than other features? Is there also such a thing as no-skinny-people-sexual, or blondes-and-black-hair-only-sexual?When I wrote that, I was considering all of those other factors, too. It just appears you didn't see it come off that way. Perhaps I should have used "who" instead of "what". Sexuality is ultimately "who's going to stick it in me" or vice versa, it's just a lot of factors that lead up to it which make sexuality so complex.

EDIT: I'd like to hear from the people who apparently disagree with me and whiterider.

[maxon]

Sexuality is complex and can change or at least develop as the person develops - no, I really don't think there is any simple, or indeed any particular, relationship between how someone appears to behave socially and what they desire sexually.

[fairycake89]

I think it's more simple than that, sexuality is what floats your boat on a given occassion. Some days you want a salad, some days you want a steak. I'd hate to think that beings with brains the size of ours are so restrictive in their tastes that they'd only want salad every damn day.

[ElementMK]

I'd hate to think that beings with brains the size of ours are so restrictive in their tastes that they'd only want salad every damn day....

Tell me more about this salad fetish of yours.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Well... personally, I identify as bisexual. I feel sexual attraction to both men and women - obviously, not all of them, and what I look for in an attractive man vs. an attractive woman is VERY different - both physically and in personality. I've had multiple enjoyable sexual encounters with both men and women.

But I wouldn't identify as "bi-romantic" - that is, I only carry on actual relationships with men. I'm friends with women but I have zero desire to date, live with, or marry them. Kind of irrelevant as I'm in a monogamous marriage to a man, but even if I weren't, I would only be interested in being in actual relationships with men - I might sleep with women, perhaps even women I was also friends with, but I don't want a girlfriend at all. Not sure why that is, really - I think just... what I'm looking for in a "mate" is not a woman, though I find them aesthetically pleasing and sexually attractive.

[Mootilda]

From my talks with friends, who you have sex with seems to have very little to do with how you define yourself. There are a lot of people who define themselves as homosexual who have had more heterosexual relationships than homosexual ones. Some people who define themselves as homosexual have never had homosexual sex. Most people, if pressed, will admit to having had pleasurable sexual relationships with both sexes, yet few of them define themselves as bisexual. Even people who define themselves bisexual may have biases: "I prefer to have sex with men and relationships with women" or "I want to be married to a man, but sex with women is much better".

[katy perry]

I think it's more simple than that, sexuality is what floats your boat on a given occassion. Some days you want a salad, some days you want a steak. I'd hate to think that beings with brains the size of ours are so restrictive in their tastes that they'd only want salad every damn day.

I personally dont bother about silly gender labels. If I meet someone, male or female, who I want to hook up with, I'll at least try.

I am a woman trapped in a mans body and I get people saying to me 'You want to be a woman, but you are sexually attracted to women? I can't figure that out!'

People say that transsexuals SHOULD be attracted to other men. The majority are but not every single one of them. Ive got a friend who is a T-Girl called Lily and he, I mean she, has a girlfriend who is understanding and supportive. Lily has no desire to be with other men.

In the LGBT community, that is perfectly understandable. I don't know how to explain it nor do I worry about how or why I ended up like this.

It's hard to explain but, like you say, in this day and age there are really no boundaries for sexuality other than the limits of the individual.

I meet women who are attracted to me, and plead with me not to got through with a sex-change operation because they are attracted to me as a man. My insticts tell me a relationship just simply wouldn't work with these women even though I wish to god it would.

[maxon]

Some fascinating comments here - katy, I don't think you need to explain, you just made it very clear that people can have quite diverse sexual tastes and that has nothing to do with whatever gender role they take on. For my part, some individuals have assumed in the past that I was lesbian because of how I relate to women and because of my political ... um ... leanings, I guess. I like women, I like women a lot, I think women are great. I make long-term friendships with women (I've known my oldest friend more than 40 years) which often have deep emotional connections and I was an 80s feminist (went through the whole comradeship, protesting and lobbying thing). But the fact is, I am only attracted to men sexually - always have been and suspect I always will be. This sometimes got me in trouble with the more radical elements of 80s feminism. Still, I wasn't alone. <shrug> I've been married nearly 20 years. He's my best friend.

[ElementMK]

I am a woman trapped in a mans body and I get people saying to me 'You want to be a woman, but you are sexually attracted to women? I can't figure that out!'http://i54.tinypic.com/29xsxzb.gif

Just kidding, yo. I suppose I found it confusing when people said this, because it muddles up any clarity about one's sexual orientation. However, it makes sense when you think about it. Your sex and your sexuality are two different things, and though we typically combine them as a society (with a fresh pile of gender roles and other happy fun stuff), they really don't have that much to do with one another. It may help if the term "transsexual" didn't sound like it was in the same category as "homosexual" and "bisexual", but I'm guessing that's why the term "transgender" is being pushed more.

[whiterider]

It's not just a social thing - there are several Australian jurisdictions whose anti-homophobia laws protect "heterosexuals, homosexuals and transsexuals" (I don't remember the exact wording, or which laws contain that wording - I still have the paper I wrote on the subject, but it's on a hard drive in another country). While I'm all for anti-transphobia legislation, it really does go to show how confused the term "sexuality" can sometimes become - explain how transsexuality can be in any way a predictor of whom a person will be attracted to, and I'll put a video of Shakespeare (the real one) dancing the macarena on youtube.

[fraroc]

This is why I completley stopped believing in sexuality. That's why in my mind there is no "gay" and "straight". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if a man finds beauty in another man or a woman to another woman. So be it.

[katy perry]

This is why I completley stopped believing in sexuality. That's why in my mind there is no "gay" and "straight". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if a man finds beauty in another man or a woman to another woman. So be it.

I think thats why I love the Sims so much. They dont care about the gender boundaries it's like how society should be. I often talk with my psycologist about it because it shows how we make simple issues so complicated.

[cameronrogers]

well to determin it, its the gender who feel more comforable being around in that way, the one you also feel more attracted to as well.

[katy perry]

Maybe it's just this kind of town where I live, people here are very backward and the church has too much influence over the local council. I'm starting to realise that the majority of christians at large have nothing against gays but like I said customs and beliefs here can be quite old fashioned. In places not far from here you're not even allowed to hang your washing up on a Sunday, I mean, WTF is that all about? :lol:

[SimsLover50]

I think thats why I love the Sims so much. They dont care about the gender boundaries it's like how society should be. I often talk with my psycologist about it because it shows how we make simple issues so complicated.

I like this too. I like the fact that my sim's son or daughter could prefer a gender on his/her own, and I really like the fact that gays and straights can marry and its no big deal at all.

However, EA took a step back with the romantic rep feature, which I feel is too judgemental for my tastes. I'd rather break up my sims on my own and decide if my sim is a cheater, wtihout the game passing judgement. Fortunately, there is a mod now for that.

[katy perry]

well to determin it, its the gender who feel more comforable being around in that way, the one you also feel more attracted to as well.

I think it's in one of Twallan's mods Sims can actually ask each other their gender preference. But in the end it still doesn't matter.

Sim A is male and gay

Sim B is female and gay

It could still work even though their gender preferences dont match, just like when star signs dont match. Who really cares about star signs matching in reality? Is there a reason why we apply so much consideration to gender preference?

[SimsLover50]

I view all sims as being omnisexual. With the exception of female sims getting pregnant there aren't any gender differences between the sims, and I rather like it that way. I prefer a more equal social structure.

[katy perry]

I think theres a way male sims can get pregnant too using a cheat or a mod. And also I read somewhere once - cant remember where though - that scientists are looking into ways for male gay couples to have their own children. Their findings suggested that sperm could develop in the male gut.

[ElementMK]

I think theres a way male sims can get pregnant too using a cheat or a mod. And also I read somewhere once - cant remember where though - that scientists are looking into ways for male gay couples to have their own children. Their findings suggested that sperm could develop in the male gut.A baby can't be created in a "tummy" or gut. It's the same reason women can't get pregnant from -ahem- swallowing sperm.

Creating a sperm-like cell is one thing. Creating an area for a fetus to develop within the human body is another thing entirely.

[Rafe Weisz]

I find all of this as being even simpler than anyone could believe. In fact, I can resume it in only a few points.
1) A fact: there is evil people in the world, and they do evil things (of course)
2) If they ever got discovered being evil (just a simple example: cheating to not pay taxes), they bould be punished
3) there are smart people that could discover them, and they know it.
So what they can do to avoid being punished for harming others? Distracting everyone, of course? And there is an easy way of archieving that: confising them.

So just convince a group of people they are something, something fun, taboo, and secret, and they will want to believe it. And then, others will follow, because they want fun, or are rebellious, or like to be into "exclusive" groups. When they are enough, the idea of being different will appear. Then, they will assume they are being discriminated because the world never took into account ideas that never existed before.
So get up and become activists, demand rights, change history to prove your point, and get young and defensless children to agree with your new ideas by getting them into mandatory classes thay have to take. Convince yourself that their parents are against your ideas because they hate you and take action to leave these retrograde people with no power over their own children.
Get some more rights, this time exclusive for your "minority" group.

While you do activism for inexistent "needs" you are doing the dirty job of some jerk out there, by distracting people from what he is doing, and confusing everyone on the way.

So I think that is why this "there are tons of genders wanting to be discovered, and the only wrong one is straight" is that susessful. If we are paying attention to it, someone out there is free of doing whatever they want without fear of being caught.
I agree this "gendering" thing is confusing, and here you have a good reason for it to be that way. I tried to write it with very simple words so everyone can understand, but you are free of correcting my writing to make it more accesible.

[whiterider]

Er, how's that relevant to the topic?

[missy harries]

A baby can't be created in a "tummy" or gut. It's the same reason women can't get pregnant from -ahem- swallowing sperm.

Creating a sperm-like cell is one thing. Creating an area for a fetus to develop within the human body is another thing entirely.

If they can do it in a test tube then I don't see why not. Look, fist pregnant man (http://www.malepregnancy.com/)

EDIT: Intresting article (http://www.malepregnancy.com/mingwei/) on aforementioned site.

[HystericalParoxysm]

That site is a performance art piece, missy harries. The female uterus is specifically made to provide a proper environment for a fetus, expanding over the course of the pregnancy, forming a placenta, and providing vital oxygen, nutrients, etc., to the fetus. There is no equivalent structure in a man, though I guess it -might- be possible for a uterus to be transplanted into a man - or there are some people born with chromosome disorders who may outwardly appear to be male, but may have some internal female organs including perhaps a functional uterus.

I think we're getting a little bit off the topic here though.

[missy harries]

Haaaaaa, I'm such a doink! :faceslap: Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_pregnancy)

I still stand by my 'if they can do it in a test tube' though.
I don't really think male pregnancy is too off topic though since a lot of men really do want to experiance child birth and a big part of that wanting comes from how they feel about they're sexuallity. i.e. a lot of men who feel or think they are women want the whole pregnancy/birth/child rearing experience.

[HystericalParoxysm]

It's probably -eventually- possible, just not possible with our current technology. Not sure why men would want to do it unless it was something like a gay couple that just really wanted to do the whole thing themselves... being pregnant sucks.

[missy harries]

Well, I used to be a late night person and you can get some intresting late night tv regarding sex and sexuallity, there was one program I remember watching regarding sex change and sexuallity. Basically there was a guy who felt he was born into the wrong body, he was physically a man be he felt he should have been a women hence the hormone therapy and a sex change (they actually showed that operation and explained how it worked........), but he stated that even after the transormation into femaledom he still didn't 'fully feel' like a women because he could not be pregnant or give birth and he needed that to feel 'whole 'especially since he was attrected to men and fully belived that 'his right as a woman' was being denied. It's intresting to note though that he did save some of his sperm.

[katy perry]

I think we're getting a little bit off the topic here though.

I disagree. I think the subject of males becoming pregnant and giving birth is relevant to 'What factors into its definition.'

Gay males can be just as effeminate as females and want the same things they want. The same goes for females. I once knew a lesbian she was big and muscular and manly with short hair. She worked in refuse collection for a living, you know emptying heavy bins into the back of a garbage truck.

[wickedblue]

Gender performance is not sexuality. They are not equal. A woman could be more "masculine" in her gender performance and be heterosexual just the same as a man could be "feminine" in his gender performance and be heterosexual. The false idea that only lesbian women act masculine and only gay men act feminine is a stereotype.

I could be wrong about your meaning, katy perry, and if so I apologize. Your post just read to me like you were suggesting that her being manly and lesbian were somehow correlated.

Which I think is important to this topic. It's important to realize and remember that gender performance has nothing to do with sexuality.

I don't know that there is a clear answer to the OP's original question.I do not believe that most humans are clearly 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual or equally bisexual. Sexuality is fluid and can change over the course of a lifetime. And sometimes, especially for those who feel ashamed of their sexuality, they may live out their entire life performing heterosexuality while never feeling like they are truly romantically or sexually attracted to the opposite sex so there's a lot to consider.

My personal opinion on it is this: whatever a person identifies as, is what that person is, and it's really not up to me or anyone else to police their sexual identity to make sure they have had the appropriate amount of sexual experiences to know who they are.

[katy perry]

Gender performance is not sexuality. They are not equal. A woman could be more "masculine" in her gender performance and be heterosexual just the same as a man could be "feminine" in his gender performance and be heterosexual. The false idea that only lesbian women act masculine and only gay men act feminine is a stereotype.

I could be wrong about your meaning, katy perry, and if so I apologize. Your post just read to me like you were suggesting that her being manly and lesbian were somehow correlated.

Which I think is important to this topic. It's important to realize and remember that gender performance has nothing to do with sexuality.

I don't know that there is a clear answer to the OP's original question.I do not believe that most humans are clearly 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual or equally bisexual. Sexuality is fluid and can change over the course of a lifetime. And sometimes, especially for those who feel ashamed of their sexuality, they may live out their entire life performing heterosexuality while never feeling like they are truly romantically or sexually attracted to the opposite sex so there's a lot to consider.

My personal opinion on it is this: whatever a person identifies as, is what that person is, and it's really not up to me or anyone else to police their sexual identity to make sure they have had the appropriate amount of sexual experiences to know who they are.

Yes, what you are saying is correct not all gay females are masculine and not all gay males are feminine. If I suggested gender personality factored into sexuality I didn't mean to. I also know two women who are quite girly and are very much in love with each other.

I was trying to illustarate a point that some gay male couples want to have a baby themselves, so I feel this issue factors into what goes into a persons sexuality, and discussing it is not 'going off topic'.

[Rafe Weisz]

Interpretation: Sexual orientation that deviates from heterosexuality, or homosexuality, is evil. Homosexuals (people who perform homosexual acts) do evil things and thus are punished. If there are smart people, the smart people would know how to rid the evil or dissolve the evil by understanding sexual orientations.


No, homosexuals are not evil. They are just the confused ones, the ones that need to be helped. The victims if you prefer that word. I'm afraid to tell you I'm sure the evil people behind the "tons of genders" idea are straight.

[kiwi_tea]

I'm afraid to tell you I'm sure the evil people behind the "tons of genders" idea are straight.

Biologists?

Come, come now. They're not evil. They just like slicing things.

[missy harries]

No, homosexuals are not evil. They are just the confused ones, the ones that need to be helped.

What makes you think they're confused? I'm pretty sure they don't want or need your help either......

[pinketamine]

Of couse they are confused, I mean.... they are having sex with people of their same sex, it is obvious that they don't know what they're doing.

/sarcasm


It is tedious to see that people out there simply don't understand that homosexuals are not confused people that are just lost and need someone to tell they want they really want (which obviously is being heterosexual and having a happy family with as many kids as god wants). Seriously, it does not affect your lives, why can't you just leave people alone?

[Yellow_fin]

sexuality is a label its a definition we give our selves, its comforting to know we belong in a group labled by society, but sometimes we are not correct in our self evaluation. we are not really anything, we are just human and our sense of identity does not really exist apart from in our minds, i believe that the shedding of (or rather realisation of this fact is called zen)

to be truely happy you must stop thinking about what you are because its all in your mind. "I" does not exist.

in terms of the sims sexuality is nras master controller :)