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Instructor
Original Poster
#1 Old 5th Sep 2020 at 3:33 PM
Default Will EA eventually make TS4 unmoddable?
Seeing as how this latest patch has been absolutely disastrous mod-breaking wise, one can't help but think that EA is doing this on purpose to try and trip up mod developers like Sacrifical or TurboDriver. This kind of leads to some bothersome projections for the future. Could it be that one day, EA could change the code of TS4 in a patch that will make the game totally unmoddable?

I honestly hope the chances of this happening are low.
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Mad Poster
#2 Old 5th Sep 2020 at 4:32 PM
Nope, that would kill the game, and people would not go above that patch level until an unofficial workaround is figured out, like how most people try to stay on 1.67 on TS3 (despite the official patch level being 1.69).

Of course, EA is doing a perfectly good job unintentionally killing the game itself by piling buggy untested content onto an unprepared foundation, like what happened towards TS3's lifespan.

I can totally see them trying to do that on TS5, though- possibly pursuing an 'official' TS5 Mod/CC marketplace like in Second Life.
dodgy builder
#3 Old 5th Sep 2020 at 5:12 PM
Quote: Originally posted by jje1000
Nope, that would kill the game, and people would not go above that patch level until an unofficial workaround is figured out, like how most people try to stay on 1.67 on TS3 (despite the official patch level being 1.69).

Of course, EA is doing a perfectly good job unintentionally killing the game itself by piling buggy untested content onto an unprepared foundation, like what happened towards TS3's lifespan.

I can totally see them trying to do that on TS5, though- possibly pursuing an 'official' TS5 Mod/CC marketplace like in Second Life.


It depends on how much they actually care about their modding community. I fear it's not that important. Everything costs money, and defending a modding community not of their own making to shareholders might not be that easy.
Smeg Head
#4 Old 5th Sep 2020 at 7:19 PM Last edited by coolspear1 : 5th Sep 2020 at 8:06 PM.
That's not how it works. For TS4 they use Python (Which Script Mods are made to work with.) And the general game files are mostly made up of XMLs (Which Tuning Mods are made from.) The two mods you exampled use both formats.

For Maxis to totally change this TS4 system, so that all mods are broken beyond use and not even salvageable because it's an entirely new format the mods cannot work with, it would be the equivalent of making a new game. Maxis will not be doing that to TS4 anytime soon. Ever. (Sure didn't they introduce a newer Python system nearly two years ago. That's the closet they've ever come to such a massive overhaul. Didn't stop modders, did it?) If they were going to put that much work into it, it may as well be for a TS5, seeing as it would be that much work required.

As long as there are third party apps and programmes to enable the extracting and editing of TS4 game files, there will always be mods - and modders. Well, for as long as modders can tolerate these frequent, bastard patches breaking their mods, that is. Or the game devs just aren't producing anything worthwhile modding any more. Take your pick.

To render any game impossible to mod, is virtually impossible itself. If a game is so popular, and so many players would like the chance of adding CC stuff and mods, then there are bound to be third party programmers who will make the apps to do so. A producer like EA would have to try to make it an illegal practice, to stop all forms of mods. But as they themselves are only third party users of Python and XML formats, they have no right to try and make altering Python scripts or XMLs illegal - the content of an XML as intellectual property not withstanding - they don't own the format. Not that they would anyway. CC and mods are a huge money-spinner for this game, and they know which side their bread is buttered on.

"Become a government informer. Betray your family and friends. Fabulous prizes to be won!" Red Dwarf - Back to Reality.

Find all my TS4 mods and lots here: Main Website - simsasylum.com My Section - coolspear's Mods & Lots
Instructor
Original Poster
#5 Old 5th Sep 2020 at 11:49 PM Last edited by fraroc : 6th Sep 2020 at 4:47 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by jje1000
Nope, that would kill the game, and people would not go above that patch level until an unofficial workaround is figured out, like how most people try to stay on 1.67 on TS3 (despite the official patch level being 1.69).

Of course, EA is doing a perfectly good job unintentionally killing the game itself by piling buggy untested content onto an unprepared foundation, like what happened towards TS3's lifespan.

I can totally see them trying to do that on TS5, though- possibly pursuing an 'official' TS5 Mod/CC marketplace like in Second Life.


Or making TS5 a steam exclusive so that mods and CC can only be done through the Workshop.

I could see that happening, especially if EA wants to make TS5 purely to compete with Paralives when it eventually comes out.
Test Subject
#6 Old 6th Sep 2020 at 1:05 PM
No. The way EA does things they'd find a way to totally screw that up and somehow make mods and CC work even better.
Mad Poster
#7 Old 6th Sep 2020 at 3:41 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Volvenom
It depends on how much they actually care about their modding community. I fear it's not that important. Everything costs money, and defending a modding community not of their own making to shareholders might not be that easy.

Feel like Maxis would care, while EA can be stupid enough to drop the mod creation support of the game. Lindsay and the likes said that's the most important thing of the community, is that they loved the creativity of modders or something along the lines.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Field Researcher
#8 Old 6th Sep 2020 at 4:25 PM
Quote:
No. The way EA does things they'd find a way to totally screw that up and somehow make mods and CC work even better.


Funny. But that's probably more true than not seeing how they have acted in the past.
Test Subject
#9 Old 6th Sep 2020 at 7:45 PM
Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
Or making TS5 a steam exclusive so that mods and CC can only be done through the Workshop.

I could see that happening, especially if EA wants to make TS5 purely to compete with Paralives when it eventually comes out.


Even if they did bungle the coding so that you could only use (supposedly) Steam Workshop, there are worshop downloaders. *And* even then you could still upload mods to Nexus (for example). There are lots of examples of steam games that have off-site mods. Such as Conan Exiles, Raft, and No Mans Sky.
Instructor
#10 Old 8th Sep 2020 at 6:51 AM
I feel like modding literally saved the Sims 4. My theory has been that the franchise was in the dirt and then a certain mod came out and it started getting sales again.

EA certainly isn't smart but I think they recognize that modding helps sell their product and won't do a lot to compromise that.
One Minute Ninja'd
#11 Old 9th Sep 2020 at 1:25 PM
I'm so glad I haven't updated in months. I think I'm still on 1.6.2. So all my mods work fine and I don't waste time hunting down the latest updated mods released. I've been perfectly happy as i can still grab some cc if I want, and leave Origin in offline mode despite having the no automatic update option in Origin. I sleep well at night, and my sims sleep well knowing they'll still wake up in the morning. The only way that changes is if they brought out some amazing GP or EP I had to have. Fortunately, this is EA,, so that event is unlikely, so no worries for me
Mad Poster
#12 Old 9th Sep 2020 at 3:09 PM
Quote: Originally posted by James009
and then a certain mod came out and it started getting sales again.

Nothing like sex to sell a product.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Field Researcher
#13 Old 12th Sep 2020 at 1:49 PM
Quote: Originally posted by James009
I feel like modding literally saved the Sims 4. My theory has been that the franchise was in the dirt and then a certain mod came out and it started getting sales again.

EA certainly isn't smart but I think they recognize that modding helps sell their product and won't do a lot to compromise that.


.....And yet with each update and new introduction, mods and/or CC is broken. As Spock would say, "Fascinating"
Forum Resident
#14 Old 13th Sep 2020 at 1:23 AM
They would be fools to do so. The only reason I'm still playing the game is mods -- and not just the salacious ones like Basemental or WW.
Scholar
#15 Old 13th Sep 2020 at 9:13 AM
Quote: Originally posted by eskie227
I'm so glad I haven't updated in months. I think I'm still on 1.6.2. So all my mods work fine and I don't waste time hunting down the latest updated mods released. I've been perfectly happy as i can still grab some cc if I want, and leave Origin in offline mode despite having the no automatic update option in Origin. I sleep well at night, and my sims sleep well knowing they'll still wake up in the morning. The only way that changes is if they brought out some amazing GP or EP I had to have. Fortunately, this is EA,, so that event is unlikely, so no worries for me


I see it the same way and have been turning off the automatic updates. Yeah, both Origin and the game. from time to time I have to go online to use the "Repair" function (a thing that forces me to update Origin) and every time I fear that some updates will be made to my game without me knowing. It really bugs the *beep* out of me that I have to launch Origin to play the game at all but I guess that's something that cannot be changed ... I have been in contact whit the EA customer support a few times (chat) and the first thing the asks is that I use mods or not. "Because we do not support mods". It makes me want to ask why TS4 does have a Mods folder in the first place but I guess sometimes its better to remain silence. If I was not using my beloved Furry mod (from Savestatecomics) I would have uninstalled this game a long time ago. But that's a different story... So I rest my case...
Field Researcher
#16 Old 18th Sep 2020 at 1:14 AM
It always fascinates me when I read of someone who doesn't use mods. I would love to know how you can play the game long-term and not use mods. I'm sorry, I just can't do it. My hat's off to those who can. And all those fantastically great mod makers have my unabashed admiration and devotion (yeah, I'm looking at you Deaderpool and LittleMsSams).
Test Subject
#17 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 12:57 AM
I feel like the windows and doors thing is to get them into position to offer the capabilities the Paralives team are working on. Which can only be good for Sims 4 in the long run - even if it's painful for the modders in the near term.
Lab Assistant
#18 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 7:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by dikosay
.....And yet with each update and new introduction, mods and/or CC is broken. As Spock would say, "Fascinating"

That is not because EA is sabotaging mods and CC on purpose, but because they haven't planned ahead and because much of the functionality in the game isn't modular enough.

What happens with the CC is that every time EA decides that a new feature or aspect of the game will affect or "interact" with a type of objects in some way (e.g. cats can scratch furniture, vampires cannot see their reflections in mirrors, electric appliances don't work off the grid, etc), they're doing the equivalent of adding another pin to the "electric sockets" that enable that type of object in the game. Consequently the "plugs" of all such objects have to be replaced so that they can be plugged into the new type of "socket". This is true for both the game's own objects and for CC that we create. The game's programmers must realistically be faced with the same challenge of having to update everything as CC creators are, but probably have help from various tools that automatically repackage all objects for them - much like the batch fixes that Sims4Studio add whenever it turns out that an update breaks a certain type of object, I guess.

This could have been avoided if EA had planned out the game in advance and added all these "pins" to the "sockets" right from the start. Then our CC could also have had those "pins" (although perhaps not functioning perfectly, since we might not have known in advance what each and every pin was for - but at least it wouldn't crash the game). But in most cases, the new functionality - the new "pins" - is added as they go.


With script mods the problem is similar, but here the comparison is more like the electrical wiring rather than the appliances and their sockets. Since the game's structure is not modular enough, some mods (like for instance those that affect the user interface, or make use of the phone system [which seems to contain a lot more functionality than you would expect]) do the equivalent of replacing a whole section of wiring with its own "cloned" version. But then with each new expansion EA adds more functionality that somehow ties into this "wiring" - its like they're adding a few more outlets, or change the voltage in that section, or introduce a new type of wiring with better insulation. The old, cloned "wiring" (the mods) doesn't have these aspects, so when you try to insert it in place of EA's new, updated wiring, things break. You're experiencing short-circuits and other problems because the mods don't have the capacity to deal with the new requirements and expectations.

Here it would have been very useful if the game's structure had had the equivalent of numerous USB ports throughout all the wiring. Instead of replacing an entire section of wiring, you could just have attached your mod to a "USB port" and then it would have continued to work even when the wiring was replaced. (This is kind of what an injector mod does. I think we had more of those back in The Sims 3, although we have some injection in The Sims 4 as well, but only for tuning mods I believe). This would also have been extremely useful when you have several mods that want to make use of the same functionality/"wiring". But a looser structure like that would have slowed down the game a bit, plus that it could have introduced numerous other problems and dilemmas that EA simply didn't want to deal with (and are under no obligation to deal with).


So, yes, mods and CC do break with each update and introduction, but since the game's structure wasn't made flexible enough from the start, this is pretty much unavoidable now. The only way to avoid it would be to never add new functionality to existing objects at all, and make no further changes to the user interface. Expansions would be limited to mainly stuff packs, with perhaps the occasional game pack (but with reduced functionality, and no new lifeforms or lifestates).
Mad Poster
#19 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 8:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by smellincoffee
They would be fools to do so. The only reason I'm still playing the game is mods -- and not just the salacious ones like Basemental or WW.

Basemental is the only reason I play TS4 if I am to be honest. I like playing as drug addicts. Sometimes they own nightclubs. Which may or may not be relevant to their drug addiction...

WW isn't a big part of my gameplay, I have it installed but rarely use it.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Instructor
#20 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 2:04 PM Last edited by Hamishmc : 19th Sep 2020 at 2:15 PM.
If the game was built on an Online base they wouldn't have wanted mods would they?

I wouldn't be surprised if mods for any Sims 5 would have to be agreed with EA/Maxis before being allowed in the game, particularly if the main part of it is kept in the Cloud like 2020 Flight Simulator is.

From what I've read from them in the past they want everybody on every platform to be able to play their games (via the new Microsoft app). That would definitely be downloading what their machine can deal with from the Cloud, which could be in terrabytes by the time the game came out.

Windows 10 is already wanting permission from me to let Sims4, 3 and Sims Launcher be changed in any way. (latest Windows 10 insider update). You have to "allow" them in the security advanced options. Maybe that's why some packs don't appear in the game when downloaded.
Field Researcher
#21 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 2:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by letrax
So, yes, mods and CC do break with each update and introduction, but since the game's structure wasn't made flexible enough from the start, this is pretty much unavoidable now. The only way to avoid it would be to never add new functionality to existing objects at all, and make no further changes to the user interface. Expansions would be limited to mainly stuff packs, with perhaps the occasional game pack (but with reduced functionality, and no new lifeforms or lifestates).


Hey, I totally get where you're coming from, and no doubt the way you stated it is the way it happens. But you would think that after 3 tries with this game (The Sims, The Sims2, The Sims3) Maxis would have learned all that you have mentioned. Try number one and try number 2, such things are understandable because technology was poorer and they were still learning. Try number 3 and try number 4 - Unacceptable. I mean, they had drivable cars and ridable horses in try number 3 for god's sake. Why didn't that carry over to try number 4 ???

Instead, we got packs that makes it possible for sims to steal from each other in the name of N.A.P., and The Force. As I said, as in the eternal wisdom of Spock: "Fascinating"!
Lab Assistant
#22 Old 19th Sep 2020 at 7:01 PM
Quote: Originally posted by dikosay
Hey, I totally get where you're coming from, and no doubt the way you stated it is the way it happens. But you would think that after 3 tries with this game (The Sims, The Sims2, The Sims3) Maxis would have learned all that you have mentioned. Try number one and try number 2, such things are understandable because technology was poorer and they were still learning. Try number 3 and try number 4 - Unacceptable.

Oh, I totally agree with that. While I understand that some features were difficult to foresee when the game was originally designed, I find it incomprehensible, almost unforgivable, that EA, at the start, didn't bother to include even the basic tags to allow for future functionality like swimwear, summer and winter clothing, pets, and at least a few lifestates/occults. After three existing iterations of the game, those are features that we know pretty much for certain will be included in the game eventually. And it would have helped a lot if at least the creators of custom content had been given the means to set the proper clothing flags right away, instead of having to go back to update their CC whenever a new expansion or an update relevant to that CC is released. Now that extended set of future clothing flags wouldn't have done that much to solve the problem with broken CC, but the fact that not even these were made available from the start signals an extreme, almost unfathomable lack of foresight from EA's side. Or more realistically, a severe lack of consideration for the designers and users of custom content.

So EA's definitely not in the market to make things easy for the modders and the CC creators, that's for certain. But I don't imagine that there are any deliberate attempts to make things harder for us either. They're just so focused on structuring things in a way that make sense to them that they don't stop to ponder whether it will be beneficial or problematic for the hobbyists. They don't care because they don't have to.
We are to EA like those birds that accompany rhinos, hippos, elephants and giraffes, and live off the ticks, insects and other parasites on their skin. The relationship is beneficial to both the birds and the larger animals, but the larger animal hardly notices them. It doesn't have to - it simply continues along its own path irrespective of the birds on its back.
Field Researcher
#23 Old 20th Sep 2020 at 3:38 PM
Quote: Originally posted by letrax
They don't care because they don't have to.

THAT, my friend, says it all.
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