I've been able to repro this and will look into it. I noticed that your rowhouse has a couple of fence posts on the left porch - is that because you edited the lot after shrinking?

Yes, I changed this in the test version based on your suggestion. If I decide to keep it, then I obviously need to update the tutorial. (One excellent reason for getting rid of this change... )

I think that you misunderstood. I have never really considered allowing lot sizes which are not multiples of 10. If a person wants to expand 5 lot tiles in one direction, then I expect them to either expand or shrink the lot 5 lot tiles in the other direction.

I changed my mind about that in a later post. I think it will interfere with stitching the lot into the terrain.

Double clicking on a neighborhood or lot should be identical to clicking on it, then clicking on the Next button.

The LE shouldn't be shutting down in the middle of the process... unfortunately, this will also be difficult to debug, unless we can reproduce the behavior.

I really don't know. I suppose that it could be the Z-value.

It's also possible that EA coded two different algorithms for the two situations, and the lot bin logic is better. In general, that would be a silly thing to do, but when developers are rushed they can do silly things.

I've also noticed that I sometimes have problems placing an expanded lot at a specific location in the neighborhood. However, if I move it somewhere else, I can then move it back to the original location without any problems. Unfortunately, this will require some research to come up with a fix.

[Update:]
I just had a thought... I wonder whether the game changes the lot whenever it is placed or moved in the neighborhood?

I could see the developers adjusting all of the height values in a lot file to try to make a particular location on the lot be at a relative height of 0. There are a lot of rotations to be taken into account, but I can imagine the game wanting to keep the "top left" vertex of the lot at a relative height of 0. That's "top left", based on the rotation of the neighborhood, the rotation of the lot within the neighborhood (Orientation), and the rotation of the lot within the lot package (U11).

This could explain why some lots are more difficult to place at some times than others... if the "top left" of the lot is at relative height 0, then the game might find the lot easier to place.

This should be relatively easy to verify. Ah, more research!

Inge, this might be the answer to your question. The game is already storing the Top and Left values for a lot, along with the Z-value for that lot. As a developer, it makes sense to me that the game would want the Z-value to be the one for the Top Left vertex.

In a standard rotation neighborhood (ie, Top Left is at the top left of the screen) and with a standard rotation lot (ie, the rotation of the lot when it comes out of the lot bin), can we predict the behavior based on the lot rotation (U11)? IE, the top left vertex of the array, once it is rotated based on its U11 value.

If this is true, then lots with U11 = 0 (left) and U11 = 1 (top) should be easier to place, in general. This is because the road for those lots is at the top left vertex of the array, and roads are already likely to be at a height of 0.
[End Update:]

This is because there is no way to specify the type of data stored in 4 bytes within the neighborhood package. The game will always interpret those 4 bytes as an integer, no matter how you typed them in.

What makes you think that EA won't have tiny lot templates for TS3?

So, are you saying that just shrinking a lot can make the lot go underground, based on the existing Z-value and lot terrain? If so, this is a serious problem which the LotExpander will have to address before I can consider releasing it. Could you please post the original lot, so that I can try to repro this?

There's no reason to believe that the U10 and U11 values have changed in any way, although I suppose that it never hurts to check.

This was the original lot that I lost. I should have expected it really, what else could the LE do? I simply placed a nominally 3x3 template, and using the digging tool sunk it all a long way down, including the road. Then I levelled out the bottom. I left the lot where it was and saved.

Using the LE, I shrank it on all four edges. That means it no longer had its edge reference points.

My intention was to then go back into the game, pick it up and put it in the bin. I expected then that when I placed the lot in a new location, it would simply be a square of lowered ground and the hood terrain would slope down to meet it.

All that went wrong is that when I loaded the game, I could not see the lot, as presumably it was beneath the surface. I still expect that had I been able to see and select it, the rest of the experiment would have worked fine.

Why should you stop people doing this? It can't be done by accident, I had to use cheats to sink the road. Once you have implemented the "level road" tickbox, this will be prevented. Hopefully the LE will have the facility to level the road of a lot retrospectively without changing its size, for those people who lose a lot doing a silly experiment like this

My guess is that EA uses a runtime formula to curve the neighborhood terrain, but uses the actual lot height values to curve the lot terrain. This is why the blue disconnects occur.

The real question is whether it can happen when shrinking a lot with a large dip between the road and the back of the lot. If the lot is shrunk at the front, then the lot expander will leave the relative heights in the lot alone and move the lot forward to meet the road, thus potentially placing it underground.

This whole issue obviously needs more research. I'm currently very unclear about how the game responds to shrunken lots on hilly terrain.

I'll make a normal lot on a natural terrain slope that slopes down towards the back, and shrink it at the front and let you know. I am expecting it will have enough anchorage points to stay visible, but you never know...

Inge--I'm may be wasteing space here, sorry if I am. I'm not sure what you wish to accomplish with your lower lot discussed here....

I had the thought: what if instead of lowering the lot on all sides in one step, which caused the lot to disappear, if you lowered it in two steps: lowered one side, get it into the bin, then place on terrain again and lower the other side?

You've probably already tried this...

Well, I finally caught up with this thread and I think that I may be more confused than ever. Here is my current work list for shrinking lots:

1) Investigate and fix missing fence posts from post #440. Can anyone verify whether this has always been true, even with Andi's original LotExpander? If not, does anyone know when this started happening (ie, version of LotExpander)? - [Update:] Fixed

2) Attempt to reproduce missing streetlamp from post #452. If reproducible, then investigate and fix. - [Update:] Not a LE issue.

3) Create an "advanced features" screen with a "reset to defaults" button. - [Update:] Done

4) Make the "over the road" checkbox an advanced feature. Default: No. - [Update:] Done

5) Make an advanced option to move portals, mailbox, phone booth and trash cans. Default: Yes. - [Update:] Done

6) Make an advanced option to allow negative values for lot expansion (ie, shrinking of lots). Default: No. (Until this works better, I don't want people to think of shrinking lots as a standard option. Given the likelihood of crashing issues, this may never be a standard option.) - [Update:] May not be necessary.

7) Fix the Z-values of portals, mailbox, etc. to match their new locations.

8) Investigate the neighborhood Z-value and it's effect on shrunken lots.

9) Flatten roads for shrunken lots, using research above. Note that I might be able to implement some road flattening without the research, but the research is necessary to make this work well.

10) Make an advanced option to flatten roads. Default: Yes. We may also want an advanced option to allow the user to choose between various Z-value strategies for the road.

11) Investigate smoothing of lot edges. If feasible and useful, implement this feature. Note that any work done to smooth lot edges should be usable when I get the neighborhood terrain. So, this won't be wasted effort.

12) Make an advanced option to smooth lot edges. Default: Yes.

Does anyone have anything that I've missed?

[Update:]

Oops, found one:

13) Investigate whether there is any issue of shrunken lots disappearing under the neighborhood terrain. If so, resolve. Will require neighborhood Z-value research. - [Update:] Not an issue.

[Update:]

Found another:

14) Investigate the feasibility of warning users if terrain being deleted is not empty. This may not be feasible because many objects which are partially on the area being deleted still seem to work alright. Example: windows, roofs, ...

In order for this research to be useful, we need to try all 4 U11 values and all 4 Orientation values - 16 values in total... or at least a strategic sampling of these.

I believe that Inge is offering to do some research for me, to determine whether a shrunken lot can disappear without too much effort on the user's part.

This may be an issue with deleting non-empty terrain. It's possible that the streetlamp's "sphere of influence" now starts off of the lot.

Mootilda, what is the significance of the U11? Is that which way the road is running? I want to know how I can make sure I create one of each.

Edit: It's ok I worked it out - it's the orientation they were first made in.

I think your list looks like a fair representation of what we've been talking about in this thread. The only thing I want to say about the smoothing is that the only way I have been able to make sure I had no gashes in a shrunk lot was to ensure it was straight between each major vertex at the intended new edges - I could change direction of slope *at* a major vertex. But the tiniest curve made out of minor vertices has so far remained as a tiny blue line (or larger gash). It may be the small price we have to pay.

Mutantbunny, yes I was just doing a bit of "extremes testing" lol I can't really imagine anyone needing to make that type of lot in the game.

Yes, U11 is the location of the "front" of the lot in the lot file (ie, the normal road location). If you are creating all of these lots in one neighborhood, then adding an empty lot template facing in each direction will suffice. Once a lot template is added to a neighborhood, the U11 value is locked. If a lot is subsequently rotated in the neighborhood, the U11 value remains constant, but the Orientation value changes.

The easiest way that I have found to determine whether two lots have different U11 values (other than editing the neighborhood in SimPE, of course) is to put the two lots into the lot catalog. When you first take a lot out of the lot catalog and try to place it in the neighborhood, the U11 value dictates the direction that the arrow is pointing. When you rotate a lot from the lot catalog, so that the arrow points in a different direction, then you are setting the Orientation.

I believe that if your neighborhood is in the "standard" rotation, then the technique above will actually tell you the U11 value of the lot. I think that the standard rotation of the neighborhood is the one that you get when creating a brand new neighborhood. The top left corner of the neighborhood has coordinates of X=0 Y=0 and a U11=0 lot will face left, a U11=1 lot will face the top of the screen, etc.

I really need to verify the information in the last paragraph... although I believe this to be true, I've never actually checked. The whole neighborhood may be shifted slightly (counterclockwise?) when it's created.

Oh, this is different from what I heard someone saying earlier... about the terrain not being a straight line. sigh, can't seem to find the post.

If you're right, then that makes the smoothing function incredibly simple - a straight line is the easiest formula to implement.

I think that I now understand your earlier post:

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?p=1800273

Sorry that I didn't understand what you were trying to say earlier.

(Missing fence posts)



Yes, I fixed all the fences after shrinking. Except for that one halfwall on the right front porch, which is unfixable.

I also see a bunch of fenceposts missing on top of both porches.

Well I've got my 16 matrixed lots made, and am ready to start shrinking, but I have been overtaken by bedtime and will leave that to look forward to tomorrow :D

Thank you so much for this. It's important to know whether this is going to be a problem.

Yes, poof. And the one on the left edge also disappeared at some point while I was moving sims in and out to test the taxi video. The lot on the right side still has one, last time I checked. They are disappeared in the n'hood view as well as from inside the lot. I did move a sim into the right-hand lot too, just long enough to see the video, and that lamp is so far okay.

The box I shifted to fix the video was the dominant one, in that case.
I was sure I had seen the paperboy deliver his paper at the second mailbox once - maybe when there was no room beside the first one.
I do like the realism of your placement, and it's easy to ignore or fix the video depending upon preference.

Re pillows and newspaper: I think the BGS automatically puts in patches that exist in the fullgame, and I should have it installed there.

Sorry, since then I am carefully deleting nothing in case you ask for it later!

I am currently automatically putting all LE lots in and out of the catalogue, then entering them, to check whether they are corrupted. So far, so good. No crashes on my latest bunch.

This has only happened that one time so far.

It can't have happened then, surely, since it is a result of shrinking lots, which couldn't be done by the original LE. I do still have the original version, if you want something tried.


Good plan - I have never used it, since I like to share my lots.
I presume you mean that LE will move them for you, unless you choose the advanced option.

Mootilda isn't the only one having trouble keeping up with this thread. I'm mostly ignoring the more technical stuff - I figure the rest of you are better placed to understand what you are experimenting with.

If the shrinking becomes an advanced feature, I'm glad I am getting to use it (even though I'm really not an advanced user). I've been wishing for so long, and it's exciting to have it available.

Perhaps I misunderstood what plasticbox meant by "extending a lot"? I'm going to go test this and see if I can determine when this happens.

[Update:]

OK, I confirmed that this does occur when expanding a lot. What's more, it would appear to be in Sorcerer's version, which implies that it was in Andi's version (Sorcerer's primary change was to port from .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 - certainly no code changes that would have broken the fence posts).

Unfortunately, the ability to shrink lots makes this a more pressing issue, since we can end up with lots which can't be fixed, when a half wall on the edge of the lot is broken.

I've been playing with this, and now I can't make it happen! I'm using UptoNL in the BGS.

I used the original LE to extend a lot with a variety of fencing on it. No problem, fences fine.

I used the latest LE to shrink a 3x1 by one on the left side, well away from the fencing. I finalised the shrink, put it in and out of the catalogue. No problem, fences good. Then I shrank it by 1 again on the left. This overlapped some of the fencing - the posts remained, both on the lot and on the edge where there is no longer a lot. The middles of the fencing disappeared where it was shrunk, but fencing on the lot was fine. Catalogue check fine. Removing a piece of fence on the lot boundary left the post behind. Pictures below.

I expanded another copy of the lot at the back (new LE). All fine.
Added foundation and a wall, in case the problem is related to the level of building. shrank the lot from the back. All fine, catalogue check too.

Moved a sim into the lot. Reduced the lot to 1x1 (left -2). Entering the lot, the sim had completely vanished! (She had been standing on the side which was removed). 'Go here' commands failed to make her appear, but once the paper had been delivered, I told her to read it and she appeared beside it. Throughout all this, the fencing did not change.

I dunno. It isn't just that rowhouse, because it happened on the built lot I rotated yesterday. And it isn't when the fence is at the edge, or gets cut off, or is inside the lockable grid area. All those variables happened among the three lots I have just tried, and the fences stayed okay every time.

Have you had any luck, Mootilda?

Ah, we're cross-posting. Did you expand your lot somewhere different maybe? I only expanded mine to the back. I also have to stop mucking about for a bit, school's out. I'll be back after dinnertime.

Lol, I guess most of us are having problems to keep up with the thread...
so, how about, we have to state out the experiment, the goal, the results clearly probably in point form, so we can all read them faster before missing certain points and getting confused in the process?


[build mode - partition infos]



I also have missing fence-post problems for my row house after shrunk from 30x40 into 10x20. I didn't shrank the front but twice for the back. The sides ar both trimmed by 10 lot tiles. But I've figured how to solve it in my case.

Solution 1:
just use one fence and drag it to the missing posts to recover them without deleting the fences or half-walls.
The additional fence can reactivate the fence to reform. This is a property of modular objects in game.
Lol, Mootilda, may leave it as a feature for making postless fences even if this can be saved. Just 1 more advanced option... :D

Solution 2:
Lol, use a fence-based default replacement on that half-wall to build the post back.
namely, make a default replacement clone of that half wall, turn it into a fence alone, and then use that clone to replace in-game half-wall. Rebuild the halfwall, and then remove the modded clone. Voila.
So, please tell which half-wall it is. or if you can to clone the original one out and send it to me, I think it can help. or if you know someone to help do his, go ahead. or, you know how to do it yourself...
Lol, but, this can only be an experiment coz fence-based replacement failed for wall1 walls to be built at the edge in the base game.

wiki
http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=AB4BA572

http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...1&postcount=466
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...7&postcount=499
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=513
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=517
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=532
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...5&postcount=534
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...0&postcount=562

I haven't done extensive research on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was dependent upon the U11 value and where you are expanding or shrinking the lot. I was using UpToOFB.