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aelflaed
Alchemist
#501 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 8:41 AM Last edited by aelflaed : 19th Nov 2007 at 1:43 AM.
Default rotation, U11, shrinking
Quote: Originally posted by Mootilda
I haven't done extensive research on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was dependent upon the U11 value and where you are expanding or shrinking the lot. I was using UpToOFB.


My rotated lot from yesterday was expanded on the right, turned and then shrunk on the left. And lost the fence posts. The lot was U11 = 03, changed to 02.

Today's lots, now that I check, are all the same - U11 = 01. I was sure I'd put at least one of them on the other side of the road at least, but it seems I did not.

And I keep forgetting to mention that the last streetlamp from the rowhouses disappeared today when I entered the lot.
Inge Jones
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#502 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 9:13 AM
This isn't pertinent to testing, but I think in real play one would tend to place the lampposts after placing the lots, so that the distances were more realistic. So apart from wanting to solve the mystery of why objects disappear, this particular thing shouldn't be a show stopper. Even with the fences, if the LE is left with some things that can't be solved, people will get to know and share workarounds (eg "row houses need to have their fences made after placement and you can't use half-walls instead of fences")
"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
aelflaed
Alchemist
#503 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 11:36 AM Last edited by aelflaed : 19th Nov 2007 at 1:46 AM.
Default fenceposts, edgebuilding, shrinking
I've done some more lots, on a different orientation.

Community lot, U10, 11 = 02,01
Shrink right and rear, fenceposts gone.

Res lot, U10,11 = 02,01
Shrink left, fences okay.

Comm lot, U10,11 = 02,01
Expanded with original LE at rear, fenceposts gone. And a funny blue bit, not the usual gash, in the back corner. It was steep behind the lot, though.

Res lot, U10,11 = 08,03
Shrink right, fences okay.

Res lot, U10,11 = 08,03
Shrink left and front, Fences okay
(used stone wall fence, with no obvious fenceposts, so maybe not valid?)

I get confused when I look at all that, but it might be clearer to you.

EDIT - I did another set, with a bit more attempt at efficiency.

All residential lots, all done with the new LE.

Jamaica - 08,03 - shrink rear, posts okay.
Venezuela - 08,03 - shrink right and front, posts gone.
Majorca - 08,03 - shrink left, posts gone. Photo attached - the wooden fence is affected, the others don't show. So, my earlier lot in this orientation was probably affected, but I couldn't see it.

Hawaii - 02,01 - extend rear. Posts gone.
Java - 02,01 - shrink rear. Posts gone.
Sumatra - 02,01 - shrink front. Fence okay. Road distorted.


This testing is by no means exhaustive or very efficiently managed, but...

Deductions -

The problem is in the original coding.
The stone and concrete fences without obvious endposts are not visibly affected, so no one will notice if you use those ones.

The 08,03 lots seem to accept changes at the rear and right sides, but not at the front and left.

The 02,01 lots seem to accept changes at the front and left edges, but not at the rear and right.

These are opposite, and the lots concerned are on opposite sides of the same road.

So, the other two orientations should have one set accepting changes at the rear and left, and the other accepting changes at the front and right sides.

Does all that sound reasonable, or am I being woolly-headed?
Screenshots
niol
Mad Poster
#504 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 4:13 PM Last edited by niol : 13th Nov 2007 at 6:09 AM.
Default [build mode - partition infos]
stone wall fences have no fence posts, so they can't be test indicator here and the results relying on them are invalid.
Mutantbunny
Forum Resident
#505 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 4:42 PM
Mootilda:

Finally got a chance to install net 2 and try running LE 1277. STILL will not run. It gives the continue option and then tries to 'start' (the active mouse icon is activated.)

I installed the most recent version of SimPE to try it on that. I've tried run as admin, run under different credintials, nada.

I don't know anything but here's my guess: I think maybe it is hanging/goes into a loop as it goes to search for the correct directory--which it can't find because the path is different in Vista. I tried to 'fool' it and made the correctly named folders as are present in Xp (doc and settings, owner, etc) but it wouldn't be fooled. If it is looking for reg key values, Maybe I could try faking those.....could it confuse Vista if I did that? I don't know.....
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#506 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 5:26 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Mutantbunny
Finally got a chance to install net 2 and try running LE 1277. STILL will not run. It gives the continue option and then tries to 'start' (the active mouse icon is activated.)
Let me give you a test version with some tracing messages, so that we can try to determine what's happening. My development machine is in an indeterminate state right now, so this may take a bit of time.
niol
Mad Poster
#507 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 5:54 PM Last edited by niol : 13th Nov 2007 at 6:13 AM.
Default [Lot (1x1)], [LA/LE - UI & versions tests]
[Lot (1x1)]

I just investigated andi 10x20 lot and confirmed that the wall graphs offsets are also made larger than the planned. After all, they're working. And this copy of Andi's lot had one of the 3D offsets remains 30 x30. But, these're no serious matter.

I've to say that out of all of my experiments and experiences, those values can be larger or the same. Surely, the same may save at least slightly more resources. But, if they're smaller, I can't assume the lot must function properly for the all the grids.

So now, I guess the 10x20 lot templates should be safe enough... Any doubt please, do tell.. Coz they can be used as standards for lot file comparisons as well as for release. People can use them to expand lots.


[LA/LE - UI & versions tests]

Out of the results from aelflaed, I believe the fence post got chopped in the lot-shrinking update.
But, we may have to confirm that with different versions of LE.
Inge Jones
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#508 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 6:42 PM
Here is the results of my test I started last night. Just open Main.htm from the unzipped directory. As long as all the rest of the files are in the same directory, it should find them.
Attached files:
File Type: zip  LotShrinkingAtRoad.zip (1.86 MB, 22 downloads) - View custom content
"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#509 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 6:43 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 22nd Oct 2007 at 10:18 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by niol
Out of the results from aelflaed, I believe the fence post got chopped in the lot-shrinking update.
But, we may have to confirm that with different versions of LE.
I've already confirmed that the problem has been in the LotExpander from the beginning (well, since V1.2.2, which is almost source code equivalent to V1.2.1).

There's no need for anyone to test this anymore. I have a repro case. I have confirmed that it occurs when a lot is either expanded or shrunk. I have also confirmed that the problem has been in the program since I took it over, which means that it's not something that I've broken.

Now, all that's left is to determine where the fence posts are stored and why the current LotExpander code isn't handling them. My suspicion is that this is a record type which the LE has never even tried to handle, possibly even a completely undocumented record type. My current guess is AB4BA572 FPL - the fence post layer, but that's only because of the name.

The reason that this problem hasn't been reported before is that it is intermittent: it depends upon the U11 value and where the lot is being expanded or shrunk, as aelflaed noted from her testing. This implies that the fence posts are just not being moved correctly.

[Update:]

OK everyone. Please start testing again, with 1.2.7.8.
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#510 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 6:53 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 22nd Oct 2007 at 10:19 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by aelflaed
Does all that sound reasonable, or am I being woolly-headed?
I think that your deductions are all very sound. No woolly-headedness here. I think that this also explains why people have not reported this problem before - it's clearly intermittent.
Inge Jones
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#511 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 6:56 PM Last edited by Inge Jones : 22nd Oct 2007 at 7:02 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by Mootilda
At this point, I don't think that there's any use testing any further... what I need to do is to find the record type which controls the fence posts and determine the format.


I am sure I have seen that around somewhere! I will see if I can work it out at all.

Yeah, FencePost Layer 0xAB4BA572

I shall make some plain lots in different U11s and do a simple fence in each and see how the data changes
"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#512 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 6:57 PM
Quote: Originally posted by niol
I just investigated andi 10x20 lot and confirmed that the wall graphs offsets are also made larger than the planned. After all, they're working. And this copy of Andi's lot had one of the 3D offsets remains 30 x30. But, these're no serious matter.
I wonder whether we could remove this excess baggage by expanding and then shrinking these lots back to their original size?
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#513 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 7:04 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 23rd Oct 2007 at 11:48 PM.
Default How Fence Posts are Stored
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
I am sure I have seen that around somewhere! I will see if I can work it out at all.
I think that I have it:

http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=FPL

0xAB4BA572 FPL - Fence Post Layer

Data Section:
DWORD Count N
repeat N times
DWORD FloorLevel (0 = ground, 1 = next floor up, etc)
FLOAT X
FLOAT Y
DWORD FenceType

This is a pretty simple structure, so it should be easy to fix. Most likely, the first float is X, the second is Y, and the two DWORDs are irrelevant to the LE.

[Update:]

Structure definition above was updated based on research.

If you want to remove all fence posts on the lot, just delete the FPL record using SimPE. If you subsequently build new fences, a new FPL record will be generated.
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#514 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 7:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
I am sure I have seen that around somewhere! I will see if I can work it out at all.

Yeah, FencePost Layer 0xAB4BA572

I shall make some plain lots in different U11s and do a simple fence in each and see how the data changes
I don't think that there's any need. Let me add code to handle the record, assuming that the info in the wiki is correct. Then, you can all test it to see whether it fixes all problems.
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#515 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 7:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by aelflaed
And I keep forgetting to mention that the last streetlamp from the rowhouses disappeared today when I entered the lot.
Here's what I would suggest, in order to test whether this is an issue of the lamp's sphere of influence being on deleted terrain, which might be corrupting the lamps:

1) Reinstall the initial rowhouses, with the streetlamps intact.
2) Remove the (corrupted?) streetlamps and buy new ones. Place the new lamps in the same location as the old ones.
3) Play-test the rowhouses and see whether the streetlamps disappear.

If the new lamps work well, then that implies that the old ones were corrupted during the shrinking process (assuming that they were OK before shrinking, of course).
plasticbox
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator
#516 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 8:35 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
I think in real play one would tend to place the lampposts after placing the lots, so that the distances were more realistic. So apart from wanting to solve the mystery of why objects disappear, this particular thing shouldn't be a show stopper. Even with the fences, if the LE is left with some things that can't be solved, people will get to know and share workarounds (eg "row houses need to have their fences made after placement and you can't use half-walls instead of fences")


I totally agree with you in principle -- I still think it's important to figure out what exactly the restrictions are, in order to be able to find workarounds .. is it lights, or just streetlights, or this streetlight in particular, or objects in general, or objects at lot borders, or objects with a "sphere of influence" (however well-defined that term may be?) outside the shrunk lot, etc. This may be an important question for redistributing *furnished* lots (perhaps there's even a connection to my 7pm crash, in case it was not a coincidence, seeing as lights might be (*handwave*) somehow related to light and shadow and dawn and stuff?).
Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
niol
Mad Poster
#517 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 8:37 PM Last edited by niol : 2nd Dec 2007 at 6:50 PM.
Default FencePostLayer
Lol, just used Andi's 20x10 lot to test the FencePost Layer 0xAB4BA572

The attached pix are to show the array values and the attached file is just an original clone of the fence used. for references.

The first two Singles are the Top (T) and Left (L) and followed by the fence Guid ID

The origin of the Top and Left are at the bottom right of the default screen for loading Andi's 20x10 lot.

wiki
http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=AB4BA572

http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...1&postcount=466
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...7&postcount=499
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=513
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=517
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...6&postcount=532
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...5&postcount=534
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost...0&postcount=562
Screenshots
Attached files:
File Type: rar  Cut Stump Flowerbed Fence-cloneori.rar (60.2 KB, 19 downloads) - View custom content
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#518 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 9:30 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 4th Nov 2007 at 12:58 PM.
Default Testers Wanted: Lot Shrinker with Fence Post fix
WARNING to everyone:

This is an UNSUPPORTED TEST version of the LotExpander (1.2.7.8). I am making it available so that people can help me test the new shrinking code. Use at your own risk.

Here is a link to the current supported version of this tool:
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?p=1747180

Testing:

There have been reports of intermittent in-game crashes when playing lots which were reduced in size using this tool. It's possible that all shunken lots are corrupted during the shrinking process. These lots may not be recoverable.

If you are using the LotExpander to shrink a lot which you want to keep, be sure to make a backup of your lot before shrinking it, and to keep that backup until you are absolutely certain that the lot is not corrupt.

If you decide to share a shrunken lot created with this test version, please do not share these lots without warning people about the possible corruption caused by using an unfinished feature in this test version of the LotExpander.

Changes from 1.2.7:

- The LotExpander now has the option of shrinking the size of a lot.
1. Land to be removed must be completely empty of objects and sims. If it is not, shrinking the lot may result in lot corruption and unexpected crashes. If a sim is currently interacting with an object on land which will be deleted, stop your sim and direct them onto the land which will be kept.

2. Shifting a building on a lot has not been implemented. If you shrink in one direction, you cannot grow on the other side of the lot. However, these two operations should be able to be done in two separate runs.
- There is now a Browse button on the Lot Selection screen, to allow you to choose a lot based on lot number or date, rather than name.

- The final screen now has a "Restart" button, which takes you back to the initial screen.

- Resolved an issue where the LotExpander would crash if it couldn't determine the primary neighborhood.

- Temporarily removed the logic which deletes the view of the lot in the neighborhood.

- An intermittent problem with missing fence posts after expanding or shrinking a lot has been fixed.

[Update:]

Test version removed because:

This version may cause the game to CORRUPT your lot and neighborhood!
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#519 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 9:42 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
Here is the results of my test I started last night. Just open Main.htm from the unzipped directory. As long as all the rest of the files are in the same directory, it should find them.
Inge, this is excellent work. From your test results, I think that we can conclude that disappearing lots are not going to be an issue unless the user tries very hard to make them disappear. One less thing to worry about.
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#520 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 10:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by plasticbox
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
So apart from wanting to solve the mystery of why objects disappear, this particular thing shouldn't be a show stopper. Even with the fences, if the LE is left with some things that can't be solved, people will get to know and share workarounds (eg "row houses need to have their fences made after placement and you can't use half-walls instead of fences")
I totally agree with you in principle -- I still think it's important to figure out what exactly the restrictions are, in order to be able to find workarounds
I agree with you both. My goal is to find and fix the simple issues (like the disappearing fence posts) and try to document the more difficult issues, with workarounds if possible.

At the moment, the problem with the streetlights is pretty undefined. I think that a bit more testing on this could be helpful. If we can narrow down the issue a bit, then we might be able to determine how difficult it will be to fix.

I'm most concerned about the intermittent crashing that we are seeing. My professional ethics make it difficult for me to release a version that is so dodgy. If I could be sure that all crashes are related to objects on the deleted terrain, I would feel much better.

I might even be willing to warn people against anything which would normally require "moveobjects on" or other cheats to place within the remaining edge tiles. But, it's not clear that even this restriction will prevent the lot corruption that we are seeing.

This is why I suggested making shrinking an advanced feature - something which has a higher likelihood of producing unacceptable results.

Quote: Originally posted by plasticbox
.. objects with a "sphere of influence" (however well-defined that term may be?) outside the shrunk lot, etc. This may be an important question for redistributing *furnished* lots (perhaps there's even a connection to my 7pm crash, in case it was not a coincidence, seeing as lights might be (*handwave*) somehow related to light and shadow and dawn and stuff?).
I agree that "sphere of influence" is an undefined term; but it may still be a useful concept. I also agree that your 7pm crash seems related to lighting / shadows / etc. The fact that we haven't been able to reproduce this crash only means that it will be harder to find and fix the problem, or to find a workaround.
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#521 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 11:35 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 4th Nov 2007 at 12:28 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by Mutantbunny
Finally got a chance to install net 2 and try running LE 1277. STILL will not run. It gives the continue option and then tries to 'start' (the active mouse icon is activated.)
Mutantbunny,
Please try this debug version. To run, double click on LEDebug.bat. Hopefully, it will generate a log file, LEDebug.txt, which you can then attach here for me to check out. It's just a normal text file, so you can look at it if you like.

I say "hopefully" because I'm still not very familiar with .NET... it works on my machine, but there's some (slim?) possibility that it won't on yours.

By the way, there's no use in anyone else downloading this... it's been crippled and won't do anything except show you what it's trying to do. Of course, if you're interested in seeing the extent of work that the LotExpander does, then I suppose you can try it.

[Update:]

Test version removed. No longer required.
niol
Mad Poster
#522 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 11:38 PM Last edited by niol : 13th Nov 2007 at 6:18 AM.
Default [Lot -shrinking] - precautions
Mootilda,

I guess it's better to tell users to delete the objects before shrinking.
The thing is certain objects can have been running in the background, Or, they're serving for some bhav functions in a given saved game on the family. The sudden trimming off the objects can break or cause data corruptions, this I tend to think.

So, users should be advised to stop their sims to interact with anything that will be trimmed off by commanding their sims to do something else en routine.

Then, delete the objects before lot shrinking.


As for plasticbox's streetlight case, I tend to think the object is stuck on the upper level it's in. A street light will be placed on both levels of partitions it's on. probably, there's a mishap phase definition during trimming?
Mootilda
Site Helper
Original Poster
#523 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 11:52 PM
Quote: Originally posted by niol
So, users should be advised to stop their sims to interact with anything that will be trimmed off by commanding their sims to do something else en routine. Then, delete the objects before lot shrinking.
I changed the description to add this. It may need rewording before release.

Quote: Originally posted by niol
As for plasticbox's streetlight case, I tend to think the object is stuck on the upper level it's in. A street light will be placed on both levels of partitions it's on. probably, there's a mishap phase definition during trimming?
If there's an issue, wouldn't the streetlight look odd?
niol
Mad Poster
#524 Old 22nd Oct 2007 at 11:57 PM Last edited by niol : 13th Nov 2007 at 6:19 AM.
Default [Lot -shrinking] - troubleshooting - streetlight?
Quote: Originally posted by Mootilda
If there's an issue, wouldn't the streetlight look odd?

Ya're right.
Mutantbunny
Forum Resident
#525 Old 23rd Oct 2007 at 12:10 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Mootilda
Mutantbunny,
Please try this debug version.


Got it, thanks. Will let you know....
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