No security updates does not make XP "suck", it possibly creates a security risk for personal information. If tech is your passion, then at least don't sound like a 12 year old.

As for getting credit card information stolen due to a virus, that happens on current OS's too. As well as from just using your credit card in stores.

That debate escalated quickly...
I'm more of a halfway self-learned user with enough knowledge to mange fine with most software, with on-and-off access to at least a couple computer nerds who build computers, and had another computer nerd help build my desktop computer a while back. While I don't have "all the knowledge" about computers like the family nerds like to pretend they have, I like learning something new. Apart from the computer nerds and a couple gamers with a bit more than basic knowledge (me included), there is little interest for computers in the family except for the absolute basics (mom, who is a grandmother, manges fine with her computer system at work, but needs at least ten tries before she learns something new on her home computer, like adding pictures on Facebook - she still asks me for most of it... But she has no interest whatsoever in computers other than the bare neccessities, so that's fine).

I think most of us simmers tend to be on some level from "First ever computer, what do I do?" to "reasonably competent with most software and some knowledge of the internal parts, and able to follow tutorials for things they don't know", while a much smaller number knows how to make programs, build computers, comfortably use an OS other than Win/Mac and set it up for their needs, and do more complicated things.

Wow, came back to ask more about Linux and see this thread has kind of blown up.
@iCad I consider myself a real noob with computers although I have done things by tutorial such as got rid of a browser hijacker and done things in registry with online help at my elbow. Is this something an average person could do, or if I go to a more techy friend and say I want a Linux would they know what that was and be able to set it all up or is this for a professional?

Have fun getting a virus, then.

You're aware, the entire British healthcare system still runs XP, right? Microsoft actually did commission a security update at the bequest of the British government over a virus threat. So while it's true, the peons like you and me get... well, peed on by Microsoft, XP as an operating system does not suck. In fact, it "operated" better than Vista and Windows 8, and whole lot better than Win2K, WinME, etc.

I guess, depending on your parameters to define "suck"... it could be said to "suck" by today's standards. However, a less confrontational way of saying it might be, "WinXP is very outdated and could be unsafe". That's not really arguable. However, suck? It does not. That's my 2¢.


-gE
>=)

So not clicking on a link that says have fun getting a virus lol.

It really was the best version in terms of being able to do what you wanted, etc. 7 was pretty good. It does seem Windows versions are the opposite of Star Trek movies - the odd numbered ones are good and the even numbered ones suck. Who knows why they skipped 9 to go to 10.

ehm, we got derailed seriously again (it's fun, just do not shoot each other, please);

there's still a lot of XP (there're still working stuff in the World under specialised OS 7 versions, it's like time travel to the 1970) machines in the World, the reason usually is very specific hardware which need to be used or software which never was updated for newer systems. You know - academy (or public service or even many companies) won't throw a few millions bucks worth hardware right out the window, or order (for another few millions $$$ ) updated version of software just because MS made more flashy system. In many institutions which have long standing networks and devices you'll find a lot of W10 installations on end devices, where (mostly) it does not matters much, but there will be a lot of old hardware and software in the background. There's a reason for example, why Cisco still teaches old CLI commands - there's a lot of old hardware in the network, which still works and probably they will work for your grandchildren if the humanity survive "making itself great" or whatever. The change for newer something not always is preferable for economic or technical reasons.

If the staff is competent these (e.g. XP) machines are isolated or buffered in network by security devices and staff protocols, and network design, if it's not the case, or we have to deal with typical level of arrogance and incompetence from higher staff - you have another case for the news of Ransomware or such. The desktop end user is a completely different case. Just for the reason that as single user you do not have access to the enterprise level of customer service and deal. Using outdated, not supported system is not secure and very unwise in the open, though you can still happily use it on the isolated machine to the end of the Times if you wish so.

There's a lot to say why the Windows (in general) "sucks" in one way or another, and why it cannot be secure (or really efficient) in any serious way - it's just impossible because of design. These systems never were built to deal with secure, layered environment, network presence, isolated multiusers etc. real processes and memory control - guys, just for example: you deal with the design which mix up programs, users and the system data in one database (the Registry), what could possibly go wrong, right?
And the security never was and still is not a priority for the developer. Now they don't even pretend they care. It's dying platform (as a system), MS attention (and money) is focused on the Cloud (and that's why they pumps a ton of money, like Intel into the Linux). There won't be another Windows, Windows-Service: that you should expect and step by step they reform the "system" into that.

There're legitimate reasons why ppl stays in the Windows world. If you are experienced user of Adobe software or Windows developer (I'm sorry for you in such case), if you use Office suite in professional way (not the case of most users, it's called "Office" with a reason) etc. it would be just plainly stupid to waste a years of skill learning, experience and money put into courses, software etc. and resign. Apple's ecosystem (not mention hostile behaviour for the customers) does not appeal for everyone. But if you're typical human being which just want to get some things done, play sometimes in games and have environment which does not go into your way "because daddy knows better", well - these are legitimate reasons to think about the change. Or at last try something else in the Virtual Machine.

Just don't get me started with privacy (in general) or data protection (or lack of).

Ceterum censeo Karthaginem delendam esse.

//and what was the topic?

XP was/is a great operating system. I would argue that it's the best MS made or, likely, ever will make. Stable. Did what it needed to do without using a lot of system resources. Even has a 64-bit version. It is still widely used by large corporations and organizations -- as grinevilly pointed out (Edit: And ElaineNualla, who basically said the same thing I'm saying here ) -- because such entities tend to use very, very specific -- sometimes proprietary -- software that doesn't get updated/redone for newer operating systems because large corporations/organizations (especially governments) are not prone to forking out for large-scale "upgrades" (in quotes because every MS OS after XP was inferior to XP in some way) every couple of years. Such organizations also tend to have very good network security (although no system is infallible, of course; that widespread ransomware thing that hit a while back is evidence of that), so their security issues are not the same as your average home PC user. I'm not saying everyone should go out and use it as their primary OS for their home computer because that wouldn't be the smartest thing in the world to do -- but perhaps more because of compatibility issues than security, so long as you don't do stupid things online (and I consider using real credit/debit cards on machines that aren't very secure "stupid") -- but the OS certainly doesn't suck. But anyway!

@joandsarah77
I am by NO means an expert about Linux, but I think it's fair to say that YOU could probably install Linux yourself, no techies needed. (The problem with techies when they try to explain things is that they generally can't translate well from their level of Nerd to lower levels of Nerd. They forget what it was like when THEY didn't have the knowledge that they have now. So, mostly they just confuse us lesser mortals. ) I looked at some tutorials when I was considering doing it. They were written for non-techies, and it did not seem excessively hard, and I am not an ubernerd, just a person who, like simmer22, has picked some things up over the years in a self-taught way, helped now by having an ubernerd husband. I wish I could point you at some links, but I was dumb and didn't bookmark.

Anyway, as ElaineNualla said, Linux is actually geared toward familiarity/ease-of-use for migrating Windows users, so while of course there are differences from Windows that you would need to learn (as you once needed to learn how to use Windows), it would not be difficult to do so, especially since you already are familiar with Windows, so you successfully learned once. And switching out OSs is not as much of a pain as it used to be.

What you'll need to consider most, I think, is compatibility with the programs that you use. As I understand it, there's a sort of "plug-in," called Wine, which "translates" such that it allows Linux to run many Windows programs, though there are some that are still incompatible. Sims games work fine, from what I read, but when I considering doing this, the version of Photoshop that I use (CS6) was not compatible (though up to CS2 was) and neither was my CAD program. That was primarily the reason that I decided against going to Linux two years ago, when I got my current Simming machine. Going forward, my CAD program is no longer on my Simming machine, so that's not an issue, but I still do use Photoshop, and while I could probably switch fairly easily to the Linux-compatible GIMP, I'm not sure that I want to, for various reasons. So, we'll see where things stand when this Simming machine breaks in a way that I'm not willing to put in enough money to fix. When I decide to switch, I will probably first experiment on a machine I don't really care about, like maybe that cheap netbook I bought a few years back to play TS2 on when I was on the road. That way, I could learn the process and learn how to use Linux without worrying about screwing up a machine I do care about.

Another thing is a lot of games aren't for Macs and Macs are expensive AF.

I really liked XP because it worked and had few annoyances (granted, I was more of a noob when I started using it on my first laptop, but I liked it a whole lot better than Win95 and Win98, which is what we had on our home computers when I was youner), hated Vista (but got used to it after a while, despite its flaws), loved Win7 because it reminded me of XP and didn't give me any issues I couldn't sort out, didn't even bother with 8, and currently learning how to coax Win10 into at least some form of submission. Not sure which MacOS I tried, but I hated the entire machine, the OS, all the changes to shortcuts, and the near constant freeze-ups (A flaw on several of the school machines I tried) that after half a year of school I was ready to throw the machine out the literal window. My Windows laptop with XP back then worked so much better. To me, Windows and Mac both seem to have various issues, but I'm more comfortable with Windows, so that's what I prefer to use (even though I in a pinch can figure out how to operate the basics of a MacOS without too much trouble). I haven't tried Linux (or any other OS outside of what you find on phones or other gadgets), so I don't have any personal opinions on it.

Most programs are more Windows-friendly than they are Mac- or Linux-friendly, games in particular (yes you can use emulators, but not always), so if most people prefer Windows, then that's quite understandable. Despite its many flaws, it is a bit more user-friendly on the surface, because most people have at some point have had to use a Windows PC. It's when you dig down you really see the flaws, and most people are surface-level users with only basic knowledge of computers, and are only interested in getting their programs to work without too much fuss. Compared to Apple pre-builds, you also have more room for customizing the computer, which you don't really have on a Mac (they tend to come with very limited if any room for upgrades you can do yourself, often because of motherboard limitations in the build and because if you open them up you void any guarantee and risk ruining it because of how it's built). The Mac brand is very hyped, and you often get less than what you pay for because a lot of the price is the brand name. For the same price you can usually get a custom computer or laptop with much better parts, better durability, the possibility of later upgrades, and often you can choose the OS. Linux may be what a person veers toward when they have much more knowledge of computers than the average Windows user, and when they're sick and tired of Windows/MacOS and want to try something else, though I'm pretty sure most basic to average computer users have never tried Linux. I've heard it's not the easiest OS for a beginner, but it's probably a good OS once you get used to it, though.

As for the whole malware situation and security holes (that Mac users love to use as a "why you should get a Mac" reason), if you're connected to the net then you need a good antivirus program, some tinkering in the web browser so it doesn't download anything you didn't tell it to, some common sense, and brains enough to not download or click on anything shady like flashy ads or suspicious links in mails. An adblocker is also a good idea. This, and taking backups regularly (in case the worst happens). In the 20+ years I've used a computer, I've only had a few minor virus scares (that my antivirus program managed to take care of). Mac may be a bit less prone to malware because of a smaller user group, but other than that there's not really a lot else that protects it (not sure about Linux, but the user group is probably even smaller here, and therefore less likely to be targeted by malware).

This whole situation reminds me of an episode of "Little House" I watched last night. A banker had moved to Walnut Grove and after he settled in went out to a pond for some fishing. It just happened to be the same pond Laura liked fishing at so they both ended up fishing at the same time. She chatted with him and caught fish, even offered him some of her bait, while he insisted he had read all the books and knew everything about the fish in that pond and what kind of bait to use. Laura went home with a panful and the banker went home empty-handed. In this case Laura had her experience and what is called "street smarts". The banker had his book learning.

It's the same way with almost everything in life, including computers. There are books, there are experts. And there are end-users who are what we might call street smart--their experience is from what they've done, not what they read in a book. The thing is, we figure out what works best for us, and to say if someone is using Windows XP they are guaranteed to end up with a virus is hyperbole because it absolutely does not guarantee a person is going to end up with something on their computer they shouldn't have. I can't say it would be the smartest thing to do but I know people who just a couple of years ago were still using XP online because they couldn't afford to upgrade their computer and never had a lick of trouble. This wasn't even a friend of a friend--this is a person I know first-hand. I hope by now they've had a chance to upgrade--I forgot to ask them last time we e-mailed.

Over the years my main reluctance to going to Linux (aside from having to install everything which is a process that ends up taking weeks) is whether or not I could run everything I like to use. It's getting easier now, though because of software like LibreOffice, Scribus and the like that run on Linux. I use an old version Paint Shop Pro (I think it's 9), have used PSP for over fifteen years and I love that software and I'm not at all sure I would want to use GIMP. I know a lot of people do but my son doesn't have favorable things to say about it and over the years I've learned to trust his judgment for the most part.

P.S. WinXP not being supported does not mean it "sucks". It was a solid OS. I still even have my OEM disc that I bought when I built my XP computer. WinME sucked. Vista even sucked for a lot of people. XP never has.

^ I've used Gimp on my old laptop (was having some issues with heavier programs like Photoshop and Sims causing graphic issues, which is why I decided to get a new laptop in the first place, but I had to use something a bit less resource-heavy in the meantime), and I don't like the outlay, the useability, saving files, or anything else really. I only bothered to learn some of the basics, so I guess it may be a workable free alternative to more costly programs once you get used to it, but Photoshop is so much better (anything above CS is fine, though CS3 and above has sone nice basic tool upgrades). Haven't tried PSP, though.

I guess it comes down to what you're most comfortable with using, how much work you put into learning the OS or program you use, and what you make of it. Each program and OS have their pros and cons, and there's probably no "perfect" program or OS.

I started using PSP because it was a low-cost alternative to PhotoShop. I mean back then it was either pay $600 for PhotoShop or pirate it and I didn't like the sounds of either of those options.PSP has always been beyond adequate for making CC and doing the photo work I do. I have scans of a bunch of old damaged pictures right now and I've been working on repairing the scans. I'm nowhere near great at it yet but I'm coming along and they don't look half bad. One thing I've found with PSP is there are at least three ways to do most things in it so eventually I'll find the way that suits me best.

PSP is a good program. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that Photoshop has, but that's neither here nor there if those bells and whistles aren't something that you'd use anyway. (And most of them aren't, for the people who just want to edit photos and do relatively simple things like making textures for Sims CC.) It's a lot like Photoshop Elements, which is a less-bell-and-whistle-y version of Photoshop that came (still comes? I dunno?) bundled with many digital cameras and scanners and stuff like that. I've just been using Photoshop for as long as it's existed, ever since I took a class dedicated to it in....1989? 1990? Somewhere around there. It's just something I like to mess around in, and I always wanted to be art-y, but have never been any good with traditional media and thought maybe digital would be easier. It's not, really, but it's a skill set that I took to more easily than traditional art, perhaps because it's a blend of artsy-fartsy and nerdy, which is pretty much what I am, too. So, I like doing digital painting and photo manipulation and text art and stuff like that, and I used to like to build web pages for the hell of it. I won't buy into the newer versions of Photoshop, though, since Adobe went more into the cloud thing and basically renting software from them for a monthly fee. Nope, nope, nope. So, I'll be sticking with CS6. I do have CS2, as well, but I like certain of CS6's features better. So hopefully, by the time I need to switch to Linux, it will be compatible with CS6. Or, I'll have to switch back to CS2. Or use the GIMP. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

The GIMP isn't bad, though. I haven't used it since about...2005?...and then it was a bit clunky and less intuitive than other graphics editors and a little harder to get it to do what you wanted, but once you got the hang of it, it worked well. It might be leagues better nowadays, I don't know. And, being open-source is nice.

Gimp looks kinda like Photoshop on the surface, but when I started trying to figure out the tools, none of them made sense to me. Maybe because Photoshop is so ingrained in my fingers and the fact that the shortcuts I normally use didn't work or did something else, and all the tools in the toolbar seemed completely useless or worked in a different way, barely even matching what the icons look like. It's workable though very finnicky once you get past the initial confusion (which may last for a while), and maybe you can modify it to work better, but (in my personal opinion) completely vanilla it has nothing on Photoshop and a lot of other similar programs.

Some of the Open Source programs seem to have issues where if you're used to the "original" programs, you have to completely twist your brain around to figure out how to use the program. I had such issues with Blender (which has so many weird shortcuts it takes a lot of time just to learn the basics), but now I'm starting to get the hang of the basics. Other open source programs are more intuitive if you're used to the "original", sometimes so close you can hardly notice the diffrence, like Open Office.

I understand why people liked XP (or its modernised Win7 version which I preferred) as an user experience; it was predicable, simple, not overflashy (ugh, maybe just forget that awful cookie-candy design just like Katy Perry expansions, OK, breath.... it never happened, lets continue) and functional. There's a reason why so many DE (Desktop Enviroments) in *ux world have very similar design. It just worked. It was also the system which finally abandoned 16-bit (yeah, who could believe) libraries and drivers and became fully 32-bit.

However on the dev/admin/management side it was just the same nightmare as always, it was under the hood just NT4.x, anyway.

and, guys... honestly - how many times you had to go through typical Windows purgatory ("the computer is slow, time to reinstall")?
Dealing with MS (or Apple) is always kinda like Mama knows best. Just get out of this tower, already!

Windows XP and 7, never. I had to keep the amount of HD space used on my XP machine at less than 40gb otherwise it would slow down. I never formatted and reinstalled. In fact it was the weirdest thing because I had to constantly format and reinstall both '95 and '98SE and it took the longest time for me to get over the urge to wipe the drive and start fresh every couple of months. I've used these machines for years on end without ever doing anything other than maintenance. I'm careful about websites I visit and what I download which from what I've seen techs say is the first thing in keeping a computer working for the long term.

This computer has a SSD so it's really, really fast! :D

I never had to do that with XP or 7. Paint.net is a really good FREE picture editing/making program. I think it's recommended in the modding section here.

the 7 (like hated Vista) introduced an internal ways to deal with orphaned libraries, space gaps, registry inconsistency etc. If you keep the system and selected few programs (without serious major updates messing things up) it degrades much slower than older versions. Still, it degrades, it's just inevitable (though if it is the only or main machine, user can get to use to this). The XP is another story - it degraded quite fast and had not defence mechanisms (which were introduced in Vista). The SSD of course pretty well masks the problem. The problem grows, anyway. In XP there was nothing you could do to prevent for example Registry internal fragmentation and deterioration (there was Mark Russinovich's program to deal with physical Registry fragmentation on the HDD, though). For some extend the Vista and newer versions are able to deal with that.

But, well, it's quite grade for a system dev quality if it's integrity keeping demands 3rd party tools in general like Registry cleaners/defragmenters, etc.

Anyway I'd not discuss with love.

There are things Paint.net is great for like straighten crooked pictures (it's so much easier than PSP) but it really is missing a lot of things I use regularly in PSP. I think a free copy of PSP 9 can be downloaded at oldversion.com

I think GIMP (or any other graphics editor for that matter) might be easier to learn to use if you haven't used any other one before. Because you're right: You get used to the one program, know where everything is in the menus, know the keyboard shortcuts, know how to install plug-ins, might know how to MAKE plug-ins if you're been screwing around in FilterForge, etc., and then when you go into a new program, you reflexively use those tools, even though of course they don't work or they do something completely different than you expect. So, basically, you have to unlearn and then relearn instead of just....learn. So it's almost better to come into a graphics editor -- and probably other sorts of programs, of course -- as a blank slate.

Which is probably why, when I switch to Linux, if CS6 isn't supported, I will probably go back to CS2 rather than use GIMP, to avoid having to unlearn and relearn. CS2 would be a familiar environment where all the stuff I know and that's ingrained into muscle memory will still work. Or, if I just can't leggo of CS6, I'll do my Sims-creating texture work on a different machine. Ours are all networked when we're at home in Colorado (which we aren't now), so it's easy to move files around between them or use one machine to work on files that are stored on another. The main problem is that my Simming machine is physically distant from the others -- on a different floor of the house -- so I'd be physically moving back and forth between them to use Photoshop on one and SimPE or the game on the other, which would be a pain, but it wouldn't be terrible.



I think this is kinda the crux of the issue right here, actually. There are devs/admins/higher-level users in general who understand more about this stuff and who can pick at things and see how things could/should be better and all that. And then there are the average users, who don't understand that stuff or, really, care to understand it at all. They just want something that 1) Works reliably and 2) Runs the programs they use without major issues. That's really all they're interested in. For 95% of those people, Windows or Mac is going to fill the bill for them. Look at the people on this thread who've said "I can run TS2 under Win10 fine." That, really, is the beginning and the end for them. They don't care about its security holes or MS's lackadaisical approach to fixing them or even that in some senses it's just a big piece of spyware. They just want something that works for the things that they do on their computer, and if their stuff works, they're happy. And, often, they aren't confident enough in their abilities to even think about doing something scary like changing a computer's operating system. Like I said, techies tend to forget how they were when they didn't know any of this stuff, so they don't get why this stuff seems super-scary to other people.

So, we can chat about techie stuff all day -- It's interesting to me, personally, though I am not really at a level where I understand a lot of this stuff -- but this is generally what it's going to come down to. Me, I'm just done with Windows's resource-hogginess. That's my main complaint. It's been my complaint since the (mostly) death of XP, and it's only getting worse. So, I'm uninterested in continuing with it and, as I said, I disagree with Apple's business practices as well, so I will not give them my money. That leaves....alternatives, so I will do what I have to do.



I'm joining the chorus of "never" here. I have never noticed any significant slow-down in any of my computers over time unless I was running out of storage space (which is understandable), or I was using a program that was straining its resources, like when I was doing CAD renders on this machine that only has 8GB of RAM when I know damn well the program really wants more like 16 when it's doing that. I've never had to reinstall the OS to address system slowdowns. I think this maybe a difference in usage or perhaps just sensitivity to the issue. As in, a more knowledgeable user might be more hyperaware of slowness whereas a typical user would probably just see it as normal variation and think no more of it.

I upgraded because my graphic's card died, not because of Windows.

Does Linux accept Corel Photoshop 6? That's what I use. Seems like not many people use Corel. That and simPE, FastStone and Fraps are all the programs that I use with Sims. Anything online I plan to have a small netbook or something portable for. It would need to be able to take a stick or portable hard drive so I could transfer stuff between them.

I know to load Sims 2 mine bought about a month ago with Win 10 is slower than the one I had with Win 7 since 2011. I also had problems with the computer freezing up period sometimes until I googled and found out about deleting temp files.

You mean Corel Paint Shop, Jo? Or Paint Shop Pro or PSP? Many people use that. Unfortunately, I don't know if it'll run under Linux. I don't know if SimPE will run, either, though I suspect it will. It seems like open-source software ought to run on an open-source OS. But if you're running Linux, there'd be no need to have a separate computer for online stuff. Linux is fine with internet browsers and, as I understand it, Linux is also always "supported" since it's open-source. No need to put up with Microsoft's forced-"upgrade" idiocy. Linux isn't usually a target for people who make malware, either, since it has a much smaller market share and is generally used by people who are a little more computer-savvy and are therefore less likely to have security holes to take advantage of.