Replies: 23 (Who?), Viewed: 667 times.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#1 Old 16th Feb 2021 at 11:31 AM
Default Dresser Drawer Problem
I have recently learned how to create more groups to an item; however I am having a problem separating the drawer from the frame of the dresser. Despite my best efforts when I do the outline, it seems to also pick up 'shards' of the frame.
Perhaps these pics will show what I mean:-




I have searched for tutorials but I have been unable to find any similar issues with a dresser.
I should advise I am using a Sims3 dresser mesh, if that should make any difference.
Any advice would be most welcome.
Thank you in advance!
Screenshots
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Mad Poster
#2 Old 16th Feb 2021 at 3:08 PM
I'm guessing this is a problem with which pieces are included in the drawer animation. Probably just some stray faces. They can be a bit difficult to grab if you're using Milkshape.

Can you upload the files?
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#3 Old 16th Feb 2021 at 9:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
I'm guessing this is a problem with which pieces are included in the drawer animation. Probably just some stray faces. They can be a bit difficult to grab if you're using Milkshape.

Can you upload the files?

Hello @simmer22
Thank you for your reply.
I am using Milkshape - would you recommend another program?
I wondered if there was some way to remove the extra bits that are not part of the drawer when I am separating them into groups?
Or do I just need to practice more?
Mad Poster
#4 Old 16th Feb 2021 at 10:13 PM
Usually it's just a matter of selecting the right bits and pieces of the mesh. Milkshape isn't the easiest tool for meshing, but it's okay for simple edits.

For selecting there's "Vertex" and "Face". There's also the tickbox "By Vertex". If something is difficult to grab, you can use "Hide selection" (Ctrl+H) in the Edit menu, along with hiding groups, to hide parts in the background. I do that a lot if there's difficult areas. If you have vertices selected, "hide selection" makes the vertices unselectable but still shows the mesh - useful if you want to model something over the top of something else.

There's also the "Ignore backfaces" button - can be useful, but make sure you keep track of when you've left it on and off, because if it's on you don't see the backside of the model, and if it's off you may select more than you want.

The stray face is most likely easily fixed by finding it (does look like there could be four, one on each side around the drawer), detaching them from the animated group, attaching them to the non-animated group (making sure the bone assignments are proper), and exporting the file again.
Field Researcher
#5 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 6:25 AM
I really don't know how to use MilkShape, but if you were willing to learn Blender, you can switch between 'choose by vertex, edge, or face' until you can isolate those errant parts that are trying to cling to the drawer and reassign them back to the main mesh for dresser.

edit: I had a long explanation here, and after re-reading it, it made absolutely no sense. I agree with simmer22 - if you upload just your mesh file (the .obj or extracted gmdc, we might be able to run it through blender or milkshape to see where the weird part can be added back to the main mesh. I have a suspicion that the vertex on that top left corner of the drawer is shared with the main drawer mesh. It probably was once upon a time two separate vertices in the same spot that somehow melded into a single vertex.

___________________________

We have been stuck too long with "New Mesh" as the apex of creation.
_ WesHowe
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#6 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 8:55 AM Last edited by Ladysimplayer8 : 17th Feb 2021 at 9:48 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4RE
I really don't know how to use MilkShape, but if you were willing to learn Blender, you can switch between 'choose by vertex, edge, or face' until you can isolate those errant parts that are trying to cling to the drawer and reassign them back to the main mesh for dresser.

edit: I had a long explanation here, and after re-reading it, it made absolutely no sense. I agree with simmer22 - if you upload just your mesh file (the .obj or extracted gmdc, we might be able to run it through blender or milkshape to see where the weird part can be added back to the main mesh. I have a suspicion that the vertex on that top left corner of the drawer is shared with the main drawer mesh. It probably was once upon a time two separate vertices in the same spot that somehow melded into a single vertex.

Thank you @simmer22 and @d4RE
I have tried to make the drawer a few more times and I did manage to outline the drawer shape without some of the faces around it - so I think the answer is practice!
Of my best effort so far, I have now encountered another problem with the sides panels of the drawer not displaying depending on whether I chose a left or a right camera view: -



Is the drawer location slightly out?
Edit: Just noticed that the camera top view is okay?


Thank you in advance for any further help.
Screenshots
Mad Poster
#7 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 2:16 PM
Can you upload your Milkshape file? Maybe I can help show you a few tricks for how to select the difficult areas. It's just easier to show on the actual mesh you're having problems with.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#8 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 3:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
Can you upload your Milkshape file? Maybe I can help show you a few tricks for how to select the difficult areas. It's just easier to show on the actual mesh you're having problems with.

I did try to attach the GMD and also .ms3d files for this dresser but the file type is not accepted.
I am very receptive to any tricks to make it easier!
Mad Poster
#9 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 3:38 PM
Try packing them as a zip file.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#10 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 5:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
Try packing them as a zip file.

I packaged them as zip files but it does not recognize the package, so doesn't let you upload them.
I think it only permits specific packages like DBPF or Sims2 packs for lots?
Me? Sarcastic? Never.
staff: administrator
#11 Old 17th Feb 2021 at 8:33 PM
I find the easiest way to separate meshes in Milkshape, is to select using Face with the box for By Vertex selected, then hide the selected mesh parts (ctrl+h).  I continue to to do this until left with the pieces of the mesh I was, then regroup.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#12 Old 18th Feb 2021 at 7:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugeLunatic
I find the easiest way to separate meshes in Milkshape, is to select using Face with the box for By Vertex selected, then hide the selected mesh parts (ctrl+h).  I continue to to do this until left with the pieces of the mesh I was, then regroup.

@HugeLunatic
Thank you for this tip - I was selecting Face to outline, then regrouping. I will try this method.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#13 Old 2nd Mar 2021 at 9:01 AM
I think the issue of picking up 'shards' when outlining the drawer has been solved; but despite lots of tries at separating the drawer from the frame of the dresser, I still seem to end up with one side not displaying (left or right) depending on which camera view. The top camera view is fine.
In Milkshape and in SimPE (GMDC), the drawer has the five faces and looks like a drawer with the clothes inside.

The only time I have been successful was creating a drawer that was the full width of the dresser - is this the issue?
Could it be I am not using the 'best fit' when cloning a dresser?

Am I right in thinking that this would not be approved by a Moderator if I was to upload it?

Thank you in advance for any help.
Field Researcher
#14 Old 2nd Mar 2021 at 2:08 PM
The sides not showing is most likely a normals problem. Make sure you have two planes for each side - one facing right and one facing left. Having just one plane will not show in both directions.

___________________________

We have been stuck too long with "New Mesh" as the apex of creation.
_ WesHowe
Mad Poster
#15 Old 2nd Mar 2021 at 11:08 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 2nd Mar 2021 at 11:20 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladysimplayer8
Am I right in thinking that this would not be approved by a Moderator if I was to upload it?


You can upload the files as a zip archive and add them to a post here, with the "attachments" tab - it's fine for the creating/help section when you're still needing help with a creation (but you're not supposed to upload finished projects like those in the Download section without moderator approval). You can also use Simfileshare or something like it.

When you've finished the project and want to upload it properly for everyone to download (on MTS) with proper pictures and all, then you have to go through the process of uploading and waiting for moderator approval.

---

The sides is probably a problem with not having properly selected all the faces you need. You have to make sure everything you want in a particular group is visible when only that group is selected. When you turn on the "Draw verties with bone colors", that part of the mesh should be one single color (and if it isn't, make sure the joint/bone assignments are correctly done, or those parts of the mesh will either not move or move with other parts).

Do so for all the groups. Hide everything but the group you're working on, and make sure the group you are working on have every single piece it needs and is assigned properly.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#16 Old 3rd Mar 2021 at 7:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4RE
The sides not showing is most likely a normals problem. Make sure you have two planes for each side - one facing right and one facing left. Having just one plane will not show in both directions.

Hello d4RE,
Thank you for your reply.
What is a normals problem?
For me, it would be easier if I had missed some part of the drawer; then it could be added.
I think because the side panel can shift between either being the left or right side of the drawer depending on the camera view, is why I am finding it more difficult.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#17 Old 3rd Mar 2021 at 7:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
You can upload the files as a zip archive and add them to a post here, with the "attachments" tab - it's fine for the creating/help section when you're still needing help with a creation (but you're not supposed to upload finished projects like those in the Download section without moderator approval). You can also use Simfileshare or something like it.

When you've finished the project and want to upload it properly for everyone to download (on MTS) with proper pictures and all, then you have to go through the process of uploading and waiting for moderator approval.

---

The sides is probably a problem with not having properly selected all the faces you need. You have to make sure everything you want in a particular group is visible when only that group is selected. When you turn on the "Draw verties with bone colors", that part of the mesh should be one single color (and if it isn't, make sure the joint/bone assignments are correctly done, or those parts of the mesh will either not move or move with other parts).

Do so for all the groups. Hide everything but the group you're working on, and make sure the group you are working on have every single piece it needs and is assigned properly.

Hello @Simmer22,
Thank you for your reply.
I have never tried 'draw vertices with bone colors', so I will try to do that and let you know how I get on.
Fingers crossed this reveals what my error is.
Mad Poster
#18 Old 3rd Mar 2021 at 3:15 PM
^ It just shows you in colors which vertices are linked to which joints in the mesh (or rather which parts of the mesh, because if vertices are assigned to more than one joint, there will be a color gradient, like with body meshes). It can be very handy for diagnosing issues in animated meshes.

It's found in the Joint tab.
Field Researcher
#19 Old 3rd Mar 2021 at 3:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladysimplayer8
What is a normals problem?
For me, it would be easier if I had missed some part of the drawer; then it could be added.
I think because the side panel can shift between either being the left or right side of the drawer depending on the camera view, is why I am finding it more difficult.


A normal tells which direction a face is facing. The side of the face aligned with the normal will take on materials & textures, and be visible when rendered in a program like Sims 2. The "back side" doesn't take materials & textures, and is invisible when rendered.

The 3D pic below shows how the faces of a drawer side face out to be visible as a 3 dimensional object.

In the single face pic, the inside of the drawer side panel is visible, but the outside is invisible. That's what I think is going on with your drawer. The top and outside faces of your side panels are probably still stuck to the main dresser mesh.
Screenshots

___________________________

We have been stuck too long with "New Mesh" as the apex of creation.
_ WesHowe
Mad Poster
#20 Old 3rd Mar 2021 at 3:22 PM
^ That's what I think, too.

But if you are sure you've selected all parts of the drawer mesh, and everything is showing in Milkshape when you hide the other parts, some parts of the drawer could stillbe hiding with the main mesh if they haven't been assigned properly.

So you'll want to check that you've isolated all the faces you need for the drawer, that everything is showing on the drawer when the non-animated part is hidden, and that everything is assigned properly to the correct joints.

- Make sure the setting "Draw backfaces" in the 3D window is NOT ticked. To check this, right-click in the window, it's one of the options somewhere in the middle. It's possible that this setting could be causing you to see backfaces and thinking you've got everything selected properly. The option should be selected for the other windows (otherwise selecting things gets difficult).
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#21 Old Yesterday at 9:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
^ That's what I think, too.

But if you are sure you've selected all parts of the drawer mesh, and everything is showing in Milkshape when you hide the other parts, some parts of the drawer could stillbe hiding with the main mesh if they haven't been assigned properly.

So you'll want to check that you've isolated all the faces you need for the drawer, that everything is showing on the drawer when the non-animated part is hidden, and that everything is assigned properly to the correct joints.

- Make sure the setting "Draw backfaces" in the 3D window is NOT ticked. To check this, right-click in the window, it's one of the options somewhere in the middle. It's possible that this setting could be causing you to see backfaces and thinking you've got everything selected properly. The option should be selected for the other windows (otherwise selecting things gets difficult).

Hello @d4RE and @simmer22
Thank you both for your help.
I have tried and tried and am currently feeling demented - perhaps if you saw what I am doing in Milkshape you might be able to spot where I am going wrong?



I now seem to have a little piece of wood at the top of the drawer that is not displaying correctly.


Thank you for any other assistance you can offer.
Screenshots
Field Researcher
#22 Old Yesterday at 10:30 AM Last edited by d4RE : Yesterday at 10:51 AM. Reason: looked at the pics more closely
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladysimplayer8
I now seem to have a little piece of wood at the top of the drawer that is not displaying correctly.


Actually, it looks like it is back where it belongs and displaying quite nicely. All you're missing now is the outside of the side panels.

If you still can't find the outside faces to add back to the drawer, you can always highlight the four vertices and create a new face for each side. Just make sure it's facing the right direction and triangulate (make it into two triangles) before putting into your package.

EDIT:
Looks like you've grabbed all there is to grab, judging from the pictures. Those outside faces are either facing inward instead of outward, or have somehow gotten deleted throughout the process. I would hide everything but the drawer faces, then check to see if the outside faces to the side panels even exist and, if they do, flip the normals so they show. If they don't exist, then just make new faces, and move on to the next phase.

___________________________

We have been stuck too long with "New Mesh" as the apex of creation.
_ WesHowe
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#23 Old Yesterday at 2:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4RE
Actually, it looks like it is back where it belongs and displaying quite nicely. All you're missing now is the outside of the side panels.

If you still can't find the outside faces to add back to the drawer, you can always highlight the four vertices and create a new face for each side. Just make sure it's facing the right direction and triangulate (make it into two triangles) before putting into your package.

EDIT:
Looks like you've grabbed all there is to grab, judging from the pictures. Those outside faces are either facing inward instead of outward, or have somehow gotten deleted throughout the process. I would hide everything but the drawer faces, then check to see if the outside faces to the side panels even exist and, if they do, flip the normals so they show. If they don't exist, then just make new faces, and move on to the next phase.

Hello @d4RE
Thank you again for this reply.
I have been taking a really close look at the drawer and I am not positive but I think I am outlining a 'slither' smaller than the drawer should be and that is why I am seeing a little bit of the brown trim from the drawer on the left hand side of the dresser and possibly the rear face of the drawer? I will keep working on the outline...

I don't think the outside faces of the side panels exist - how to you make new faces?
Mad Poster
#24 Old Yesterday at 6:48 PM Last edited by simmer22 : Yesterday at 9:10 PM.
Can you upload the mesh as a zip file, so we can take a look at it? Could be you're overlooking something. I can see some potential missing sides on the drawer, but it could be they're hidden very well inside the rest of the mesh. Overlapping faces can be difficult to select in Milkshape.

Since there are clothes in the drawer, and it's clearly modeled to be drawn back, so it looks like the original mesh was animated. It means the drawer should have the necessary geometry.

EDIT:

So I found the original mesh (had it from earlier...) and it wasn't particularly difficult to separate the drawer. It's supposed to be in one piece, and the drawer doesn't have a backside (which isn't visible anyway). When the drawer is hidden, there's supposed to be a gaping hole (as shown). I took a few pictures so you can see. The red parts are the selected drawer.

(If you didn't already know, you can deselect areas with right-click + shift. All I really did was to select the area marked in red from the right top view, then deselect all the areas I didn't want from the same view, making sure "Face" and "By Vertex" were active. This got me the right selection in about a minute)

Another trick I use a lot is when I think I have everything I want, I move the selection far enough away to see if anything I don't want in the selection is moving with it. If it does, I Ctrl+Z and fix the selection, and then move it away again, and continue doing this until everything is fine. If everything is fine, I Ctrl+Z and regroup the selection. Just a tip, but it has helped me quite a bit in Milkshape. (see pic #325 for example of how it's not supposed to be - you want the item to be fully free of the other group before regrouping)
Screenshots
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