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#801 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
[...] but that would be a code error not a CTD.
What is a CTD?
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One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#802 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 10:35 PM
CTD=Crash to desktop. The result of a failure to place an object in world eg because a portal was incorrect would be a script execution error and result in an error message if you have testingcheatsenabled or a jump effect or nothing at all - the thing just doesn't show up.

But if you like I can test a lot without portals where there is a family who need to go to school and work, just to be sure?

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#803 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
Actually there is sound in buildmode - most of the tools come with sound effects.


What I meant was: according to simsample (I don't have sound in my game, myself), in Build mode the ambient sound -- crickets etc -- does not change when toggling Night. People are crashing in Build mode when toggling Night. How can sound play a role in that?

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#804 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
But if you like I can test a lot without portals where there is a family who need to go to school and work, just to be sure?
A more reasonable test would be to move all portals off of the lot in both dimensions (say -10, -10) and pointing away from the lot. If this works in all cases, then I'd say that I could rule out the portals.

However, it would make sense to test this with something other than Bon Voyage, since we've seen less crashes in BV.

On a separate topic, would anyone be interested in seeing my new ideas for the UI? Would anyone be interested in some initial testing, to ensure that I haven't broken anything?
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#805 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootilda
On a separate topic, would anyone be interested in seeing my new ideas for the UI? Would anyone be interested in some initial testing, to ensure that I haven't broken anything?


I'm interested in the UI, yes.

One thing I've stumbled upon during testing some shrunk lots/build stuff, but perhaps that's already changed in the release version: when pressing "Restart" at the end, it goes back to the *first* screen, which in my eyes is unnecessary (all you do is press Start *again* there -- someone who restarts will already have seen the intro blurb). It would save an extra click if "Restart" went to Screen 2 directly.

Also, do you think the LE should assume that people will want to do all their shrinking in the same hood if they restart? If so, it would make sense to let the neighbourhood selection screen default to the hood that's already in use (which the browser screen does anyway -- it would save a click if the user wouldn't have to press "Browse" and then OK and then select the lot).

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#806 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 11:42 PM Last edited by plasticbox : 3rd Nov 2007 at 3:33 AM.
OK; I'm done with a bit of testing. One significant result I think I've found:

Mootilda, I think the shrinking is messing with the roofs in the Base Game (or the roofs are messing with the shrinking or whatever) -- see below, phase 1 through 4: I had a *lot* of crashes before any sims even came near the lots, and without toggling the Night switch. So this is not the "7PM crash", it's a whole other kind of crash I would say?

I've attached my backups of the affected lots (01 and 02) pre-and post-shrinking, if you want to investigate. I'm also attaching *all* crash logs (some are from later gameplay testing) -- I can't tell which of them may be useful and which not. Also, screenshots of lot 01 pre- and post-shrinking below.



Test run 2007-11-02

Tested in the BGS Base Game, with no custom content and no hacks. I'll recount the whole story here, because most of it isn't about the "7PM" crash from what I can tell .. it might be a completely different issue. Not sure.


Phase 1:

- Made a new, uninhabited neighbourhood (Template: Viper Canyon -- 100% flat)
- Made 6 new lots (all of them 3x2), none of them touching each other
- Built the following:

Lot 1: Floor tiles and roof in the middle 10 tiles, rest untouched
Lot 2: Floor tiles and roof in the middle 10 tiles, removed all other floor tiles (road/sidewalk)
Lot 3: Floor tiles and foundation in the middle 10 tiles, rest untouched
Lot 4: Floor tiles and foundation in the middle 10 tiles, removed all other floor tiles
Lot 5: Floor tiles and wall in the middle 10 tiles, rest untouched
Lot 6: Floor tiles and wall in the middle 10 tiles, removed all other floor tiles

- Packaged all lots ("pre-shrink" version)
- Quit game, shrunk all lots on the left and right with LE 1.2.7.8

The roof I used is a gable roof with its walls at the lot edge -- the same type of roof (but not the same game configuration) as on the Backdoor Lane lot. My other two lot uploads have different roofing: gable roofs with the walls *perpendicular* to the lot edge. They have also been crashing.


Phase 2:

- Went back into the game
- Tried to enter all lots in order to get the game to register the new size:

Lot 1: crash to desktop during load screen. Second try, loads fine, I add one floor tile, crash to desktop during save/exit (i.e. during neighbourhood load screen). Third try, no crashes at all.
Lot 2: entered, placed floortile, exited - no crash
Lot 3: ditto
Lot 4: ditto
Lot 5: ditto
Lot 6: ditto

- Packaged all lots ("post-shrink" version)


Phase 3:

- Made 6 new CAS sims (that I didn't need later on) <-- Edited!
- Tried to enter the empty lots while still uninhabited and toggle Night in Build mode:

Lot 1: first try: loads fine, upon toggle: crash to desktop; 2nd and 3rd try: crash during load screen
Lot 2: 2x crash to desktop during load screen, third try: no crash, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash
Lot 3: first try: crash during load screen; 2nd try: no crash, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash; third try: crash during load screen
Lot 4: 3x crash during load screen
Lot 5: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 6: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)

I had not moved any of the lots up to that point, nor put them in the bin+back


Phase 4:

- Made another new, uninhabited neighbourhood (Template: Viper Canyon -- 100% flat)
- Installed and placed the previously packaged shrunk lots (not adjacent to each other) -- to sort of simulate what happens when people doanload and install
- Made 6 new CAS sims
- Tried to enter the empty lots while still uninhabited and toggle Night in Build mode:

Lot 1: 3 x crash to desktop during load screen
Lot 2: 3 x crash to desktop during load screen
Lot 3: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 4: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 5: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 6: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)

I doublechecked with all of the back-ups of the *un*shrunk lots: no crashes at all when loading, night toggling, save/exiting.


Phase 5:

- Moved one CAS sim each (sim A, B, C, F) in the lots 3, 4, 5, and 6 (don't think there's a point in testing obviously broken lots)
- Tried to enter each of those lots and toggle Night in Build mode:

Lot 3: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 4: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 5: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 6: 1st try: loads fine, upon toggle: crash to desktop; 2nd try: no crashes, 3rd try: no crashes

Quit and restarted the game in order to install one more copy of the shrunk lots (this is the Base Game -- you can't pull duplicates from the lot bin). I did not place any objects on the lots up to this point; it was about 08:30 (AM) when I last exited, so no visitors either.


Phase 6:

- Reentered the inhabited neighbourhood
- Tried to play each of the inhabited lots until 8PM (toggling build mode day/night a few times during the day):

Lot 3: 1st try: crash to desktop during load screen; 2nd try: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, 7PM: no crash, save/exit: no crash
Lot 4: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, 7PM: no crash, save/exit: no crash
Lot 5: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, 7PM: no crash, save/exit: no crash
Lot 6: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, 7PM: no crash, save/exit: no crash

I added a standard minimal "survival package" of objects to all of the lots during gameplay (see screenshot): toilet, shower, fridge, bookcase, 2 x counter, phone.

- Went back into lots 3-6 to add one more floortile (so that now it's visible from inside the lot whether it has been played before: one extra tile = unplayed; two extra tiles = played before. Personally I don't think that this makes a difference though -- my idea is that the sims crash, not the lots).
- Moved all sims out
- Packaged the previously inhabited lots ("post-play" version)


Phase 7:

- Moved the leftover CAS sims (D and E) into the abandoned lots 3 and 6 (which had been crashing before):

Lot 3: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)
Lot 6: loads fine, upon toggle: no crash, save/exit: no crash (all 3 times)

Played both until 8PM: no crashes.


Conclusions:

* I see no significant difference whether or not I removed the excess floortiles (road/sidewalk on the shrunk-to-be area) from the lots before shrinking.

* I see no significant correlation between crashes during building and crashes during gameplay in lots 3-6 (walls/foundations). Lots 1 and 2 appeared to be so broken I didn't bother to playtest.

* I think Lot 1 and 2 must have gotten seriously messed up during the shrinking. I have never seen such crashing before -- I've previously only had crashes during gameplay, not in build mode (apart from the quick lot testing round earlier this week). With none of the lots I have uploaded have I seen any crashes while building them -- the one Base Game lot I made has a different roof though; there are no roof walls at the lot border on that one.


One more test I can think of that might be somewhat useful:

In order to disprove the theory that previously played, "pre-crashed" lots are safe, someone could play those and see if they can get them to crash. I'll post a note on the 7PM thread to that effect.


Note re. the screenshots: I've upped the contrasts in the "pre-shrink" picture a bit, so that the lines on the ground are better visible. That's why it looks a bit different.

ETA, another screenshot attached: these are the timestamps of the lots and characters in the *first* hood (where I did the shrinking, but no playtesting). In case it provides a clue in what order the files were saved. (Sceenshot taken over the network, that's why it looks so OSXy .. I play on windows)
Screenshots
Download - please read all instructions before downloading any files!
File Type: zip crashlogs_20071102.zip (290.0 KB, 18 downloads) - View custom content
File Type: zip lot01+02_pre-and-post-shrink.zip (946.8 KB, 4 downloads) - View custom content
File Type: zip lot03+04+05+05_pre-shrink.zip (1.49 MB, 3 downloads) - View custom content
File Type: zip lot03+04+05+05_post-shrink.zip (1.45 MB, 6 downloads) - View custom content
File Type: zip lot03+04+05+05_post-play.zip (1.54 MB, 8 downloads) - View custom content

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One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#807 Old 2nd Nov 2007 at 11:58 PM
Tested normal lot with Ottomas family all portals jumbled up and placed in loft space. Result = cars & pedestrians came and left from loft.

Took out Stop portal in each pair. Result = cars still arrived in loft, gave pop-up error message, and had to vaporise when the hour was up.

Took out remaining portals. Result = cars started coming to road again, but in a bit of a funny place. Family were able to go to school and work. I already knew from following the code that vehicles only use the portals as a suggestion for where to appear and are not reliant on the portals.

Now you might think this means that BV is just more robust than past versions in dealing with misplaced portals, so plasticbox's crashing lot could still be caused by portals. Then those lots should be ok in my game, but they're not.

Someone please give me a lot with the portals at -10 like Mootilda suggested for me to test, cos I have no idea how to edit the lot file to place them there.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#808 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 12:35 AM
Have the lighting changes with Gunmod's Radiance lighting mod been considered? Haven't seen it mentioned... just a thought. Could explain why some suffer crashing (pbox) and some don't (Inge.)
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#809 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 12:38 AM
I have tweaked camera settings in my base game (don't recall what exactly), but no lighting mods in any game. Also, Inge does crash -- she posted before that she tested my Backdoor Lane lot, and it crashed.

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#810 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 1:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
Someone please give me a lot with the portals at -10 like Mootilda suggested for me to test, cos I have no idea how to edit the lot file to place them there.
Here's what I'd try, in order to create a lot with portals off the lot in both directions:

I would create a larger lot with U11=3, make sure that the portals are in the front left corner (0,0) and facing away from the middle of the lot, then shrink the lot at the front and left with "move portals" turned off (I think that you'll have to use 1.2.7.11 to get this option). This should move the portals like they are regular objects (ie, keep them in the same relative location on the lot). Since you're cutting off the front and left and all of the portals are at the front and left, this should move the portals to -10, -10.

Note that this should produce the same result (portals off the lot) no matter what U11 lot rotation you use, but U11=3 should give you -10, -10 coordinates - the other U11 values will give you other off-the-lot coordinates.
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#811 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 1:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
OK; I'm done with a bit of testing. One significant result I think I've found: I think the shrinking is messing with the roofs in the Base Game (or the roofs are messing with the shrinking or whatever)
This looks like great testing. I'll take a look at the roof logic and see whether there's anything obviously wrong. If not, I'll see whether I can change the roof logic so that the roof never goes off of the lot (possibly just delete the overhang). Luckily, the roof record is a pretty simple one.

Thanks for including the unshrunk lots. This will allow me to test various modifications to the shrinking code on the same (hopefully) crashing lot.
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#812 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 1:36 AM
Mootilda, let me know if you think it makes sense to re-test all of this in Base+NL, Base+OfB, etc .. I have time on my hands tomorrow. (Or rather, a pile of things I wouldn't mind putting off given a good excuse =P)

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#813 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 1:43 AM Last edited by Mootilda : 3rd Nov 2007 at 2:58 AM.
You can see that in standard mode, the LotAdjuster looks pretty much the same as we discussed, except that I swapped the Front/Back and Left/Right to more closely match the Width x Depth philosophy. Easy to change back if this seems wrong.

If you click on Advanced, you get an expanded screen. Each advanced option has some explanation at the bottom, to say what the concerns are, if any. Moving Right / Left and Front / Back should now be more obvious (I hope). Selecting some options disables others.

I also added mnemonics and other keyboard shortcuts.

Feedback greatly appreciated.
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#814 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 1:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
Mootilda, let me know if you think it makes sense to re-test all of this in Base+NL, Base+OfB, etc .. I have time on my hands tomorrow. (Or rather, a pile of things I wouldn't mind putting off given a good excuse =P)
Intially, I don't think so. Dinner time, so I'll post later.
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#815 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 2:24 AM
I'll look at the UI stuff tomorrow! Off now. Hopefully you can work out something from the lots/logs .. dizzy (competent person at MATY) might be looking at the crash logs as well.

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#816 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 2:26 AM
Oh, *idea* from what you said before about memory being corrupted etc: maybe it isn't so much the fact that they're CAS sims, but the fact that they're NEW (= made in the same gameplay session) that makes them crash? Would that make sense?

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#817 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 2:46 AM
To see how the UI works, yes, that would make sense. I can't promise any other testing though (all that portal moving and stuff).

One thing I can already say is, in the advanced options part, I think "dangerous" options should be UNticked by default. People think, in general, unticking is the safe thing to do. I'd reword "move portals" to "leave portals fixed" (will try to come up with a better wording tomorrow), and untick it (so that in order to do the "dangerous thing" you have to "activate" it, not "deactivate").

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#818 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 2:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
Oh, *idea* from what you said before about memory being corrupted etc: maybe it isn't so much the fact that they're CAS sims, but the fact that they're NEW (= made in the same gameplay session) that makes them crash? Would that make sense?
Hmmm... never thought about that. I suppose that there's a possiblity... Is there any indication that CAS sims created after installing a "corrupted" lot will crash when placed on a non-shrunken lot? Is there any indication that CAS sims created before installing a "corrupted" lot will not crash when placed on the normally crashing lot? Do you have any evidence to support or disprove this theory?

As far as I know, the LotExpander doesn't do anything with sims at all during the shrinking process... however, the lot package definitely contains stuff about sims, even if the lot is not occupied. So, if the game is unable to parse the lot file correctly, it could be corrupting nearby records - again, nearby is just a question of what happens to be placed together in a particular save, it has nothing to do with physical proximity on the lot.

Since the LotExpander doesn't actually touch those records, there are no tests inside the LE for corruption of the sims information.
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#819 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 3:05 AM Last edited by plasticbox : 3rd Nov 2007 at 3:16 AM.
Not evidence really, no -- I'm just still puzzled by the fact that all crashes reported so far have been with CAS sims (plus one with an odd type of NPC I don't know very much about).

A few posts up, #800 I think, you said that -- well I don't need to look it up, you just said it again: "nearby is just a question of what happens to be placed together in a particular save" -- what if you save a brand new sim, then shrink a brand new lot, and something goes wrong with that: wouldn't it be quite likely that those two records are located nearby in memory? More likely than, say, the brand new lot and a sim I made last week, or one that has been born one in-game generation ago?

I don't mean to say the LE does something with the sim records directly, only that if something is wrong and it reads/writes the wrong memory address, that could be interfering with a new sim record *more likely* than with an age old one.

Would be interesting to know if anyone's had a crash with a CAS sim they made two weeks ago. I imagine most people make the sims, then the lots, or the other way around, in the same game session. Just like i did earlier today.


(Note that my mental model of how computers work is almost 100% classic MacOS, with a little OSX on top .. no idea on memory management under windows.)


ETA: I just added one line back into my protocol above: I *had* made a set of new CAS sims in the first hood as well -- that I didn't need later, because I decided to test gameplay in a new hood, so I removed the mention of it (thinking it might be confusing). However, I *made* the sims, and if there's this kind of corruption going on, this might play a role.

I just checked the timestamps on the files -- packaged "post shrink" lots are saved at 20:59 and 21:00, character files are 21:01-21:04, so I'm sure that this was the point I added the sims to the hood.

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#820 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 3:28 AM Last edited by Mootilda : 6th Nov 2007 at 4:12 PM.
Default TEST Version of the new LotAdjuster
WARNING to everyone:

This is an UNSUPPORTED TEST version of the new LotAdjuster (0.1.0). Use at your own risk.

Here is a link to the current supported version of this tool:
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?p=1747180

Please Note:

If you are looking for the TEST version of the LotExpander which includes the ability to shrink a lot, please use version 1.2.7.8:

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?p=1801236

There is no need to download a newer version.

This test version is for people who want to give feedback on the new UI. Please do not download this version unless you intend to test the new features and provide feedback.

Changes from LotExpander 1.2.8:

- New name to reflect the new functionality.
- New keyboard shortcuts to make navigation without a mouse more feasible.
- New UI for the advanced features.
- Move a lot and disassociate it from the road.
- Add or subtract roads from a lot.
- Shrink the size of a lot.
1. Land to be removed must be completely empty of objects and sims. If it is not, shrinking the lot may result in lot corruption and unexpected crashes. If a sim is currently interacting with an object on land which will be deleted, stop your sim and direct them onto the land which will be kept.

2. Shifting a building on a lot has not been implemented. If you shrink in one direction, you cannot grow on the other side of the lot. However, these two operations should be able to be done in two separate runs.
Please note, there is a small possiblity that I've broken existing logic during the UI changes. If you notice anything odd, please let me know right away.

[Update:]

Rmoved test version. Since there were 7 downloads, I assume that the regular testers all got a copy. Removing test version because lot shrinking may cause the game to CORRUPT your lot and neighborhood!
Test Subject
#821 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 5:10 AM
Hi, I just saw this mod today and praised God that I finally found it after 5 years. I'm curious how progress with breaking the 6x6 limit is coming, since this is something I've been wanting to do since well 5 years ago.

I've been experimenting with the SimPE for about 2 hours and so far have only been able to find a record for achieving this in the neighborhood scope (as opposed to on the lot). I still have to test it in a custom neighborhood from Sim City 4 where multiple roads won't interfere (I believe that's why it's crashing), but if you can share your knowledge in this area it would be much obliged.
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#822 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 5:23 AM Last edited by Mootilda : 3rd Nov 2007 at 5:29 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasus
I'm curious how progress with breaking the 6x6 limit is coming, since this is something I've been wanting to do since well 5 years ago.
As far as we can tell, 6.4 x 6.4 is probably the maximum size allowed, and the neighborhood doesn't really like lots which are not whole numbers of neighborhood tiles.

niol is the one who's been working on this, so I'll let him tell you more, or point you to his previous research on this thread. Or, you can go back several pages and search the thread for "64". Here's one post:

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?p=1795346
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#823 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 10:07 AM
Just from looking at your screenshots, I'd like to suggest a couple of changes of label in the new interface

"Decrease size of lot" should be "Enable decrease size" (or why not "shrink" as everyone has been using that term for some time now?) because otherwise they may choose positive numbers and think by ticking that they will be used as the amount to shrink by.

"This feature will move the lot away from the road" should be "This feature allows the lot to move away from the road" because they may be using it to move the building onto the road, or along the road. It's not going to automatically move the lot backwards.

I wouldn't have the warning about advanced options in red unless an advanced option has been selected. The user will start off alarmed by the red message and think they've already done something "wrong". Then when they get used to the red message being ok to see there they may fail to respond to the importance of red messages that are displayed later when they do finally choose an advanced option. So start with the general advanced option caution in black, allowing the red to show only when an advanced operation is activated.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Field Researcher
#824 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 10:47 AM
Yesterday I was working on my castle courtyard (3x3 lot, set as a park, placed in the middle with no road access) and tried to place a pedestrian portal 1 level up, on the top of the stairs (supposed to be the entrance to the castle). Not good. Made the game crash every time I tried to save. Moved portal to ground level, saved fine.
About roofs: I was trying to cut off a roof to make the house fit with the next one, and the result was that I saw the rest of the roof hanging in air outside of the lot. No problem with crashes, but ugly. (I have all expansions)

UI looks good, will test it all today
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#825 Old 3rd Nov 2007 at 10:56 AM Last edited by Inge Jones : 3rd Nov 2007 at 11:02 AM.
I saved my lot each time I moved my portals with no crashing. Were you still in build/buy mode when you saved, or had you returned to live mode first? Oh - was your house inhabited at all or were you still just setting it up?

I don't know if this makes any difference but every time I use the LotAdjuster I always enter the lot first to do one very simple build action such as placing a deck foundation on one square and then exit-with-save before going back in to do anything else. I wonder if other people are pushing their luck by going in the first time and staying in there doing all sorts of things before that first save and exit?

I also never do two successive passes of one lot through the LE without having opened and consolidated the lot in the hood in between.

I don't think the above caution is just a superstitious ritual because I think the game (certainly by the stage of development of BV) does some cleaning up of incongrous data when you save. Perhaps if you do too much to the lot before this happens, you have data on your well-placed items that is relying on data in your badly-placed items (that were due to be cleaned up by the game)

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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