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Pettifogging Legalist!
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#876 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:21 PM Last edited by plasticbox : 4th Nov 2007 at 4:34 PM.
UI:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aelflaed
I suggested 'maintain portals', I think that post was overlooked in today's frenzy.

That's too ambiguous I think. No, I know. It's too close to "maintenance" = "take care of" = "move". Keep in mind that the user may be a 15 year old in France who's just started to learn English in school.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootilda
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
how about "Ignore portals"? "Leave portals unchanged"?
Those are both still double negatives, although perhaps better. I think that what we need to do is focus the attention on what the user gains by using this feature, rather than focusing on what the program avoids doing. ("User must manually place portals."?)


OK, good point. Actually, what *does* the user gain .. why would anyone want to not move the portals? I must admit that's not really clear to me.

Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
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#877 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ingeli
So I was working on the Castle Courtyard Garden, part II, which includes an orchard. After shrinking both left and right side I had crashes on saving, and after a couple of trial-and-error found the problem: an apple tree placed to close (1 tile away) from the cut border. Took the two apple trees out before shrinking, no crashes on saving.
Dont know if this is helpful, but anyway.
(I have all expansions, no BV patch yet).
Yes, this is helpful information. It verifies that, at minimum, the game may have problems with objects which straddle the lot edge.
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#878 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
Does the OS send an error message to the application that gives the application time to write this log? Or does an application come with some form of instruction file that the OS uses to write the log for it as specified?
I believe that the compiler implements this feature, based on messages received from the operating system. However, I'm a bit fuzzy on the mechanics.

Hang on while I check with my compiler friend. Perhaps a bit too early for me to bother him right now... just be patient and I'll try to get an answer for you.
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#879 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:40 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 4th Nov 2007 at 5:21 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
I think Dizzy has a way of reading the exe...
As I've mentioned before: I believe that our (purchasers of the Sims 2 games) agreement with EA specifically forbids us from reverse-engineering the game. What you are suggesting may be illegal and could certainly force me into court in a foreign country. Not something that I relish.

I know that EA has done something to make it difficult to open the executable in a debugger, but that it is possible to attach a debugger to a running executable. However, even that would only get me access to the machine level hex code, which a disassembler can convert into potential assembly code. If EA provided symbols (which I'm sure that they share internally), then that would still only get me assembly (machine) level code - more readable than without symbols, but still very low-level code.

I've programmed and debugged assembly code before and I can tell you that it's time-consuming and difficult. NO ONE wants to do this, unless it's absolutely necessary. Most people (including professional programmers) don't even know how.

Something to remember: EA wants to protect their intellectual property. There may be ways of getting around this, but that doesn't make it legal.

[Update:] Of course, the fact that EA says that something is illegal, doesn't actually make it illegal; that's for the courts and lawmakers to decide. Still, I'd prefer to avoid being the one who's challenging this in court.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#880 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:52 PM
Well I wouldn't have said anything, only he's posted as much in open forums himself in the past. It's not something I would do myself, of course.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#881 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
When you say "test version", are you referring to 1.2.7.8? Or to the next version?
This won't be available until I implement the config file logic. So, it can't be 1.2.7.8 and it may not even be the next version. However, I certainly intend to look into adding this when possible.

In general, I don't like to leave features unfinished. Since I'm in the middle of the UI changes, I'd like to finish those before I focus on anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
Also, where do the instructions go on how to do this, in your opinion -- into the download thread/post of the version with shrinking potential (whichever that will be)? Or in the shrinktutorial? Or somewhere else?
Good question. I think that the download thread for the test version is the appropriate place. What do you think?
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#882 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:48 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 4th Nov 2007 at 4:54 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
OK, good point. Actually, what *does* the user gain .. why would anyone want to not move the portals? I must admit that's not really clear to me.
Inge, I think that this is your question to answer, since you asked for the feature.

Hey, I caught up!

Just so everyone knows, I'm doing some hardware stuff on my internet machine this weekend. So, there will be periods when I'm not around. If I'm really unlucky and something gets fried, then I won't be on again until I get a new machine. I had my machine in pieces yesterday and expect to do more of the same today.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#883 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
OK, good point. Actually, what *does* the user gain .. why would anyone want to not move the portals? I must admit that's not really clear to me.


Actually... it's pretty quick for a user to delete or move unwanted portals if they didn't want them where the LA put them. I don't think it would be a great loss to lose this tickbox *unless* the user had carefully arranged them before shrinking. But if they know the LA will be moving them, then they won't complete that step before shrinking if they have any sense.

Quote:
Inge, I think that this is your question to answer, since you asked for the feature.


Gulp! Did I? If I did it was probably as a means to an end. Maybe I hadn't made the flamingo at the time. Oh - or maybe in case there was a use for an off-lot portal, I seem to remember we were speculating what might happen with a portal located beyond the lot boundaries.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#884 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 4:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inge Jones
Gulp! Did I? If I did it was probably as a means to an end.
Why don't you think about this a while and decide whether it's still a useful feature? If not, I'm glad to remove it. If it is useful, maybe you can explain why, then we can all brainstorm on wording.
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator
#885 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:05 PM
Just for reference -- I know you said you'd take a break from the shrinking code: a couple of posts up, I asked whether there's any difference between roof code and roof wall code (regarding my corrupt roof lot), and now I've just seen that you already answered this, in the context of using the auto roof tool on a shrunk lot:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootilda
The auto peaked roof which creates walls at the ends (is this called a "gabled" roof?) will build the roof, but not the end walls at the edge of the lot.

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthre...117#post1802117

So .. maybe it's not the roof that's the problem, but the roof walls.

Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#886 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthre...117#post1802117

So .. maybe it's not the roof that's the problem, but the roof walls.


I think this just means it's acting like any other wall in build mode, refusing to be built on the edge tile of the lot.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#887 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:19 PM
Ok, someplace else I see info missing: No one has stated whether or not they have applied wall paper to their pre-shurnken lot: If the LE/LA is truncating objects at the edge, re the apple tree, then it might be truncating wallpaper data of lots with walls built at the edges, the paper on the outer side of the wall--the part that gets 'shrunk'?


When the LE first came about, everyone was aware that it might cause their lots to crash/corrupt. We ate the LE up anyway, we so wanted this ability. In particular, I wanted the small lots, the 1x1 and all the !x? series of lot sizes. I keep the series in my bin and go first for them over Maxis lots. (I have tons of little lots, love them, can't wait for the little beaches.) I have never had a crash, not once in any of them. Big crowded lots and DL lots, yes, they crash for me.

I have burned up one hood--I'm fairly sure that was the result of too many buildings on the terrain (a custom terrain with roads to the very edges, and I was trying to fill it up ). When it started to corrupt it was expressed in lots failing to open and doing so randomly, not opening today, opening fine tomorrow kind of thing. I finally started bulldozing--and lots started opening normally again. I also had over 1300 character files. The point: it wasn't Andi's small lots that corrupted my hood--it was EA's/my input combination that did it. EA and I am responsible for it, not Andi or any other creator of CC that was kind enough to share with me.

So: mootilda, I think almost everyone but the newest of 12 year olds is going to be aware that any download might give them problems, any lot they download might hurt their hood, any lot they expand might hurt their hood and it is only keeping with the tradition: any lot they shrink might hurt their hood. Stop feeling responsible for the possiblity of it happening, not your bad. You are doing a marvelous and much wanted thing here. We, the people, accept as we hit the DL button to willingly suffer a few bad crashes and hood replacement days for the abilities you are giving us. Sleep better!

And yes, mootilda, I plan on trying the LE/LA reaching over the network asap, but that may be several days from now.
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#888 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
I know you said you'd take a break from the shrinking code
Although I intend to avoid making any code changes to the shrinking feature for a while, I think that it's very reasonable for us to continue to discuss the feature here. After all, it's a good thing to get our ideas out on the table whenever we think of them.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#889 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
Ok, someplace else I see info missing: No one has stated whether or not they have applied wall paper to their pre-shurnken lot: If the LE/LA is truncating objects at the edge, re the apple tree, then it might be truncating wallpaper data of lots with walls built at the edges, the paper on the outer side of the wall--the part that gets 'shrunk'?


With my lots, which are apparently non-crashing, I have not tried changing their external decor after shrinking.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#890 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:34 PM Last edited by Mutantbunny : 4th Nov 2007 at 5:56 PM.
So you DO place wallpaper before shrinking?

EDIT: Mootilda: reaching thru the network is great! I'm gonna start with an empty beach 4x5 and shrink it, see what I get....yea!
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#891 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
Stop feeling responsible for the possiblity of it happening, not your bad. You are doing a marvelous and much wanted thing here. We, the people, accept as we hit the DL button to willingly suffer a few bad crashes and hood replacement days for the abilities you are giving us. Sleep better!
Thank you for the kind words. However, I think that I will always feel responsible for software that I write. The various posts between Oct 24th and 28th helped me to understand that people may want these advanced features, even if they are known to have problems. This is why I've been trying to come up with a way to give people access to those features, while making it a bit harder for people to accidently use them without understanding the risks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
And yes, mootilda, I plan on trying the LE/LA reaching over the network asap, but that may be several days from now.
Since you weren't able to test this right away, I tried it on my machines. No problems with LE on Windows XP accessing the neighborhood and lot files on another machine. So, it looks like there's a good chance that this will work for you, too.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#892 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
So you DO place wallpaper before shrinking?


Yes, I get the houses fully built and decorated externally before shrinking. Mainly in case I can't do it after shrinking, rather than anything more meaningful. I think I had already decided not to touch the actual "party" walls (walls intended for being on the boundary of another lot) at all after the shrink, because I could see graphical artefacts on them after shrinking (stripes and stuff) which made me feel uneasy. But of course the front walls in some cases players would want to change them to make the row look realistic and lived in.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator
#893 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootilda
(shrinking/config file)
This won't be available until I implement the config file logic. So, it can't be 1.2.7.8 and it may not even be the next version. However, I certainly intend to look into adding this when possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
Also, where do the instructions go on how to do this, in your opinion -- into the download thread/post of the version with shrinking potential (whichever that will be)? Or in the shrinktutorial? Or somewhere else?

Good question. I think that the download thread for the test version is the appropriate place. What do you think?

The less tech support ends up in the tutorial, the better. Still, it should mention something like "get version 1.2.3.4 and edit the config file to enable shrinking (see instructions in the download thread)", because that's a required step.

Also, it should have up-to-date pointers (or non-pointers for that matter) .. do I get this right:

* right now there's no version available that does shrinking
* it will be added back into a future version as a disabled option (to be enabled via editing a config file)

?

Let me know. Actually, this is exactly why I was thinking it might be good if others could edit the tutorial as well .. if you update/change/remove a required tool, you could just go and change the links/notes on your own then.

Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
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#894 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
So you DO place wallpaper before shrinking?


I have definitely placed wallpaper on the outside walls before shrinking. I've never had a crash with shrunken lots, although I haven't shared them so testing has been limited.

I have had some issues with furniture placed against the outside wall, but I haven't verified that these problems are specifically related to the shrinking code... could just be the normal game issues with small rooms and lots of people.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#895 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:52 PM
At one time I was thinking we might have to build the beween-lot dividing wall one tile in from the new edge and only use the front and back walls to give the impression of the houses adjoining - ie leaving some blank space between the living spaces. I was very surprised a) that the walls right on the edge stayed standing and b) that they could be decorated and c) there was no graphical fighting with the lot imposter's boundary wall.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
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#896 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 5:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
do I get this right:
* right now there's no version available that does shrinking
* it will be added back into a future version as a disabled option (to be enabled via editing a config file)
Both are correct. I believe that I have removed all test versions which have the shrinking feature, and I intend to release a new test version with the shrinking feature - hopefully with the config file logic. I did this because people were continuing to download the test version and I wanted to restrict access for a while (until everything calms down a bit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticbox
Actually, this is exactly why I was thinking it might be good if others could edit the tutorial as well .. if you update/change/remove a required tool, you could just go and change the links/notes on your own then.
I'm very willing to be a member of a group with the ability to update your tutorial.

I just want you to be aware that I won't be monitoring the tutorial thread as carefully as I try to monitor this research thread. More like what I was doing with MATY - try to sign on once a day or so, skim over the posts without reading carefully, respond infequently.

On this thread, I try to read everything that everyone says and to respond to every post if I believe that I have something to add. It takes a lot of time, but I feel that I've received so much from everyone's participation that it's been well worth my time.
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator DELETED POST
4th Nov 2007 at 6:45 PM Last edited by plasticbox : 4th Nov 2007 at 6:51 PM.
This message has been deleted by plasticbox. Reason: organisational stuff; obsolete
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#897 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 6:49 PM
HP's bringing it back for you. To modding discussion

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator DELETED POST
4th Nov 2007 at 6:51 PM
This message has been deleted by plasticbox. Reason: organisational stuff; obsolete
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#898 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 6:55 PM
While the reaching across the network is good, the LA doesn't work for actual lot editing. I checked sharing and permissions, etc. But it won't work. I think maybe it's the difference between the LA on an XP 32 bit system trying to change lots on a Vista 64 bit system--but what do I know? So I tried pulling the folder over to the XP desktop--still won't work. SimPE 63 in place, Net 2 in place, what could be wrong?
Mad Poster
#899 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 7:11 PM Last edited by niol : 19th Nov 2007 at 1:45 PM.
Default [LA/LE - UI & versions tests][Modding tricks][chit-chat]Thread Splitting Organisation
[LA/LE - UI & versions tests]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootilda
I'm not sure what "maintain portals" means?
...


I guess aelflaed might mean "portals unmoved". Lol, please keep this feature, I'm one of those who bother to re-arrange the portals manually... even before shrinking. I see there're still some experiments for this.


[Modding tricks]

BTW, to keep the neighbourhood package not to be over-written, open it in SimPE or simply make it read-on while starting the game and work on the potentially corrupted lots without moving them. I did that when I made highly risky modifications on the lot files for testings. The lot files and the neighbourhood files are backed up before.


[chit-chat]

Now, I've deleted most of the crashing shrunken lots by LE 1277. And start to do more exp. with LE/LA 127B in a new neighbourhood. So far, so good relatively. Probably, that little fixes did magics...

But, I'm gonna test the roofs since all my wall-at-the-edge lots didn't cause any crash.

I know there are some people made funny crashes.
It's great that these some of the people didn't follow the suggestions as mentioned in the Row house tutorial carefully and messed up their lots, so they'll learn it from the hard ways. These distractions we've to remember clearly. After all, there may be some other unexpected problems uncovered like that.


Thread Splitting Organisation

A numeric list of suggestions for easy checking?
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#900 Old 4th Nov 2007 at 7:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantbunny
While the reaching across the network is good, the LA doesn't work for actual lot editing. I checked sharing and permissions, etc. But it won't work. I think maybe it's the difference between the LA on an XP 32 bit system trying to change lots on a Vista 64 bit system--but what do I know? So I tried pulling the folder over to the XP desktop--still won't work. SimPE 63 in place, Net 2 in place, what could be wrong?
Are you getting any error messages? How far do you get in the process before things start to go wrong?
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