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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 17th May 2016 at 9:31 PM Last edited by gummilutt : 17th May 2016 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Clarification
Default Skill point rewards from dates/outing debate
Anyone who has read Stupid Questions FAQ the past couple of days knows there's been a discussion regarding getting skill points as reward when a date ends, with some disagreement on whether it exists at all, and lots of wondering how it actually works.

I decided to dig around, and rather than keep dominating the Stupid Questions FAQ on this topic, I thought it would be better to move it to a new topic. More room for stupid questions in that thread, and easier to find this one in the future, should anyone want to.

Anyone wishing to see what was said in Stupid Questions FAQ, will find the discussion starting on page 43, post #1069 by AndrewGloria, click here to open it.

Results
The BHAV deciding if a Sim earns a point is called Skill Gain - Point Earned?. There are a couple of lines that I'm not sure how to interpret, but here's what I think it's doing. It starts by checking what the score is, then it sets a temporary value to a certain number based on what the score was. It sets a number if the date was anywhere from OK to Dream Date. If it's less than OK, the BHAV ends. Outings appear to use the same scoring names in the code, although what we see is rocking rather than dream date, and so on.

Once it's set a number, it's counting how many skill points in total, and adding to the number stored in temporary. I'm a little fussy on the skill total part, it appears to be calculated by another BHAV called Skill Gain - Sum Up Skills, and I don't understand that one sufficiently to tell which Sims it's checking. All I can say is that it's doing something related to checking Sim(s) and determinine a skill total. When it's added the number, it will use the number in temporary to decide which line of a BCON to pull a % chance from (BCON is called Outing - Skill Gain Constants). Higher date score = better base numbers for the % chance. A dream date with 71+ in total skill will have a 70% chance of getting a skill point, whereas a great date with 71+ has a 40% chance, a good one 20% and an okay one only 7%. When it's pulled the %, it will randomize a number and see if it falls within the % range. If it does, the Sim gains a skill point, if it doesn't, the Sim doesn't.

The Pointed Earned? BHAV is being called by a BHAV called Skill Gain - Award Skill Points, which appears to first run Sum Up Points, then Points Earned? and proceed to decide which skill point is gained. That one is making my brain say NOPE, too many unfamiliar operands for me to attempt to understand it right now. But all skills are listed in the BHAV, and I would guess that means you can gain all of them. It tests cleaning first, so perhaps most people see cleaning because that comes first and it stops looking. Can't say for certain without deciphering the code, and right now my brain doesn't want to do that.

As for the core, the BHAV starting the whole process that eventually calls these Skill Gain BHAVs, that's a little confusing. The only BHAV I can find that is calling Skill Gain - Award Skill Points is a BHAV called Interaction - End Date/Outing. Interaction-BHAVs are generally what the game runs when you select a pie menu option, in this case the one letting us end a date or outing prematurely. I have a looked, but I don't see anything else calling the Interaction-BHAV, or the Award Skill Points BHAV. That means one of two things. It could be that I've just not found link, either because I missed it or because it's part of some other group that's brought into action by the date controller or some other token. Or it means that you will only gain skills from dates if you actively end the date before the timer runs out naturally. If that's the case, combined with the low percentage chance of the skill gain triggering at all, it might explain why it's so rare that Sims gain skill points.

What I wonder is if one career reward excludes an other. Does getting a skill point mean you can't also get a promotion or a restaurant coupon? The BHAVs controlling the rewards are creating lots of tokens and controllers, and I'm not that good with that side of code so it's difficult to understand what's going on. So while I can say that having a dream date and a total skill of 71+ means you have a 70% chance of getting a skill, I can't say if every dream date with total of 71+ skill would mean that 70% chance is tested. Though that part should be easy enough to test, if anyone is willing to do the grunt work. I could make a mod that sets the chance to 100% regardless of total skill and date score, and it should just be a matter of seeing if your Sim gets a skill point every time a date ends. Might also help test if it could happen when the timer runs out naturally, or if it requires player-direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iCad
In addition, since those other rewards are available for outings as well, and not just dates as the bouquets and letters are, it would make sense that they wouldn't be part of the End Date BHAV.


Indeed. In the chain of BHAVs handling the end of a date/outing, End Date is not the start. When a date ends, both naturally and player-directed, a BHAV called End will run, and if it's a date, it will progress to End Date, and if it's an outing, it will instead run End Outing. The calculation of rewards like skill gain, promotions and coupons are run during other parts of the BHAV-chain.

Also, while trying to find the core BHAV that ties it all together, I found some random data on the job promotion aspect. Based on what a BCON says, it would seem the promoting Sim has to be at least career level 3 in order to be able to cause a promotion, and it does indeed appear to be checking that the two Sims are working in the same career. I can't promise that's the full story though, because I didn't want to get too deep into it or I'd be here all night The promotion stuff seems to come into play via a BHAV called End - Create Reward Token, which is run in the chain of events following a date ending (both naturally and by player-direction).

Summary: Skill point gain is a real thing, but it may be that it can only happen if the date/outing is ended prematurely by player-direction. The higher the score on the date/outing, the higher the chance that the Sim will gain a skill. Chance is also affected by a total skill count. Maximum chance is obtained by having a total skill count of 71+, but at the moment I don't know what the game uses to calculate the total skill count. Code would suggest that all skill points could be gained this way, but no definitive proof as I haven't been able to decipher that BHAV yet. At this point it's uncertain if the skill gain calculation is run on every date, or if the game picks one reward and only checks that one.

I don't know how understandable this is to anyone that doesn't do code/modding, it's hard to explain without using technical terms. But I thought I'd at least give it a shot and share what I found If any other modders feel like chipping in and looking at it further, the group is 0x7F9EE20D.


If you have questions on how to use SimPE or WW, you're welcome to PM me.
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#2 Old 17th May 2016 at 9:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
Summary: Skill point gain is a real thing, but it may be that it can only happen if the date/outing is ended prematurely by player-direction. The higher the score on the date/outing, the higher the chance that the Sim will gain a skill. Chance is also affect by a total skill count. Maximum chance is obtained by having a total skill count of 71+, but at the moment I don't know what the game uses to calculate the total skill count. Code would suggest that all skill points could be gained this way, but no definitive proof as I haven't been able to decipher that BHAV yet. At this point it's uncertain if the skill gain calculation is run on every date, or if the game picks one reward and only checks that one.


And the angels sing. Or the bunnies hop.

You are my hero, gummilutt. Thank you for proving that it exists.

You have also explained why perhaps some have never seen it, even if they have run a lot of dates. It's the ending early! I *almost always end my dates early,* because I almost always have them as high as I want them with still something like 5 minutes left on the timer (because it keeps adding time as you rank it higher, and mine usually rank higher very fast). So if both parties already have their Have a Dream Date With want up in their panels, I end it then, just to make sure they get the want. Then I let them free-range for a while anyway. But I figure they might as well take advantage of the motive boost sooner, rather than later!

So if others always let the timer run itself down, then that could be why they have never seen this phenomenon that us few staunch believers have insisted does occur. Wow.

It is all just very interesting---in fact, I haven't time at the moment to read it as thoroughly as I'd like, but when I am back later I will, and I'll probably have something further to say then.

Can't help but wonder whether the programmers meant for these little extras then to be a bonus---you know, get the Dream Date without even having to use all the time allotted! And so they made it a bit of an easter egg, hidden so well that many players would not have realized it exists.

Yay, I'm so very pleased.
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
#3 Old 17th May 2016 at 10:28 PM
Ah yes, random gaining of skill points for no particularly apparent reason. Yes, I've seen that. I thought there must be some reason.

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#4 Old 17th May 2016 at 10:36 PM
@gummilutt
Great research! Most interesting, I shall have to send my sims on more dates. Thanks for posting this!
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#5 Old 18th May 2016 at 9:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
But all skills are listed in the BHAV, and I would guess that means you can gain all of them. It tests cleaning first, so perhaps most people see cleaning because that comes first and it stops looking.


Boy, that explains so much right there about why even folks who have seen the cleaning point may have never seen any other skills gained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
I can't say if every dream date with total of 71+ skill would mean that 70% chance is tested. Though that part should be easy enough to test, if anyone is willing to do the grunt work. I could make a mod that sets the chance to 100% regardless of total skill and date score, and it should just be a matter of seeing if your Sim gets a skill point every time a date ends. Might also help test if it could happen when the timer runs out naturally, or if it requires player-direction.


I'll be happy to do that grunt work! But please don't rush to make the mod. I know you said you were busy, and this can wait. We know this exists, and that was the big thing, and you've done plenty already by finding that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
- Sim Gets Food dropped on them
- Get food Dropped on
- Sim Throws Up
- Throw Up
- Sim Bladder Fails
- Bladder Fail
...
While this is purely theoretical and nothing but guessing from my part, it would be interesting to experiment with these and see if date score go up/down when these happen.


I can tell you right now that having food dropped on either of the two sims on the date *does* push the score down instantly! Same with bladder failure. I've seen both. (I do like to explore the boundaries...) So I would guess that indeed, all the rest are also things that move the score!
Mad Poster
#6 Old 18th May 2016 at 9:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
- Sim buys Liked food


According to the Prima Guide, ordering your date's favorite food "can substantially improve Date score". (Watch the date's thought bubble when he/she first looks at the menu to see what his/her favorite food is.) I haven't tested to see how much this raises the Date score and they don't make it clear whether it would also improve the score for an Outing.

I don't often take my sims' dates out to eat at restaurants because it take up so much time that could be better used to raise the Date score by flirting, making out, and woohooing.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#7 Old 18th May 2016 at 9:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by natboopsie
Boy, that explains so much right there about why even folks who have seen the cleaning point may have never seen any other skills gained.


Just to be extra clear, I don't know for certain that it's not running the entire BHAV. I wasn't in the right mindset to try and decipher it, so all I can say for certain is that the BHAV has parts about all skill types, and that cleaning is the first thing it looks at. That it might stop looking if it decides to do cleaning was just a theory based on the fact that it comes first in the process, and you and several others report only having seen cleaning things. It could be something else entirely

Quote:
Originally Posted by natboopsie
I'll be happy to do that grunt work! But please don't rush to make the mod. I know you said you were busy, and this can wait. We know this exists, and that was the big thing, and you've done plenty already by finding that out.


I was hoping you might say that I'll make the mod when I have a moment to spare, and get back to you. Perhaps you could re-schedule the reminder to tell me to look to remind me to do the mod, if I haven't done it by then

Quote:
Originally Posted by natboopsie
I can tell you right now that having food dropped on either of the two sims on the date *does* push the score down instantly! Same with bladder failure. I've seen both. (I do like to explore the boundaries...) So I would guess that indeed, all the rest are also things that move the score!


Fascinating! Thanks for the info. I'll definitely start incorporating those events more often in my game, see what happens. Would be kind of neat to be able to throw a curveball to a date, and have the Sim wet their pants or throw up right as the date is about to end. Or have a fortune Sim show off their wealth by giving huge tips, to impress their new fling. I've been meaning to have my very sick pregnant Sims' boyfriend ask her on a home date, to cheer her up, I should get around to that next time I play. If she doesn't throw up, pass out or wet herself before it's over, I'm a squirrel

If you have questions on how to use SimPE or WW, you're welcome to PM me.
Undead Molten Llama
#8 Old 19th May 2016 at 12:21 AM
I can confirm that a Sim throwing up while on a date lowers the score pretty significantly. I had a pregnant Sim on a home date with her husband (They had a toddler and I don't allow nannies in my game, so they had to stay home for the date they both wanted), and she left the dining table to throw up. Prior to the throwing up, the date was about halfway between "great" and "dream." It immediately dropped to a little above "good." Pretty big hit. However, so far as I've seen, first-trimester pregnant Sims won't throw up on a community lot (Perhaps because the pregnancy controller is on the home lot? As is the sickness token if they have food poisoning?), so I'm pretty sure you're only ever going to have barfing Sims on home dates.

Also, I usually do end dates early, generally once it gets to "Dream" status and the Sim who initiated the date rolls up the "Have a dream date" want. Once it's at "dream" I just don't see much point in continuing the date. So....Yeah.

@gummilutt: Thanks for the thorough investigation of this. It's fascinating to know how this game "thinks." I'm only just starting to learn about BHAVs, though, so this isn't really something I could have looked into myself.

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#9 Old 19th May 2016 at 1:23 AM Last edited by natboopsie : 19th May 2016 at 1:58 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
Just to be extra clear, I don't know for certain that it's not running the entire BHAV. I wasn't in the right mindset to try and decipher it, so all I can say for certain is that the BHAV has parts about all skill types, and that cleaning is the first thing it looks at. That it might stop looking if it decides to do cleaning was just a theory based on the fact that it comes first in the process, and you and several others report only having seen cleaning things. It could be something else entirely


Well noted! Although I'll say that I believe that only once I did see another type of point gained. I remember it, though, because of course that sim needed a Cleaning point for promotion, lol. But I'm sure that was not just the game being mean.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
I was hoping you might say that I'll make the mod when I have a moment to spare, and get back to you. Perhaps you could re-schedule the reminder to tell me to look to remind me to do the mod, if I haven't done it by then


Good! Yes, I certainly will.

"Gummilutt the squirrel" is quite the epithet, so I was almost looking forward to you being made one....but I agree that it's pretty interesting stuff to even just think that there are specific events that are meant to give date bonuses or penalties. I'd never have thought about tipping large to impress the date...though of course that happens in real life! Little things like that make me appreciate Maxis all over again.

Editing to add:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iCad
Also, I usually do end dates early, generally once it gets to "Dream" status and the Sim who initiated the date rolls up the "Have a dream date" want. Once it's at "dream" I just don't see much point in continuing the date. So....Yeah.


Agreed. Though I make sure the date does continue for as long as it takes for at least one (and sometimes both, if I'm controlling them both) to roll up that want. I suppose I take it as a signal about whether or not that sim is OK with the date officially ending at that point---especially because I notice it only rolls up a couple of date-meter levels *before* dream date and will roll away in the meantime if not locked. I figure that makes it both a hope (in the first instance) and then a...hint (in the second instance), I suppose.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#10 Old 19th May 2016 at 2:20 AM
Haha. Gummilutt the Squirrel. Not quite the same, but you could call me Sister Squiggles. One of my american friends calls me that, amongst other things. He thinks the Swedish language looks and sounds like squiggles, and the Sister part is from the internet comic Scandinavia and the World, where one of the characters is called Sister Sweden. But since Swedish is squiggles, it is instead Sister Squiggles.

I'll take another crack at the BHAV deciding which skill is earned at some point, see if I can't figure out how it decides which to give. I've learned that what may seem like greek one day may be perfectly clear a week later. Neurons need to be lined up right, and the moon in it's right phase, or something

Quote:
Originally Posted by iCad
@gummilutt: Thanks for the thorough investigation of this. It's fascinating to know how this game "thinks." I'm only just starting to learn about BHAVs, though, so this isn't really something I could have looked into myself.


I'm sure you'll be twice as good as me in no time Six months ago I couldn't have either, but after I started poking around with hidden interactions things started falling into place. Much thanks to patient more knowledgeable people that let me pick their brains.

If you have questions on how to use SimPE or WW, you're welcome to PM me.
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#11 Old 21st May 2016 at 5:06 AM Last edited by natboopsie : 21st May 2016 at 5:47 AM.
OK, Sister Squiggles it is. Well, except I can't resist easy alliteration, so it might have to be Sister Squiggles the Squirrel. Or Squiggles the Squirrely Sister. Or Squirrely...

Right, shutting up. Especially because in another thread today, you mentioned being tired, so it's good you get your rest.

Take care of yourself, and at least from my point of view, no rush on figuring out how the game decides which skill is earned. I'm sure we'll get there eventually. We're off to a good start already, SSS!
Mad Poster
#12 Old 22nd May 2016 at 1:24 PM
I once had a sim pass out from tiredness on a date and it immedlately tanked the date score.

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#13 Old 22nd May 2016 at 3:12 PM
I have dates and outings that don't end early by player fiat, and yes skill points are still gained.

As for scoring, in general, good things that please participants raise the score, bad things lower it Fulfilling wants raise it, fulfilling fears lower it. It's not mysterious. The management of the various factors is the tough part.Having dates refuse to eat served food when dining *isn't* involved or to go to the bathroom despite really needing to can tank things quickly, just for example.
Mad Poster
#14 Old 11th Jun 2016 at 12:12 AM Last edited by AndrewGloria : 11th Jun 2016 at 12:41 AM.
I got this today at the end of the first date between Carla Cameron and Bianca Monty, my first lesbian couple. At least it proves that it really happens and I didn't just imagine it!



It was of course a dream date. [WARNING: Drifting off topic. . .] It was in fact already a dream date with over 5 hours to go. But they went on to have a meal out and get engaged during the meal. And it stayed a dream date despite Kent Capp's boyfriend stealing Bianca Monty's food! Carla just ordered another helping for her new fiancée. Kent is going to have to speak sternly to his boyfriend.

[EDIT] P.S. I did end this date early, because they had achieved everything they had set out to achieve, and Carla wanted to go to work. She ended the date with about an hour to run.

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Field Researcher
#15 Old 11th Jun 2016 at 9:55 AM
Based only on my personal experience (so not scientifically reliable at all) I have only seen cleaning skill points from dates, while outings have given other types of skills as well. This could, of course, be because of some difference in play style between the two.
Mad Poster
#16 Old 11th Jun 2016 at 10:01 AM
Outings - Sims gain points depending on the crowd they hang out with; and I had Sims gain anything from cooking to creativity to mechanical - and saw a Sim relaxing in a hot tub gain a physical point ( ) - and I am not sure that, when they are on outings, the skill is gained only at the end; I think it can happen during the outing.
Theorist
#17 Old 13th Jun 2016 at 4:24 PM
Most often my sims end dates early since they're at dream date status. That explains why they so often gain skills. The controlled sim, or in the case of living on the same lot, the sims who initiates the date will gain skills. Never thought to check and see if both sims gain them. I have noticed that some romance type options will have a star, meaning more date points if those ones are chosen, but, if the relationship points aren't high enough for those starred options, it will drop the date score if the other sim reacts negatively. My sims date quite a lot, so I've learned to watch their relationships and most often know not to try certain options too soon. My sims focus on cooking and cleaning at the start of moving into a lot, just to avoid the autonomous cooking with fire hazard and for sloppy sims to be a bit neater. The skills can occasionally be related to what activities they do on dates. Bowling will be more apt to give a body skill, for example.

I haven't played in several months do to long hours of physical therapy, doctor appointments and testing every week. Once I begin to play again, I'll probably do more note taking on what happens during dates. My curiosity wants to know more. (:

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Mad Poster
#18 Old 13th Jun 2016 at 5:18 PM
Get well soon, Duine
Scholar
#19 Old 13th Jun 2016 at 6:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxEllen1965
According to the Prima Guide, ordering your date's favorite food "can substantially improve Date score". (Watch the date's thought bubble when he/she first looks at the menu to see what his/her favorite food is.) I haven't tested to see how much this raises the Date score and they don't make it clear whether it would also improve the score for an Outing.

I don't often take my sims' dates out to eat at restaurants because it take up so much time that could be better used to raise the Date score by flirting, making out, and woohooing.


I usually try to get the date score up to good before sitting down to dinner. Also when the waiter comes just order chef's choice for all and they automatically bring everyone's favorite food, this works for both outings and dates.

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Mad Poster
#20 Old 13th Jun 2016 at 7:39 PM
I almost always end dates early. I see a skill point gain very, very rarely, always cleaning. Sometimes this seems silly to me because the date is known to not be at all tidy: a playable with 0 cleaning points. Less than one-tenth of the time, probably closer to one-one-hundredth. I ran at least six dates during the last college rotation, (romancers ahoy!) and all were good or great, none of them resulted in skill points.

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Field Researcher
#21 Old 14th Jun 2016 at 9:48 AM Last edited by clsve : 14th Jun 2016 at 11:15 AM.
Some technical stuff that I have found by SimPE from the objects.package:
In the game Dating is handled by Controller - Date (GUID = 0x4F7AB31A, Group = 0x7F362A09 ) and Outings by Controller - Group (GUID = 0x8F277757, Group = 0x7F98E48F) . Both of them contains a sort of count-down timer (in Function Main). When time is out (the timer reaches 0 or the date/outing is cancelled by player) the controller call BHAV End() which in turn call BHAV End - Date() for dates and BHAV End - Outing(Your sim) for outings. Both End - Date() and End - Outing(Your sim) use primtive Push Interaction to push BHAV Interaction End - Date/ Outing() to your sims Interaction Queue. This Interaction call BHAV Skill Gain - Award Skill Points() which calculates skills and handles wants in a rather complicated way using the BHAV's gummilutt found earlier. So dates and outings get their skills awards calculated in the same BHAV but there is a certain amount of randomness built in to it.

If there is jealousy involved in the date there is no skills points award. End - Date() start with a test for jealousy and terminate if there is.

The calculations of skills uses values from BCON 0x2005 Outing - Skill Gain Constants. The calculations depends both on the outcome of the date/outing (Dream date / Rocking outing etc) and present skills levels. It's possible to manipulate Skills gained from dates/outing by use of SimPE for extracting this BCON and make a mod-package with changed values.

If you want to change the text in the pop-ups during dates/outings then use SimPE to extract Text-List 0x12D Dialog prim string set from the controller groups (0x7F362A09 and 0x7F98E48F) and make packages with changed texts.

About Push Interaction.
From Sims Wiki ( http://modthesims.info/wiki.php?title=0x000D ) we learn:
Primitive Push Interaction provides a way to cause another interaction to be added to your Sims queue of interactions from BHAV code instead of by the user clicking on it. Useful when an interaction that could be chosen by the user is also needed from code. In order to choose the interaction to push, you need to know what number it is in the object's TTAB.

In this case we have to use the TTAB in the same Group as BHAV End(), End - Date() and End - Outing (Group = 0x7F9EE20D).

The TTAB has 7 interactions : 0 Go Here, 1 Sit, 2 Eat, 3 End Outing, 4 Outing is Over, 5 Interaction - End Date/Outing, 6 Gather Casual Group

In the BHAV End - Date() we can see that the parameters in Push Interaction are (Target: Stack Object, Object: Local 0x0000 (controller), Interaction: Literal 0x0005, maximum priority,
Icon object: Local 0x0002 (null), Icon index: Literal 0x0001).
The Pushed Interaction is then 5 Interaction - End Date/Outing.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#22 Old 14th Jun 2016 at 5:40 PM
Great! Thanks for sharing that, answers a lot of questions. Now we know that regardless of how the date ends, skill points can be given. That was already clear by what people posted, but now we know why that's the case

If you have questions on how to use SimPE or WW, you're welcome to PM me.
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