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Theorist
#151 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 4:47 PM
If you're talking about Suzy or Sam, you're talking about a specific, known person with a specific, known gender, and you use the appropriate definite pronoun to refer to Sam or Suzy. If you add in Walter and Jenny, presumably you know their genders as well, and use the appropriate gender-specific pronoun when referring to them. And yes, a sentence or series of sentences made up of nothing but pronouns when there are multiple potential subjects that each pronoun could refer to is and always has been confusing and poor grammar - but that's a problem no matter what pronoun(s) you're using. Rephrasing or repeating names is both correct and helpful in those situations.

When you say "If it is only one person in a sentence..." the "it" is not standing for "the person" - the 'it" is standing for "the word replaced by the pronoun" - in which case, "it" is correct, since word are things and have no gender in English.

I have never met any native English speaker who used anything other than "they" as the third-person singular indefinite in speech, including a large number of university professors. But I am perfectly willing to believe that gazania had a different experience growing up, since different groupings have their own rules. (F'r instance, having lived in different parts of the country, I know and can use three different forms of second-person plural pronouns, each of which is considered weird but intelligible in places where it is not used.)

Sure, language changes - it changes all the time in response to what people need the language to do. Sometimes those changes happen really fast. That's totally cool, because the purpose of language is to communicate clearly and quickly. But not everything in language changes or has to change, and if something hasn't changed for 600 years, that's probably an indication that it's working just fine for clear and efficient communication.

esmeiolanthe's Live Journal and Tumblr
Most recent story update: Fuchs That! on 2/21/15
Theorist
#152 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 4:48 PM
I suppose this isn't a random thought since I think it all the time in game, but I wish there was a way to totally, 100%, block sims from using the dirty joke option. As soon as they become teens, but mostly at adult age it's constant. I'm going to build a cemetery for dead comedians soon if they don't stop. Cancelling doesn't help because they finish it anyway.

When you forgive, you heal. When you let go, you grow.
Scholar
#153 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:15 PM Last edited by BoilingOil : 13th Dec 2015 at 5:26 PM.
@Duine: I might look into making a mod that completely foils dirty jokes. Or maybe I make one that is configurable, and has an *option* to completely stop it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeiolanthe
If you're talking about Suzy or Sam, you're talking about a specific, known person with a specific, known gender.


Often, but not always. Sam could be short for Samuel or for Samantha. So if you never met Sam, you cannot be sure of their gender unless someone (probably Sam themselves) tells you. And what about people online who use some handle that isn't related to any conventional real life names? If I had not ticked the 'male' box in my profile, and had not put up a photograph of my RL face, you could never say for certain if BoilingOil was male or female. You could *guess*, but your guess could be wrong, too.
For a long time, on other fora, I've used an picture of one of my favorite sims, a *female*, for my avatar. If I avoid giving any clues as to my real identity, that may cause you to believe I'm female. So then you refer to me as *she*, and I'm insulted... great show!

On an MMORPG, I once used a female avatar. I played a female character with a female name... It took many people a while to accept that Shanythra was actually not a girl!

We assume, probably because Pescado has mentioned something to that effect, that he is male. But we can still not be certain, so 'they' might be approproiate for someone who hears of Pescado for the first time. Once others educate them as to Pes' apparent gender, then that changes, ofcourse.

But as you say, some people are educated differently, and in some communities different customs may be in effect. I'm not saying that I'm always right, because nothing is always as it seems.
Instructor
#154 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:23 PM
I recognize that with the constant dirty jokes with my sims as well. Especially the second generation of my family - make one of them invite a sibling to their home, leave them to their own and they'll follow each other around the house to tell each other dirty jokes until it's time to go home. I find it pretty amusing though, and frankly I'm no better myself - I'm quite curious about these jokes, what with the sound effects and gestures and speech bubbles. Okay, so this is a dirty joke involving a yellow airplane and a fish? Do go on...

I am Error.
Mad Poster
#155 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:25 PM Last edited by gazania : 13th Dec 2015 at 9:46 PM.
Yes, but if we have this free-range approach to personal pronouns, things can get REALLY messed up. He? She? They? Ze? Che? Thon? Bun? Sometime very, very soon, there needs to be some sort of accord among English-speakers, and among speakers of other languages as well if we're going to communicate more effectively. I know I'm not the only one who finds "they" confusing as a singular pronoun. (I have talked to others of all ages.) And here is where we have a problem. It can be a challenge to remember who wants what pronouns, and in what context. If it's a few friends, that's easy. But if you're dealing with the wide world of the Internet ... egads. (Remember ... many people DO prefer him/her. This does not make them bad people.)

This is not a question of bigotry to me. It's a question of clarity. And yeah ... maybe I'm getting a little more forgetful as I get on in years.

OK, now I'm curious. What IS the Swedish gender-neutral pronoun? It's Google time! (Oh, wow ... it's "hen". I remember reading about that one as a possible gender-neutral term quite a while ago. And I don't need a special character? I'm intrigued. I'd go for that one in formal ... and informal ... writing.)

Boiling Oil makes a good point, I admit I happen to have a name that is both male and female. If someone simply says "_________ is here", you would not know my gender if you did not see me clear or did not know me in advance. Maybe that's part of it, too. I grew up constantly correcting people who assumed I was the other gender before they met me. So I think I bring a different perspective on this. Maybe just a little. So no ... you cannot always assume who is what gender from simply reading a passage. I ought to know. But I do not prefer "they". Nope. I can't cooperate quietly, can I?

For now, though, Grammar Girl still makes sense to me. Until there IS an accord ("hen", maybe? It shouldn't be too confusing unless you're incorporating poultry in your passages), avoid the pronoun as much as possible. No hurt feelings, no dispute, no confusion. I like it, personally. I'd rather use the person's name a little more than cause any misunderstandings. Besides, it forces me to be more creative. Whether it's Suzy, them, she, ze ... you have to mix up your sentences a little; otherwise, it sounds tedious, no matter what you use. It also forces me to think beyond the pronoun, if that makes sense. Suzy has loved sledding since childhood. Really loves it. I could call Suzy a sledding aficionado to vary my sentences, rather than Suzy, them, she, ze ... ...

Thanks to ALL free-site creators, admins and mods.

RIP Sunni ... truly a ray of light.
Forum Resident
#156 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:26 PM Last edited by lorinsv60 : 13th Dec 2015 at 5:27 PM. Reason: Quoting Duine - this thread moves fast!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duine
I suppose this isn't a random thought since I think it all the time in game, but I wish there was a way to totally, 100%, block sims from using the dirty joke option. As soon as they become teens, but mostly at adult age it's constant. I'm going to build a cemetery for dead comedians soon if they don't stop. Cancelling doesn't help because they finish it anyway.

Not sure I'd want to ban dirty jokes completely because some of my Sims enjoy them, but boy, it quickly progresses to creepy harassment when one continues to tell them after the recipient is clearly offended. Herbert Goodie ran his marriage into the ground by constantly telling them to Faith after she clearly let him know she didn't appreciate them. I've never seen so many double-minuses and Xd-out hearts flying about!

Build a City Challenge on LiveJournal: Mesa Vista: my BaCC for fun
Mesa Vista Running list of chapters
Inventor
#157 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:28 PM
@Peni Griffin , that is kind of what I meant by preferring a pronoun that specifically refers to a known person rather than an unknown person, but I didn't make it very clear. I had wondered how difficult it would be make a sim that didn't fit the binary system.

Uh... sorry for the short post. Dealing with mutant allergies or cold or something and my brain is DOA...

Edit: Because I'm slow and missed posts. @BoilingOil , do you mean configurable per sim, or for frequency? Either sounds interesting!
Mad Poster
#158 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 5:55 PM
Thank you Peni, once again you made the argument I wanted to make, but could not vocalize. I'd like to say things about the name-gender-thing that's going on on this page, but I have such a hard time forming cohesive words about it. Just, guys, no. You can not tell what someones gender is from their name, no matter how much you think that name OUGHT to be a specific gender (or what they look like). There is no law or rule that state this or that name must be this gender, and the only person who knows what gender someone is, is the person in question.

I'm sure the appropriate english word will sort itself out, eventually. But let's keep in mind that the people who will decide what is best, is not the he's and she's of the world. It's all the people who don't fit into those gender-boxes.

If you have questions on how to use SimPE or WW, you're welcome to PM me.
Theorist
#159 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 6:07 PM
Boiling Oil, thanks, I would love to stop it completely. I always thought it was a learned action from other sims, it does appear to be. I hadn't seen it in the hood I'm now playing for awhile until one adult, now they're all doing it. Most of my sims don't seem to like them, majority rules. (: I never use the option thinking it would become annoying after awhile.

When you forgive, you heal. When you let go, you grow.
Mad Poster
#160 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 6:37 PM Last edited by gazania : 13th Dec 2015 at 9:46 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gummilutt
Thank you Peni, once again you made the argument I wanted to make, but could not vocalize. I'd like to say things about the name-gender-thing that's going on on this page, but I have such a hard time forming cohesive words about it. Just, guys, no. You can not tell what someones gender is from their name, no matter how much you think that name OUGHT to be a specific gender (or what they look like). There is no law or rule that state this or that name must be this gender, and the only person who knows what gender someone is, is the person in question.

I'm sure the appropriate english word will sort itself out, eventually. But let's keep in mind that the people who will decide what is best, is not the he's and she's of the world. It's all the people who don't fit into those gender-boxes.


While certainly, there would be the start of a consensually-agreed upon word in a smaller group initially, to make that word more mainstream and acceptable in formal writing and in general conversation, there would also need to be some sort of consensus with the he's and she's of the world as well ... would there not? I do not believe you can exclude them. Once again, I'm using "Ms." as an example, though I do know there was some resistance initially, and still is, though not even vaguely as much. For me, this would be somewhat of an equivalent. (Personally, using "Ms." doesn't bother me one way or the other.) But certainly, we're in the learning stages here. For a change in language, there needs to be some sort of accord with most of its speakers.

I should digress ... I know in some English-speaking countries, "they" has been an acceptable singular pronoun for quite some time. My apologies for being US-centric. But most Americans I knew growing up used "he" or "she". Ugh. Clarity can be a pain, sometimes!

(Just as a silly aside ...a little more about Mrs. Miss and Ms. http://www.newstatesman.com/cultura...-women-s-titles)

Thanks to ALL free-site creators, admins and mods.

RIP Sunni ... truly a ray of light.
Theorist
#161 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 7:27 PM
I am from the U.S. too, gazania. We just appear to have grown up in different parts of the country/time frames/social groups/some combination thereof.

In the examples with Suzy and Sam that were given earlier, the examples were of specific people that had just been specifically interacted with. Suzy is a known member of the household or family friend who just went sledding. Sam is someone who is an invited overnight guest and who just called on the phone. In both examples, the person is known, and so an indefinite pronoun is not required. I do know better than to assume that a name can only apply to one gender - I've known male Tracys and Leslies, female Ryans and Darnells, and Sams, Chrises, and Alexes of both genders. The examples given were of situations where an indefinite pronoun is inappropriate in the first place.

In almost every example given by BoilingOil, I use "they" unless and until I find out what Pescado/BoilingOil/esmeiolanthe want to be called. The one exception would be the MMORPG where the character is created, presented and played as female - then I would refer to the character as "she" and the player as "they" unless and until I was corrected on either or both counts, because that's the way those games are built to work.

esmeiolanthe's Live Journal and Tumblr
Most recent story update: Fuchs That! on 2/21/15
Mad Poster
#162 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 7:44 PM Last edited by gazania : 13th Dec 2015 at 7:59 PM.
And I just go with "Suzy", if the person's board name is Suzy, for instance. Even initially. Suzy seems to like the name. So "Suzy" it is. Easy for this old fart here to remember, and everyone is happy. Hopefully, Suzy is as well, anyway. If Suzy decides on a board name change, I use that name.

This dialog reminds me of an anecdote. After years of "Ms.", I simply used that form of address until I discerned whether the person wanted me to use a first name, a Mrs., Miss or Ms. or whatever. Apparently, though, one Mrs. Agnes Hufflepuff (not her real name) got really indignant with me when I used "Ms. Hufflepuff". She retorted, "I do NOT go by that Ms. nonsense. I am MRS. Hufflepuff, thank you!." Another life lesson for me in calling the person exactly the name the person uses. Unfortunately for me, Mrs. Hufflepuff was a somewhat important contact, though I did manage to sort the matter with Mrs. Hufflepuff satisfactorily after an embarrassed apology on my part. So from now on, it's Agnes Hufflepuff ... or whatever name. Makes Agnes Hufflepuff happy. Makes me happy. And we need much more happiness in the world. I like happiness.

Thanks to ALL free-site creators, admins and mods.

RIP Sunni ... truly a ray of light.
Scholar
#163 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 8:12 PM
@Devon Aster, @Duine

The way configurable "Less <whatever>" mods from my hand usually work, is that you can set the minimal or maximal value of certain personality traits or skill levels (in a BCON) to limit the number of sims that autonomously perform a certain action.
For example, if a sim is not outgoing enough, they don't want to impose, and therefor they will not tell dirty jokes. If they're not playful enough, they don't find dirty jokes funny themselves, so they will not tell them. And if they're very nice, they will consider another sim's feelings, and not tell dirty jokes, because that simply is not done in polite company.

So I would make the mod so that you could set the minimal Outgoing and Playful levels and the maximum Nice level. The higher you set the minima, and the lower you make the maximum, the fewer sims will tell dirty jokes. If you set min Outgoing and min Playful at 1001, and max Nice at -1, then no sim will ever be able to tell dirty jokes autonomously. But I would make sure that you still have the option to *order* them to tell such jokes.

Making it configurable per sim is very complicated. It would require a new token for every type of action one tries to curb or limit, and I'm not planning on doing that. So it would be personality- and skill-level based as described above.

I have made a number of mods based on this model already:
Theorist
#164 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 9:14 PM
- I think Louna Laferrière won't get her hospital any time soon.
Inventor
#165 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 9:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilingOil
Making it configurable per sim is very complicated. It would require a new token for every type of action one tries to curb or limit, and I'm not planning on doing that.


Whoops, you're right. I was being a silly on that. That sounds good. If you decide to do it, I will definitely keep an eye out for it. There are a few sims knocking around in my head who are shy and serious, and it always feels wrong to see them engage in dirty jokes.
Scholar
#166 Old 13th Dec 2015 at 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gazania
And I just go with "Suzy", if the person's board name is Suzy, for instance. Even initially. Suzy seems to like the name. So "Suzy" it is. Easy for this old fart here to remember, and everyone is happy. Hopefully, Suzy is as well, anyway. If Suzy decides on a board name change, I use that name.


I completely agree with that. But I prefer to PM Sam to ask them if they can help me, in stead of PM-ing Sam to ask Sam if Sam can help me, if you catch my drift.
Needs Coffee
retired moderator
#167 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 12:17 AM
This is why I have 'call me Jo' in my siggy, so people know exactly what to call me. of course not everyone sees it and I still get called Joan, when that 'an' is part of the word 'and' not my name.

"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives." - Unknown
~Call me Jo~
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#168 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 2:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gazania
I like happiness.
I like happiness too! The inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness is a constitutional right guaranteed to all my Sims. I believe you have that right in your country too. It's one of the few American thing that I really really like!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What have I started? I just mentioned the need for a universally accepted common gender pronoun because I didn't know how to refer to TumaSims. For some reason I have a mental picture of TumaSims as female, but @Pizzatron-9000 confidently talks about "he" and "him". (Does the Munchiebot know something I don't know??) TumaSims's profile says Gender Undisclosed, but I have a feeling (which may be totally erroneous) that it used to say something else before she/he deleted most of her/his posts. I don't mind using "they", if I'm referring to "the user" or "the player", but somehow it feels wrong to me when I know, and have just used, the person's name (or even, as in this case, their username). When I was at school I think the convention was just to use "he", and that was deemed to include "she" where appropriate. (Since it was an all boys school, it nearly always was a "he"!) But today that's considered non-inclusive language. So I used what I think is an alternative MTS convention, which I think Peni sometimes uses. Since most Simmers are female, if I don't know, I just use "she", and hope it doesn't give offence. I haven't been offended when I've been called "she". So, as I said, it would be good if there was a widely accepted common gender pronoun, for when you just don't know whether it's a "he" or a "she". A few years ago we had a man run an inquiry into the British police, whose name I thought might just do. His name was Sir Patrick Sheehy (pronounced "she-he")!

As for some of the suggested ones, I think some my Sims would actually like "bun". I have gay teen Romance boys who like it when the game calls them "hotties" and "total babes"!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Inappropriate dirty jokes: Andrew is serious and shy and he tells them. And somehow it just wouldn't be Andrew if he stopped telling them. He told one to the Rev. Elspeth Anderson, the priest, after church on Sunday. She didn't laugh. In fact they were all telling dirty jokes in church after the service, but nobody laughed at all, although some of the relationships were very good. It seems a lot of my Sims have some sense of propriety, and don't laugh when some tells a dirty joke in inappropriate circumstances. Martin Moltke, Julian's father, has a very good loving relationship with his wife Manuela, but he didn't accept the dirty joke she told him, quite literally over Albany Capp's head, when they both in the welcoming party that was supposed to be welcoming Albany and his family to their new house Cappland beside the market. Albany was trying to eat his lunch, and I'm sure whatever she said was highly inappropriate. Martin and Manuela are both police officers, and the third member of the welcoming team was none other than the Rev. Elspeth Anderson, the priest.

Does anyone know what the rules are for when Sims do and don't accept dirty jokes?

All Sims are beautiful -- even the ugly ones.
My Simblr ~~ My LJ
Sims' lives matter!
The Veronaville kids are alright.
Mad Poster
#169 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 2:35 AM
Personally I use the universal feminine when addressing simmers on the assumption that most of us are female. If it annoys male simmers - well, perhaps now they'll understand how it feels and why the universal masculine default bugs so many women! And I don't care if your pronoun is the Great Panjandrum, I'll try to use it if you go to the trouble to tell me. But I don't sweat what anybody else calls me (though the near universal tendency to stick an extra N in my name, when my name is right in front of people, makes me feel mildly despairing in some moods - I've had to deal with it so long, and expect I always will, and there's no point throwing a fit about it when I know it's not done maliciously).

What have you started, Andrew? Not a thing! You just came onto the internet, where this stuff happens.

Here's a randomish thought: For some reason, after some recent changes to our computer, when I upload something the default location the browser takes me to is not the last place from which we uploaded something, but the last place to which we downloaded something! And it does not correct itself - it will keep defaulting to that place no matter how much I upload from a different place, until I download to my upload location. Since my husband and I share a computer, and we both download, but I'm much more likely to upload (mostly pictures to tumblr), this has become a frequent annoyance, and I now find myself downloading CC I normally wouldn't, just so I can direct it to the file I'm currently uploading tumblr pictures from, so I don't have to navigate to an entirely different partition on the hard drive, six folders deep, for three to five posts a day.

Ugly is in the heart of the beholder.
(My simblr isSim Media Res . Widespot,Widespot RFD: The Subhood, and Land Grant University are all available here. In case you care.)
Theorist
#170 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 4:28 AM
BoilingOil I can deal with no jokes at all unless I direct them. I probably would occasionally just because it makes friendships a bit easier with another choice if needed.

Did you happen to play a Mithra in FFXII? The majority of them were males but some females did play. (:

When you forgive, you heal. When you let go, you grow.
Scholar
#171 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 5:22 AM
Nope @Duine, I've never played any FF games, because they aren't. That's one of MY pet peeves... Companies calling their shit names that it ain't! There's nothing Final about Final Fantasy! If the original Final Fantasy had really been *FINAL*, then we would not be talking about FF12 now, would we?
Mad Poster
#172 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 5:47 AM
My Sims are allowed to tell dirty jokes. And clean ones. And laugh - or not. I have always thought it tells you if a Sim has a sense of humor or not. And if it is not in the game coding, it is in my imagination

They are also allowed to have pillow fights in the living room and play kicky bag in the kitchen. Or in the bathroom. They can play with the bath and with the fridge. They can bust-a-move as much as they like, and, well, they can even jump rope if they have too. If necessary, I will send them outside to carry on jumping rope, but if there is enough room inside (and there is normally enough room inside when I build a house) - let them jump rope or whatever they want to do. With larger families, one or two Sims are normally busy doing their own thing.

I will stop them if I need to. Because I will find them very boring if they just sit on the sofa
Scholar
#173 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 6:02 AM
@Justpetro Often, I let my sims do most of those things, too. The fact that I made such mods, doesn't necessarily mean that I use them all, or that I am as restrictive in their use as I could be. That's the nice thing about mods being configurable: some people allow their sims more freedom than others

For example: Less Jump Rope allows the player to select whether or not girls do it more often than boys. Whether lazy adult males without any interest in fitness or sports will actually be as likely as active girl kids with these hobbies to autonomously jump rope, or not. They have different personalities, so some might do it more, while others should do it less. And I can still direct the ones that don't, if they need it for job advancement, for example.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#174 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 9:38 AM
I love it when my more eccentric adults and teens start jumping up and down on the sofa.

All Sims are beautiful -- even the ugly ones.
My Simblr ~~ My LJ
Sims' lives matter!
The Veronaville kids are alright.
Mad Poster
#175 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 9:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilingOil
@Justpetro Often, I let my sims do most of those things, too. The fact that I made such mods, doesn't necessarily mean that I use them all, or that I am as restrictive in their use as I could be. That's the nice thing about mods being configurable: some people allow their sims more freedom than others

For example: Less Jump Rope allows the player to select whether or not girls do it more often than boys. Whether lazy adult males without any interest in fitness or sports will actually be as likely as active girl kids with these hobbies to autonomously jump rope, or not. They have different personalities, so some might do it more, while others should do it less. And I can still direct the ones that don't, if they need it for job advancement, for example.


I do appreciate what you do, really! Your mod makes perfect sense. And I use a number of your mods myself too. As for the jump rope - it is the lazy ones, in my game (and opinion), who gets fat and needs to do it
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