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The ModFather
retired moderator
#26 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 1:19 AM
Beosboxboy, you may be right when you talk about a new architecture between Sims2 and Sims3, but there is another possible meaning of this failure: MaxoidTom talked about the body layers long ago, and said that they discontinued them because of the many problems they encountered.
Now all the old Maxoids have been moved to other projects or are anyway unavailable, and there's a bunch of new Maxoids that seem to have graduated yesterday.
Perhaps they are just too little experienced to realize *how big* were the problems connected with the layers; and thought that they could succeed where people more experienced then them failed.

Am I too caustic with the "new deal" that EA is running with the (deceased) Maxis?

I've finally started my Journal. Information only, no questions.

My latest activity: CEP 9.2.0! - AnyGameStarter 2.1.1 (UPD) - Scriptorium v.2.2f - Photo & Plaques hide with walls - Magazine Rack (UPD) - Animated Windows Hack (UPD) - Custom Instrument Hack (UPD) - Drivable Cars Without Nightlife (UPD) - Courtesy Lights (FIX) - Custom Fence-Arches - Painting-TV - Smarter Lights (UPD)


I *DON'T* accept requests, sorry.
Scholar
#27 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 8:29 AM
I did some experiments - just before I installed Pets, I had made a new dress using a user-created mesh. (first one in the pic) I thought this would be great for testing this problem, since it has an "alpha" group, and the whole issue seems to be with the layering of alpha's.

So, I used Pet's BodyShop to make a quick recolor (pic 2)

I then put both skins, and the mesh, into my "Base Game" folder, and started the Base Game.

The first one showed up fine, and looked fine in the game.

The second one didn't show up at all.

Then I used some trickery to get the BaseGame BodyShop to run. I won't explain how, since it was a bit complicated, and the other method I used on the final skin works too, and is easier to do.

Anyway, I made the third skin in the pic using the BaseGame BodyShop. It worked in the Base Game, of course, and also in my real game, with Pets installed..

Next, I did a swap in SimPE -

I extracted the Property Set file from the first skin, and saved it on my desktop.

Then I opened the second skin (the one made with Pet's BodyShop, which didn't show up in the BaseGame at all)

I selected it's Property Set, and replaced it with the one I had saved - that's all, just a simple "Replace", no renaming or other editing at all.

I expected it to crash the game, or simply not show up - but it now worked fine in both the Base Game, and in the full game with Pets installed.

This needs furthur experimentation, but it does seem to do the trick.

I can't post the files here, since the mesh is not mine - but maybe it will give you some ideas to try.

Although the pic was made in BodyShop, all three outfits work fine in both the BaseGame BodyShop and game, and in the Pets BodyShop and game, no layering issues in any of them.
Screenshots
The ModFather
retired moderator
#28 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 10:49 AM
Dr. Pixel (and anyone else): I'm creating a new version of the BaseGameStarter that is capable to start the BodyShop including all the EPs installed but Pets. Do you think that I should also include the ability to start the BodyShop from the base game only? Would it be useful? there would be differences between an "all EP excl. Pets" BS and a "base-game only" BS?

I've finally started my Journal. Information only, no questions.

My latest activity: CEP 9.2.0! - AnyGameStarter 2.1.1 (UPD) - Scriptorium v.2.2f - Photo & Plaques hide with walls - Magazine Rack (UPD) - Animated Windows Hack (UPD) - Custom Instrument Hack (UPD) - Drivable Cars Without Nightlife (UPD) - Courtesy Lights (FIX) - Custom Fence-Arches - Painting-TV - Smarter Lights (UPD)


I *DON'T* accept requests, sorry.
Scholar
#29 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 11:50 AM
Numenor, your idea of using all expansions before Pets would be best. The original clothing that I tested was made with the OFB version of BodyShop, and it works fine in Pets.

It also works fine in just the Base Game.

Maybe the other thing I did, which would amount to making the Property Set of the files into one that is the same as before Pets, could be built in to SimPE in a future release as a fix for those broken items that were made using the Pets BodyShop.
Lab Assistant
#30 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 2:14 PM
Damn. Sorry to bust in the conversation like this, but I too fell victim to this Pre-Pets / Post-Pets recoloring. I had made a NFL jersey set (out of the YA jersey outfit) with the Glamour Life version of Bodyshop and it went over well. However after installing the vaunted Pets expansion I went on and blindly made two other jersey sets thinking they'd be fine. When I got those sets approved I got a note from the staff here that there was this thread in regards to post-Pets recolours.

Thank goodness all of you are so on point. I just feel awful that I uploaded that content without knowing all of this first. It sucks. I don't have a problem reposting with the "Pets Expansion Required" disclaimer, but geez... I'd like the clothing to work on all the Eps, ya know?

Oh well, I have a spare HD around here somewhere. Maybe I'll re-install my game there and just not put on the Pets expansion ,redo my jersey set packs, and post them so they work with all EPs.

Thanks again for the wealth of information guys and gals.
Scholar
#31 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 2:47 PM
Syn, this is certainly not your fault so don't feel badly about it.

Since you did make some working outfits using the same mesh before you had Pets installed, I think you could easily fix your new ones by using the same method I described above, that is replacing the Property sets with the one from your pre-pets outfits.

Or else wait for Numenor's BodyShop fix.

Either way you could still keep Pets.

=====================================

I also forgot to mention that when I did the skin using the BaseGame BodyShop (which I did by manually doing what Numenor's BaseGame Starter does) it did behave exactly as I had expected - that is, it showed only the Maxis meshes and clothing from the original game, plus only the user-made clothing and meshes that I had put into my BaseGame folders. It also had no "Young Adult" section. And it created the Property Set file just as the original BodyShop did (there are some parameters in that file that were only added in the expansions). To sum up, it was definately using the original BodyShop.
Scholar
#32 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 3:05 PM
So it could be - not my hair mesh - but actually bodyshop PESTSSSS version that is mucking up the animations I apply?

I suppose the whole mesh package is mucked up then, because I had someone without PESTSSS installed replace my gmdc in my meshfile, and the same thing happened

Please visit WickedNoukFamily Forum for my creations.
Can't take requests, I'm completely swamped with unfinished projects! :O
Lab Assistant
#33 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 3:19 PM
Just a very wild guess - do you think it's possible that in stead/in addition of pets' fur layering some of these newly discovered glitches might have something to do with the upcoming In Season EP and the possible implementation of "outerwear layers" on top of current clothing?..

Me Englisch nicht verstehen. Let's speak dance!
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Lab Assistant
#34 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 4:01 PM
Thanks. I'll give that a whirl Dr. Pixel and let you know how it turns out.
Instructor
#35 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 4:04 PM
I just spent a few hours experimenting with Dr Pixel's trick (I don't have Pets installed) and trying to push my manual fix attempts further, and I'm more confused than ever.
I had four t-shirt recolours for one of my meshes, made by Innocent with Pets installed, all of them showing both under hair and in the tops as full body nudes. I first used Dr Pixel's fix on two of them and it worked fine, then I deleted and replaced the fixed files with the buggy ones and attempted different combination of edits apart from deleting the "parts" and the "priority" line and adding the correct "outfit" line - with or without a version number, sorted lines or not and such.
Though I deleted the thumbnails and the groups.cache between attempts and the cigen.package the first time, the only files working right were those that I formerly fixed by replacing the property set, then deleted and replaced with the original ones before doing manual edits, this no matter which settings I used... O_o

In fact I was hoping to find a fix for files that don't have any recolour made without Pets; but then I tried using the property set from a random old base top of mine and it works as well (all files are based on the amwhitetanktop though) - so it seems that you don't need a former recolour of the same mesh after all. Now I'm not sure how it would go with stuff entirely based on Pets clothing...

Marvine and Beosboxboy at InSIMenator.net and Gay Sims Club 2
Instructor
DELETED POST
4th Nov 2006 at 4:13 PM
This message has been deleted by marvine. Reason: double post
Instructor
#36 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 4:28 PM
Numenor: I do not believe that you are being to harsh. I candidly
believe that Electronic Arts has never understood the general desire of
the community for custom content or, as a matter of fact, they have simply
never understood the phenomenon of the Sims community at all. The Sims
Community is a unique phenomenon in the gaming world; I have every confidence
they think we are all addle-pated and easily parted from our money.

I sincerely believe that Electronic Arts regards the custom content creating
community as competition. Microsoft has a better chance of having a clearer
idea of what we want: we want a platform in which to do things. Electronic Arts
on the other hand seems to think that we want them to sell us buggy, unstable,
every shifting code... albeit, one could argue that Microsoft does the same
thing, my experience of the two does not support such claims.

Dr Pixel: Thank you for experimenting with the Body Shop of the base
game. I suspected that this would indeed provide a solution, but as I mentioned
I don't have all the various EPs and SPs (I have avoided Holiday Stuff, Family
Fun Stuff & Pets EP as if they were fire, pestilence, and flood) so this was not
something I could properly test.

I suspected that replacing the property set would also work, but I didn't think
it was a viable option to suggest this as a panacea since so many people seem to
have techno-phobia about SimPE. I agree that this is a good idea, but I would
limit its suggested use to persons that are more technically minded or familiar
with using SimPE.

Nouk: I have every confidence it is not your mesh. A mesh is a mesh is a
mesh. The tools we use determine its behaviour and properties, the recolours
however... that's another matter. The Pets EP version of Body Shop is a proper
menace to the normal operation of the custom content community; quod erat
demonstrandum
. It would be a logical thing to suspect the mesh as well as
the recolours, but my personal experience indicates that if you know what you
are doing in the meshing, then it is usually the software using the mesh rather
than the mesh that is the problem.

Bruno: I think that you may be spot on in your thinking. If I may expand
on this, Electronic Arts obviously felt the need to "re-invent the wheel" (to
use the cliché) for a number of what I am sure they believe to be very valid
reasons.

As Numenor reminded me above, EA decided to scrap an earlier mode of more
complicated layering in favour of a simpler model for a number of very valid
reasons, not the least of which is that they could never get it to work
properly. I also agree with his assessment that the new "young turks" in the
development unit were overly optimistic in revivifying this buggy, unstable, and
unreliable layering model.

I also have no reason to disbelieve that EA plans to continue flogging this dead
horse. I would, in all, have preferred that they not release the Pets EP at
all... but that seems to be a minority opinion.

I have only one God, Choice. If you remove the right to choose from any equation, how have you improved the world?
The ModFather
retired moderator
#37 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 5:48 PM
Seasons? Well, the Seasns EP is announced to have weather casualties, i.e. another malfunctioning project scrapped by the former Maxis team...

I've run some tests myself, following the info given by Beosboxboy earlier, on this thread.

I've created a recolour of a Maxis clothing and a Maxis hairstyle, both in the PETS BodyShop and in a "legacy" pre-Pets BodyShop, and I've compared the Binary Index and the Property Sets of the two pair of packages.

Then, in the two PETS packages, I've manually edited with SimPE these values (I took the values from the pre-pets packages):
  • Property sets: changed the Version
  • Property sets: added the missing Outfit line
  • Binary Index: fixed the value for sortindex

Both the clothing and the hairstyle now show up correctly in the Legacy BodyShop and in any pre-Pets CAS; no more "nude skin" thumbnail, no more graphical glitches while displaying the clothings, no more invisible hair on the sim's head.
Of course, I've run only these two tests, and therefore I can't say whether these good results may apply to any clothing or hair.

But I continuosly think to that sortindex value: so far it has always been a binary "flag" field, where each bit had its own meaning. In my pre-pets clothing recolour, the sortindex was 0x000008.
But what on earth might mean a sortindex of 0x0002291? No wonder that the PETS clothing recolour appeared in my legacy BodyShop among the Maxis hairstyles, the complete outfits, the tops and the bottoms (and who knows where else...).
Fixing the "sortindex" and the "outfit" fixed everything...

I've finally started my Journal. Information only, no questions.

My latest activity: CEP 9.2.0! - AnyGameStarter 2.1.1 (UPD) - Scriptorium v.2.2f - Photo & Plaques hide with walls - Magazine Rack (UPD) - Animated Windows Hack (UPD) - Custom Instrument Hack (UPD) - Drivable Cars Without Nightlife (UPD) - Courtesy Lights (FIX) - Custom Fence-Arches - Painting-TV - Smarter Lights (UPD)


I *DON'T* accept requests, sorry.
The ModFather
retired moderator
#38 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 7:32 PM
Sorry for the double post, but the new BaseGameStarter, with the Legacy BodyShop is online.
Anyone interested in using/testing it, can download it HERE.

Suggestions for further improvements and/or bug reports are welcome.

I've finally started my Journal. Information only, no questions.

My latest activity: CEP 9.2.0! - AnyGameStarter 2.1.1 (UPD) - Scriptorium v.2.2f - Photo & Plaques hide with walls - Magazine Rack (UPD) - Animated Windows Hack (UPD) - Custom Instrument Hack (UPD) - Drivable Cars Without Nightlife (UPD) - Courtesy Lights (FIX) - Custom Fence-Arches - Painting-TV - Smarter Lights (UPD)


I *DON'T* accept requests, sorry.
Instructor
#39 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 8:06 PM Last edited by beosboxboy : 4th Nov 2006 at 8:20 PM. Reason: gah spelling without coffee is not easy for a non-English speaker
Numenor - the best of my understanding the sortindex= tag carries
a hexadecimal value that determines the position in the thumbnail bin. The
earliest version of Body Shop gave everything a value of 0x00000000, it was one
of the later EPs that changed the enumeration in this tag. The sortorder seems
to work this way: the higher the value, the further it is from the Maxis default
content. I believe that a review of the Binary Index data of your custom
content will reveal a pattern along these lines.

The sortindex= value is perhaps generated by Body Shop based on what EP
is installed, how many times Body Shop has been run, etc. It has been a well
understood feature of Body Shop that it "touches" all the files in the Projects
directory, and it has been my suspicion that the sortindex is changed in all the
files there during the shut down so that during the next run of Body Shop the
generated files will be of "unique" enumeration. Perhaps "unique" is not the
right word, but may have relevance to the content in the Downloads folder etc,
so "unique" for the individual system.

I wish to personally thank you for taking the time to listen to my thoughts and
engage in this discussion; and chiefly thank you for undertaking the much needed
work of finding a universally usable solution to the issue.

Your insight to adding the outfit= tag to items has shown success on both
Marvine's and my pre-Pets games. So far this seems to be the only needed
addition to the buggy items. Marvine had it right at the very first then, we
just did not think to add the tag, she only altered a tag. So adding the
outfit= tag is the right way to go for fixing existing misbehaving content as
far as we can determine.

But, as you remarked, this requires more experimentation by others to be proven
to be the best solution for already made content.

I have only one God, Choice. If you remove the right to choose from any equation, how have you improved the world?
Instructor
#40 Old 4th Nov 2006 at 11:01 PM
After some more testing, I can confirm that just adding the outfit line is enough to fix the files - and of course deleting the thumbnails before reloading the game so the changes can properly apply to the files already installed. I didn't test this with hair though, and it would require to be tested also with Pets installed, so if anybody is willing to give it a try...
Oh, and did anybody else notice that Pets-made content displays near the end of the bin? This may be specific to the stuff I downloaded though it's from different creators, anyway it's not too convenient when you have to delete the thumbnails between tests...

Marvine and Beosboxboy at InSIMenator.net and Gay Sims Club 2
Lab Assistant
#41 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 12:22 AM
Thanks for informing us about what's really going on. I thought I was going nuts when my necklaces stopped working, when my sim had a piece of furniture stuck inside them on a community lot, and all sorts of other fun things like jump bugs even with hacks disabled.

Does this issue also pertain to lots? For instance, a lot packaged with pets (But with no pets content or build problems) and then used by users without pets?

I recently made a victorian for a friend of mine, who does not have pets, but I figured it would work because I didn't include pet content, and never had problems with lots like that before. But it shows up as costing negative dollars to purchase, and crashes on her (Where as my sister used the same house, but didnt have FFS and it told her straight out "This lot has things from an expansion you dont have").

As far as body shop - I tried to load it last night and received a crash error right away, asking me to send the information off to internet land and see if they can fix it. So I tried the pets one (Because I realized that the different expansions must have different ones, even though I had been using the same shortcut for every other expansion), hoping that I would be able to make custom pet coats with it, and I was rather disappointed to see that body shop for pets doesn't even let someone make a pet.

I was also disappointed that they were forcing me to use a version that would require an "adjustment" for various issues...such as the lighting.

The only good thing about pets so far seems to be the diagonal roofing, and I rarely have a use for that... I was really hoping that for the money we would get a few more objects, and more things like TS1 pets had, at the very least!

But, is it safe to uninstall the pets EP? It says the game saves are all changed, so will this wipe houses I haven't touched since pets? I mean, Pet wise, big woop, my dog had puppies and I somehow unlocked a fur collar (like one would expect from a console version from the game)...but it's no big loss and just plain not fun.

Thanks for the info again, guys. It's good for creators (big, small, and casual) to know this sort of thing. =)
Be like the 22nd elephant with heated value in space- Bark!
retired moderator
#42 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 1:40 AM
The negative lot price is something I've seen a few times on here- it doesn't seem to be passable like the problem with the Uni lots (costing 1 million). For the savegames- yes, the format is changed for each EP, so most likely you will find that without Pets your game will just not 'read' your neighbourhoods. When my daughter and I experimented we found that if I put neighbourhoods from her EP games into my non-EP game, then no neighbourhoods would show up at all. We haven't experimented for Pets but I'd guess it is the same. Make sure you do back up your files before uninstalling though- as the installer will remove your entire Sims 2 folder from your Documents folder.

I will choose a path that's clear- I will choose free will
-RUSH- -RADIO- -RADIO- -ARCHIVES-
Simpeople and Me Archive- -11Dots Archive- My Sims World Archive
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#43 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 3:07 AM
I tried Dr. Pixels method and I worked perfectly. I loaded the game ,and there the outfit that was made with pets was. Thank you, Dr. Pixel! And thank you everyone else for you efforts to find, figure out, and fix what the problem was/is.
Instructor
#44 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 10:15 AM Last edited by beosboxboy : 5th Nov 2006 at 1:33 PM.
Originally posted by Marvine on InSIMenator - posted here with additions by me

Other people and myself have spent the last two days trying to figure out a fix for the thumbnails issue with Pets made clothing for people not having the EP installed.

After fruitless attempts on my own and testing different workable but not so easy fixes by other people, it finally clicked in when sharing thoughts with Yakov (beosboxboy) and I found a quick a easy method, even if you don't have much experience of SimPE:

- Open your recolour in SimPE - select the property set line in the top right panel



- select the "parts = ........" line in the bottom left panel



- click "add" in the bottom right panel, this will duplicate the line to the bottom of the list



- this last line being selected



- type "outfit" instead of "parts" in the right panel - no other edit needed, the number is the right one



- click "commit" and save.



You'll have to delete your thumbnails before starting the game so the changes can properly apply to the items that were already installed.



Note: The thumbnails are the files located in one of the following directories
C:\Documents and Settings\YourWindowsScreenNameHere\My Documents\EA Games\The Sims 2\Thumbnails - *Windows 2000 & Windows XP

or

C:\My Documents\EA Games\The Sims 2\Thumbnails - *Windows 98 & Windows ME

or

Home/EA Games/The Sims 2/Thumbnails - MacOS X

* or what ever hard drive is your main Windows drive

This fixed all the files I tested, tops and full body outfits by Innocent, JayAngel, Engelchen and Cocosims (yay!!)

Now I didn't get to test this with the EP, there shouldn't be any issue but better safe than sorry... So it would be great if anybody with the EP installed gave it a try

EDIT: This fix has been shown to work with clothing, hair, and skin tones in installs of The Sims 2 with Nightlife EP, Open for Business EP, and Glamour Life Stuff installed.

NOTA BENE: A skintone has 59 or 60 Property Sets - these must all be changed; a hair recolour package has 6 or 7 Property Sets - these must all be changed. I have not tried working with accessories or make-up yet, but I suspect the same proceedure will be required.

EDIT: doing the above process with misbehaving genetic eye colours only in the Texture Overlay XML instead of the Property Set corrected missing/misbehaving eye colours.

This fix is useful for already made content, but Numenor added a "Legacy Bodyshop" option to his BaseGameStarter here , that allows to use the base game Bodyshop to create fully compatible clothing no matter which EPs are installed.

I have only one God, Choice. If you remove the right to choose from any equation, how have you improved the world?
The ModFather
retired moderator
#45 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 10:41 AM Last edited by Numenor : 5th Nov 2006 at 10:51 AM.
Marvine - If Beosboxboy is right, and the sortindex determines the position of the thumbnail within the catalog, this might explain why pets-created stuff are at the end of the catalog: from what I can see, the values choosen by Pets for the sortindex are way higher that the older BodyShops.

Zelia - When you package a lot, the game stores in it the EP requirements, and includes all the EPs that you have installed, unregarding the content of the house. this is because - except for UNI - every EP changes the internal format of the lots, and therefore you can't install the lots created with Pets in a non-Pets game.
The Maxis installer will complain about needed EP missing, and if you use the CleanInstaller the non-Pets game will crash.
The only reliable way to create backwards-compatible lots is using the BaseGameStarter: create a test game that includes the EP strictly needed (e.g. if you want to use the UNI fountains, select a game that includes UNI).


Beosboxboy - Thanks for the useful and well-explained tutorial: I will link it in my posts related to this problem.

I've finally started my Journal. Information only, no questions.

My latest activity: CEP 9.2.0! - AnyGameStarter 2.1.1 (UPD) - Scriptorium v.2.2f - Photo & Plaques hide with walls - Magazine Rack (UPD) - Animated Windows Hack (UPD) - Custom Instrument Hack (UPD) - Drivable Cars Without Nightlife (UPD) - Courtesy Lights (FIX) - Custom Fence-Arches - Painting-TV - Smarter Lights (UPD)


I *DON'T* accept requests, sorry.
Field Researcher
#46 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beosboxboy
I have not tried working with accessories or make-up yet, but I suspect the same proceedure will be required.


Make-up don't have these problems.
I made some new make-up (for testing) with Pets, and I tried them in the others game ( without pets): from TS2 to GLS and they work fine and show up as usally.

If you like my creations, you may consider to make a little donation to support my site and my modding activity.
MaryLou's Sims 2 World - MaryLou Sims 2 Forum (Italiano)
Instructor
#47 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 11:33 AM
that is good news MaryLou, thank you for that bit of gladsome news :D

I have only one God, Choice. If you remove the right to choose from any equation, how have you improved the world?
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#48 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 12:08 PM
Thanks for the detailed explanation. :D
Field Researcher
#49 Old 5th Nov 2006 at 3:11 PM
These problems there are partially when you creat a COMPLETE SIM too.

When you create a sim with Bodyshop and then you export him to share, in the Sims2Pack created by Bodyshop there are all the files the sim needs to work, this files are extract from BS so more of them have the new format code too.

If you like my creations, you may consider to make a little donation to support my site and my modding activity.
MaryLou's Sims 2 World - MaryLou Sims 2 Forum (Italiano)
Instructor
#50 Old 6th Nov 2006 at 4:41 AM
Thank you for reminding us of that aspect MaryLou - perhaps then it would be best to only pack sims with the "legacy" Body Shop; or to use the method of extracting the files and ZIP-ing or RAR-ing them into a single archive after making certain to correct the files. This latter method is used by SynapticSim as a rule and would be a means for those creators now wishing to use the "legacy" Body Shop.

I have only one God, Choice. If you remove the right to choose from any equation, how have you improved the world?
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