First let me say that I read all of the books, it was intolerable after the first chapter but I have to finish what I start, even if it kills me! Also, I don't want to offend anyone, so this is just my opinon. This is very, very long.

Dictionary:
Mary Sue:
A female fiction character who is so perfect as to be annoying. The male equivlalent is the Marty-Stu. Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe. There are several main types of Mary Sue:

Victim!SuesBELLA) The Victim!Sue is your whiny, wimpy, pathetic female character who can't seem to do much of anything except cry and get herself into trouble that the romantic interest of the fic has to rescue her from.

Warrior!Sues: The Warrior!Sue is usually loud, obnoxious and (of course) an amazing warrior. She'll usually have some tragic past that led her to become a warrior, and she'll upstage all of the Canonical characters with her mad Sueish powerz.

Mage!Sue: Similar to the Warrior!Sue, the Mage!Sue has amazing stregnth in magic, or has a magical power that nobody else has. She'll usually wind up upstaging all of the magical characters of the series.

Punk!Sue: Also called Noncomformist!Sue or Goth!Sue, the Punk!Sue is usually written by female beginners in the 11-15 age group. The Punk!Sue is loud, obnoxious, annoying and generally the type of person who you'd want to send off to boot camp for six months. The Punk!Sue almost always has angst coming out of her ears and isn't really a bad person, she's just oh!-so-angry at whatever tragic past the author has chosen to give her. The Punk!Sue is based on what the 11-15 year old author thinks is "cool" and wishes she could be. This includes Evil!Sues.

Misfit!Sue: This includes all Sues who are supposedly geeks, nerds, misfits, etc. Usually, the Misfit!Sue doesn't start out as inhumanly beautiful, but winds up getting a makeover and finding out she had the potential to be a guy-magnet (or girl-magnet, depending on the genre) all along. Also includes the "My parents want me to do this but I want to do that and it's not fair!!one!" type of Sue. Usually, this Sue is very bookish and smart, but will find some sort of physical talent nobody expected and become a star as a result.

Another thing to note is that a Sue will usually have a completely off-the-wall name, like "Viquetoria". The more wierd and pretentious the name of the character, the more likely it is that she's a Sue.

Marty Stu/ Gary Stu:The male counter part of what I wrote above


Discuss.

The Evidence:

Miss Meyer has admitted that she "fell in love" with the character of Edward (GARY STU) when she wrote him. Many writers discuss their characters like this, but few single out their protagonist's love interest for the honor.

Bella(MARY SUE) has a very magical, Mary-Sue-like name. "Bella Swan." She's allegedly perfectly ordinary in every way, to the point of absolute tedium, but somehow when she moves to a new area, instead of becoming a true outcast, she is instead fawned over by every guy in the school. And she can't be bothered with it. "Ho, hum, yeah, you can have my leftovers. How droll."

Bella has precisely one flaw: she's clumsy. Wow. That's absolutely *classic*. Her only character flaw is that she's endearingly oaf-like? That's it? And it makes her even more *adorable*?

So, this perfecly ordinary girl from an only moderately poor home life who is just bored with her social life captures the attention of the world's most perfect guy. He's so perfect that he SPARKLES. Literally. He sparkles. Most vampires blow up, or burn or turn to bats when the enter sunlight, who the HELL would think to make them sparkle? Maybe in the moon, MAYBE, but in the sun? Thats like making a vampire who doesn't drink blood! Oh, well actually...Anywyas, he is so F*ing classic. He's strong, and handsome, and brooding, and intelligent, and INTERESTING because he's secretly a sexy vampire with a really cool vampire family. He's so in love with Bella for no good reason that they can't sleep together lest he lose control of himself. He's "mysteriously drawn" to her. And he wants to protect her. And take her away from all this. And she gets swept into a magical world that she never could have ever imagined.

The only way this chick could be a bigger Mary Sue is if she had violet eyes and the power to talk to animals.

This isn't the plot of a best-selling novel. This is the kind of story that middle-school girls tell themselves when they fantasize. The kind of shit you wrote in your diary at age 13 about the amazing adventures that you have in your head. Except it's not you, it's sort of a better you, more interesting, more perfect, more beautiful, more popular. "And everyone loves me even this really mysterious secret beautiful VAMPIRE who can't resist me!"

This has been a ridiculous rant, but I can't believe this piece of adolescent tripe has made it into print, much less grown to its current frenzied height of popularity. It is vile. You know a book should have been left in the slush pile when its Fanfic is indistinguishable from its canon.


Bites and Kisses
(A completly non-sparkly) Vampire

I know it's a bit... twee but I like it, and I hate Bella's character... YES!! I don't identify with her in any moment, she's so ARGHHH!!! ;P
I thought you maybe won't like them...
This summer I'm going to read Ann Rice's "Interview with the vampire", do you know if it's good??

I LOVED all of the vampire chronicles, yes, you must read them, they are WONDERFUL!!! I also suggest that you follow up (after Interview) with Lestat, it is my favorite book.

Ok!!!

Here's an excellent resource - the Mary Sue Litmus test. I've already checked a couple of my characters out with it, and one of them needs a bit of work, but some of the others are pretty much non-Sues (or Stus).

Very helpful resource for writers! Stephenie Meyer should take a look at it

Thank you for that, is sounds really interesting and I will look into it.

EDIT: I went over it with Bella and she scored a 52. If anyone elses does it, let me know what you get. By the way, 52 means that she is a Mary Sue and the she should be killed dead.

I've done it and Bella gets a 93!!!! XD

I wonder what I did wrong, I'll have to try it again, but 93? Come on SMeyers, you need to consult that website a bit more often!

I hate Twilight! I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it! And I hate the fact that even though you either love/hate it you still read it! Grr if only we didn't, there wouldn't be such a huge hype about it.

And not only are the characters Mary and Marty Sue's, but also the writer! 'Stephenie'? what the hell? It doesn't sound more exotic you idiot, it's still Stephanie! Why did you/your parents bother? grr.

please, I fully agree with Stephen King, she didn't write a book, she wrote a fanfic story, a bad one too. If I wanted to read a cool vampire story I'd go to fanfiction.com or something demmit! What was the point of publishing it? It might as well have had a link on the back to the fanfic forum she started out in or something. if I wanted a fanfic I'd go to jph!p demmit, they may be high schoolers and even they can write better than her. I read stories there that have brought me to tears, whereas no matter what happens to Bella and Edward I'm more likely to laugh in their faces than to feel sorry for those huge dousches.

And what the hell is up with the movie? He was NOT shiny! I saw NO diamonds on his skin. The most that happened was he turned a little yellow in the sun but that's all. And which idiot decided to bring this shit as book to film? I want to shoot them. I can't wait for everyone to wake up and smell the shitness of the book and eventually forget it. And I am sick of people bunching it with Harry Potter or Lemoni Snicket. They are nothing alike. The writers of those books are actually able to hold our attention for more than a few pages whereas the writer of this book made me fall asleep one chapter in the book. I seriously fall asleep everytime I try reading it. I am not kidding, I pick up the book and a few pages in I fall asleep. It is that bad. I got the second and third book from my (clueless) brother (who obviously hadn't heard me bitch and moan about HATING the book) on my birthday in February and so far I've only managed to get about halfway through the third book. In three months = 1 1/2 books. I read one Harry Potter book (one of the big ones) in one month. I can read a Lemoni Snicket book in a week or two. Know why it takes so long to read this one? cause it bores me to tears! I can't continuously read it or else I'd explode of boredom!

Ill stop now before I get really nasty X_X

I agree, and please get nasty.

I woold never, ever spend a cent on her or the shit she makes, so I borrowed the books from an obviously dimwitted friends, she has made hese boks her bible and her new nickname is Bella, I kid you not. I also will not see the movie until it if free in the On Demand section of Comcast, which shouldn't take long. I even heard from some of the obsessors that the movie sucked, so we will see.

Thank you and welcome to my grou and for providing a wonderful addition to my anti-twilight team.

You know what else, I haven't seen any counte arguements, which I figured there would be millions of flames, but I guess there aren't any arguments other than OMG!!!11 Edward is SOO HoT!!!111!! I lOvE hIm AnD BeLlA tothr. OMG!!!111!!!1!!!!

Vampy

I joined this group simply because of this thread.
I despise Twilight.
I could write pages and pages of reasons why I hate it.
Here is why BUFFY is better than TWILIGHT:
1. Actual personalities and non-obnoxious character traits. Buffy is witty and spunky; Bella is bland and codependant. Angel helps out Buffy only when necessary; Edward looms over Bella creepily.
2. Buffy can take care of herself for the most part and when Angel does help her, they both fight demons/vampires. Bella is lame and can't do anything but annoyingly beg to be a vampire.
3. Vampires in the Buffy world actually get injured and feel pain and presumably sleep. Vampires in the Twilight world are statues and everything about them is awesome except the feeding on people thing (see book 4). Um, way to create NO CONFLICT.
4. Buffy combines kitsch, myth, comedy, and drama all into one successful package. Twilight combines an interesting idea with boring characters, Tolkeinesque tangents, and superfulous repetition to create an unsatisfying package.
5. I'm too tired to list more ways. But seriously, just watch the "Angel" episode. Angel stays at Buffy's overnight without creepily watching her sleep the whole time like a creepy stalker face. Also, he reveals the truth without being lame and making her guess.
^Found that off the internet.

Although Bella wasn't meant to be a role model, she is now. She's unambitious, useless, and wishes nothing more than to be with Edward--who's a vegetarian vampire *snorts*. I know Edward as Tinkerbell in disguise. I hate the hype around this stupid fad.
Vampires aren't portrayed correctly...they just got some guy who squints all the time and made him pale--hey presto! Vampireness a go!

Ughh.
OMG!!!11 Edward is SOO HoT!!!111!! I lOvE hIm AnD BeLlA tothr. OMG!!!111!!!1!!!!
Too true. It pisses me off so bad!

Awesomesest site evarr.
http://www.twilightsucks.com/

I LOVE THAT SITE!!! I can't believe I never found it, I have been looking for a place to start lurking where SPARKLES ARE NOT COMPERABLE TO BURSTING INTO FLAMES!!!! Yes, I have to agree, although I have never seen Angel Buffy episode. I actually have never seen Buffy, I guess I better get watching. I am more into Edward (YUCK) meets Lestat... I wonder if he would eat him head first, burn him, or just that thing he does...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olb2...feature=related

You basically have to look at it like the Harry Potter of the vampire genre. Insufferable to all who are actually true "fans" of the subject (witchcraft or vampires), but fascinating to anyone who thinks that you must have a wand to perform witchcraft and vampires can walk around in the freaking sun.

That is a great point, but I actully used to like Harry Potter when I was a kid.

I enjoy the movies, because I have a strange, twisted love affair with Disney, and the special effects are awesome. Not too mention Robert Pattinson, I really wish he played a different character... one that didn't die. The plot? Take it or leave it.

The thing with Harry Potter is even though J.K. Rowlings took a lot of liberties with witchcraft, she did it well. The writing is still decent... not exceptional... but her strength is in her plot and characterization.

I haven't read Twilight but the stuff I've heard already I grew bored with. I've been meaning to make a compilation of youtube clips of why every other movie Vampire is better than Twilight.

I had to approach the Twilight movie as NOT a vampire movie. I went there thinking that this is a romance movie and has nothing to do with vampires. Now, with that in mind, I quite enjoyed it. I was already biased because of Pattinson, and eventhough I can't freaking stand Kristen Stewart, I still managed to like the movie.

I'm interested enough to read the Twilight books just once, but from the sounds of it, I don't think I'm going to like them. The one thing that annoys me is how stupid some of the fans can be. I'm a geek of various geek things, but come on! I don't claim to love one guy in the movie/book and forget that HE'S FAKE!!

I actually read on fml.com that a guy got dumped 'cause his girlfriend wanted him to be more like "her Edward". Now, that may be true or not, but I'm sure some relationship somewhere has died because of Edward.

I agree.

I think Twilight is okay, i guess, but all these freaking obsessed people! They didn't like him THAT much until they saw that Robert Pattinson was going to be Edward in the movie, and hes ugllly *Shudder* And the movie was the biggest rip off in rip off history.

i did not really like bella, only becuase she was with edward cullen/ robert pattinson. but see i cant really do nothing about it... i am obsessed with twilight... like i always like Robert pattinson/ edward cullen like 3 years before twilight came out. i like him in Harry Potter, and Vinty fair etc..

~ Pheonix Pixie ~

Twilight vampires are miserable excuses that Stephenie Meyer pulled out her ass to make her vampires unique. Just pure torture in every sparkle filled page.

The worst part of Twilight is not the plot. Oh, no. The sparkly pixie who stalkes and abuses a girl, who becomes suicidal for him and obsesses, and pedophilia is not what's worst about this book.
What's worse is the quality (Or, rather, lack of) of the writing. It's full of purple prose, cliches and other, unmentionable things.
And, most importantly...
VAMPIRES. DO. NOT. FREAKING. SPARKLE!!!!!

I can think of another reason why Buffy is better. Because Spike is in Buffy and James Marsters is hot and has a cute accent.

Ohhh Spikey. He was the greatest vamp of them all. He saved the world! And he didn't need to sparkle to be pretty ^_^