I've re-read my own post, just to be sure that my opinion was correctly written, and I couldn't find anything like that...
I tried to keep my post as short as possible, because I wanted everyone to read it entirely, but it seems that you didn't pay the due attention.

When I said that:

this means that not all the paysites have the same quantity of pay content (10% or 100%), but of course both types of paysites differ from the only true type of free site (pay content = ZERO). In other words, MTS2 is a real 100% free site, unlike your site, TSR and many other sites that *do* have a X% of pay content.


Another hint of the insufficient attention you have put in reading my post: I say

You reply:

You can't be neutral: you already have stated the opposite than I did.
You told that Delphy is after earning money and that donations are remuneration, and I have completely and strongly disagreed with both statements.


Sure, paysites and free sites can co-exist pacifically, but we can't deny the fact that there is a form of competition (not rivalry: just competition) because both types of site want to gain members: free sites do that to earn popularity, paysites do that to earn money. Each site is perfectly legitimate to "advertise" its own features, so to appeal the maximum number of members.
The main difference is that MTS2 can advertise a very good quality level and that users don't have to pay anything for it; paysites, at most, can advertise only the good quality level of their downlods. Now, every "market" has the same rules: the higher the price for an object, the less appealing that object is: it's not my fault if automatically paysites require a harder effort to gain members, and hiding or denying the difference between MTS2 and any paysites doesn't remove this market rule.

This competition between sites doesn't exclude the option to point out the weaknesses of the competitors; but again, under this point of view, MTS2 has more arrows in its bow: we can dislike sites or creators that use our free tools and knowledge to create pay content (and in some cases, omit the due credits); but on the contrary we can't be criticized for anything like that. Delphy mentioned Pandora, earlier: well, that is a good example. Pandora can't frankly criticize us for anything, except the fact that we exist, which leads the site owners to ostracize us in any way, carefully avoiding to mention us (even when a mention is due, e.g. for the CEP: at the beginning, they mentioned the CEP without providing a link to MTS2; now they publish CEP recolours without even mentioning the CEP, and even deleting the copyright references from their CEP-enabled clones!).

Without delving into the dark side of the paysites panorama, let's take another example: TSR.
When the CEP3 was released, along with the prohibition to repost the CEP on any other site than MTS2, TSR fiery battled to avoid linking to MTS2; but in the end they couldn't help but putting the required link. Now the situation is very different: there is a greater spirit of collaboration, a lot of formerly pay content is now given for free (if my battle for the CEP has contributed in any way, than I'm glad for this), MTS2 can be named on the TSR forum...
But of course TSR still is a paysite, and I guess it will always have its problems in keeping up the competition with free sites.

First off, I want to apologize to Numenor as I realize now that I did read his post wrong. One of the hazards of having two small children running around me laughing and yelling while I read, I guess...LOL

As well, Numenor did also mis-understand what I was saying about being neutral. I was stating that it doesn't matter to me either way, how Delphy runs, or funds his site. It has no effect on me what-so-ever...


To clear the air about our small pay section...We tried Donations, Delphy. For quite a while. But PayPal kept closing our accounts as we are an 'Adult' site. We hung in there for a while and paid out of pocket to keep it going. We grew fast, and continue to grow steadily, especially our member base, and it became more than we could afford. We actually checked int othe advertisement opportunities, but it seemed that most required an initial payment to them before we could reap any benefit of our own. We polled our members, and it was decided to make a small part of the site 'pay' in order to cover the costs associated with the continuation of MMNT. Many times we have been asked why we don't charge a lot more than we do, and it comes down to we aren't after money here.

The other side of the issue is that we are an adult site, and we need to make sure, as best we can, that our Adult files are not accessible by minors. And using the pay service we use, that is as close to completely assurable as it can be at this time.

And their is the time constraints. We both work full time and still have to have time for our children, upkeep in and around the house/yard, as well as for friends and family. We barely have time as it is for the site, but we want to keep it rolling and growing. We have many close on-line friends, and make more all the time. We do not have time to maintain anymore on the site at this time, than is already there.

Now, that being said, I am willing to talk about funding options with you, and maybe we can figure something out that might work best for our specific applications.

MIKEY!!!

Great explanation, Numenor. BUT! (always a "BUT!". I never denied nor indicated a wish to disguise the differences between the two. I readily admit there are, and always will be differences. I did however, express that our individual differences make us stronger as a whole, and wondered why we could not do this in the SIMs community, as we try to do in Society.






Point of view. Exactly. YOUR point of view. And you are definitely entitled to it, as well as deserving of the accolades for all that you have accomplished. But you have to admit that providing the tools and knowledge for free initially, without condition nor expected recompense, and then later publicly announcing your disdain for the people using them for their own gain, no matter how limited the gain is, is a tad arrogant and at least somewhat motivated by id and the need to empower ego. And if unable to admit to that, you have to, even if in hindsight, you can see where folks might get the impression that that was what it was about. And then we begin to see why this issue usually turns into a free for all between the two so-called sides. LOL






Let's not speak of Pandora. The name leaves a sour taste in my mouth just saying it now. We have had our own issues with them as well, and I would just rather not talk about those folks.


Before I hit 'submit', I must recount something I said in a previous post...I was in error. We did actually remit a percentage of the subscriptions earned to one animator, at his insistance and our initial naiveness about the whole 'pay' thing. But the experience also reinforced in us that we did not want to use the sight as an 'earning tool', as once we found out what the pompus ass was really like and about, we tossed him out and decided to never pay someone again. Luckily we have had great contributors to add to our content and base objects/files, and thusly have not had to raise our sub fees any higher due to quantity of downloaders subbing enabling us to cover the costs sufficiently.

MIKEY!!!

Thanks for the explanations Mikey. I have to agree that being an adult site and trying to use PayPal can be very hard - hence why we split off all that stuff from MTS2.

I would definately suggest ads though as a revenue stream - most don't require initial payments up front, so I'm not sure where you where looking.

I can definately see how folks can turn this into a "war" and yes, we put no limitations on the use of the tool, but I don't really consider it a war myself - it's more a way of educating people as downloaders, site admins and creators. Yes, it can seem a bit arrogant to post the mission statement as I did, but equally I think it needed to be said.

Unfortunately, sometimes a "shock" value needs to be used to get people to sit up and listen. To see the bigger picture, so to speak. I also realise that many paysite owners aren't entirely happy with this move on the part of one of the biggest sites, but sometimes a small price has to be paid for the bigger picture. If that price is temporary annoyance that later changes into "Well, hang on, why don't we try other things...?", then that's a good thing.

I'd be perfectly happy if, tommorow, TSR or Pandora or Exnem or Peggy or Rose went totally free and where funded purely through voluntary donations and ad revenue. I also realise that in this community, it's very unlikely that the paysites will disappear overnight, but as I've said in other posts, if we can make a change now and educate people and get them to realise it doesn't have to be that way, then maybe for the Sims 3 we'll have a completely free modding community.

I can see that having some donation content is obviously a lot different to other, larger sites, and in the abscence of other means to pay for hosting it can get difficult to stay free. So how about we work together and try and make a difference not just for your own site but as an example to others?

Let me also say thanks for the level headed replies - while we obviously don't agree on all points, at least a dialogue has been opened up and that, I would say, is a great thing.

Regards
Delphy

This may be a little off-topic, but not very much anyway...

It's not the first time that someone notices the "contrast" between my preference for free sites and the fact that the CEP is allowed to be used for creating pay content.
The truth is that the very first versions of the CEP (1 and 2) were the result of the joined efforts of Quaxi, RGiles and myself; I was the "youngest" (in experience) member of the of the team. Since the beginning, I wanted to forbid the usage of the CEP in creating pay content, but Quaxi, which is a wise man, pointed out a risk: if we had put any limitation to the usage of the CEP, some other modding team could have created an "alternative CEP", free to use for everyone. After all, we discussed the working principle of the CEP in a public forum, and every experienced modder could have followed our direction to create "another" CEP. The risk is not over: still today, anyone could very easily clone the CEP, strip away the copyright lines, and offer it as an "alternative" CEP.
Therefore, limiting the usage of the CEP (and - I guess - of the other modding tools) it's just useless.

That said, anyone can understand that I'm not happy if creators of pay content earn money using the CEP (apart and their own skills, of course); I couldn't forbid it, and I can't do it now. I didn't ask for anything in return, but this does not necessarily mean that nothing can be spontaneously offered in return. And before anyone yells "Quoque tu, Brute!", I'm NOT talking about money or anything like that. I'm talking about credits, thanks, and possibly the effort to produce at least some free content, beside the pay content.

I hereby say officially 'Thank You' to all the creators that moved from MTS2 to other sites (paysites) but still upload some of their creations here and offer them for free! People that have sometimes battled against the paysite management (who didn't want them to post anything on other sites, especially MTS2) in order to do that.

Dropping in quickly to say 'applause, applause.' Cool mission statement, thanks for everything.

Yes, dialog is a good thing and most welcome. As such, we would welcome any suggestions and/or help in being able to fund our sites and forum and allow folks to download basically 'free'. And donation is one way that we would be willing to have work for us...as long as we can still guarantee with some degree of certainity that minors are not able to download our files from us very easily. And advertising as a way to fund is interesting as well. So, yes, we will talk. You can count on that.

Numenor. What can I say. I understand and whole heartedly agree that 'thank yous' and kudos should be directed where they are due. If it goes any distance at all, I can assure you that many, many times I have heard folks thank you all in conversation, albeit in your absence. And if it means anything at all right now, I, on behalf of all the folks at MMNT, officially thank you all that are responsible for the files, advice, ideas, & software that have assisted and enabled us all to expand The SIMs for ours and everyone elses pleasure! THANK YOU!!!

Now! About Pandora...can we use a code-word instead of uttering that name?

MIKEY!!!

A lot of code-words come to my mind, but none of them can be written here without being banned...

Mikey, there are many of us "pro-freesites" who are trying to give concrete form to our ideas: many initiatives are growing.
One of them, which you may be interested in, is the Federation of Free Sims Sites, one of which aims is to help sims site owners who want to be free.

You may find infos here: http://www.federation-of-free-sims-sites.org/

No der. Unlike SOMEBODY *coughexnemcough*, this site lets me have frikkin awesome stuff for free! *mutters something about putting Pooh Bear on a paysite and also something about sadisticness *

Actually, Exnem is one of the creators I was referring to, earlier, when I talked about modders that moved to a (partly) paysite but still post something great here at MTS2 for free.

BTW, Exnem has all my sympathy, because his site has been targeted by the infamous "pirate crew" led by Pescado: I definitely favor free sites, but stealing pay content and reposting it for free is the worst thing I've ever seen in the Sims world. No one should rise himself as the Judge of the Good and Bad.

This fansite has given me so very much in terms of the downloads I have used (thousands!), the tutorials, and the few tools such as CEP and Clean Installer I have used thus far. It is the most awesome, content diverse/available website of any type that I have ever encountered. And the fact that it is free - for someone living on a very small fixed income - is nothing less than a major gift.

I have "toyed" with uploading to MTS2 some of my bodyshop skintones, homecrafter walls/floors, or lots built from actual floorplans - but so far lack the "nerve" to present my creations alongside the superior quality of that which I find here..

Thank you for the statement - and I will be sure to spread it around - and I always recommend this site for anything people are looking for...

Thank you for the website!

This site is my homepage, I come here almost everyday.

I have 3 user accounts that all have things from this site (and that's the only common denominator - One is Medieval, one is Modern and one is for things I am creating).

Here there are some wonderful creators - if I am having a stupid moment - okay more like a week. I know I can post my dumb little problem that someone smarter than me may have figured it out in the TS1 days --- don't laugh it wasn't funny when I realized my beautiful texture was only pretty when a sim stood so that I couldn't see the horrible seems (I still have problems with that!!

I do feel the need to respond, yes things have changed in some ways. MtS2 is serving very important functions that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

1). You are teaching people, how to create. I don't know of any other Sims sites who are so actively stirring the cauldron of ideas and information.


2).You are also providing a wonderful place for those people to share their creations and learn by doing.

3). You are also providing a place for these people to share their creations for free. It is one stop shopping:

Someone (a boob) can register to read tutorials and learn all sorts of wonderful things. Create a few things (crash a few games along the way), be shown what they are doing wrong, have help fixing it. Create some things that are quite good and over time become one of the people that as soon as they start in the submission process a moderator is waiting to make it featured.

I'm gonna come out of my little closet, I have uploaded things to TSR (now don't get testy!), but they are also available here. I don't feel that it is fair to take things I have made and make people pay for them, so everything I make is uploaded here. I do this so that I can get a wider range of feedback.


The only reason I upload to TSR is that I am equal oppertunity, everybody here should be able to get anything I may make as well as the sheep at TSR. There are a few wonderful creators at TSR, I still don't know why they don't come over here, it's much more fun!

So cheers to you, without MtS2, my sims would be bland and unplayed.

Oh, I was in a bad mood when I posted that. ANd, well, I'm shocked that someone would do that. I just was thinking of my little brother who likes Pooh Bear and he cried because Mom refused to pay for pixels.

Too much detail? Maybe. But that's my explanation.

I would like to point out that if you have issues paying for your site and your Band width there are other places you can Upload your items with out charging any one. MTS2 has a great adult site as does insim.

If pay site are doing it for "the cost" then remover that problem and upload to a free hosting site. Insim gives sections for ppl to upload their Items and MTS2 gives awards to the top CC on this site. There are many mnay things you can do other then Chagre.

JMHO

This site is so fantastic, you guys are absolutely :lovestruc :lovestruc wonderful.

Delphy, this comment is directly to you since you spoke to us directly. I read your very detailed letter with a lot of interest and agreement. It made me think that maybe I’d submit some clothing recolors to mts2. Well I got accused of SPAM!! Now that is not nice. Here I was in good conscious sending in my stuff and this is what I received? That is just rude! This might have something to do with why so many have left MTS2 and have gone on to start their own websites or went to TSR. It doesn’t bother me if this is removed if you can not handle the truth. I was wrongly accused and that is a fact!

If this indicative of the way people are treated…then no wonder so many have jumped ship.
Thank you
Marilyn

Skystars5, sorry, I'm not Delphy but I'm curious...
Where have you been accused of spam? I mean, in which thread? This one?

skystars5, did you perhaps upload items 1 at a time that were of similar style? Because on this site, we _group_ our uploads. On some sites people post a single item in each thread, but not here, we encourage sets - people only need to see something that says 'men's t shirts' or 'bathroom walls' - they don't need 5-10 threads in a row from the same person.

what about when you have a problem and nobody answers you? What about if you do something suggested in one of the "help" posts, and everything gets screwed up, and the person who posted the "help" doesn't even respond to your message?

This site is great especially for people who want to download stuff, and also for certain kinds of help re game questions, but if no one answers your questions, what good is it?

minonda, it's called having patience. If you have an issue and you post about it, then somebody will come along and offer advice but remember: We are all volunteers and have lives to deal with too.

Perhaps you simply aren't phrasing your questions well enough or perhaps they are already in the FAQ, or perhaps it's something nobody has had so far...

Minonda actually sent me a PM asking (in a quite abrupt manner) what to do seeing as my FAQ had 'ended up screwing up (her) game disc' and she 'had to purchase another in order to play the game'. Not sure what she did, but I know nothing in my FAQs can ruin a game disc... anyway, it seems she wasn't too pleased with the fact that I haven't managed to get on here for a couple of weeks, due to work/ college commitments. At least I think that's what she meant by 'It must be nice to be so important that you can ignore people who have problems because of the directions you gave.' But don't worry, she has assured me that she will 'NEVER try your suggestions again' so that's okay... Maybe I should give her my personal phone number so that she can call me when she has another problem.

simsample -- you have all my sympathy. I often admire the staff here for their patience when dealing with that particular kind of user (whiny, demanding brats in my opinion, who seem to think it's cool to treat others like their personal servants). I'm *very* grateful that those FAQ's and the Help section exist and that they're maintained so well. Thanks for your work!

I just wanted to say this,

I've been a member for 6 months or so. I'd only started playing the game a little bit before that and for whatever reason the first site I ended up on was TSR thinking it was "official", "best downloads" etc, you've just got to look at their starter page. Very quickly I found MTS and other free or part free sites and I have never looked back. I have been a very quiet member of this community up until now (and I probably still will be) but if it weren't for this site I would never have thought that it was possible for me to create anything for the game. There are no other tutorials out there of this quality or staff ready to help a newbie (which I still am) with patience and understanding. I did pay for content at the beginning, I now realise that I'd been "had". Long live MTS2 and the philosophy behind it. And a big big thankyou.

I applaud and honor you, Delphy. There are good people here and I appreciate everything that has been done and that will be done. My thanks now and always.
Paden