That's my point though. There aren't two camps. I enjoy both. Sometimes I want to play realistic families and scenarios while other times I enjoy the adding a touch of fantasy etc. I've read that some people only build and I can totally understand because there was a period during the TS2 era I only ever launched the game to build houses. I don't presume you're suggesting they need a separate game as well? My point is that what makes the Sims franchise so popular is that you don't have to alienate any players if the features are well-executed.

A game that only offers to the ultra realistic to me will always be the lesser game in my eyes because with The Sims I can have both. So I'm not forced to play any one way. Of course it would be interesting to see what would happen if either Mike or any other team of developers would ever be as successful as The Sims franchise by going down that route.

I'm not saying anyone would be the highest authority, but if anyone is going to have some thoughts on how to handle something like that in a way that is not offensive, well, might be good to ask people who deal with those sort of issues on a daily basis, y'know? And if it's not something you're particular familiar with yourself, it can be easy to do something you think is sensitive or innocuous, but is actually pretty offensive.

'Course, I don't think it's a great idea in general and like Inge, I would rather see it be a life simulation, but the idea of some sort of sims-like sci-fi thing would be kinda neat too, so... *shrug* The idea of it being sims-but-genderless is just weird to me, though, and I don't think it'll accomplish anything but being confusing. I wouldn't mind seeing gender as a slider though, as I really wanted for TS4, so you could have someone who looks more feminine but is still more toward the male end of the spectrum, etc.

But you've just proved my point. I don't think I CAN have realistic with the sims as it is. It's not realistic. It is not a game on top of a simulation, it's primarily a game with some appearance of simulation tagged on top. The action doesn't come from the sims' artificial awareness, it comes from the game, then the sim acts as if it wanted to do the stuff after it's already been told to do it by the game task.

To be a simulation the sims interactions should be driven by their mnotives - which by now, 12 years after inception, should be more than just their bladders and stomachs. By now they should also understand and calculate the need to drive social and financial status, making party controllers and carpool pushes unnecessary.

Now I don't necessarily have a problem with a mid-autonomy setting which shows these motives as wants the player has to agree to, as long as the wants make sense and as long as the sim would know enough about those wants to fulfil them himself on the top autonomy setting.

It's not the sims though. If you get my drift. It would be a life simulation about genderless puppets. I was thinking in much more abstract terms. For example the gender slider you're talking about would be more complicated since there are distinctions based on gender and where they are on that spectrum. While here there simply won't be such a thing as gender. So you could have an avatar with feminine features with facial hair for example.

Which brings me to another point. Do we know how detailed the avatar creator is? Because depending on that these are all problems that won't arise at all. I'm not sure if Mike is familiar with Tinkatolli but those are genderless humanoids. Of course these are also extremely cartoony which is why they work very well. It isn't offensive because of how the avatar maker is set up.

So let's say you open the avatar maker there's only the one body type. So the next choice would be the face. Let's say you can edit the face is detail, shaping it the way you like. Now you can choose to add facial hair, accessories and maybe even make-up. Now you can choose the clothes. You can choose robes, shorts, pants, skirts etc. So in theory you can create a character that looks like a flat chested human woman would look like or a rather hairy male to a a woman with facial hair and everything in between. So what they look wouldn't matter much since there are no genders.

So the only thing that would make them truly different would be their personality/traits/skills etc. So there's no distinction based on gender which shouldn't offend anyone. It would be a lot easier to have genders though if he's going for a more realistic approach. I'm not sure how in depth the game will be. Will the avatars be capable of reproducing? Is he planning on introducing genetics etc.? Personally I think depending what aspect of life the simulation is focused on, the genderless humanoids approach could very well work.

If we're going to allow for making babies between any two parents - parent1 and parent2 rather than insist on current biological reality (and why not, seeing as I feel sure it is already technically possible) then yes you don't need two gender lines at all. With sliders, those who want to emulate two separate genders can use the height, breast and voice sliders to make creatures who they will look, sound, and breed as if they were standard men and women. Others of us can use them to make short men with moobs and flat chested women with deep voices - or even identical hermaphrodites - if we want. It will be up to each player to decide whether a sim will be thought of by them as having a gender for the purpose of their own gamestory, just like we make all sorts of other arbitrary decisions for how our sims will fare.

I think we mean different things when we're talking about realism. When I was talking about realism I was referring to the people that have a problem with the more "fantasy" side of the game. Vampires, sci-fi, objects that don't really exist in the real world and that sort of stuff.

I agree that the sims should be driven by their motives and make their own decisions rather than the objects in the game advertising themselves to the sims. But what you're saying sounds too much to my like the game is playing itself. I might as well watch TV in that case. What exactly do you mean by being driven by financial status? I would like the sims to be smart enough to not kill themselves if I happen to look away for more than 10 seconds but I don't want to sit there hands crossed looking at my screen as my sims live their own lives.

See, I do like that aspect. If I set one person as a gym enthusiast, I want to take a hands-off approach, and watch that persom do fitness stuff. Same with a criminal. The criminal should be up to no good in his spare time. Likewise with the romeo. For me, this is the very essence of the game. I want to see this stuff, and to be able to switch between them at will.

The Sims are trait-driven like that already. They just aren't very intelligent about it. Athletic Sims, when left alone, will autonomously start working out. The problem is, they do that no matter where they are: in a disco, at someone's wedding party, or when they are really hungry and should instead be looking for something to eat. I'd like to see them be more intelligent about context, to be aware of their traits or preferences and behave accordingly, but also be aware of their needs, and their current context, where they are, who they are with, what the their situation is.

Thats cos you want it to be a game. I want a simulation. The bit I want my hands on is the bit where I give them their context - their resources - and see what they do with it. That to me is a real God Game. See how the people you created play with the hand you dealt them. And at any time if you feel like it, you can dive in and order them to do something different from what they were going to do by choice, or snatch away something they were hoping to use. Or deliver some bad fortune or something.

I personally don't like the idea of genderless sims. I think it would be great to have the freedom to make sims look like the opposite gender, but I prefer there to be a genetic gender. I actually like that in real life, we have a variation of sexual orientations, and you can't have sexual orientations without genders. I suppose I could keep track of who is straight and LGBT in my head, but I'd personally prefer it to be in the game mechanics so I can say objectively, "this sim is straight", "this sim is gay", "this sim is transgendered", etc.

I do think it would be great like the Saints Row 3 game if clothing is gender neutral.

But wouldn't it be better even irl not to have genders set at conception? I mean no more distress while a person with the wrong body for their gender identity waits to be granted their new body etc etc. Heck why do we even need to declare our genders at all to anyone but our doctors, so that they know why we have period pains or whatever. Even a partner only really needs to know your gender when you're talking about expectations for a family. Or if he or she particularly favoritises with one orifice over another.

I want it to be a sandbox experience. I want freedom, I want choice. If it were up to me you'd be able to play it your way, as in your sims do everything on their own and I'll be able to play it my way as in I'll get to rule every aspect of the game. Or maybe I'll just throw some random sims together or see what happens, or I'll just build neat structures. I think what you want is a lot more narrow concept of a game/simulation. What I want is a "toy" which will be whatever I as a player want it to be. This is what attracted me to The Sims franchise.

So for example, for you building tools wouldn't be much a priority I take it? And I take it you wouldn't be interested in content that would help with storytelling? The game would be purely a simulation about simulating little people dealing with their environment? So a lot more Sim City-ish but with sims? I can imagine you'd be more interested in making a family of 4 and a family of a couple without any children and see how they would fair trying to climb the socio-economic ladder. While I'd be more interested in playing those families stories. Like how they met and got married and how the children get along with each other etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Either way works for me, tbh. It would definitely be interesting to have a game that doesn't have a gender preset yet has realistic looking humans.

Oh no! That's a major part of handing a sim their circumstances. Saying "here is your house, he is your town, let's see how it suits the way you like to live" is all part of the experiment .

As much as I appreciate your ambitious "I have a dream" speech, this contradicts the realism you've been pushing for in your previous posts. You can't have your ideal genderless society and still call it a realistic life simulation.

The Sims has already found the sweet spot. All actions are available to both genders (e.g. leap into arms, find a job, serve dinner, etc.) and sex-induced pregnancy is only available to females in an unmodded game for obvious reasons. Besides the gender-specific clothing in CAS and job titles (e.g. waiter, waitress), the Sims games are practically gender-free.

There is no need to get rid of gender entirely. If you're going to call it a life simulation game, it has to resemble real life.

It'd be different if it were a life simulation about aliens, which I wouldn't be interested in.

Lol it's ok I have nothing against the two gender system - it won't spoil my enjoyment of the game .

Then don't push for a genderless system because that would spoil my enjoyment of the game.

I would rather have all clothes available to both genders instead of getting rid of genders entirely.

Ok thats informed me a bit better on what is expected in the game on those lines.

Genders it is!

Mike

I'm not sure I can agree that it would be better irl to be born genderless. I like the variety of different sexual orientations of real life, much like I appreciate that we are different races and cultural backgrounds. I find inspiration in real life when I make sims, so I like to give them real-life traits like sexual orientation and even distinctly real-life races and cultural backgrounds (Russian, Chinese, British, Chilean, etc). I don't think I would like it if people were genderless and unisex any more than I would like it if everyone were the same race and culture.

Fair enough. So let's petition God for 3 or 4 genders, any two of which can breed together, as long as it is two different genders. But doesn't that make it grossly unfair on gay people still? Hmm... ok then free breeding with different or same gender- just different methods depending on body shape and genital positioning. Now that WOULD be variety .

If you want a realistic life simulation, why wouldn't you want the game to reflect major aspects of real life?

Two people of the same gender not being able to reproduce is not discrimination, it's human biology. It may seem unfair, but it's a part of life. Like blonde hair being easier to color, African hair being difficult to style (if you're trying to go for straight and glossy), certain Asian hairstyles requiring beauty products to get more volume, some Irish skin being more prone to sunburn, men being more likely to grow beards, breasts on women, etc.

It's a part of life.

Besides, a modded Sims 2 game already allows same-sex and male pregnancies. Can't we just let La Vida be its more realistic cousin?

That may be, but real-life gender isn't a two-state system.

Splainy?

In real life, gender isn't "male" or "female". There's a whole range there - most of which is close enough to one side for the person to fit into the label (tomboys, camp men etc), but then you could also be androgynous, genderless, genderqueer, transgender, fluid, etc. etc...

The videogame industry has always been very conservative (cf level of sexism and racism in the bloody 21st century, and gay relationships only just starting to appear in games) - I think it would be very very awesome if a game took into account the whole range of genders, although without catering specially for every single possibility. It might start to prove that we gamers are less of a bunch of closed-minded mouthbreathers than we have a reputation for being.

Androgynous and transgendered and fluid individuals can still be represented if clothing was not gender-specific (i.e. every item available to both male and female characters).

Saints Row does that (at least the third and fourth do)